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Lostfalco's Extensive Nootropic Experiments [Curated]

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#661 EncyclopediaBrown

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:11 PM

Hey guys, check this book out as well.

The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World




http://www.amazon.co...nd his emissary

The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World is a 2009 book written by Iain McGilchrist that deals with the specialist hemispheric functioning of the brain. The differing world views of the right and left brain (the "Master" and "emissary" in the title, respectively) have, according to the author, shaped Western culture since the time of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato, and the growing conflict between these views has implications for the way the modern world is changing.[1] In part, McGilchrist's book, which is the product of twenty years of research,[2] reviews the evidence of previous related research and theories, and based on this and cultural evidence, the author arrives at his own conclusions.
The Master and His Emissary received mostly favourable reviews upon its publication. Critics praised the book as being a landmark publication that could alter readers' perspective of how they viewed the world; A.C. Grayling, however, commented about the book that "the findings of brain science are nowhere near fine-grained enough yet to support the large psychological and cultural conclusions Iain McGilchrist draws".[2]

http://en.wikipedia....nd_His_Emissary
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#662 EncyclopediaBrown

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:19 PM

Also anyone try any of these mind machines

Reviews look great
Mindplace Procyon AVS System


http://www.amazon.co...78224779&sr=1-1

Found a bunch more here

http://www.mindmachi...tionSuperstore/

I found these after googling James Clayton Roberts Device.

“Just A Light”


By James Clayton Roberts


http://www.mindmachi...m/just-a-light/

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#663 swen

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:30 PM

I just recieved my 24 led to test this protocol :)

Is the protocol still on spot F3 + F4 for four minutes with a few days off per week? Looking forward to test this, and of course will report back with results.

#664 Nattzor

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:38 PM

I just recieved my 24 led to test this protocol :)

Is the protocol still on spot F3 + F4 for four minutes with a few days off per week? Looking forward to test this, and of course will report back with results.


Can you please try to do it more objective? Measure results before/after, and do a ABAB (or more) protocol?
A = On LLLT, B = Off LLLT

#665 lostfalco

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:14 PM

I just recieved my 24 led to test this protocol :)

Is the protocol still on spot F3 + F4 for four minutes with a few days off per week? Looking forward to test this, and of course will report back with results.

I posted a few of my (provisional) recommendations here. I hope this works well for you. =) http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/

#666 swen

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:26 PM

I just recieved my 24 led to test this protocol :)

Is the protocol still on spot F3 + F4 for four minutes with a few days off per week? Looking forward to test this, and of course will report back with results.


Can you please try to do it more objective? Measure results before/after, and do a ABAB (or more) protocol?
A = On LLLT, B = Off LLLT


I'm certainly interested in doing this objective and share my results.

Is there a quick writeup regarding measuring and ABAB protocol?

#667 gwern

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:39 PM

I posted a few of my (provisional) recommendations here. I hope this works well for you. =) http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/


So you write

5. 850nm, 96 LED, 9 individual "regions" on sides, top, and back of head AND 850nm, 48 LED, 5 individual spots on forehead along hairline (roughly).


You think people should be using two different sets of LED simultaneously? What if we wanted to use just one? Together, that's like $60, and more clutter.

#668 Nattzor

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:43 PM

I just recieved my 24 led to test this protocol :)

Is the protocol still on spot F3 + F4 for four minutes with a few days off per week? Looking forward to test this, and of course will report back with results.


Can you please try to do it more objective? Measure results before/after, and do a ABAB (or more) protocol?
A = On LLLT, B = Off LLLT


I'm certainly interested in doing this objective and share my results.

Is there a quick writeup regarding measuring and ABAB protocol?


http://www.gwern.net...inding-yourself - There you have a bit if you want to blind yourself (if you've figured out on how to do it). (Gwern's site, great dude)

http://www.reddit.co.../1d40a5/prl853/ - Read the "Testing" section, it'll hopefully explain a bit and give suggestions (my write-up).

#669 gwern

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:09 PM

Randomization is trivial, obviously: you just flip a coin before using the LEDs or not.

Blinding is the hard part - it's not as easy with powders or dissolvable liquids. I don't see any simple easy way to blind it... The closest I've been able to think of is to find some sort of power strip which can internally randomize whether it's on or off (apparently there's a whole niche for 'random lamp timers' for homeowners terrified of burglars breaking in while they're away), plug the LED lamp into that, put on a very tight goggle/mask, and then 'use' the lamp as normal.

