102 replies to this topic

[alecnevsky]

Regarding your second request, about the adaptation time.. When it comes to ketogenic diet, Chupo is your man.

Chupo, I meant to ask you on the other thread. Do you remember, how long it took for ketonuria to disappear?

I don't remember exactly so don't quote me on this but I'd guess between one and two months. The morning readings stayed the highest the longest, probably due to concentrated urine, but they eventually fell as well.

Could you (or anyone else) answer some of these on your free time? I'd really appreciate it.

Do you know the average adaptation time to dietary ketosis? Do thinner people have shorter or longer induction stages? What can be done to fast track ketosis induction and most importantly avoid brain lethargy, if not improve muscular endurance? Is it true that by undergoing or maintaining dietary ketosis one is giving up a lot of fast-twitch muscles for skeletal slow-twitch and will be unfit for most of sports?

Edited by alecnevsky, 06 April 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[MrHappy]

Regarding your second request, about the adaptation time.. When it comes to ketogenic diet, Chupo is your man.

Chupo, I meant to ask you on the other thread. Do you remember, how long it took for ketonuria to disappear?

I don't remember exactly so don't quote me on this but I'd guess between one and two months. The morning readings stayed the highest the longest, probably due to concentrated urine, but they eventually fell as well.

Could you (or anyone else) answer some of these on your free time? I'd really appreciate it.

Do you know the average adaptation time to dietary ketosis? Do thinner people have shorter or longer induction stages? What can be done to fast track ketosis induction and most importantly avoid brain lethargy, if not improve muscular endurance? Is it true that by undergoing or maintaining dietary ketosis one is giving up a lot of fast-twitch muscles for skeletal slow-twitch and will be unfit for most of sports?

Typically, 3 days to enter ketosis when you first start out, but that can drop to 1 day after your body adapts.

With increased water intake requirements (and excretion), maintaining your electrolyte levels may assist with normal functions.

I have no data on whether fat or thin people adapt differently, but I wouldn't think there would be significant differences.

[alecnevsky]

Regarding your second request, about the adaptation time.. When it comes to ketogenic diet, Chupo is your man.

Chupo, I meant to ask you on the other thread. Do you remember, how long it took for ketonuria to disappear?

I don't remember exactly so don't quote me on this but I'd guess between one and two months. The morning readings stayed the highest the longest, probably due to concentrated urine, but they eventually fell as well.

Could you (or anyone else) answer some of these on your free time? I'd really appreciate it.

Do you know the average adaptation time to dietary ketosis? Do thinner people have shorter or longer induction stages? What can be done to fast track ketosis induction and most importantly avoid brain lethargy, if not improve muscular endurance? Is it true that by undergoing or maintaining dietary ketosis one is giving up a lot of fast-twitch muscles for skeletal slow-twitch and will be unfit for most of sports?

Typically, 3 days to enter ketosis when you first start out, but that can drop to 1 day after your body adapts.

With increased water intake requirements (and excretion), maintaining your electrolyte levels may assist with normal functions.

I have no data on whether fat or thin people adapt differently, but I wouldn't think there would be significant differences.

Thank you. How long did you experience keto-flu during adaptation? I know it takes about 3 days to enter ketosis but i am interested in figuring out how long it takes for the brain to start efficiently utilizing the keytone bodies.

[MrHappy]

Regarding your second request, about the adaptation time.. When it comes to ketogenic diet, Chupo is your man.

Chupo, I meant to ask you on the other thread. Do you remember, how long it took for ketonuria to disappear?

I don't remember exactly so don't quote me on this but I'd guess between one and two months. The morning readings stayed the highest the longest, probably due to concentrated urine, but they eventually fell as well.

Could you (or anyone else) answer some of these on your free time? I'd really appreciate it.

Do you know the average adaptation time to dietary ketosis? Do thinner people have shorter or longer induction stages? What can be done to fast track ketosis induction and most importantly avoid brain lethargy, if not improve muscular endurance? Is it true that by undergoing or maintaining dietary ketosis one is giving up a lot of fast-twitch muscles for skeletal slow-twitch and will be unfit for most of sports?

Typically, 3 days to enter ketosis when you first start out, but that can drop to 1 day after your body adapts.

With increased water intake requirements (and excretion), maintaining your electrolyte levels may assist with normal functions.

I have no data on whether fat or thin people adapt differently, but I wouldn't think there would be significant differences.

Thank you. How long did you experience keto-flu during adaptation? I know it takes about 3 days to enter ketosis but i am interested in figuring out how long it takes for the brain to start efficiently utilizing the keytone bodies.

I didn't have any issues with it at all.

To be fair, my immune system appears to be based on an early prototype of Wolverine, so YMMV. Normally, illnesses that keep my staff/colleagues from turning up to work just make me cranky and intolerant for an afternoon.

Maybe start on a Friday, so you're mostly there by Monday?

[alecnevsky]

Regarding your second request, about the adaptation time.. When it comes to ketogenic diet, Chupo is your man.

