4019 replies to this topic

[peakplasma]

Even so, it seems I am within the safe range, unless my calculations/understanding are incorrect (they may well be, as I'm not used to this kind of thinking!). Hmmm looking now back it seems the laser itself had a power density of 7.5mW/cm2, much lower than the energy density of the vetrolaser.

I'm rather sure that 7.5mw/cm2 refers to the power density delivered to the surface of the brain after holding the variability of scalp/skull thickness. There are detailed calculations if you look in the patent above Table 1 you will see they used 358-568 mW/cm2 at the scalp to achieve a target of 10mw/cm2 at the brain.

Here is a direct quote,

Taking into account the attenuation of energy as it propagates from the skin surface, through body tissue, bone, and fluids, to the subdermal target tissue, surface power densities preferably between about 10 mW/cm² to about 10 W/cm², or more preferably between about 100 mW/cm² to about 500 mW/cm², will typically be used to attain the selected power densities at the subdermal target tissue.

If you're still a bit concerned (like I am) then limit your exposure time to only 10-15 seconds at a time.

[chung_pao]

Good to see some exciting, experimental research going on here. The transcranial ultrasound theory of performance enhancement seems very promising.
In my wishful thinking, it ought to confer some kind of stimulus that can be used for memory formation and other exciting mechanisms.

For us who can't really keep up with the theory behind the practices, please summarize your conclusions in a replicable formula if you find anything revolutionary
"Eat a few eggs, take 5g of piracetam and then Attach this [link] TCU-device to your skull while reading to activate your infinite eidetic memory."

Edited by chung_pao, 23 May 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[peakplasma]

Good to see some exciting, experimental research going on here. The transcranial ultrasound theory of performance enhancement seems very promising.
In my wishful thinking, it ought to confer some kind of stimulus that can be used for memory formation and other exciting mechanisms.

For us who can't really keep up with the theory behind the practices, please summarize your conclusions in a replicable formula if you find anything revolutionary
"Eat a few eggs, take 5g of piracetam and then Attach this [link] TCU-device to your skull while reading to activate your infinite eidetic memory."

I definitely can't establish a direct causal link but I sure learned a lot about lasers, light and the physics of waves and power in the last couple days.

[peakplasma]

Anyway, can people post more of their experiences using these lasers or any similar setup? A few have posted that they got one and used it to obtain some sort of results. Does anyone else have consistent positive results? Also, to everyone, what do you guys think of the stuff I linked from amazon? Not strong enough energy density? Amazon seems to have mostly glowing reviews of light therapy items all across the board, which at least says something.

None of those look particularly good.

I'd recommend the one I purchased on e-Bay. It is just $30 for a pretty powerful 200mW 830nm laser module plus a mount.

In the case that you don't like using it on yourself you can always just use it as a DIY night vision device - I tried last night and it was very cool.

[travis_w]

None of those look particularly good.

I'd recommend the one I purchased on e-Bay. It is just $30 for a pretty powerful 200mW 830nm laser module plus a mount.

In the case that you don't like using it on yourself you can always just use it as a DIY night vision device - I tried last night and it was very cool.

Have you been getting good results from yours?

[peakplasma]

None of those look particularly good.

I'd recommend the one I purchased on e-Bay. It is just $30 for a pretty powerful 200mW 830nm laser module plus a mount.

In the case that you don't like using it on yourself you can always just use it as a DIY night vision device - I tried last night and it was very cool.

Have you been getting good results from yours?

Effects have been positive but subtle; however, I have only used it for a few short 10-15 second sessions.

You would probably have more profound results with 2-4 minute sessions on multiple spots like in the research studies. In the depression study they used 808nm at 250mw/cm2 applied for 4 minutes on two different spots - that is 60 j/cm2 which is 10-30x more energy density than the 2-6 j/cm2 I applied.

[travis_w]

You would probably have more profound results with 2-4 minute sessions on multiple spots like in the research studies. In the depression study they used 808nm at 250mw/cm2 applied for 4 minutes on two different spots - that is 60 j/cm2 which is 10-30x more energy density than the 2-6 j/cm2 I applied.

Do you plan on trying that out sometime soon? I'd just like to see more personal accounts from members of this forum before making purchases.

I usually go all out and spend a bit of money when I finally make a decision, trying different ways to make whatever I am trying work... so I'd like to see more than one or three people claim that lasering their brain with an ebay/amazon laser gives them positive results.