But this depends on there being zero sound or heat from the lamp or powerstrip. People with a LED set probably already know whether they can tell whether it's been turned on or not, and if they're not sure, could test this by doing something like wrapping a scarf around your eyes and asking a friend to turn on and off the LED lamp in place while you try to guess whether it's on or off.

#670 aarfai

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:19 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding it seems that Methylene Blue can become a different (toxic) compound when activated by red or infrared light. In regards to TULIP, CoQ10 might be a better idea.

Gwern, how can I get you my DNB scores?

Edited by aarfai, 03 September 2013 - 06:20 PM.


#671 OpaqueMind

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:41 PM

Blinding is the hard part - it's not as easy with powders or dissolvable liquids. I don't see any simple easy way to blind it... The closest I've been able to think of is to find some sort of power strip which can internally randomize whether it's on or off (apparently there's a whole niche for 'random lamp timers' for homeowners terrified of burglars breaking in while they're away), plug the LED lamp into that, put on a very tight goggle/mask, and then 'use' the lamp as normal.


Even if one were to blind oneself, wouldn't the fact that the effects are not immediate but accumulative over sessions/time affect both the results and the way that you perceive the treatment and therefore potentially the (placebo) effects?

#672 gwern

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:44 PM

Even if one were to blind oneself, wouldn't the fact that the effects are not immediate but accumulative over sessions/time affect both the results and the way that you perceive the treatment and therefore potentially the (placebo) effects?


Not really. Just means you'd have to randomize blocks of multiple days and use washout periods to let oneself return to baseline. Actually you'd need to do this for plain randomization too, it's not related to blinding.

#673 EncyclopediaBrown

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:54 PM

I posted a few of my (provisional) recommendations here. I hope this works well for you. =) http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/


So you write

5. 850nm, 96 LED, 9 individual "regions" on sides, top, and back of head AND 850nm, 48 LED, 5 individual spots on forehead along hairline (roughly).


You think people should be using two different sets of LED simultaneously? What if we wanted to use just one? Together, that's like $60, and more clutter.



Can someone draw up a diagram too? It seems like 96 LED is larger than the 48 LED, I was wondering why we would do more individual spots with that.

Thanks guys, all your help/work is appreciated.

#674 Nattzor

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:01 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding it seems that Methylene Blue can become a different (toxic) compound when activated by red or infrared light. In regards to TULIP, CoQ10 might be a better idea.


You might be right, but seems to be dependent on wavelenght (as you said).


Barrett's oesophagus (BO) carries an increased risk of progression to oesophageal adenocarcinoma. Chromoendoscopy with methylene blue (MB) can be used to facilitate identification of BO and target areas for biopsy. If photoexcited, MB can generate reactive oxygen species and genotoxic photodegradation products leading to DNA damage. We have previously demonstrated that levels of DNA damage are increased in BO following MB chromoendoscopy. The aim of this study was to investigate whether DNA damage, as measured by the comet assay, can be minimized during chromoendoscopy by varying MB concentration and light wavelength using an in vitro model. OE33 cells were treated with MB (0.015–15 mM) and exposed to white light (WL). Cells were also illuminated with WL fractions (580–700, 480–580, 350–480, <575, <610 and <688 nm) in the presence of MB. At clinically relevant concentrations, WL illumination of MB (15 mM) caused significant DNA damage in vitro (P < 0.001). Illumination of MB with red light (580–700 nm) also stimulated high levels of DNA damage in OE33 cells (P < 0.001). This effect was not observed with green or blue light. Filtering WL to remove red light wavelengths (>575 nm) reduced DNA damage and apoptosis to control levels in MB-treated cells. In addition, reducing the concentration of MB 10-fold markedly reduced the DNA-damaging effect of MB in vitro. The results show that photoactivation of MB by red light is responsible for the majority of DNA damage. Simple modifications to MB chromoendoscopy, such as filtering out red light from endoscopic WL or reducing MB concentration, are likely to limit DNA damage induced by the procedure.

- http://mutage.oxford...t/24/3/253.long

When they used the low dose MB the damage was reduced significant (P < 0.001)

Furthermore, the amount of DNA damage arising from incubation with solutions of MB at concentrations equal to or <1.5 mM were not significantly different from the control samples either maintained in the dark or illuminated in WL in the absence of dye.

http://mutage.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/253/F1.expansion.html



http://i.imgur.com/kV7XTuL.png
- http://www.researchg...5cc444ec834.pdf


The research on NIR seems to lack though (except some being used in surgeries).

