74 replies to this topic

[DR01D]

ta5


Thank you very much for posting those links!!! That's definitive enough for me.

[DePaw]

"Man has a PH balance, which means Acid/Alkaline. If man were a vegetarian, as the vegetarians say he is, then he wouldn't produce any acid at all. He'd be totally alkaline. All foods that are of the protein variety, meat, fish, eggs, chicken, turkey, cheese and cottage cheese are digested in an acid base.

All foods that are not of a protein nature, such as fruits, vegetables, and grains, are digested in an alkaline base. Nature seems to have given us this balance. Why does Mother Nature intend you to have stomach acid? Hydrochloric acid is the main component of your stomach.

If you were to take your finger and stick it down your throat, and your finger touched your stomach, it would burn your finger right off. That's how strong your stomach acid is, or should be. People say that's not possible, because if your acid is going to burn your finger, it's going to burn your stomach. No, because nature has prepared us with a lining on the inside of our stomach that's impervious to hydrochloric acid.

Hydrochloric acid can not eat through your stomach like it can eat through metal, cloth, or wood. Hydrochloric acid is there to digest protein food. As a matter of fact, it's there to digest all food, including vegetables. Did you ever wonder why the acid is there, other than to digest your food?

Why can a dog, for instance, which is strictly a carnivore, go out and drink sewer water? Why can an alligator or a rat live in filth and not get sick if they eat food that nature intended them to eat? The answer is hydrochloric acid. We are bombarded daily with viruses and bacteria in our environment.

If your stomach acid is high enough, and you ingest any bacteria or virus, the hydrochloric acid kills it. This is part of your immune system, just like your diet, your good bacteria, your Thymus, vitamin C, and the colostrum that you secrete when you're born. Note: No pathogen can live in an acid base. Read my article on Ph Balance.

I did a test on myself many years ago because my teacher, Vince Gironda, who one of the most gifted men that I have ever met, taught me the value of hydrochloric acid. One Sunday afternoon, I took a piece of ground turkey and lightly cooked it. I left on the counter for one week. The bacteria started to set in because of the moisture in the meat.

By the next Sunday, the turkey smelled pretty bad. I had the phone sitting there ready to dial 911. I swallowed a spoonful of apple cider vinegar. I put a little mustard on the meat, held my nose, and ate the turkey burger. I took four or five hydrochloric tablets and waited.

By all rights, I should have gotten sick, but I didn't. The hydrochloric acid is there to destroy viruses, bacteria and all pathogens. The reason why the people of today are so sick is because we've eaten a diet of refined and processed carbohydrates for the last one hundred years.

We've become carbohydrate eaters, consuming cookies, cakes, pies, candies, pretzels, doughnuts, pizza, slurpies, pop tarts, sugar frosted flakes, coney islands, bagels, pasta and spaghetti. We're starting to become alkaline. When you become alkaline, you lose your hydrochloric acid.

The body says 'why should I manufacture it, when I have no need for it?' You become alkaline, and that's when you become a victim. This is the number one, most important reason why I feel man is not meant to be a vegetarian."

- http://www.bodybuild...n/kosloff15.htm

Edited by DePaw, 06 April 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[xEva]

Ruminants produce hydrochloric acid. google hydrochloric acid ruminants Just about any stomach does. Please refrain from linking to dubious in content sites.

[misterE]

--ta5
Many of those studies you posted were funded either by the meat and dairy industry, or the USDA; which promotes animal agriculture. The epidemiological studies regarding diet and osteoporosis is so strong, that the meat and dairy industries had to fund studies to try and discredit the research, in order to convince people their products are safe to eat.

[Godot]

In what way are epidemiological studies "strong"? How does an epidemiological study "prove" anything? Those studies reveal potential patterns, but don't prove anything.

[CurrentChris]

I can't respond to individual posts or quote those posts on my phone.

There is a difference between the acid in your mouth after drinking soda and the acid your kidneys have to process. EmerGen C has minerals which I believe would mean an alkaline ash.

If you can't avoid the acids that may linger in your mouth then why not try rinsing with baking soda and water to neutralize the acid. I heard that the baking soda in water rinse is supposed to help reduce cavities in young people and help avoid the problems that sugar may cause in terms of cavities. (Bacteria, I think, feed on the sugar which is another factor when it comes to cavities.)

I don't think fruits high in antioxidants are to be avoided because you're supposed to eat a certain % of alkalizing foods and a certain % of acidifying goods. Too much fruit might not be good because it can also mean too much sugar.

[misterE]

In what way are epidemiological studies "strong"? How does an epidemiological study "prove" anything? Those studies reveal potential patterns, but don't prove anything.

All good science is backed by epidemiological observations. The epidemiological-studies give the researchers the very first clue, and following research backs up what the epidemiological studies suggest; countries that eat the most meat and dairy have the most osteoporosis compared to countries that eat primarily grains and vegetables. The studies posted by ta5 where funded by the meat and dairy industries as an attempt to discredit the strong epidemiological suggestions and what following studies confirm.

The meat and dairy industry is extremely wealthy. To protect that wealth, they will spend millions of dollars of their own profit to fund studies that show benefits of their products! That way, whenever someone (like myself) shows evidence showing that meat and dairy promote osteoporosis, there will be evidence to the contrary (which was funded by the meat and dairy industry) to convince people (like DRO1D) that their products are safe to consume.

The first thing I do when I read a study is I look for who it is funded by.

[ta5]

The first few references here are new ones that I found recently. The rest below was copied from my previous posts with the addition of the funders in bold where I could find them.