Chupo, I meant to ask you on the other thread. Do you remember, how long it took for ketonuria to disappear?

I don't remember exactly so don't quote me on this but I'd guess between one and two months. The morning readings stayed the highest the longest, probably due to concentrated urine, but they eventually fell as well.

Could you (or anyone else) answer some of these on your free time? I'd really appreciate it.

Do you know the average adaptation time to dietary ketosis? Do thinner people have shorter or longer induction stages? What can be done to fast track ketosis induction and most importantly avoid brain lethargy, if not improve muscular endurance? Is it true that by undergoing or maintaining dietary ketosis one is giving up a lot of fast-twitch muscles for skeletal slow-twitch and will be unfit for most of sports?

Typically, 3 days to enter ketosis when you first start out, but that can drop to 1 day after your body adapts.

With increased water intake requirements (and excretion), maintaining your electrolyte levels may assist with normal functions.

I have no data on whether fat or thin people adapt differently, but I wouldn't think there would be significant differences.

Thank you. How long did you experience keto-flu during adaptation? I know it takes about 3 days to enter ketosis but i am interested in figuring out how long it takes for the brain to start efficiently utilizing the keytone bodies.

I didn't have any issues with it at all.

To be fair, my immune system appears to be based on an early prototype of Wolverine, so YMMV. Normally, illnesses that keep my staff/colleagues from turning up to work just make me cranky and intolerant for an afternoon.

Maybe start on a Friday, so you're mostly there by Monday?

Thanks MrHappy. Are you seeing any improvements in cerebral function from this? We know that athletes do better on glucose before training, I am wondering if ketosis is worth doing in virtue of improvement in brain function.

[MrHappy]

Regarding your second request, about the adaptation time.. When it comes to ketogenic diet, Chupo is your man.

Chupo, I meant to ask you on the other thread. Do you remember, how long it took for ketonuria to disappear?

I don't remember exactly so don't quote me on this but I'd guess between one and two months. The morning readings stayed the highest the longest, probably due to concentrated urine, but they eventually fell as well.

Could you (or anyone else) answer some of these on your free time? I'd really appreciate it.

Do you know the average adaptation time to dietary ketosis? Do thinner people have shorter or longer induction stages? What can be done to fast track ketosis induction and most importantly avoid brain lethargy, if not improve muscular endurance? Is it true that by undergoing or maintaining dietary ketosis one is giving up a lot of fast-twitch muscles for skeletal slow-twitch and will be unfit for most of sports?

Typically, 3 days to enter ketosis when you first start out, but that can drop to 1 day after your body adapts.

With increased water intake requirements (and excretion), maintaining your electrolyte levels may assist with normal functions.

I have no data on whether fat or thin people adapt differently, but I wouldn't think there would be significant differences.

Thank you. How long did you experience keto-flu during adaptation? I know it takes about 3 days to enter ketosis but i am interested in figuring out how long it takes for the brain to start efficiently utilizing the keytone bodies.

I didn't have any issues with it at all.

To be fair, my immune system appears to be based on an early prototype of Wolverine, so YMMV. Normally, illnesses that keep my staff/colleagues from turning up to work just make me cranky and intolerant for an afternoon.

Maybe start on a Friday, so you're mostly there by Monday?

Thanks MrHappy. Are you seeing any improvements in cerebral function from this? We know that athletes do better on glucose before training, I am wondering if ketosis is worth doing in virtue of improvement in brain function.

I find myself less distracted and less mentally fatigued. Seems to be a marked improvement overall.

[xEva]

Could you (or anyone else) answer some of these on your free time? I'd really appreciate it.

Do you know the average adaptation time to dietary ketosis? Do thinner people have shorter or longer induction stages? What can be done to fast track ketosis induction and most importantly avoid brain lethargy, if not improve muscular endurance? Is it true that by undergoing or maintaining dietary ketosis one is giving up a lot of fast-twitch muscles for skeletal slow-twitch and will be unfit for most of sports?

Typically, 3 days to enter ketosis when you first start out, but that can drop to 1 day after your body adapts.

Mr. Happy, what is the source of your info?

It takes 3 days to enter ketosis on a fast, not on a diet. And alecnevsky asked about adaptation to ketosis. As a mod, you should not be spewing disinfo and you should be trimming quotes

[MrHappy]

Could you (or anyone else) answer some of these on your free time? I'd really appreciate it.

Do you know the average adaptation time to dietary ketosis? Do thinner people have shorter or longer induction stages? What can be done to fast track ketosis induction and most importantly avoid brain lethargy, if not improve muscular endurance? Is it true that by undergoing or maintaining dietary ketosis one is giving up a lot of fast-twitch muscles for skeletal slow-twitch and will be unfit for most of sports?

Typically, 3 days to enter ketosis when you first start out, but that can drop to 1 day after your body adapts.

Mr. Happy, what is the source of your info?