To be safe: Do not take MB when you're doing LLLT, but I doubt it'lll do much damage if you use dosages in the mcg range.


But thanks for writing that, I had not read about it earler.

#675 BigPapaChakra

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:09 PM

If it means anything, I found HAM-D/HAM-A questionnaires online, and since I have HPPD symptoms I figured I'd answer all the questions on both as honestly as possible. Next week I will do them again (it's been 1 full week). Probably not nearly controlled enough, but I can tell just by the increased mood and a bunch of other things that it's already working. Even if somehow it were just a placebo affect, I'd be glad to receive a placebo that helps me. In fact, there is evidence that KNOWING you are being affected by placebo may still produces beneficial effects: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21203519
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#676 OpaqueMind

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:32 PM

Even if one were to blind oneself, wouldn't the fact that the effects are not immediate but accumulative over sessions/time affect both the results and the way that you perceive the treatment and therefore potentially the (placebo) effects?


Not really. Just means you'd have to randomize blocks of multiple days and use washout periods to let oneself return to baseline. Actually you'd need to do this for plain randomization too, it's not related to blinding.


Right but the most profound effects only occur over a period of consistent dosing and considerable time, which is consistent with the effects of neurogenesis, mitochondrial upregulation, gene expression changes etc. Though I don't know if that has any bearing on placebo controlled experimentation.

#677 gwern

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:38 PM

Right but the most profound effects only occur over a period of consistent dosing and considerable time, which is consistent with the effects of neurogenesis, mitochondrial upregulation, gene expression changes etc. Though I don't know if that has any bearing on placebo controlled experimentation.


Just means you need longer experiments. In any case, that's mostly moot: there are claims littered throughout this thread claiming acute immediate effects in hours and days. If one can't detect *those*, it casts considerable doubt on any claims of long-term effects.

#678 lostfalco

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:42 PM

I wanted to summarize this article, but it's just too damn good! Please read the WHOLE thing if you have time and let your jaw hit the floor. It's only a page or two. Holy mother eff bomb! http://www.ninds.nih...ia_07252013.htm

#679 lostfalco

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:49 PM

I posted a few of my (provisional) recommendations here. I hope this works well for you. =) http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/


So you write

5. 850nm, 96 LED, 9 individual "regions" on sides, top, and back of head AND 850nm, 48 LED, 5 individual spots on forehead along hairline (roughly).


You think people should be using two different sets of LED simultaneously? What if we wanted to use just one? Together, that's like $60, and more clutter.

Hey, what's up gwern! Let me give you my quick summary and then a longer answer for you to check out if you have time. =)

QUICK SUMMARY
Quick Summary: one $8-$12 LED array should work.
My Opinion: Full brain stimulation with both is better.

EXTENDED DISCUSSION
My Reasons:
A. Efficacy
1. One laser at two locations seemed to be safe and effective in the Barrett/Gonzalez-Lima study.

2. Whole brain stimulation seemed to be safe and effective in the Naeser pilot study.

B. Rationale
Reason 1: One brain cell may have one thousand (plus) mitochondria.
Reason 2: These mitochondria are positioned at points on the entire cell (on axons, dendrites, etc.).
Reason 3: Enhanced mitochondrial function (ATP, energy, etc.) at many or all of these points will foster brain connectivity.
Reason 4: Energy and brain connectivity have been postulated as major contributors to intelligence (just as you mentioned).
Reason 5: LEDs simultaneously stimulate a greater number and greater distribution of mitochondria (most likely...they don't seem to penetrate as far though).
Reason 6: If Reason 5, then greater intelligence.
Reason 7: My subjective anecdotal experience seems to support this.
Disclaimer: This is scientifically inspired anecdote. This is NOT science. I have a supreme respect for the methods of science and I try to always make it clear what I am doing and not doing.

I hope that gives you a general idea of where I'm coming from gwern. It's really cool that you are even looking into this. I think all of us on this thread have a ton of respect for you. Any more questions, please feel free to ask. Thanks man!

Edited by lostfalco, 03 September 2013 - 07:55 PM.


#680 gwern

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:07 PM

Hey, what's up gwern! Let me give you my quick summary and then a longer answer for you to check out if you have time. =)

QUICK SUMMARY
Quick Summary: one $8-$12 LED array should work.
My Opinion: Full brain stimulation with both is better.

EXTENDED DISCUSSION
My Reasons:
A. Efficacy
1. One laser at two locations seemed to be safe and effective in the Barrett/Gonzalez-Lima study.