Protein intake and bone health: the influence of belief systems on the conduct of nutritional science
"Two randomized controlled trials showed that increased protein intake dramatically improved outcomes after hip fracture (3, 4), and subsequent work showed that protein supplements reduce bone loss at the contralateral hip in patients with upper femoral fracture (5, 6)."

3 Delmi M, Rapin C-H, Bengoa J-M, Delmas PD, Vasey, Bonjour J-P. Dietary supplementation in elderly patients with fractured neck of the femur. Lancet 1990;335:1013–6.

4 Bastow MD, Rawlings J, Allison SP. Benefits of supplementary tube feeding after fractured neck of femur. Br Med J 1983;287:1589–92.

5 Schürch M-A, Rizzoli R, Slosman D, Vadas L, Vergnaud P, Bonjour J-P. Protein supplements increase serum insulin-like growth factor-I levels and attenuate proximal femur bone loss in patients with recent hip fracture. Ann Intern Med 1998;128:801–9.

6 Bonjour J-P, Schürch M-A, Rizzoli R. Nutritional aspects of hip fractures. Bone 1996;18:139S–44S.


Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Dec;90(6):1674-92.
Dietary protein and bone health: a systematic review and meta-analysis.
...A small positive effect of protein supplementation on lumbar spine BMD in randomized placebo-controlled trials supports the positive association between protein intake and bone health found in cross-sectional surveys....
PMID: 19889822
"None of the authors had a conflict of interest or received financial support for this work."


Dietary Protein: An Essential Nutrient For Bone Health
Nutrition plays a major role in the development and maintenance of bone structures resistant to usual mechanical loadings. In addition to calcium in the presence of an adequate vitamin D supply, proteins represent a key nutrient for bone health, and thereby in the prevention of osteoporosis. In sharp opposition to experimental and clinical evidence, it has been alleged that proteins, particularly those from animal sources, might be deleterious for bone health by inducing chronic metabolic acidosis which in turn would be responsible for increased calciuria and accelerated mineral dissolution. This claim is based on an hypothesis that artificially assembles various notions, including in vitro observations on the physical-chemical property of apatite crystal, short term human studies on the calciuric response to increased protein intakes, as well as retrospective inter-ethnic comparisons on the prevalence of hip fractures. The main purpose of this review is to analyze the evidence that refutes a relation of causality between the elements of this putative patho-physiological “cascade” that purports that animal proteins are causally associated with an increased incidence of osteoporotic fractures. In contrast, many experimental and clinical published data concur to indicate that low protein intake negatively affects bone health. Thus, selective deficiency in dietary proteins causes marked deterioration in bone mass, micro architecture and strength, the hallmark of osteoporosis. In the elderly, low protein intakes are often observed in patients with hip fracture. In these patients intervention study after orthopedic management demonstrates that protein supplementation as given in the form of casein, attenuates post-fracture bone loss, increases muscles strength, reduces medical complications and hospital stay. In agreement with both experimental and clinical intervention studies, large prospective epidemiologic observations indicate that relatively high protein intakes, including those from animal sources are associated with increased bone mineral mass and reduced incidence of osteoporotic fractures. As to the increased calciuria that can be observed in response to an augmentation in either animal or vegetal proteins it can be explained by a stimulation of the intestinal calcium absorption. Dietary proteins also enhance IGF-1, a factor that exerts positive activity on skeletal development and bone formation. Consequently, dietary proteins are as essential as calcium and vitamin D for bone health and osteoporosis prevention. Furthermore, there is no consistent evidence for superiority of vegetal over animal proteins on calcium metabolism, bone loss prevention and risk reduction of fragility fractures.
"Service of Bone Diseases,* Faculty of Medicine, University of Geneva, SWITZERLAND
*WHO Collaborating Center For Osteoporosis Prevention"


J Bone Miner Res. 2009 Nov;24(11):1835-40.
Meta-analysis of the effect of the acid-ash hypothesis of osteoporosis on calcium balance.
...Promotion of the "alkaline diet" to prevent calcium loss is not justified.
PMID: 19419322
"This study was supported by doctoral fellowships from the University of Calgary and the Alberta Heritage Fund for Medical Research."


Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2010 Nov;13(6):698-702.
Acid diet (high-meat protein) effects on calcium metabolism and bone health.
...recent findings do not support the assumption that bone is lost to provide the extra calcium found in urine. Neither whole body calcium balance is, nor are bone status indicators, negatively affected by the increased acid load....
On the basis of recent findings, consuming protein (including that from meat) higher than current Recommended Dietary Allowance for protein is beneficial to calcium utilization and bone health, especially in the elderly. A high-protein diet with adequate calcium and fruits and vegetables is important for bone health and osteoporosis prevention.
PMID: 20717017
"This work was supported by the USDA Agricultural Research Service (ARS) program ‘Mineral Intakes for Optimal Bone Development and Health,’ Current Research Information System (CRIS) no. 5450-51000- 039-00D, as part of the authors’ official duties."