It takes 3 days to enter ketosis on a fast, not on a diet. And alecnevsky asked about adaptation to ketosis. As a mod, you should not be spewing disinfo and you should be trimming quotes

That's quite incorrect. Providing your carb intake is below 20g daily, 3 days is the normal timeframe.

My info comes from a plethora of readily searchable online material, as well as published/written works and personal experience. Simple search for you - google '3 days to enter ketosis'. Also, on pubmed, search 'is a fast necessary when initiating the ketogenic diet', 2002, Wirrell et al.

Check your material before making such flame-bait assertions in future or trying to 'rustle my jimmies'.

Also, trimming quotes on an iphone is not a fast process. The forum software does appear to trim some of the content, however.

[xEva]

Also, trimming quotes on an iphone is not a fast process. The forum software does appear to trim some of the content, however.

lol that forum software is called Michael.

Mr. Happy, what is the source of your info?

It takes 3 days to enter ketosis on a fast, not on a diet. And alecnevsky asked about adaptation to ketosis. As a mod, you should not be spewing disinfo and you should be trimming quotes

That's quite incorrect. Providing your carb intake is below 20g daily, 3 days is the normal timeframe.

My info comes from a plethora of readily searchable online material, as well as published/written works and personal experience. Simple search for you - google '3 days to enter ketosis'. Also, on pubmed, search 'is a fast necessary when initiating the ketogenic diet', 2002, Wirrell et al.

Check your material before making such flame-bait assertions in future or trying to 'rustle my jimmies'.

I did google '3 days to enter ketosis' and these are mostly people returning to a ketogenic diet, not the first timers like alecnevsky, who has been suffering for close to a month and who was not helped by your narcissistic wolverine anecdote which you ended with "your mileage may vary" sneer.

The other problem with your 'plethora of readily searchable online material' is that people confuse dietary ketones with the induced metabolic state. There is a difference. I'll show what I mean on an example:

As you may know, my way of entering ketosis is via fasting. Last time it took me ~60h since last meal instead of usual 48h, because I felt lazy and did not workout in the first 2 days. Through the years I played with various ways of inducing ketosis. Several times I drank MCT oil. And even though ketones do appear soon after you drink it, the actual transition to ketosis is delayed by it -- like it would be delayed by any other source of calories. I hope you understand this.

I found that drinking a teaspoonful of MCT oil delays my transition to ketosis by ~4h and a tablespoonful delays it by 6h (which also brings to question how many calories do we really need). And you cannot confuse simply having ketones due to MCT oil and transitioning to ketosis, which is triggered by glucagon, the surge of which makes many people nauseous. Induction of a different metabolic state involves vast hormonal and even epigenetic changes <-- certainly for the first timers. It does not happen overnight. And induction of epigenetic changes is always hard, miserable and painful. Once they happen though, they appear to stay. Thus it becomes much easier and quicker to return, even after a long break.

Here is a quote I bumped into tonight:
"When first thrown wholly upon a diet of reindeer meat, it seems inadequate to properly nourish the system, and there is an apparent weakness and inability to perform severe exertive fatiguing journeys. But this soon passes away in the course of two or three weeks."
Ketogenic diets and physical performance
So, there is a difference between being in ketosis as a metabolic state and having ketones in bloodstream due to the fat content of your last meal. You and people on the forums are confused by this.


alecnevsky, I saw these talks just now:

http://paleohacks.co...ngs/56192#56192

There are to date no studies that carefully examine the optimum length of this keto-adapataion period, but it is clearly longer than one week and likely well advanced within 3–4 weeks. The process does not appear to happen any faster in highly trained athletes than in overweight or untrained individuals. This adaptation process also appears to require consistent adherence to carbohydrate restriction, as people who intermittently consume carbohydrates while attempting a ketogenic diet report subjectively reduced exercise tolerance.

Here is another good discussion, even though not perfect IMO: http://paleohacks.co...s#axzz2Q76NzbI3

Edited by xEva, 11 April 2013 - 03:44 AM.

[MrHappy]

Also, trimming quotes on an iphone is not a fast process. The forum software does appear to trim some of the content, however.

lol that forum software is called Michael.

Mr. Happy, what is the source of your info?

It takes 3 days to enter ketosis on a fast, not on a diet. And alecnevsky asked about adaptation to ketosis. As a mod, you should not be spewing disinfo and you should be trimming quotes

That's quite incorrect. Providing your carb intake is below 20g daily, 3 days is the normal timeframe.

My info comes from a plethora of readily searchable online material, as well as published/written works and personal experience. Simple search for you - google '3 days to enter ketosis'. Also, on pubmed, search 'is a fast necessary when initiating the ketogenic diet', 2002, Wirrell et al.

Check your material before making such flame-bait assertions in future or trying to 'rustle my jimmies'.

I did google '3 days to enter ketosis' and these are mostly people returning to a ketogenic diet, not the first timers like alecnevsky, who has been suffering for close to a month and who was not helped by your narcissistic wolverine anecdote which you ended with "your mileage may vary" sneer.

