9 replies to this topic

[Junk Master]

Now that I'm past 40 I find it takes me much longer to recover from hard workouts or long runs. The delayed onset muscle soreness often lasts two to three days after a workout. I don't like the idea of relying on Naproxen, or Ibuprofen, especially as I age; so, are there any effective supplements to mitigate muscle soreness?

I already take whey, intermittent anti-oxidants, and have experimented with c60/00; which was promising but didn't seem to have the same efficacy upon repeated dosing. I've also taken resveratrol in the past, and while it was somewhat effective in increasing endurance, it didn't do much for muscle soreness.

What about high doses of curcumin?

[jadamgo]

I'm surprised NSAIDs work for your DOMS. For many people (myself included), there's simply no relief at all unless you're willing to go back to the gym and lift at half-normal or two-thirds-normal weights to get the exercise-induced analgesia going.

As for supplements, there's always magnesium. Oral, as magnesium threonate for any muscle spasms, or topical, as a hot, strong magnesium sulfate bath.

...Yeah, I know it's stretching it to call epsom salt baths "supplements." But it's the best I can offer you.

[zorba990]

BCAA .http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22569039
From personal experience high dose vitamin c (4 grams lyposomal) but pubmed seems to disagree so your mileage may vary.

[mustardseed41]

Topical DMSO......Emu oil works also

Edited by mustardseed41, 28 January 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[chung_pao]

High Glutamine and BCAAs, megadoses of vitamin C (look into that one before trying anything).
Take 10g glutamine and some BCAAs per dose and divide 5-8 doses during the entire day.

You don't want to take NSAIDs post-workout. They inhibits protein-synthesis and the actual benefit of your exercise.

The DOMS is an indicator of muscle damage and/or inflammatory mechanisms.
Ibuprofen will remove DOMS by ruining your muscle's recovery processes.

To alleviate doms, you need to heal the muscle; this is where Glutamine and BCAAs come in.

[BioFreak]

Your antioxidant status may simply be fucked up due to age. When I was low in antioxidants (low gluthatione from high dose tyrosine/5-htp) I would get muscle soreness from anything, while a few years back it was even hard for me to get it!

Long story short -> I added cysteine and n-acetyl-cysteine(nac), and everything was reversed. There are studies about nac and selenium a) improving testosterone and b) improving the anabolic stimulus of a protein meal in people with reduced antioxidant status due to age, works like a charm. Try 500mg nach 3x / day , and 200-400mcg selenium and see if it helps. if not, add up to 4500mg cysteine/day, divided in 3 doses if I remember right. not more though.

Also adding leucine or bcaas to protein shakes helps... but I would first check the antioxidants. Remember with NAC you are boosting glutathione, one of the bodies strongest antioxidants, much stronger then most antioxidants on the market.

[nowayout]

I'm surprised NSAIDs work for your DOMS. For many people (myself included), there's simply no relief at all unless you're willing to go back to the gym and lift at half-normal or two-thirds-normal weights to get the exercise-induced analgesia going.

As for supplements, there's always magnesium. Oral, as magnesium threonate for any muscle spasms, or topical, as a hot, strong magnesium sulfate bath.

...Yeah, I know it's stretching it to call epsom salt baths "supplements." But it's the best I can offer you.

Yes, I also find that exercising the same muscles just lightly a couple of days after helps a lot to get rid of doms.

Also, taking an nsaid like ibuprofen right after the workout is IME more effective at mitigating or preventing later DOMS than waiting two days until the onset of doms.

[zm3thod]

I couldn't find the specific study I remembered, but these three have some information:

The reader will note that selected treatments such as anti-inflammatory drugs and antioxidants appear to have a potential in the treatment of DOMS.

→ source (external link)

The results of this study reveal that intake of ibuprofen can decrease muscle soreness induced after eccentric exercise but cannot assist in restoring muscle function.

→ source (external link)

Based on current evidence, there is little reason to believe that the occasional use of NSAIDs will negatively affect muscle growth, although the efficacy for their use in alleviating inflammatory symptoms remains questionable. Evidence on the hypertrophic effects of the chronic use of NSAIDs is less clear. In those who are untrained, it does not appear that regular NSAID use will impede growth in the short term, and at least one study indicates that it may in fact have a positive impact. Given their reported impairment of satellite cell activity, however, longer-term NSAID use may well be detrimental, particularly in those who possess greater growth potential.