Nutr J. 2011 Apr 30;10:41.
Causal assessment of dietary acid load and bone disease: a systematic review & meta-analysis applying Hill's epidemiologic criteria for causality.
...A causal association between dietary acid load and osteoporotic bone disease is not supported by evidence and there is no evidence that an alkaline diet is protective of bone health.
PMID: 21529374
"This work was supported in part by: Doctoral fellowships from the University of Calgary and the Alberta Heritage Fund for Medical Research. The funders played no role in the study design, collection, analysis, interpretation of data, writing of the report, or the conclusions reached.
All of the authors contributed to interpret the findings and wiring the manuscript, and all authors read and approved the final manuscript.
The authors declare that they have no competing interests"


Nutr J. 2011 Apr 30;10:41.
Causal assessment of dietary acid load and bone disease: a systematic review & meta-analysis applying Hill's epidemiologic criteria for causality.
....A causal association between dietary acid load and osteoporotic bone disease is not supported by evidence and there is no evidence that an alkaline diet is protective of bone health.
PMID: 21529374
"This work was supported in part by: Doctoral fellowships from the University of Calgary and the Alberta Heritage Fund for Medical Research. The funders played no role in study design, collection, analysis, interpretation of data, writing of the report, or the conclusions reached."


Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Jan;69(1):147-52.
Prospective study of dietary protein intake and risk of hip fracture in postmenopausal women.
...risk of hip fracture was not related to intake of calcium or vitamin D, but was negatively associated with total protein intake. Animal rather than vegetable sources of protein appeared to account for this association....
Intake of dietary protein, especially from animal sources, may be associated with a reduced incidence of hip fractures in postmenopausal women.
PMID: 9925137
"Supported by the US National Dairy Council (RGM, principal investigator), the US National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases (award RO1-AR43391; RGM, principal investigator), and the Office of the Vice-President for Research and the Agricultural Experiment Station, Utah State University, Logan. The Iowa Women's Health Study is supported by grant RO1-CA39742 from the US National Cancer Institute (A Folsom, principal investigator). Funding agencies were not involved in the study design, conduct, or analyses or in manuscript preparation."


Nutr Rev. 2002 Oct;60(10 Pt 1):337-41.
Elderly women need dietary protein to maintain bone mass.
Excess dietary protein is considered a risk factor for osteoporosis owing to the potential for renal acid load. Researchers who conducted a recent prospective study of older adults reported that animal protein had a protective role for bone, especially in elderly women, whereas plant protein was negatively associated with bone mineral density. An interaction between protein and calcium suggested protein alone was not the important factor. Other studies confirm the beneficial effect of increasing dietary protein intake in older women to reduce bone mineral density loss and risk of fracture, suggesting that emphasis should be placed on promoting adequate protein intake in elderly women.
PMID: 12392151


Can J Diet Pract Res. 2003 Spring;64(1):5-11.
Protein and bone health: literature review and counselling implications.
...There is general agreement in the literature that higher protein intake increases urinary calcium loss; the body compensates for this loss by increasing calcium absorption in the gut, providing that calcium intake is sufficient. ...
PMID: 12631403


J Nutr. 2003 Mar;133(3):855S-861S.
Low protein intake: the impact on calcium and bone homeostasis in humans.
...there are no definitive nutrition intervention studies that show a detrimental effect of a high protein diet on the skeleton ... Several recent epidemiological studies demonstrate reduced bone density and increased rates of bone loss in individuals habitually consuming low protein diets...
PMID: 12612169
"Presented as part of a working group program “New Perspectives on Dietary Protein and Bone Health” given at the 24th Annual Meeting of the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research, San Antonio, TX, September 20, 2002. This program was sponsored by the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research and was supported by a grant from the National Dairy Council®. Guest editors for this program were Lisa A. Spence, National Dairy Council, Rosemont, IL and Connie M. Weaver, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN.
This work was supported by grants from the U.S. Department of Agriculture (00-35200-9579, 97-35200-4420, 94-37200-0668), the National Institutes of Health (DK52128-03, NIH MO1-RR00125, NIH 5P30AR46032-04), the Catherine Weldon Donaghue Women’s Health Investigator Program at Yale University and the University of Connecticut."


Proc Nutr Soc. 2003 May;62(2):505-9.
Calcium and protein in bone health.
... In a recent study it was found that increasing dietary protein was associated with a favourable (positive) change in bone mineral density of the femoral neck and total body in subjects taking supplemental calcium citrate malate with vitamin D, but not in those taking placebo....
PMID: 14506898
"Calcium and Bone Metabolism Laboratory, The Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging, Tufts University"


J Nutr. 2003 Mar;133(3):852S-854S.
Interaction of dietary calcium and protein in bone health in humans.
Protein has both positive and negative effects on calcium balance, and the net effect of dietary protein on bone mass and fracture risk may be dependent on the dietary calcium intake. In addition to providing substrate for bone matrix, dietary protein stimulates the production of insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1), a factor that promotes osteoblast-mediated bone formation. Protein also increases urinary calcium losses, by several proposed mechanisms. Increasing calcium intake may offset the negative impact of dietary protein on urinary calcium losses, allowing the favorable effect of protein on the IGF-1 axis to dominate. Several, although not all, studies are either compatible with or support this hypothesis. Protein supplements significantly reduced bone loss in elderly hip-fracture patients in a study in which both the protein and control groups received supplemental calcium. In an observational study, total protein intake was positively associated with favorable 3-y changes in femoral neck and total body bone mineral density in volunteers who received supplemental calcium citrate malate and vitamin D, but not in volunteers taking placebos. In conclusion, an adequate calcium intake may help promote a favorable effect of dietary protein on the skeleton in older individuals.
PMID: 12612168
"Calcium and Bone Metabolism Laboratory at the Jean Mayer U.S. Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA
Presented as part of a working group program “New Perspectives on Dietary Protein and Bone Health” given at the 24th Annual Meeting of the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research, San Antonio, TX, September 20, 2002. This program was sponsored by the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research and was supported by a grant from the National Dairy Council®. Guest editors for this program were Lisa A. Spence, National Dairy Council, Rosemont, IL and Connie M. Weaver, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN.
This material is based on work supported by a grant (AG10353) from the National Institutes of Health and by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, under agreement No. 58-1950-9001. Any opinions, findings, conclusions or recommendations expressed in this publication are those of the authors, and do not necessarily reflect the view of the U.S. Department of Agriculture."