The other problem with your 'plethora of readily searchable online material' is that people confuse dietary ketones with the induced metabolic state. There is a difference.

Different people have different hormonal response rates to entering ketosis, however, as the pubmed article I linked [PMID: 12026232] showed, average was 33 hours for onset and 58 hours (ranging from 40 - 84h) to reach good ketosis. This was for young people, new to ketosis.

I'm sorry to hear Alecnevsky is having issues initiating ketosis, but if you're still not there at 3+ weeks, you're doing something wrong - it's time to take a step back and examine your diet with a magnifying glass and toothpick. Possibly there is something mis-labelled in your daily schedule, leading to the <20g carb rule isn't being followed.

YMMV referred to 'keto-flu' length. There was no sneering or anything narcissistic about my humorous comment.

I'm not sure how you read that into the context provided, but perhaps you based that on prior knowledge of alecnevsky, which I didn't have. You'll know when I'm intending to be offensive - I'm about as subtle as a sledge-hammer. The rest of the time, I'm in good humour.

[alecnevsky]

Thanks everybody. I speculate that it may be harder to induce ketosis in insulin sensitive people. It took about 2 weeks to be able to walk around pretty much, never mind attending to assignments. I did HIIT with resistance, cycling and some high-twitch running (track.) before this adaptation and I think my body was highly adapted to glucose and hyper sensitive to it. I am only now beginning to see results from ketosis. Mornings are usually high on ketostix scale and evenings are trace-moderate.

As far as my diet goes, it's been consistently under 30g/day carbs and a lot of fat (probably 30oz of coconut oil/week alone.) It's interesting that you say MCT would delay ketosis xEva, I actually saw that green tea, MCT and caffeine induce FFA oxydation in the liver, which now I see, still does not imply a fully keto-adapted metabolism. So aside from some quick energy, it seems MCT and coconut oil have little function before the 10 day mark mentioned in the paper. In fact, I think MCT is only now becoming relevant to my energy levels.

Also, I think my Whey powder delayed the adaption as well. I am still not sure about Glutamine supplementation during ketosis. Dave Asprey of bulletproof exec seems to recommend it at 10g/day but, it being a "glucose" amino acid, I wonder if it would or have thrownm me out of ketosis via gluconeogenesis. xEva you're right there is a lot of confusion regarding ketosis and some of the people tend to identify their level of adaptation exclusively to ketostik scale, which seemingly yields only marginal information.
MrHappy, I wouldn't have +1 your comments if I thought you were trying to be condescending. I appreciate the input.

Edited by alecnevsky, 11 April 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[xEva]

Different people have different hormonal response rates to entering ketosis, however, as the pubmed article I linked [PMID: 12026232] showed, average was 33 hours for onset and 58 hours (ranging from 40 - 84h) to reach good ketosis. This was for young people, new to ketosis.

Ha! Again you skew the facts, MrHappy. The study is of children and the keto diet is therapeutic, which implies the ratio you guys never even come close to. And yet you apply it to yourself. I'm glad it's children studies rather than rats though. That's a step in the right direction. Still, children have a much larger brain to body ratio than adult males (especially heavy adult males), and this ratio determines the rate and degree of induced ketosis.

The other thing about children, not shared by adults, is that they are still metabolically very flexible. Adult males have very different response rates. They are all the way in the other end of the spectrum, significantly slower than adult females. So, if you use the same draconian keto ratio, you, as an adult male, should multiply their results by at least 2, better 3.

So, this study has nothing to do with you, MrHappy. Especially considering that the ratio you personally used in your diet was about the reverse of the therapeutic ketogenic diet. Considering that you never used ketostix nor blood glucose or ketone monitor, and now you're saying that neither did you really suffer during the induction.. I seriously doubt you were ketotic enough to induce anything in the first place..



alecnevsky, yes MCT oil delayed the real transition to ketosis, even though the calories it provided were mainly in the form of ketones. It's because it is liver glycogen stores and blood glucose level that decide when this transition occurs. When fasting, any source of calories, in whatever form, will delay it.

If you had under 30g of carbs a day and the ketostix showed high levels in the morning, your issue is not whether you were in ketosis but your adaptation to it. Generally, the more draconian are the measures the faster it happens. Fasting is the quickest way and it takes about a week to 10 days for the beginners, but seasoned pros can do it in 5 days. Last time I fasted I got there in the morning of the 7th day.

MrHappy, this is the first stage of adaptation we are talking about here. I believe that's 2-3 weeks talked about by Schwatka in the quote above. Compare 7-10 days it takes on a fast with 2-3 weeks in the field on reindeer meat and then consider how long it should take on a skimpy keto ratios with tons of protein you guys usually use.. There is no way in hell that you can adapt in less than a month. It's probably more than 2, just like Chupo said. I saw on paleohacks today that Dr. Kruse believes the full adaptation to a keto diet takes longer than a year.. -?! well, maybe it's for the ex-obese and ex-sedentary folk..

