21 replies to this topic

[advancedatheist]

Pope 'prayed not to be elected'

[jaydfox]

Well, he wasn't Pope yet when he made the prayer, so I guess he had less pull with the man upstairs, huh?

[justinb]

God doesn't answer prayers.

We invented God, we decide if he/she/it answers us or not.

[th3hegem0n]

definitely a difference between people... those that believe things happen 'for a reason' (typically some sort of faith based, fulfill your destiny crap), those that believe that anything that happened and will happen is completely under their control, and those that just don't care.

[Infernity]

I think that if people believe God is able to do everything, and he's also doing everything, did everything and will do everything- AND that cabalistical the ways of God- it pretty much does answer, since all the unreasonable is among the secrets of God... And the answer is- "we shouldn't know that, so we can't because God won't let us".

Absurd, I mean, how can someone not try to figure out?

Yours
~Infernity

[nihilist]

im sorry, was there a point to all this?

[th3hegem0n]

What was the question?

[Mind]

Marshall Brain does a good job debunking prayer here

[Cyto]

One question I read in another site:

"Why doesn't prayer work like OnStar anymore?"

Gave me some laughs.

[eternaltraveler]

"when did I realize I was God?

Well I was praying one day and I realized I was talking to myself..."

;-)

[Karomesis]

hold on.....I am still holding my stomach from laughing my ass of at the thread topic. Thanks for making my day AdvancedAtheist, I'll be sure to return the favor soon. [thumb] Although I'll be hard pressed to think of something more hilarious. [lol] [lol] [lol]

On a seperate note, God has just announced he really doesn't give a shit about us after all. [tung] And much to the dismay of religious peoples everywhere, we actually have to take responsibility for our own actions and create our own future [:o] [:o]

[john e]

Do you apply every bit of advice that is given to you? What is prayer? Do you understand prayer? What are the spiritual principles that apply to prayer? How do other spiritual principles relate to the principles of prayer? Can we find the answers? Can we understand the answers? Why shouldn’t we combine creationism with evolutionism? Why should we combine evolutionism with creationism? What is the truth?
Love and Best Wishes Always,
~John
For every action there is a scientific/spiritual reason and reaction!

Edited by john e, 24 December 2005 - 06:16 PM.

[jans]

I asked God to help me, and he saved me two years.

In 1987 still in high school of the Soviet occupied Estonia I was in threat of being taken to the soviet military. In great depression, lieing on my bed, i just said: God if you are, then help me! I didn't just get away from the arme, but saw the peaceful revolution of Estonia, graduated from a university in US..... Most missed our and wasted their lives.

I think it is easyer to pray in trouble. True intention matters.

[alexjohnc3]

I asked God to help me, and he saved me two years.

In 1987 still in high school of the Soviet occupied Estonia I was in threat of being taken to the soviet military. In great depression, lieing on my bed, i just said: God if you are, then help me!  I didn't just get away from the arme, but saw the peaceful revolution of Estonia, graduated from a university in US..... Most missed our and wasted their lives.

I think it is easyer to pray in trouble. True intention matters.

I'm almost positive that others who prayed in your circumstances with the same intentions were forced into the soviet military. When something good happens to a religous person they thank God and use it as evidence that God exists and that prays are "heard". When something bad happens to a religous person they say that God was just testing them as evidence of God. Hmm... it seems there's a pattern.

I think that if people believe God is able to do everything, and he's also doing everything, did everything and will do everything- AND that cabalistical the ways of God- it pretty much does answer, since all the unreasonable is among the secrets of God... And the answer is- "we shouldn't know that, so we can't because God won't let us".

Absurd, I mean, how can someone not try to figure out?

Yours
~Infernity

I've thought about the idea of every possibility occuring. It would create a paradox, which cannot happen and therefore your thinking is incorrect. If God has done everything, is doing everything, and will do everything that means that God has, is, and will make me this forum non-existant. You could come back with, "well God made another reality inwhich this forum doesn't, hasn't, and will not exist," but that means God would have made it so this forum exists in the reality in which it doesn't exist. Therefore we have a paradox.

[john e]

Who understands prayer? Does the even the pope fully understand prayer? How do spiritual principles effect the answer to a prayer? How does God's will verses our will effect the result of prayer?

I big mistake that many people make is in trying to understand the Word of God rather than understanding the spiritual principles that his word was written to explain. Who understands how the inspiration and annointing of God works? Who understands the science of God? How does God heal the sick? Why hasn't mankind truly imitate, do as he does?

The answers to all these questions is in true understanding and fellowship with our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ with the help, comfort and the unity of the Holy Spirit with a childlike heart.

~John

[RighteousReason]

I think the best way to prove/disprove (whichever way you want to interpret it) that God answers (or doesn't answer) prayers is to work hard and do your best to make your prayers come true.

I think if you do that you may find yourself pleasantly surprised at the result, regardless of which side of the proof you were taking.