Proc Nutr Soc. 2003 Nov;62(4):867-76.
Dietary protein and bone health.
...Prospective studies in the elderly in the USA have shown that the greatest bone losses occur in elderly men and women with an average protein intake of 16-50 g/d....
PMID: 15018487


J Bone Miner Res. 2004 Apr;19(4):537-45. Epub 2004 Feb 9.
Dietary protein intake and risk of osteoporotic hip fracture in elderly residents of Utah.
...Higher total protein intake was associated with a reduced risk of hip fracture in men and women 50-69 years of age but not in men and women 70-89 years of age. ...Our study supports the hypothesis that adequate dietary protein is important for optimal bone health in the elderly 50-69 years of age.
PMID: 15005839
"This study was supported by U.S. National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases Grant R01 AR43391 (RGM) and funding from the Agricultural Experiment Station and the Office of the Vice President for Research of Utah State University."


J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jan;90(1):26-31. Epub 2004 Nov 16.
The impact of dietary protein on calcium absorption and kinetic measures of bone turnover in women.
...There were no protein-induced effects on net bone balance. These data directly demonstrate that, at least in the short term, high-protein diets are not detrimental to bone.
PMID: 15546911
"This work was supported by Grant DK52128-03 from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) RO1, by The Ethel F. Donaghue Women’s Health Investigator Program at Yale University, and by Yale’s GCRC (NIH MO1-RR00125)."


Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Jun;81(6):1423-8.
Protein consumption is an important predictor of lower limb bone mass in elderly women.
...positive correlation between protein intake and qualitative ultrasound of the heel and BMD ...These data suggest that protein intakes for elderly women above current recommendations may be necessary to optimize bone mass.
PMID: 15941897
" Supported by the Healthway Health Promotion Foundation of Western Australia, the Australasian Menopause Society, and the National Health Medical Research Council Project (grant no. 254627)."


Calcif Tissue Int. 2008 May;82(5):373-82.
Influence of high and low protein intakes on age-related bone loss in rats submitted to adequate or restricted energy conditions.
Low energy and protein intake has been suggested to contribute to the increased incidence of osteoporosis in the elderly. ...After 5 months of the experiment, protein intake (13% or 26%) did not modulate calcium retention or bone status in those rats, although a low-grade metabolic acidosis was induced with the HP diet. Both restrictions (PER and ER) decreased femoral bone mineral density and fracture load...
PMID: 18437274
"Unite ́ de Nutrition Humaine UMR1019, Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique Clermont-Ferrand/Theix, 63122 Saint Genes Champanelle, France"


Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 May;87(5):1567S-1570S.
Amount and type of protein influences bone health.
...Protein has been identified as being both detrimental and beneficial to bone health, depending on a variety of factors, including the level of protein in the diet, the protein source, calcium intake, weight loss, and the acid/base balance of the diet....Factors that affect muscle anabolism, including protein intake, also affect bone mass. ...Calcium and protein intake interact constructively to affect bone health. Intakes of both calcium and protein must be adequate to fully realize the benefit of each nutrient on bone. Optimal protein intake for bone health is likely higher than current recommended intakes, particularly in the elderly. Concerns about dietary protein increasing urinary calcium appear to be offset by increases in absorption. Likewise, concerns about the impact of protein on acid production appear to be minor compared with the alkalinizing effects of fruits and vegetables. Perhaps more concern should be focused on increasing fruit and vegetable intake rather than reducing protein sources.
PMID: 18469289
"Presented at the conference “Protein Summit 2007: Exploring the Impact of High-Quality Protein on Optimal Health,” held in Charleston, SC, May 24, 2007.
Support for “Protein Summit 2007: Exploring the Impact of High-Quality Protein on Optimal Health ” and this supplement was provided by the Egg Nutrition Center, National Dairy Council, National Pork Board, and The Beef Checkoff through the National Cattlemen's Beef Association."


Public Health Nutr. 2008 Jun;11(6):564-72. Epub 2007 Aug 9.
Effects of meat consumption and vegetarian diet on risk of wrist fracture over 25 years in a cohort of peri- and postmenopausal women.
...The finding that higher consumption frequencies of foods rich in protein were associated with reduced WF supports the importance of adequate protein for bone health. The similarity in risk reduction by vegetable protein foods compared with meat intake suggests that adequate protein intake is attainable in a vegetarian diet.
PMID: 17686206
"This work was supported by grants no. 2R01-CA14703-15 and 5R01 CA094594 from the National Cancer Institute."


Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 May;89(5):1357-65.
Dietary protein and calcium interact to influence calcium retention: a controlled feeding study.
...In healthy postmenopausal women, a moderate increase in dietary protein, from 10% to 20% of energy, slightly improved calcium absorption from a low-calcium diet, nearly compensating for a slight increase in urinary calcium excretion. Under practical dietary conditions, increased dietary protein from animal sources was not detrimental to calcium balance or short-term indicators of bone health.
PMID: 19279077
"Supported by the USDA Agricultural Research Service, the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, and the North Dakota Beef Commission."