2. Whole brain stimulation seemed to be safe and effective in the Naeser pilot study.


Yes, I'd figured you'd say better, but how much better? A lot? A little? eg. is the difference between using the 48 vs 48+96 bigger than the difference between using the 48 vs nothing?

Some money came in and I thought I'd buy the cheap one today, but I don't want to buy one and do some randomized experiments and turn up inconclusive results and have people saying 'ah well, what can you expect? You were using the crummy 48-LED version, if you wanted real results you should've gotten the 96-LED version!'

#681 gerass

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:08 PM

I wanted to summarize this article, but it's just too damn good! Please read the WHOLE thing if you have time and let your jaw hit the floor. It's only a page or two. Holy mother eff bomb! http://www.ninds.nih...ia_07252013.htm



Thanks for the link great info

#682 lostfalco

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:19 PM

Hey, what's up gwern! Let me give you my quick summary and then a longer answer for you to check out if you have time. =)

QUICK SUMMARY
Quick Summary: one $8-$12 LED array should work.
My Opinion: Full brain stimulation with both is better.

EXTENDED DISCUSSION
My Reasons:
A. Efficacy
1. One laser at two locations seemed to be safe and effective in the Barrett/Gonzalez-Lima study.

2. Whole brain stimulation seemed to be safe and effective in the Naeser pilot study.


Yes, I'd figured you'd say better, but how much better? A lot? A little? eg. is the difference between using the 48 vs 48+96 bigger than the difference between using the 48 vs nothing?

Some money came in and I thought I'd buy the cheap one today, but I don't want to buy one and do some randomized experiments and turn up inconclusive results and have people saying 'ah well, what can you expect? You were using the crummy 48-LED version, if you wanted real results you should've gotten the 96-LED version!'

The difference between 0 and 48 is greater than the difference between 48 and 48+96...in my experience. Aarfai? Opaque? Mettmett? What have you guys experienced here?

There are some additional complicating factors that I'm sure you're aware of...which spots are you stimulating? how many total spots? etc. It almost seems simpler to just go for the whole brain. What do you think here gwern?

Edited by lostfalco, 03 September 2013 - 08:25 PM.


#683 OpaqueMind

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:27 PM

I haven't yet invested in the multi-LED array cause the vetro stays faithful, plus I'm on a break for a while while I take a course of NSI. Do you think it would be a worthwhile investment, that is, is it that much better than the laser? Given the diffuseness of the light pattern compared to the constricted light of the laser it makes sense that it would be substantially more effective, not to mention easier to cover your whole head.

My experience may still be somewhat relevant though - using the laser I've zapped the forehead and both the forehead and rest of the head, in varying combinations, but never just the rest of the head as I experienced frontal lobe stimulation to be the most beneficial of all, at least in its immediate effects.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 03 September 2013 - 08:29 PM.


#684 gwern

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:41 PM

The difference between 0 and 48 is greater than the difference between 48 and 48+96...in my experience. Aarfai? Opaque? Mettmett? What have you guys experienced here?

There are some additional complicating factors that I'm sure you're aware of...which spots are you stimulating? how many total spots? etc. It almost seems simpler to just go for the whole brain. What do you think here gwern?


If you're an advocate of 48+96 rather than 96 replacing 48 entirely, it might be a good idea to just buy the 48 to start out with and only upgrade to the 96 if results are positive?

#685 lostfalco

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:44 PM

The difference between 0 and 48 is greater than the difference between 48 and 48+96...in my experience. Aarfai? Opaque? Mettmett? What have you guys experienced here?

There are some additional complicating factors that I'm sure you're aware of...which spots are you stimulating? how many total spots? etc. It almost seems simpler to just go for the whole brain. What do you think here gwern?


If you're an advocate of 48+96 rather than 96 replacing 48 entirely, it might be a good idea to just buy the 48 to start out with and only upgrade to the 96 if results are positive?

Yup

#686 mettmett

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:59 PM

Hey, what's up gwern! Let me give you my quick summary and then a longer answer for you to check out if you have time. =)

QUICK SUMMARY
Quick Summary: one $8-$12 LED array should work.
My Opinion: Full brain stimulation with both is better.

EXTENDED DISCUSSION
My Reasons:
A. Efficacy
1. One laser at two locations seemed to be safe and effective in the Barrett/Gonzalez-Lima study.

