12 replies to this topic

[Al Fizya]

Sorry for the long post, I'd be extremely grateful for anyone's attention and advice.

I'm a 22-year old undergraduate studying Mathematics at Oxford University and I've been looking to boost my brain power in order to maximize my achievements. I don't drink, have a normal diet, weigh <60kg and am 5'8".

I'm reasonable intelligent but, since my late teens, I've always thought myself to have a very short attention span and a clouded mind. This was damaging my academic career so I decided to take my brain's chemistry into my own hands by taking nootropics.

I started taking Piracetam with Choline Bitartrate about 3 months ago. I varied my stack a lot but, on average, I took 2.4g of Piracetam with 1g of Choline in 3 daily doses.

The main difference I initially noticed was that I was inclined to listen to music and sing a lot more. After a few weeks I noticed some subtle, but significant, nootropic benefits. I was able to focus for greater lengths of time, less easily distracted and less clouded thoughts. Piracetam also provides surges of motivation. This is important because I previously wasn't willing to work hard enough to achieve what I wanted to achieve.

Furthermore, I agree with the common anecdote of increased creativity, mood and energy. I did not, however, notice more vivid colours or enhanced sounds, as people often report.

Piracetam has been good but not, in itself, life changing. Also, it made me more inclined to socialize, which would sometimes distract me from work.

After a couple of months, I ordered in some Pramiracetam. I wanted a nootropic that'd make me an academic beast and, having read research and anecdotal reports, I though this might do the job.

I didn't feel anything in the first 4 days but it wasn't long until I felt the incredible surges of motivation, long bouts of concentration, greater comprehension and memorization that are associated with Pram. However, this'd only work when I took Pramiracetam on an empty stomach (dissolved in oil). I became convinced that nootropics don't work on a full stomach. In fact, I felt as if the effects were wearing off as soon as I ate a meal. This resulted in a lot of fasting and coffee alongside my stack.

I continued like this for a couple of weeks, taking doses of ~300mg, 3 times a day with the same Piracetam regimen.

I learnt a lot in those few weeks and did well in exams.

I don't know, in hindsight, whether my claim of taking nootropics on an empty stomach was justified or not but I knew that wasn't a sustainable regimen.

I experimented further in the coming weeks but my regimen stopped working for some reason. I fiddled with my choline intake and diet before I realized that doses of ~300mg of Pram weren't enough anymore. I took 600mg one day and suddenly felt deeply focused on my work, I did not get distracted for hours. I didn't feel the need to take a break or socialize, it was incredible.

Also, it didn't really matter whether I took it with food or not.

This was unlike before and I realized that the effects I felt before may have just been Piracetam and only now was I feeling the Pramiracetam effects.

I tried taking 600mg 3 times a day. It made my morning extremely productives and lectures much more worthwhile. My second dose (after lunch) allowed me to get a lot of work done in the afternoons but around dinnertime, I'd fall asleep (regardless of coffee).

I also stopped taking Piracetam because the creative surges were an unnecessary distraction from my work.

Also, I noticed an amazing change of vision, the clarity and vivideness I had heard about.

I continued like this for a week and it was brilliant until I fell fast asleep at 6pm. This is extremely counter-productive and I'm trying to figure out what's happening.

I had a theory that I became sensitized to Pramiracetam so the doses required to get significant results were now smaller. I've been testing out doses of 150mg-400mg. Either they're too small to have an effect or they induce sleepiness or tiredness. Morning doses of 250-600mg sometimes have a positive effect but the second dose doesn't.

I'm currently stopping the second dose.

I tried upping the choline to 3x1g doses but I think it was making me depressed. I've switched to CDP-Choline/Citicoline in the past few days and I think it's having a positive effect.

Piracetam still works when I take it but I'd rather take only Pramiracetam.

Sometimes, even small doses of Pram only serve to make me tired, perhaps taking a break would help? I have tried taking small breaks but they don't seem to help.

Perhaps there is a sweet spot between 150 and 600mg that makes me focused and not tired? Perhaps I should only dose once a day? I'm still experimenting with this so I might yet resolve the issue, I'd appreciate any dosage recommendations.

I wonder if the problem was choline bitartrate and the problems will subside, now that I've switched to CDP?

My problem seems unlike anecdotal reports/logs I've read.

People seem to be able to get consistent results from a particular dose and I've never heard of Pram ceasing to work for anyone?

My workload is intense and I'd really like to recover the positive effects of Pramiracetam and get them consistently throughout the day.

I'd appreciate any advice.

[Isochroma]

Stop all caffeine and alcohol - they are the cause of racetams 'not working' or 'losing effect'.