Nutrition. 2009 Jun;25(6):647-54.
Association of total calcium and dietary protein intakes with fracture risk in postmenopausal women: the 1999-2002 National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES).
...In women who consumed <46 g/d of dietary protein, those with a TCI >or=1200 mg/d had a significantly higher risk of fracture than those with the lowest TCI ...whereas in women who consumed >70 g/d of dietary protein, those with a TCI >or=1200 mg/d had an insignificant lower risk of fracture (adjusted odds ratio 0.69, 95% confidence interval 0.20-2.39)....
PMID: 19230618


J Bone Miner Res. 2010 Dec;25(12):2770-6.
Protective effect of high protein and calcium intake on the risk of hip fracture in the Framingham offspring cohort.
...In the 800 mg/day or more group, T3 of animal protein had an 85% reduced hip fracture risk ... Our results from middle-aged men and women show that higher animal protein intake coupled with calcium intake of 800 mg/day or more may protect against hip fracture, whereas the effect appears reversed for those with lower calcium intake....
PMID: 20662074
"This study was supported by National Institutes of Health Grants R01 AR53205 and R01 AR/AG 41398 and NHLBI's Framingham Study Contract Grant Number N01-HC-25195.
All the authors state that they have no conflicts of interest."


Osteoporos Int. 2011 Jan;22(1):345-9.
Does dietary protein reduce hip fracture risk in elders? The Framingham Osteoporosis Study.
...Our results are consistent with reduced risk of hip fracture with higher dietary protein intake...
PMID: 20442986
"This work was supported by National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases (NIAMS R01 AR053205), National Institute on Aging (AG14759), National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases and National Institute on Aging (AR/AG41398), and from Framingham Heart Study of National Heart Lung and Blood Institute of National Institutes of Health and Boston University School of Medicine (N01-HC-25195) and by USDA contract 58-1950-7-707."


Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 2011 Mar;81(2-3):134-42.
Protein intake and bone health.
Adequate nutrition plays an important role in the development and maintenance of bone structures resistant to usual mechanical stresses. In addition to calcium in the presence of an adequate supply of vitamin D, dietary proteins represent key nutrients for bone health and thereby function in the prevention of osteoporosis. Several studies point to a positive effect of high protein intake on bone mineral density or content. This fact is associated with a significant reduction in hip fracture incidence, as recorded in a large prospective study carried out in a homogeneous cohort of postmenopausal women. Low protein intake (< 0.8 g/kg body weight/day) is often observed in patients with hip fractures and an intervention study indicates that following orthopedic management, protein supplementation attenuates post-fracture bone loss, tends to increase muscle strength, and reduces medical complications and rehabilitation hospital stay. There is no evidence that high protein intake per se would be detrimental for bone mass and strength. Nevertheless, it appears reasonable to avoid very high protein diets (i. e. more than 2.0 g/kg body weight/day) when associated with low calcium intake (i. e. less than 600 mg/day). In the elderly, taking into account the attenuated anabolic response to dietary protein with ageing, there is concern that the current dietary protein recommended allowance (RDA), as set at 0.8 g/kg body weight/day, might be too low for the primary and secondary prevention of fragility fractures.
PMID: 22139564


Nutr Rev. 2011 Apr;69(4):215-30.
Dietary protein and bone health: harmonizing conflicting theories.
...However, recent clinical studies and a meta-analysis have indicated either no effect or a modest benefit associated with higher protein intakes. These contradictory considerations may be explained by the existence of a two-faced relationship between protein and bone, with simultaneous positive and negative pathways. In opposition to the negative effects of dietary acid load, protein may exert positive effects related to improving calcium absorption, increasing insulin-like growth factor 1, or improving lean body mass, which, in turn, improves bone strength....When positive and negative pathways are considered in tandem, protein may offer modest benefits to bone in the presence of adequate dietary calcium and acid-neutralizing fruits and vegetables.
PMID: 21457266
"MP Thorpe is with the Division of Nutritional Science, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, Illinois, USA. EM Evans is with the Division of Kinesiology and Community Health, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, Illinois, USA. Significant portions of this manuscript have been included in the doctoral dissertation of MP Thorpe. Dissemination of that dissertation outside of the University of Illinois has been embargoed pending scholarly publication.
Declaration of interest. The authors have no relevant interest to declare."


J Nutr. 2011 Mar;141(3):391-7.
A diet high in meat protein and potential renal acid load increases fractional calcium absorption and urinary calcium excretion without affecting markers of bone resorption or formation in postmenopausal women.
...a high-protein diet has no adverse effects on bone health.
PMID: 21248199
"Supported by the USDA Agricultural Research Service (ARS) program “Mineral Intakes for Optimal Bone Development and Health” Current Research Information System no. 5450-51000-039-00D as part of the authors’ official duties. ... This work was also partially funded by the Beef Check-off through the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association (NCBA). The NCBA did not participant in the design, implementation, interpretation, or analysis of the research."