[MrHappy]

Different people have different hormonal response rates to entering ketosis, however, as the pubmed article I linked [PMID: 12026232] showed, average was 33 hours for onset and 58 hours (ranging from 40 - 84h) to reach good ketosis. This was for young people, new to ketosis.

MrHappy, this is the first stage of adaptation we are talking about here. I believe that's 2-3 weeks talked about by Schwatka in the quote above. Compare 7-10 days it takes on a fast with 2-3 weeks in the field on reindeer meat and then consider how long it should take on a skimpy keto ratios with tons of protein you guys usually use.. There is no way in hell that you can adapt in less than a month. It's probably more than 2, just like Chupo said. I saw on paleohacks today that Dr. Kruse believes the full adaptation to a keto diet takes longer than a year.. -?! well, maybe it's for the ex-obese and ex-sedentary folk..

<sigh>
Not once did I discuss adaptation. I talked about onset.

So far, you've made incorrect claims about the ratios of fats:proteins:carbs being required to induce ketosis, incorrect claims about the average time to induce ketosis and resorted to ad hominem attacks to bolster your argument.

Since your assertions are completely at odds with everything I've thoroughly read and experienced, perhaps you would be so good as to quote your literature.

[Mind]

Little need for emotional rhetoric (ad hominem-type side-bars) in this thread. It is an important topic that many people who might be suffering from cancer can reference as a possible strategy. Let's keep the quality high.

[alecnevsky]

I can definitely say that my adaptation to dietary ketosis has been long and rough regardless of the strict 30 g max. I invariably get stomach pains at night about 11pm at least 3-4 times a week. I've never puked or had this much diarrhea from food in my entire life (alcohol maybe). I am now realizing that much of this keto-flu I am experiencing may be related to gut issues since the nerve in the gut communicates quite clearly with the brain. I do feel this pain (not a pang, but like a constant pre-vomit dull nausea) incredibly in my head, it's very disturbing. First, I wonder if this is due to my significant consumption of coconut and MCT oils as I usually smell (breath) like a heated piece of metal by 11 pm every day post exercise (cardio). I wake up feeling amazing but the nights are just terrible. Started supplementing glutamine but it's not helping. Should I get some good probiotics? I have no idea what's going on.

Edited by alecnevsky, 14 April 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[MrHappy]

I can definitely say that my adaptation to dietary ketosis has been long and rough regardless of the strict 30 g max. I invariably get stomach pains at night about 11pm at least 3-4 times a week. I've never puked or had this much diarrhea from food in my entire life (alcohol maybe). I am now realizing that much of this keto-flu I am experiencing may be related to gut issues since the nerve in the gut communicates quite clearly with the brain. I do feel this pain (not a pang, but like a constant pre-vomit dull nausea) incredibly in my head, it's very disturbing. First, I wonder if this is due to my significant consumption of coconut and MCT oils as I usually smell (breath) like a heated piece of metal by 11 pm every day post exercise (cardio). I wake up feeling amazing but the nights are just terrible. Started supplementing glutamine but it's not helping. Should I get some good probiotics? I have no idea what's going on.

Hmm.. I wonder how your liver is functioning at the moment? Maybe try supplementing B6, taurine and milk thistle (silymarin) for a few weeks.

I'd also try for under 20g of carbs / daily - I think that may make the difference for you.

[MrHappy]

Also, one other possibility smacking me in the face - gallstones. :(

High-fat diet would cause pressure/pain if there were difficult stones present.

[xEva]

alecnevsky, yes a tablespoonful of coconut oil on empty (or almost empty) stomach can cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea in first-time users. But this should go away with frequent use. How long exactly have you been at it?

Why won't you try to fast, or simply do not eat unless you're hungry and then eat only as much as it is necessary to satisfy your hunger? Forcing food into yourself, 'because you gotta' is counterproductive in such situations. A 24h fast can do wonders in such cases.

Then you have to consider that coconut oil maybe not for you or that maybe you take too much of it. In any rate, my advice to you: do not eat unless you're hungry and do not eat more than necessary.

[xEva]

Little need for emotional rhetoric (ad hominem-type side-bars) in this thread.

Yes, I was also wondering about the usefulness of a moderator that needs to be moderated.


MrHappy, please stop muddying the waters in this thread. And all the ad hominem here comes from you. You stated on the other thread that the ratio of your inordinately high in protein, ~900 kcal/day diet was 40:140 or 1:3.5 which is almost inverse of the classical ketogenic diet of 4:1. You also admitted that, despite being a first-timer, you did not monitor your blood glucose nor used ketosix but relied on 'smells'. In this thread you also 'bragged' that you did not suffer during the induction.

Here and on the other thread I tried to alert you that you are most likely deluding yourself about being on a ketogenic diet. You simply went on a low calorie, high protein diet and you lost some weight, which you take for another sign of ketosis, in addition to 'smells' -?!