2. Whole brain stimulation seemed to be safe and effective in the Naeser pilot study.


Yes, I'd figured you'd say better, but how much better? A lot? A little? eg. is the difference between using the 48 vs 48+96 bigger than the difference between using the 48 vs nothing?

Some money came in and I thought I'd buy the cheap one today, but I don't want to buy one and do some randomized experiments and turn up inconclusive results and have people saying 'ah well, what can you expect? You were using the crummy 48-LED version, if you wanted real results you should've gotten the 96-LED version!'

The difference between 0 and 48 is greater than the difference between 48 and 48+96...in my experience. Aarfai? Opaque? Mettmett? What have you guys experienced here?

There are some additional complicating factors that I'm sure you're aware of...which spots are you stimulating? how many total spots? etc. It almost seems simpler to just go for the whole brain. What do you think here gwern?


I started with the ebay laser and stimulated the f3 and f4 locations then form there ventured to more. I agree whole brain stimulation is better which is why i invested in (2) 96 LEDS. With so much area to cover I prefer the bigger leds to save time. It is way more convenient. I do however use the laser to spot treat the RAS and the spot between the brows since it has better penetration. Yes, something is better than nothing. If you want to be cheap the 48 will work, but personally I'm working towards more 96's so i can fix them together in some sort of helmet with a couple lasers at my key points and see where that takes me.

oh and great find on that mitochondria article falco

Edited by mettmett, 03 September 2013 - 09:08 PM.

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#687 aarfai

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:01 PM

In my opinion both the 48 and 96 LEDs lights are effective however I find that I have more control when using the 48 LED. Perhaps I'll try two 96 LEDs once I become more accustomed to the routine.

Mettmett, how and where do you spot treat RAS?

#688 mettmett

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:07 AM

In my opinion both the 48 and 96 LEDs lights are effective however I find that I have more control when using the 48 LED. Perhaps I'll try two 96 LEDs once I become more accustomed to the routine.

Mettmett, how and where do you spot treat RAS?


I just do it with my laser for extra penetration and point it right under the back of my skull straight ahead. Sure its deep in there but I used St. Johns wort as a test to see if increasing photosensitivity would help stimulate better. I did that last night for my LED/laser session and I felt pretty damn good today. A couple hours ago i felt kind of high/giddy which seemingly came out of nowhere..Now im pretty much baseleine, i feel good but its more of a lesser state of that mood. Note: I do no drugs and rarely drink alcohol. All I ate today was grapefruit, which led me to researching the benefits and I came across this:

"Grapefruit juice, and grapefruit in general, is a potent inhibitor of the cytochrome P450CYP3A4 enzyme, which can affect the metabolism of a variety of drugs, increasing their bioavailability" maybe this can help us get more bang for our buck from supplements.
http://en.wikipedia....rapefruit_juice

this was pretty cool too "Naringenin helps restore health to damaged DNA by inducing two enzymes that repair DNA during the replication stage. These enzymes, 8-oxoguanine-DNA glycosylase 1 (hOGG1), and DNA polymerase beta (DNA poly beta), are both involved in the DNA base excision repair (BER) pathway."

naringenin is found in grapefruit. check out this site for more if your interested:
http://www.whfoods.c...odspice&dbid=25
I didnt realize grapefruit were so damn healthy.

#689 mettmett

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:26 AM

I wanted to summarize this article, but it's just too damn good! Please read the WHOLE thing if you have time and let your jaw hit the floor. It's only a page or two. Holy mother eff bomb! http://www.ninds.nih...ia_07252013.htm


I found this article about syntaphilin http://www.alzforum....ail.asp?id=1730

So if your mitochondria population isn't dense enough and staying docked on the axons, then it can create problems?
Is increasing syntaphilin what we want? Do the levels of this protein fluctuate naturally in the brain or is it always supposed to be at a certain amount.

i found this too http://www.fitzgeral...g-80r-1089.html

hmm on second thought im gonna say no "Functionally, overexpression of syntaphilin in cultured hippocampal neurons inhibits neurotransmitter release; furthermore, injection of the syntaphilin syntaxin-binding peptide into the presynaptic cell body of superior cervical ganglion neurons in culture results in the inhibition of neurotransmission,"

http://www.jbc.org/c...9/18/18911.full

Edited by mettmett, 04 September 2013 - 01:32 AM.


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#690 phil8462643

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 02:59 AM

my first day with the 96. I right now have a feeling resemblant of the way I felt when I was 21. Woke up 2 hrs earlier today. This might all be placebo. I will post another update soon.
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