Curr Opin Lipidol. 2011 Feb;22(1):16-20.
Dietary protein and skeletal health: a review of recent human research.
...Recent epidemiological, isotopic and meta-analysis studies suggest that dietary protein works synergistically with calcium to improve calcium retention and bone metabolism. The recommendation to intentionally restrict dietary protein to improve bone health is unwarranted, and potentially even dangerous to those individuals who consume inadequate protein.
PMID: 21102327


J Bone Miner Metab. 2011 Jan;29(1):1-14.
The interaction between dietary protein and bone health.
...There is not enough evidence currently to suggest that animal protein is superior or inferior to vegetable protein, or that milk or soy protein, respectively, is more favorable than other protein sources.
PMID: 20972896
"Food and Nutritional Sciences, Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), PO Box 10041, Adelaide, BC, SA, 5000, Australia
2. Department of Medicine, University of Adelaide, Adelaide, Australia"


Clin Nutr. 2012 Jun;31(3):391-5.
Protein intake and fracture risk in elderly people: a case-control study.
...Patients with fracture history have lower API suggesting that high API reduce the occurrence of OP in elderly even if CaI is <800 mg/day. A PI<15% of total calories were associated with an increased risk of OP in elderly.
PMID: 22182947
"This research was funded by a grant from the Fondo de Investigación Sanitaria (Fund for Health Research, Spanish Ministry of Health) PI011245."

[misterE]

--ta5

Many of the studies you posted aren't full studies; just abstracts... so we can't really tell who funded the studies. You listed the source of the studies, but not the acknowledgments, in some, but not all of the studies. As you and everyone can see, many of them were indeed funded by the meat and dairy industries.

But you will always find contradictory studies. And these studies don't support the epidemiological findings...

In your opinion, why is it that nations who eat the most animal-protein and calcium have the highest rates of osteoporosis? I know you disagree with animal-protein being bad for bone health, we can show contradictory studies all day long (even if they aren’t funded by the meat and dairy industry)… but how do you explain the epidemiological studies?

Edited by misterE, 08 April 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[misterE]

Protein intake and bone health: the influence of belief systems on the conduct of nutritional science
The principal author is Robert Heaney; consultant for the dairy-industry.

Acid diet (high-meat protein) effects on calcium metabolism and bone health.
Funded by the USDA, which promotes meat and dairy. Many former members of the meat and dairy industries are now members of the USDA.

Prospective study of dietary protein intake and risk of hip fracture in postmenopausal women.
Supported by the US National Dairy Council.

Low protein intake: the impact on calcium and bone homeostasis in humans.
Funded by the National Dairy Council and the U.S. Department of Agriculture; another industry that supports meat consumption.

Calcium and protein in bone health.
Funded by the USDA.

Interaction of dietary calcium and protein in bone health in humans.
Supported by a grant from the National Dairy Council and the USDA.

Dietary protein intake and risk of osteoporotic hip fracture in elderly residents of Utah.
Funded by Agricultural Experiment Station, which promotes meat and dairy.

Amount and type of protein influences bone health.
The principal researcher is Robert Heaney; consultant for the dairy-industry, and funded by National Cattlemen's Beef Association, National Dairy Council and the Egg Nutrition Center.

Dietary protein and calcium interact to influence calcium retention: a controlled feeding study.
Funded by the USDA Agricultural Research Service, the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, and the North Dakota Beef Commission.

Does dietary protein reduce hip fracture risk in elders? The Framingham Osteoporosis Study.
Funded by the USDA.

A diet high in meat protein and potential renal acid load increases fractional calcium absorption and urinary calcium excretion without affecting markers of bone resorption or formation in postmenopausal women.
Funded by the USDA and the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association.

Edited by misterE, 08 April 2013 - 02:15 AM.

[ta5]

--ta5

Many of the studies you posted aren't full studies; just abstracts... so we can't really tell who funded the studies. You listed the source of the studies, but not the acknowledgments, in some, but not all of the studies. As you and everyone can see, many of them were indeed funded by the meat and dairy industries.

But you will always find contradictory studies. And these studies don't support the epidemiological findings...

In your opinion, why is it that nations who eat the most animal-protein and calcium have the highest rates of osteoporosis? I know you disagree with animal-protein being bad for bone health, we can show contradictory studies all day long (even if they aren’t funded by the meat and dairy industry)… but how do you explain the epidemiological studies?

You're right, as I posted, some were funded by the meat and dairy industries. Some were not. All the ones I listed the funding for, I found the full study on the web.

A population study suggests a correlation. Then you need to do experiments to find the cause. That appears to be what researchers have been doing. The cause does not appear to be meat or protein. So, it's something else.

[misterE]

The cause does not appear to be meat or protein.

It is probably a mixture of things: animal-protein, insulin/IGF-1 resistance, lack of exercise, vitamin-D deficiency, inflammation, lack of leafy-green vegetables etc.

Edited by misterE, 13 April 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Godot]

Nope, animal protein is ruled out. The other factors you listed are valid.

[misterE]

Nope, animal protein is ruled out. The other factors you listed are valid.

Why is it ruled out? Animal-protein is extremely concentrated in sulfur containing amino-acids that are metabolized into sulfuric-acid, which then contributes to metabolic-acidosis and subsequent negative calcium-balance. Animal-protein plays a very large role in osteoporosis…surely it’s not “ruled out” on account for studies paid for by the meat and dairy industries.

[Godot]

ta5 just gave you a bunch of studies which rule it out, and they were not all funded by meat & dairy industries as you claim.

[niner]

While it's true that a number of studies have been funded by dairy and meat interests, that doesn't mean the studies are wrong or invalid. Particularly when independent groups are getting the same results. It might just mean that the dairy and meat interests are trying to get the truth out, since there is this "protein causes osteoporosis" meme floating around, which appears to be false.

Epidemiology that is done at the level of national populations is very prone to confounders. It doesn't prove anything. Epidemiology never proves anything, but when populations are aggregated at the size of nations, it becomes almost meaningless.

[misterE]

ta5 just gave you a bunch of studies which rule it out, and they were not all funded by meat & dairy industries as you claim.

What about the studies I posted?