The caffeine is causing you adrenal fatigue/exhaustion and because of that the racetams are wearing your body down and losing effect.

Until you stop depleting your body with caffeine you will never be able to maintain a good effect from any racetam.

[lifebuddy]

Isochroma -- excellent advice. I don't agree 100% with the claim that the caffeine and alcohol stop the effects of racetams. However, I do feel that the cycle of fatigue caused by daily caffeine (limited duration, overly generalized stimulation) is a big problem. Alcohol is not always bad. Depends on the quantity and frequency.

[Al Fizya]

Hmm, interesting reply. I always thought caffeine has a synergistic effect with the racetams? I do drink around 3 cups of coffee a day, I should cut down. I don't drink alcohol at all.

Isochroma, do you have any clinical research supporting the claim that caffeine or alcohol cause racetams to lose their effect? Anecdotal evidence would be appreciated too.

[leftside]

I also recommend cutting down the caffeine. It is a strong stimulant and you could be tiring out your brain. Just give it a try. Don't go cold turkey though! Start the first week with 2 cups of coffee, then the second week with 1 cup of coffee. Maybe you don't need to cut it out together, but reserve it for the days you need an extra boost.

[Isochroma]

Just do it instead of making excuses.

I have unsubscribed from this thread as I have no other advise and am not interested in getting into an argument with caffeine addicts or alcohol addicts.

Both are depleting drugs.

When your boat is sinking you throw overboard the weights - including all toxic and depleting agents.

You keep throwing crap overboard until the boat stops sinking, that's the procedure.

You don't stand in your sinking boat with water around your heels asking for 'proof' or 'studies' that lead weights sink boats.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 28 January 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[gray.bot]

I had a theory that I became sensitized to Pramiracetam so the doses required to get significant results were now smaller.

I have found this too. Commonly referred to an attack dose, larger amounts in the beginning of taking racetams will produce marked effects. After you are adjusted, drop back the dose to standard and you'll get good effects.

Regarding the losing effects issue, I'm throwing it out there that it is psychological. I found intially when I was taking nootropics I'd get a 'holy omg Im super creative this stuff is AWESOME!!!' feeling. After time, it dropped back to a more 'I am subtly awesome in the background' feeling.

Because I was expecting the mind-blowing awesomeness I thought they stopped working but they didnt. Actually they were still working I was just adjusted to the new improved level.

Here's a tip/advice (because you asked for it): Get addicted to being super creative, alert, focused and having a great memory just 'normal'. Then no matter any nootropics you take you'll feel the 'hey, I am super better now I can really feel it' feeling...

Re the below posts, I actually think you are all right:

Stop all caffeine and alcohol - they are the cause of racetams 'not working' or 'losing effect'.

The caffeine is causing you adrenal fatigue/exhaustion and because of that the racetams are wearing your body down and losing effect.

Until you stop depleting your body with caffeine you will never be able to maintain a good effect from any racetam.

1 - I think yes if you are already overstimulated and adrenal fatigued yes the caffeine will lower the effects of racetams due to what you've described, the racetams just being another thing that is over taking the body.

*pretty much you are saying, stop depleting your body with caffeine to get better effects of racetams at the moment, for this user!

Isochroma -- excellent advice. I don't agree 100% with the claim that the caffeine and alcohol stop the effects of racetams. However, I do feel that the cycle of fatigue caused by daily caffeine (limited duration, overly generalized stimulation) is a big problem. Alcohol is not always bad. Depends on the quantity and frequency.

2 - I think yes if you are overstimulated from caffeine and adrenals are fatigued still racetams effects will be pronounced and actually have some effect.

*pretty much you are saying, stop depleting your body with caffeine to get better effects of racetams at the moment, for this user!

Hmm, interesting reply. I always thought caffeine has a synergistic effect with the racetams? I do drink around 3 cups of coffee a day, I should cut down. I don't drink alcohol at all.

Isochroma, do you have any clinical research supporting the claim that caffeine or alcohol cause racetams to lose their effect? Anecdotal evidence would be appreciated too.

3 - I think yes if you are super healthy, have recharged adrenals and are close to a good homestatis level, yes a blast of caffeine with totally improve all your functions and will so awesomely synergise with racetams like crazy.

I also recommend cutting down the caffeine. It is a strong stimulant and you could be tiring out your brain. Just give it a try. Don't go cold turkey though! Start the first week with 2 cups of coffee, then the second week with 1 cup of coffee. Maybe you don't need to cut it out together, but reserve it for the days you need an extra boost.

*pretty much you are saying, stop depleting your body with caffeine to get better effects of racetams at the moment, for this user!