[biggee]

karomesis wrote:

On a seperate note, God has just announced he really doesn't give a shit about us after all.  And much to the dismay of religious peoples everywhere, we actually have to take responsibility for our own actions and create our own future

Ya "it" is just playing with all of the dumb f*ck nuts out there who actually think belief, faith and prayer is going to save thier asses, when in actuality those are the very things that cause most of the BS in this world!

alexjohnc3 wrote

When something good happens to a religous person they thank God and use it as evidence that God exists and that prays are "heard". When something bad happens to a religous person they say that God was just testing them as evidence of God.

Just how really immature and stupid are the god freaks anyway. Reminds me of the boxer who beats someones head in and credits god for it. Get a grip! How much more contradictory can one get. Apparently a whole lot more.... a quick check on the violent past and present history of religion. This is just to frikken stupid to me. The plague of mysticism just gets worse. We are in sheep dip, dudes.... think about it!


john e wrote:

Who understands prayer? Does the even the pope fully understand prayer? How do spiritual principles effect the answer to a prayer? How does God's will verses our will effect the result of prayer?

Pure and simple deception. That is disgusting to think someone actually demands so little of themselves to not even question such ridiculous ideas without any scientific basis. We came out of the dark ages a long time ago, but for some reason the majority still cling to the destructive mysticisms and myths.

I big mistake that many people make is in trying to understand the Word of God rather than understanding the spiritual principles that his word was written to explain. Who understands how the inspiration and annointing of God works? Who understands the science of God? How does God heal the sick? Why hasn't mankind truly imitate, do as he does?

Get a real life would ya. We have no time on this planet to think in terms of god or some exterior savior. We are the savior and we are the destroyer. Depends on what side you take. As karomesis wrote, "And much to the dismay of religious peoples everywhere, we actually have to take responsibility for our own actions and create our own future". Do you not have any idea how truly acurate those words are?

The answers to all these questions is in true understanding and fellowship with our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ with the help, comfort and the unity of the Holy Spirit with a childlike heart.

That is pretty fluffy, dude. Nice try but it is now the time to grow up, not become as a child to be guided, milked and drained!

[krexent]

Just how really immature and stupid are the god freaks anyway. Reminds me of the boxer who beats someones head in and credits god for it. Get a grip! How much more contradictory can one get. Apparently a whole lot more.... a quick check on the violent past and present history of religion. This is just to frikken stupid to me. The plague of mysticism just gets worse. We are in sheep dip, dudes.... think about it!

I am quoting this portion of your text only, as for the most part the other parts of it were reiterating very similar feelings/thoughts. The most clear message from your post is a very strong sense of anger, and perhaps pity towards those who believe in a god or in any beliefs you deem to be unscientific.

Clearly you have a very strong emotional attachment to your own personal beliefs and a respect of others beliefs is not a part of your beliefs. From my own experiences I therefore cannot expect to influence your own beliefs greatly, but I hope to open your mind to a different perspective. My motivation in this is to possibly relieve you of some of the anger and to reduce your desire to hurt those of different belief systems.

That being said, consider the following philosophy. Truth, be it scientifically gained or nonscientifically (imagined, spoken or written by a trusted source, felt, etc.) differs between individuals. Acceptance of anything as true or untrue is dependent on an underlying belief structure that we do not entirely choose, although we may learn to change it. Religion in general seeks to teach truth, but in a very guided manner. Accepting the "truth" as taught by most religions leads to certain effects. Depending on the religion and the predispositions of the individual, their own experiences and desires, these effects can be quite different.

This is equally true of any non-religous system of belief. You for example believe in the truth of certain things such as the scientific method, your senses, your memories, etc. The "truth" you have gained through this system of belief can lead to any number of effects upon you, depending on who you are and what you desire.

If for example you have lived a life in which you have been hurt by many others and the only way you have gained happiness is through becoming more powerful than your enemies and in defeating them, you are likely to associate happiness with violence or abuse of others. If you have been treated poorly by those who are very different from you in appearance or beliefs, you may have fear or anger towards people you see as "different". This is true regardless of whether you spend your time contemplating the nature of god or the nature of human neurobiology. You will have a desire and a tendency to seek pleasure and happiness and you will rationalize those actions that lead to such pleasure. Depending on your belief system you will rationalize it in different ways. For example, you might think, 'I am genetically dissimilar to this person who opposes me. They are competing for my resources, and based on the theory of evolution I have a right to seek to further my own genome at the expense of theres. I therefore have a right to harm them to achieve my goals.' You could also justify your desire to hurt someone based on your religious beliefs. For example, if you believe a certain individual is a prophet and he tells you it is okay and in fact encourages you to kill those who are of a different belief system, you can do so without any remorse. Since you already wish to hurt others you now have a justification to do so.

On the other hand if you are a loving person and see that causing happiness in others will return to you even greater happiness, you may focus on beliefs that justify acting towards others in a loving manner.