Edited by misterE, 14 April 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[misterE]

the dairy and meat interests are trying to get the truth out, since there is this "protein causes osteoporosis" meme floating around, which appears to be false.

Or to counteract the overwhelming epidemiological data.

[Godot]

misterE, are you familiar with the concept of confounding variables? They are the reason that causation can never be demonstrated by epidemiological data. Here is a good explanation: http://www.healthkno...ias-confounding

[misterE]

misterE, are you familiar with the concept of confounding variables?

Yes. But what about the role of acid vs. alkaline foods and their effects on calcium balance?

[DePaw]

misterE, are you familiar with the concept of confounding variables?

Yes. But what about the role of acid vs. alkaline foods and their effects on calcium balance?

So carnivores all have osteoporosis then?

Nope, animal protein is ruled out. The other factors you listed are valid.

Why is it ruled out? Animal-protein is extremely concentrated in sulphur containing amino-acids that are metabolised into sulphuric-acid, which then contributes to metabolic-acidosis and subsequent negative calcium-balance. Animal-protein plays a very large role in osteoporosis…surely it’s not “ruled out” on account for studies paid for by the meat and dairy industries.

You were disproved in your sulphuric acid nonsense already MisterE. And sulphur containing amino acids are good for us, they're a vital component for glutathione, a very powerful antioxidant.

You'll like this MisterE, Campbell's rats studies actually show that protein is important for preventing cancer and that low glutathione levels make toxins deadly rather than carcinogenic: http://www.westonapr...in-protects-us/

[misterE]

Clin Nutr. 2011 Aug;30(4):416-21. doi: 10.1016/j.clnu.2011.03.008.

Diet-induced metabolic acidosis.

Adeva MM, Souto G.



Abstract

The modern Western-type diet is deficient in fruits and vegetables and contains excessive animal products, generating the accumulation of non-metabolizable anions and a lifespan state of overlooked metabolic acidosis, whose magnitude increases progressively with aging due to the physiological decline in kidney function. In response to this state of diet-derived metabolic acidosis, the kidney implements compensating mechanisms aimed to restore the acid-base balance, such as the removal of the non-metabolizable anions, the conservation of citrate, and the enhancement of kidney ammoniagenesis and urinary excretion of ammonium ions. These adaptive processes lower the urine pH and induce an extensive change in urine composition, including hypocitraturia, hypercalciuria, and nitrogen and phosphate wasting. Low urine pH predisposes to uric acid stone formation. Hypocitraturia and hypercalciuria are risk factors for calcium stone disease. Even a very mild degree of metabolic acidosis induces skeletal muscle resistance to the insulin action and dietary acid load may be an important variable in predicting the metabolic abnormalities and the cardiovascular risk of the general population, the overweight and obese persons, and other patient populations including diabetes and chronic kidney failure. High dietary acid load is more likely to result in diabetes and systemic hypertension and may increase the cardiovascular risk. Results of recent observational studies confirm an association between insulin resistance and metabolic acidosis markers, including low serum bicarbonate, high serum anion gap, hypocitraturia, and low urine pH.

Edited by misterE, 15 April 2013 - 12:37 AM.

[ta5]

I'm not posting this in direct response to misterE or his last post. I'm posting it because I like it.


BMC Musculoskelet Disord. 2010 May 10;11:88. doi: 10.1186/1471-2474-11-88.

Low urine pH and acid excretion do not predict bone fractures or the loss of bone mineral density: a prospective cohort study.

Department of Community Health Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Calgary TRW Building, 3rd Floor, 3280 Hospital Drive NW, Calgary, Alberta T2N 4Z6, Canada.
BACKGROUND:
The acid-ash hypothesis, the alkaline diet, and related products are marketed to the general public. Websites, lay literature, and direct mail marketing encourage people to measure their urine pH to assess their health status and their risk of osteoporosis.The objectives of this study were to determine whether 1) low urine pH, or 2) acid excretion in urine [sulfate + chloride + 1.8x phosphate + organic acids] minus [sodium + potassium + 2x calcium + 2x magnesium mEq] in fasting morning urine predict: a) fragility fractures; and b) five-year change of bone mineral density (BMD) in adults.
METHODS:
Design: Cohort study: the prospective population-based Canadian Multicentre Osteoporosis Study. Multiple logistic regression was used to examine associations between acid excretion (urine pH and urine acid excretion) in fasting morning with the incidence of fractures (6804 person years). Multiple linear regression was used to examine associations between acid excretion with changes in BMD over 5-years at three sites: lumbar spine, femoral neck, and total hip (n = 651). Potential confounders controlled included: age, gender, family history of osteoporosis, physical activity, smoking, calcium intake, vitamin D status, estrogen status, medications, renal function, urine creatinine, body mass index, and change of body mass index.
RESULTS:
There were no associations between either urine pH or acid excretion and either the incidence of fractures or change of BMD after adjustment for confounders.
CONCLUSION:
Urine pH and urine acid excretion do not predict osteoporosis risk.


"Sources of support: The Canadian Foundation for Dietetic Research (Research funding) as well as doctoral fellowships from the University of Calgary and the Alberta Heritage Fund for Medical Research."

[Mind]

You were disproved in your sulphuric acid nonsense already MisterE

MisterE is very convinced of the superiority of vegan diets (and grains being healthy), and routinely posts studies to bolster his points (not all of which are convincing). I find his unflinching vegan promotion a bit irritating, sure, but at least he does it in a mostly scientific and cordial manner. Everyone should try return the favor, IMO

[blueinfinity]

"Man has a PH balance, which means Acid/Alkaline. If man were a vegetarian, as the vegetarians say he is, then he wouldn't produce any acid at all. He'd be totally alkaline. All foods that are of the protein variety, meat, fish, eggs, chicken, turkey, cheese and cottage cheese are digested in an acid base.