Me is going to drink caffeine and racetams because this post has made me hungry for them! ><

[Gorthaur]

I had a similar experience when I started on piracetam. For about three months, the effects were phenomenal, but then I slowly started to develop brain fog and extreme fatigue. I've spent two years trying to figure out how to make piracetam work again, but the only surefire solution is to stop taking it for a few months. But even when I start up again, the effects only last a couple weeks. Varying your dosage of racetams and choline is unlikely to help, but it could be worth trying a lower dose of choline, as choline can really slow you down. I second the above suggestions regarding adrenal fatigue. Combining racetams and caffeine works great for a while, then you crash hard - for weeks or even months. Many on Longecity believe that racetam tolerance is due to depletion of aldosterone (and/or cortisol), which is produced by the adrenal glands. Supplemental aldosterone is the only thing I haven't tried yet, but I fear that racetam tolerance is more complicated than any of us have the capacity to address at this time. So far I've tried:
-L-Glutamic acid (may delay tolerance slightly, but it won't fix your problem)
-Schizandra (for adrenal support - causes terrible insomnia)
-Pregnenolone (a precursor to aldosterone, but not a very efficient way to supplement aldosterone - gave me terrible irritability from all the cortisol)
-Different racetams - oxiracetam, aniracetam, pramiracetam, coluracetam (no effect on tolerance)
-Different choline sources - alpha GPC, choline bitartrate, CDP Choline (no effect on tolerance)
-More/less caffeine (no effect on tolerance)

[BioFreak]

Piracetam seems to increase dopamine, at least in animals. This could, in theory, lead to long term depletion of all catecholamines. And this would explain the problems with focus and concentration (low dopamine) and the tiredness (low noradrenaline, adrenaline).

So why not try to increase catecholamines and report back? If they are high enough, you won't need caffeine anymore too. In fact, while having a good short term effect, it just makes the problem worse, by allowing the brain to stay active longer, and needing more neurotransmitters to work properly. Same rule applies, catecholamines get depleted.

[Al Fizya]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

In case anyone's interested in my current status with nootropics:
I've actually increased my Pramiracetam dosage to 750mg dose once a day with 3 x 1.6g Piracetam, it's actually working really well, getting lots of work done.
I'm trying to replace caffeine with sulbutiamine, nothing to report yet.

I'd like some choline related advice. I've recently bought ALCAR for it's cholinergenic and anti-oxidants effects. Tell me, can ALCAR replace other choline sources? (I've been playing around with Bitartrate and CDP) or should it be taken in addition to choline sources? Should I take it with the racetams or a few hours after/ if I get headache?

Also, I tend to take all this right after breakfast:
- 750mg Pramiracetam
- 1600mg Piracetam
- 500mg ALCAR
- 1000mg fish oil

However, ALCAR and Piracetam do supposedly work better on an empty stomach. Should I take these an hour before breakfast instead?
I want to get the maximum benefits from nootropics and they do seem more potent on an empty stomach but perhaps this is also results in the effects wearing off faster?
I also tend to find the effect of nootropics (taken several hours before) wear off right after a heavy meal.
I'm thinking that I should probably stick to taking them right after food, what do you guys think?

[psychedelisimo]

How is the ALCAR with the pramiracetam and piracetam working out? i'm actually about to begin this stack now

[Stormy]

Huh, I've never had any issues stacking caffeine with racetams. IME you adjust to the long-term effects of the racetams so you don't notice them anymore until you stop taking the racetams (I ran out of Oxi at one point, and couldn't figure out why my thoughts seemed so slow. Ran out of Pram at one point as well and found myself battling brain fog that had at one point been normal for me, but had been out of sight and mind since I'd begun taking the Pram on a regular basis). That being said, racetams affect people differently, so some people could definitely have problems with a caffeine\racetam stack while others wouldn't at all, but for whatever it's worth from the anecdata department, I've been using a daily Pram+Oxi stack, with great success, for well over a year now while being a veritable caffeine junkie.

If the Pram is knocking you out (it made me spacy and sleepy at first too when I was initially adjusting to it), try taking it before bed. You should still get the long-term, cumulative effects from taking it on a daily basis, regardless of what time of day you take it.

Edited by Stormy, 24 May 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[noootropics]

The caffeine racetam reaction is quite interesting I find that it generally help to knock the cobwebs out of my brain and perhaps slightly enhance the effect of the racetams, if tis hasnt been suggest already try it with L-theanine, makes a huge difference its like taking all the benefits of the caffeine without the anxiety, jitters etc. Hope you find your ideal stack