→ source (external link)

Edited by zm3thod, 17 February 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[nowayout]

You don't want to take NSAIDs post-workout. They inhibits protein-synthesis and the actual benefit of your exercise.

The DOMS is an indicator of muscle damage and/or inflammatory mechanisms.
Ibuprofen will remove DOMS by ruining your muscle's recovery processes.

Newer research has has subsequently cast doubt on the claims you mention, especially in older people.

http://www.t-nation....r_muscle_growth

Follow-up human trials failed to replicate the initial human findings. Studies on both young and elderly subjects using selective and non-selective COX inhibitors alike showed no differences in protein synthesis (4, 11, 15).

If these findings aren't confusing enough, consider that several recent studies have investigated the long-term effects of NSAID administration on muscle growth in humans. None of these studies found a negative effect on muscle hypertrophy (8, 14, 20).

In fact, one of them showed that NSAIDs actually increased muscle hypertrophy by approximately 50% (20). You heard right, the group popping painkillers doubled their muscular gains!

4. Burd, NA, Dickinson, JM, Lemoine, JK, Carroll, CC, Sullivan, BE, Haus, JM, Jemiolo, B, Trappe, SW, Hughes, GM, Sanders, CE,Jr, and Trappe, TA. Effect of a cyclooxygenase-2 inhibitor on postexercise muscle protein synthesis in humans. Am. J. Physiol. Endocrinol. Metab. 298: E354-61, 2010.

8. Krentz, JR, Quest, B, Farthing, JP, Quest, DW, and Chilibeck, PD. The effects of ibuprofen on muscle hypertrophy, strength, and soreness during resistance training. Appl. Physiol. Nutr. Metab. 33: 470-475, 2008.

11. Mikkelsen, UR, Schjerling, P, Helmark, IC, Reitelseder, S, Holm, L, Skovgaard, D, Langberg, H, Kjaer, M, and Heinemeier, KM. Local NSAID infusion does not affect protein synthesis and gene expression in human muscle after eccentric exercise. Scand. J. Med. Sci. Sports 21: 630-644, 2011.

14. Petersen, SG, Beyer, N, Hansen, M, Holm, L, Aagaard, P, Mackey, AL, and Kjaer, M. Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug or glucosamine reduced pain and improved muscle strength with resistance training in a randomized controlled trial of knee osteoarthritis patients. Arch. Phys. Med. Rehabil. 92: 1185-1193, 2011.

15. Petersen, SG, Miller, BF, Hansen, M, Kjaer, M, and Holm, L. Exercise and NSAIDs: effect on muscle protein synthesis in patients with knee osteoarthritis. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 43: 425-431, 2011.

20. Trappe, TA, Carroll, CC, Dickinson, JM, LeMoine, JK, Haus, JM, Sullivan, BE, Lee, JD, Jemiolo, B, Weinheimer, EM, and Hollon, CJ. Influence of acetaminophen and ibuprofen on skeletal muscle adaptations to resistance exercise in older adults. Am. J. Physiol. Regul. Integr. Comp. Physiol. 300: R655-62, 2011.

That page also has some negative studies regarding satellite cell inhibition by NSAIDs, but the significance of that is unclear since they did not measure actual hypertrophy results. In any case, the picture is not as simple as you stated.

If I had to make any claim, I would say that the effect can be either positive or negative depending on the person. NSAIDs certainly have the potential to help at least some people. Maybe a given 20 year old might not see benefit, but possibly a 40 year old who gets excessive DOMS might get significant benefit.

This idea that the body always knows just how much inflammation is optimal is not well supported - in fact many conditions in otherwise healthy people are caused by excessive inflammation, sometimes (as for example in the case of asthma, sepsis, etc.) to the point of killing the body. I am convinced that some people just get excessive DOMS for whatever reason. (Just one example could be low testosterone in older people, given that testosterone itself acts as an anti-inflammatory.)

Edited by viveutvivas, 17 February 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[stephen_b]

Wobenzym N (3-6 tablets on an empty stomach works great for me). 6 g of MSM works great too. I ran a trail 50k last summer and had a slowish 8+ hour finish time. 6g of MSM knocked 80% of the soreness out. I like to dose the MSM right after a particularly big effort like that, refuel, and then take Wobenzym N at night away from foods. MSM seems to help recovery, but it seems like wobenzym affects the root cause of soreness more as its effects don't fade quite so much like MSM's do.