My point in this is that religion, science, or anything in which we choose to believe in the "truth" of cannot force us into a course of action. It is often used to justify an action, but it is our nature and our desires and our will that ultimately control our behavior. You can look into religion and see whatever it is you wish... it can be a source of incredible comfort, love, and community. It can provide safety, happiness, and certainty. It can also be a source of fear, hatred, and a sense of self-righteous superiority.

Ultimately we all have different values. Truth, or the achievment of understanding is one apparently that is of importance to you. I, on the other hand, find happiness far more important. If belief in a god or a religion allows you to be happy, or if belief in science and scientific knoweldge allows you to be happy, then to me they are both of value. I once also felt truth to be of the greatest importance, but upon seeking the truth further I came to believe that truth itself is an unachievable illusion. I was left with nothing for a time, and then realized the only thing I knew with any certainty was my own feelings. Now I focus on those feelings, and of feeling happy. Truth is useful only in aiding my achievement of happiness.

Krexent

[DJS]

A suggestion krexent. You should consider substituting *truth* with the term *knowledge*. [thumb]

[Brainbox]

Ultimately we all have different values.  Truth, or the achievment of understanding is one apparently that is of importance to you.  I, on the other hand, find happiness far more important.  If belief in a god or a religion allows you to be happy, or if belief in science and scientific knoweldge allows you to be happy, then to me they are both of value.  I once also felt truth to be of the greatest importance, but upon seeking the truth further I came to believe that truth itself is an unachievable illusion.  I was left with nothing for a time, and then realized the only thing I knew with any certainty was my own feelings.  Now I focus on those feelings, and of feeling happy.  Truth is useful only in aiding my achievement of happiness.

Krexent

Unfortunately, a huge number of religious individuals achieve their happiness by enforcing their only way to become happy to others. The big dilemma within religion is that unity which is being enforced leads to polarisation. The same thing that is happening in the contributions to this thread.

To become on-topic again: in my opinion, religion is not the answer to our prayers.

Praying or meditating can have it’s purposes though.

[DJS]

Heuristics that posit [airquote] happiness [/airquote] as an ultimate goal are probably the single biggest source of ignorance and irrationalism in this world.

If it makes one happy to believe that the seas of Europa are filled with fruity pebbles, then who am I to rain on your parade? However, this doesn't mean that your belief corresponds to objective reality (ie, is truth).

[biggee]

Sorry, krexent but you are completely off base and full of crap I might add. I am an extremely satisfied person in that I have gone the distance on most ends of the scale. There is no room for god, faith or the f*cking easter bunny. Grow up! I can not say it any more clear.

It is all about accountability and responsibility. You have no idea how happy I am in that. If I seem angry it is because of idiots who believe in some f*cking "higher reality" instead of the actual and genuine healing reality here and now that no one wants to accept and be responsible for . Instead lets pretend there is alternate dimension etc.. that can and does inflict its essense in the here and now.

Get real. Get real now. When you do (if you do, which you won't, because you are pathetically mystically plagued and thus can't see it let alone begin research it as a result) and YOU truly go the distance you will finally see what I see. Until you are willing to sacrifice the false (spiritual, loving, realized) for the genuine thing you can never become grounded for the the facts to clearly present themselves that lead to the knowledge and thus the true understanding of what really is transpiring on this planet, ******. And if you don't like being called names, then don't try sugar coating your beliefs and handing them on a platter to me. Hit me straight on and don'tf*ck around the bush, or you hold no credibility with a true warrior for the individual, humanity and thus the expansion and disemination of man invented consciousness! I know better.

You are the one whom, while sitting there esposing tranquility and righteousness, are deep down empty and lacking REAL substance. It is called letting go and letting god, (in other words becoming brain dead)and that is completely irresponsible and the cause of most every problem that has surfaced to challenge mankind. We are losers. If you arn't some pissed about this anti-civilization then there truly is something wrong with you. It is that kind of mentaslity that causes it to persist. Wake up, wake up, wake up.... Sheesh. Evertime I point these things out the mystically plagued try to save me not seeingh they are the ones who are lost and responsible for the major f*cking over of humanity throughout the ages!?I am tired of hearing the same irresponsible crap and speciousness from all manner of theists or those whom pretend they are individual and godless. There is only one reason you (and most everyone else) will not allow yourself to entertain anything outside your fluffy ideas and one reason only. Do I have to say it again!

You can not see that I love life and people. If you could you would know exactly why I appear as angry to you. It is not because I have found god, faith, belief or some higher cause, but because I have discovered something truly unique, Myself! The only true and responsible authority there ever was and ever will be, if you have the honest integrity to really understand. That is available to everyone that will honestly work extremely and persistantly hard on clearing thier mysticisms, self-deceptions and dishonesties, period. Do you like the cure...hehehehe

Edit: Ad hominem

Edited by DonSpanton, 24 March 2006 - 07:57 AM.