The info you use comes from forums and blogs. The only paper you cited was about children on a classical ketogenic diet with the ratio of 4:1, the inverse of your 1:3.5

Hello?

Daily average:
120g protein
40g fat
20g carbs

Yep, that's keto. My honey smelling urine confirms it, too. Not sure where your information is coming from?

Bear in mind I'm current doing a weight-loss phase, so this will probably change in a few weeks and adding more calories and greens with breakfast. Some of this is for convenience factor, as I am on the road a lot of the day.

5-6 meals per day.

Breakfast - cottage cheese, nuts, lettuce, protein shake, usual vitamins / supplement stack.

Brunch - protein bar.

Lunch - protein bar, nuts

Linner - protein bar

Dinner - vege protein meal / tofu + beans, lettuce, low-fat cheese, tomatoes, etc. many other choices.

Supper - nuts, low-fat cheese, multi-vitamin, etc

Note that bread is non-existent, as is cereal, etc.

[alecnevsky]

I can definitely say that my adaptation to dietary ketosis has been long and rough regardless of the strict 30 g max. I invariably get stomach pains at night about 11pm at least 3-4 times a week. I've never puked or had this much diarrhea from food in my entire life (alcohol maybe). I am now realizing that much of this keto-flu I am experiencing may be related to gut issues since the nerve in the gut communicates quite clearly with the brain. I do feel this pain (not a pang, but like a constant pre-vomit dull nausea) incredibly in my head, it's very disturbing. First, I wonder if this is due to my significant consumption of coconut and MCT oils as I usually smell (breath) like a heated piece of metal by 11 pm every day post exercise (cardio). I wake up feeling amazing but the nights are just terrible. Started supplementing glutamine but it's not helping. Should I get some good probiotics? I have no idea what's going on.

Hmm.. I wonder how your liver is functioning at the moment? Maybe try supplementing B6, taurine and milk thistle (silymarin) for a few weeks.

I'd also try for under 20g of carbs / daily - I think that may make the difference for you.

Thanks MrHappy. I am currently on this once a day: 1000mg TMG (Trimethylglycine), 1000mg Artichoke Extract, B-Complex with 30mg of B-6, 1000mg buffered Vit C, + 1g potassium + 2g Sodium + 1g Magnesium orotate + 1g Taurine + 4g of Glutamine (for the gut.)

alecnevsky, yes a tablespoonful of coconut oil on empty (or almost empty) stomach can cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea in first-time users. But this should go away with frequent use. How long exactly have you been at it?

Why won't you try to fast, or simply do not eat unless you're hungry and then eat only as much as it is necessary to satisfy your hunger? Forcing food into yourself, 'because you gotta' is counterproductive in such situations. A 24h fast can do wonders in such cases.

Then you have to consider that coconut oil maybe not for you or that maybe you take too much of it. In any rate, my advice to you: do not eat unless you're hungry and do not eat more than necessary.

Thank you xEva. I've been at it for about 4 weeks now. The major "flu" went away with the second week. In fact, eating MCT and coconut oil was somewhat easier back then (probably due to my 4-times a day protein shake consumption, which I cut in half.) But ever since I've been trying to ramp up my fat:protein ratio my gut has not been able to reconcile it. I do tend to "force down" food --that is a great supposition/observation. I mostly do it b/c I am afraid to lose muscle mass and not be able to satisfy my fat:protein ratio with the former being the majority source of calories.

Do you have any suggestions on Creatine Ethyl Ester? Could/Should this be taken on Keto?

Edited by alecnevsky, 14 April 2013 - 07:34 PM.

[xEva]

...ever since I've been trying to ramp up my fat:protein ratio my gut has not been able to reconcile it. I do tend to "force down" food --that is a great supposition/observation. I mostly do it b/c I am afraid to lose muscle mass and not be able to satisfy my fat:protein ratio with the former being the majority source of calories.

And in your previous post you said that you wake up feeling great and it is only late at night, presumably after your meals high in coconut oil that you feel miserable and nauseous. That you feel so good in the morning is the clue that after an overnight fast your body sorts all those nutrients out and finds a balance, which you disturb later in the day.

And I do not understand your guys obsession with your muscles. Muscles are just as metabolically dynamic tissue as bone and fat. Everyone knows that bone is in continues state of flux, forming and dissolving. The same is true about fat. People usually are surprised to learn that lipogenesis goes on also during a fast or on a ketogenic diet, except that on a fast the rate of liposysis outweighs the rate of lipogenesis . The same dynamics apply to muscles. They continuously form and break down, just like bone and fat do. When the balance is skewed in either direction, that's real pathology to be afraid of.

You'd do much better and would adapt sooner and prob. would have greater muscle mass by now, if you were not afraid to fast, even just a bit to help you out with this metabolic change. All because of your irrational fear of temporary drop in muscle mass.

Edited by xEva, 14 April 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[MrHappy]

Little need for emotional rhetoric (ad hominem-type side-bars) in this thread.