All foods that are not of a protein nature, such as fruits, vegetables, and grains, are digested in an alkaline base. Nature seems to have given us this balance. Why does Mother Nature intend you to have stomach acid? Hydrochloric acid is the main component of your stomach.

If you were to take your finger and stick it down your throat, and your finger touched your stomach, it would burn your finger right off. That's how strong your stomach acid is, or should be. People say that's not possible, because if your acid is going to burn your finger, it's going to burn your stomach. No, because nature has prepared us with a lining on the inside of our stomach that's impervious to hydrochloric acid.

Hydrochloric acid can not eat through your stomach like it can eat through metal, cloth, or wood. Hydrochloric acid is there to digest protein food. As a matter of fact, it's there to digest all food, including vegetables. Did you ever wonder why the acid is there, other than to digest your food?

Why can a dog, for instance, which is strictly a carnivore, go out and drink sewer water? Why can an alligator or a rat live in filth and not get sick if they eat food that nature intended them to eat? The answer is hydrochloric acid. We are bombarded daily with viruses and bacteria in our environment.

If your stomach acid is high enough, and you ingest any bacteria or virus, the hydrochloric acid kills it. This is part of your immune system, just like your diet, your good bacteria, your Thymus, vitamin C, and the colostrum that you secrete when you're born. Note: No pathogen can live in an acid base. Read my article on Ph Balance.

I did a test on myself many years ago because my teacher, Vince Gironda, who one of the most gifted men that I have ever met, taught me the value of hydrochloric acid. One Sunday afternoon, I took a piece of ground turkey and lightly cooked it. I left on the counter for one week. The bacteria started to set in because of the moisture in the meat.

By the next Sunday, the turkey smelled pretty bad. I had the phone sitting there ready to dial 911. I swallowed a spoonful of apple cider vinegar. I put a little mustard on the meat, held my nose, and ate the turkey burger. I took four or five hydrochloric tablets and waited.

By all rights, I should have gotten sick, but I didn't. The hydrochloric acid is there to destroy viruses, bacteria and all pathogens. The reason why the people of today are so sick is because we've eaten a diet of refined and processed carbohydrates for the last one hundred years.

We've become carbohydrate eaters, consuming cookies, cakes, pies, candies, pretzels, doughnuts, pizza, slurpies, pop tarts, sugar frosted flakes, coney islands, bagels, pasta and spaghetti. We're starting to become alkaline. When you become alkaline, you lose your hydrochloric acid.

The body says 'why should I manufacture it, when I have no need for it?' You become alkaline, and that's when you become a victim. This is the number one, most important reason why I feel man is not meant to be a vegetarian."

- http://www.bodybuild...n/kosloff15.htm

This is an extremely interesting point and one i do not see many people talking about, i see top health coaches and experts, biohackers alike promoting a more alkaline diet, but they are all still eating animal/fish proteins. So it does make sense to have that balance.

You were disproved in your sulphuric acid nonsense already MisterE

MisterE is very convinced of the superiority of vegan diets (and grains being healthy), and routinely posts studies to bolster his points (not all of which are convincing). I find his unflinching vegan promotion a bit irritating, sure, but at least he does it in a mostly scientific and cordial manner. Everyone should try return the favor, IMO

I do agree, I personally have found that a complete and strict vegan diet is meant for temporary periods of time, maybe 2 weeks maximum and for detox reasons. There is no real advantage for doing that on the whole life's term and inarguably extremely difficult and/or impossible in most places in the world that lack the proper food supply/system.

Being a complete Vegan may work short term, but most if not all of those i see were not raised from birth this way and therefore are not grateful or cognizant of the benefits they received while eating animal/fish foods. I think MisterE is entitled to his opinion, but would be negligent and ignorant to push that upon everyone else. As we see from supplements, different people respond to the same compounds in different ways.

[Raptor87]

If we have a working intestine then all food get's neutralized as soon as it leaves our ventricilus gaster, otherwise our intestines would dissolve. I don't know about this diet but would like to experiment for a couple of weeks. Do you guy's have any good foodrecipes or sites that you can recommend? I need to try something new out. Also what impact would it have on my training?

[Chupo]

Chris Kresser just recently did a series about this topic.

http://chriskresser....-ph-myth-part-1
http://chriskresser....ine-myth-part-2

[RWhigham]

In support of an alkalinizing diet:

 

"Potassium citrate supplementation results in sustained improvement in calcium balance in older men and women"  Mar 2013

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22991267

 

"Arterialized venous bicarbonate is associated with lower bone mineral density and an increased rate of bone loss in older men and women." Apr 2015

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25642590

 

 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 16 February 2016 - 06:03 AM.

[LucidMind]

Anybody have any thoughts on whether drinking alkaline water to help with an ulcer would interfere with absorption of nutraceuticals, supplements or pharmaceuticals?

 

Anybody have success with alkaline diets in reversing or treating a stomach ulcer?

[niner]

Anybody have any thoughts on whether drinking alkaline water to help with an ulcer would interfere with absorption of nutraceuticals, supplements or pharmaceuticals?

 

What exactly is this alkaline water?  Is it electrolyzed reduced water, sometimes (misleadingly) called "alkalized" water?  Or is it just water that has a pH higher than 7?