Yes, I was also wondering about the usefulness of a moderator that needs to be moderated.


MrHappy, please stop muddying the waters in this thread. And all the ad hominem here comes from you. You stated on the other thread that the ratio of your inordinately high in protein, ~900 kcal/day diet was 40:140 or 1:3.5 which is almost inverse of the classical ketogenic diet of 4:1. You also admitted that, despite being a first-timer, you did not monitor your blood glucose nor used ketosix but relied on 'smells'. In this thread you also 'bragged' that you did not suffer during the induction.

Here and on the other thread I tried to alert you that you are most likely deluding yourself about being on a ketogenic diet. You simply went on a low calorie, high protein diet and you lost some weight, which you take for another sign of ketosis, in addition to 'smells' -?!

The info you use comes from forums and blogs. The only paper you cited was about children on a classical ketogenic diet with the ratio of 4:1, the inverse of your 1:3.5

Hello?

<rolls eyes> I think you'll find Mind was talking to you..

You know from your recently blogged fasting experience that ketosis is also induced from fasting, therefore you must realise that a high-fat ratio isn't the only thing that can trigger ketosis. As I've stated a number of times, <20g of carbs per day will induce ketosis and you will find bodybuilders employing various ratios to suit their exact purposes. For example, the higher protein maintains muscle density.

You still haven't supplied any literature that supports your position and there is plenty available that refutes it.

[MrHappy]

In essence, the ketones are supplied by your body's fat stores.

[theconomist]

Not to cut you guys from a very interesting discussion but we've kinda moved away from the initial question without really finding an answer.
It seems that neither fasting nor a ketogenic diet can ''cure'' cancer once it's diagnosable.
A ketogenic diet may significantly slow down tumor growth in some type of cancers; brain,prostate... however it seems and based on anecdotal reports that fasting does not induce the same benefits as the tumor growth accelerates once the fast is over.
Hypothetically one could fast long enough to kill the cancer cells however we don't know how long it would take ; 10,30,60 days?
If I was facing cancer I'd personally go on a fast from the moment I get diagnosed under a doctor's watch unless it's one of the cancers that feed almost exclusively on glucose; I'd simply switch to a fully ketogenic diet.
It's true that a 60 day keto diet is much easier to implement than a 60 day water fast. Anyhow I think this is an interesting area of research; the treatment of cancer as a metabolism related disease.

My take home message is that one should limit his consumption of carbs to the bare necessities (green veggies, nuts and the beneficial fruits) and in case one is fighting cancer in the hypothesis were an extened fast is impossible one should go on a ketogenic diet with as low protein as possible without inducing muscle wastage.

[alecnevsky]

Not to cut you guys from a very interesting discussion but we've kinda moved away from the initial question without really finding an answer.
It seems that neither fasting nor a ketogenic diet can ''cure'' cancer once it's diagnosable.
A ketogenic diet may significantly slow down tumor growth in some type of cancers; brain,prostate... however it seems and based on anecdotal reports that fasting does not induce the same benefits as the tumor growth accelerates once the fast is over.
Hypothetically one could fast long enough to kill the cancer cells however we don't know how long it would take ; 10,30,60 days?
If I was facing cancer I'd personally go on a fast from the moment I get diagnosed under a doctor's watch unless it's one of the cancers that feed almost exclusively on glucose; I'd simply switch to a fully ketogenic diet.
It's true that a 60 day keto diet is much easier to implement than a 60 day water fast. Anyhow I think this is an interesting area of research; the treatment of cancer as a metabolism related disease.

My take home message is that one should limit his consumption of carbs to the bare necessities (green veggies, nuts and the beneficial fruits) and in case one is fighting cancer in the hypothesis were an extened fast is impossible one should go on a ketogenic diet with as low protein as possible without inducing muscle wastage.

Sorry for my tangential questions. I am indeed interested in a prostate cancer treatment via ketosis. My relative has prostate cancer and I am also trying to figure out whether it's better to suggest he eat more to support his immune system or to induce ketotic metabolism. He's taking hormonal ejections of some kind.

Are you saying that a ketogenic diet is more effective than fasting outright for someone who has already been diagnosed with prostate cancer?

[xEva]

<rolls eyes> I think you'll find Mind was talking to you..

You know from your recently blogged fasting experience that ketosis is also induced from fasting, therefore you must realise that a high-fat ratio isn't the only thing that can trigger ketosis. As I've stated a number of times, <20g of carbs per day will induce ketosis and you will find bodybuilders employing various ratios to suit their exact purposes. For example, the higher protein maintains muscle density.

You still haven't supplied any literature that supports your position and there is plenty available that refutes it.

"I know from my recent blogged fasting experience?" lol To your information, through the last 5-6 years, I've read everything about fasting and starvation, starting with Cahill and Owen in 1960s and ending with Veech in the late 1990 thru early 2000 and then -- get this: almost every study that referenced them in turn. In the process, I also got to know about the ketogenic diets and learned about the metabolism. And I told the guys here long ago (you MrHappy were not here yet) that if you want to understand metabolism, you start with understanding what goes on during starvation. It is ridiculous how many people, including 'experts' like this very thread demonstrated, have very little clue how the body works and how it got to work this way.

In essence, the ketones are supplied by your body's fat stores.

lol sounds like you've just made this 'discovery' for yourself. You have a lot to learn. You've just tried for the first time in your life a ketogenic diet. And you made some mistakes. Get this: while every low calorie diet results in weight loss, not every low carb diet is a ketogenic diet. Your inordinately high protein intake sabotaged your efforts.

[MrHappy]

<rolls eyes> I think you'll find Mind was talking to you..

You know from your recently blogged fasting experience that ketosis is also induced from fasting, therefore you must realise that a high-fat ratio isn't the only thing that can trigger ketosis. As I've stated a number of times, <20g of carbs per day will induce ketosis and you will find bodybuilders employing various ratios to suit their exact purposes. For example, the higher protein maintains muscle density.

You still haven't supplied any literature that supports your position and there is plenty available that refutes it.

"I know from my recent blogged fasting experience?" lol To your information, through the last 5-6 years, I've read everything about fasting and starvation, starting with Cahill and Owen in 1960s and ending with Veech in the late 1990 thru early 2000 and then -- get this: almost every study that referenced them in turn. In the process, I also got to know about the ketogenic diets and learned about the metabolism. And I told the guys here long ago (you MrHappy were not here yet) that if you want to understand metabolism, you start with understanding what goes on during starvation. It is ridiculous how many people, including 'experts' like this very thread demonstrated, have very little clue how the body works and how it got to work this way.

In essence, the ketones are supplied by your body's fat stores.

lol sounds like you've just made this 'discovery' for yourself. You have a lot to learn. You've just tried for the first time in your life a ketogenic diet. And you made some mistakes. Get this: while every low calorie diet results in weight loss, not every low carb diet is a ketogenic diet. Your inordinately high protein intake sabotaged your efforts.

I'm spelling it out, because you keep missing the fundamental point. If you want to continue this discussion, let's create another thread and not pollute this one further.

[xEva]

Not to cut you guys from a very interesting discussion but we've kinda moved away from the initial question without really finding an answer.
It seems that neither fasting nor a ketogenic diet can ''cure'' cancer once it's diagnosable.
A ketogenic diet may significantly slow down tumor growth in some type of cancers; brain,prostate... however it seems and based on anecdotal reports that fasting does not induce the same benefits as the tumor growth accelerates once the fast is over.
Hypothetically one could fast long enough to kill the cancer cells however we don't know how long it would take ; 10,30,60 days?
If I was facing cancer I'd personally go on a fast from the moment I get diagnosed under a doctor's watch unless it's one of the cancers that feed almost exclusively on glucose; I'd simply switch to a fully ketogenic diet.
It's true that a 60 day keto diet is much easier to implement than a 60 day water fast. Anyhow I think this is an interesting area of research; the treatment of cancer as a metabolism related disease.

See, Mr.Economist, if you did a search of this site with your question in mind, you'd find a number of threads on the topic. I recall posting several studies, years ago. One of them, a case study of a woman with brain cancer who was put on a ketogenic diet (~800 kcal/day, if I remember correctly and with right ratio, not what MrHappy used). She was on it for ~6 months to a year (-?) and her cancer went in remission. However, about 6 months after she switched to a normal diet, the tumor resumed its growth.

Then, there is a thread, which I also started, where the study by Seyfried with which you started this thread is discussed, including his interview with Jimmy Moore.

Then, I recall posting other studies (by Fontana -?) about cancer and fasting.

You would like someone to provide you with an answer. And probably just like MrHappy here, you want someone to dig out all those references for you. This is understandable. I too, when I came here, was hoping to find answers to what interested me. My interest was fasting. Having had no such luck, I made a serious effort to find those answers for myself.

So, if you really want to discuss this subject, you could make an effort to find those threads and post the links here.

Edited by xEva, 15 April 2013 - 02:07 AM.

[xEva]

I'm spelling it out, because you keep missing the fundamental point. If you want to continue this discussion, let's create another thread and not pollute this one further.

The fundamental point you in your naivete is missing is that a ketogenic diet was invented to mimic starvation and that high protein intake not only prevents ketosis by bolstering glucose production, but is actually harmful to health. Google 'rabbit starvation'.

[MrHappy]

I'm spelling it out, because you keep missing the fundamental point. If you want to continue this discussion, let's create another thread and not pollute this one further.

The fundamental point you in your naivete is missing is that a ketogenic diet was invented to mimic starvation and that high protein intake not only prevents ketosis by bolstering glucose production, but is actually harmful to health. Google 'rabbit starvation'.

You're welcome to take this discussion here:
http://www.longecity...open-discussion

Everyone else welcome, too.