This is also one of the most silly sounding candidates for the roommate test. (The "what response?" test where your average, normal roommate asks you what you are doing when he catches you using one of the treatments)

Taking 4 spoonfuls of piracetam, roommate response: "...meh, supplements."

Taking 4 spoonfuls of piracetam and about 15 other pills a few times a day: "...meh, this guy takes too much supplements."

When he accidentally opens your order of adderall from the silk road and sees the price on a slip of paper: "...meh, this rich weirdo puts way too much crap in his body"

Seeing you pour a couple drops of methlyne blue (where on the side of the bottle it says "fish tank cleaner") into your water bottle for the day: "dude are you okay? did the doctor recommend that stuff?"

Seeing you shut your bedroom door with the tdcs electrodes on your head: "...what the hell? (knocks on door) dude what are you doing? why is there a battery strapped to your arm?"

Seeing you sit at your computer with three taped-together IR sight lasers and an odd headband arrangement to hold it in place: "OKAY DUDE WHAT THE FUCK? WHY DO YOU HAVE MY GUN SIGHTS BANDED TO YOUR HEAD? ARE YOU LAZER-ING YOUR HEAD? WHAT IS THIS CRAP?"

[peakplasma]

I usually go all out and spend a bit of money when I finally make a decision, trying different ways to make whatever I am trying work... so I'd like to see more than one or three people claim that lasering their brain with an ebay/amazon laser gives them positive results.

I can't understand that.

There is already substantial research showing positive results and there are multiple promising treatments in ongoing clinical trials.

Check out this one for NeuroThera® it is a FDA Phase 3 trial with 1,000 participants just about to finish. Even if it fails to hit its endpoint, getting this far means it is more effective than 90% of nootropics.

[Reformed-Redan]

Interesting:
http://www.kurzweila...-infrared-light

[peakplasma]

Interesting:
http://www.kurzweila...-infrared-light

Awesome.

Also, the clinical trial for transcranial infrared laser therapy for Major Depression study is recruiting if anyone is interested.

http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT01538199

Edited by peakplasma, 24 May 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[lostfalco]

Another transcranial ulstrasound study: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23596496

Conclusion: No differences in the neural function deficit scale between the two groups was observed before treatment, however, on the 7th and 14th days after treatment, a significant decrease was evident in the treatment group (P<0.01). The overall response rate was 100% in the treatment group and 74.2% in the control group, with a significant difference (P<0.01). Transcranial ultrasound is able to contribute to the thrombolytic effects of UK and prevent the progression of thrombi, subsequently aiding the recovery of neural functions.

A friend of mine recently had a baby and I was able to borrow this device from her. http://www.medexsupp...oducts_id=23548

Fortunately, she even had the 8mhz probe. So, I'm researching like crazy before I am this thing at my head. I've actually been surprised at how common transcranial ultrasound really is. Anyway, if anyone wants to look at some of the literature and share your findings with me, I'd appreciate it. It'd be nice to have some third person perspectives on this before I take my brain hypersonic. ha

Interesting:
http://www.kurzweila...-infrared-light

Wow, that's really cool. Thanks yada.

[lostfalco]

Interesting:
http://www.kurzweila...-infrared-light

Awesome.

Also, the clinical trial for transcranial infrared laser therapy for Major Depression study is recruiting if anyone is interested.

http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT01538199

Nice find peak.

Hey, check this out. I think this is one of the actual lasers used in one of the stroke studies. It's only $1,750 right now on ebay. ha
http://www.ebay.com/...=item4d0880232a

[peakplasma]

Interesting:
http://www.kurzweila...-infrared-light

Awesome.

Also, the clinical trial for transcranial infrared laser therapy for Major Depression study is recruiting if anyone is interested.

http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT01538199

Nice find peak.

Hey, check this out. I think this is one of the actual lasers used in one of the stroke studies. It's only $1,750 right now on ebay. ha
http://www.ebay.com/...=item4d0880232a

Yup. I sent the seller a message a few days ago to figure out some specs but he hasn't responded yet.

It seems really powerful so it must have a heat sink and a fan to prevent skin burns.

[Sunwind]

I've not heard of Pregnenolone before, wikipedia says it has potent anxiolytic effects, and there seems to be bottles of it on amazon.. does it actually work well as an axiolytic? what's a good dose for anxiety?

[lostfalco]

Pregnenolone is the fundamental neurosteroid. It's surprisingly understudied at this point and should be considered a somewhat risky supplement experiment if you choose to try it. Recommended dosages are all over the place from 5mg (Sahelian) to 500mg (schizophrenia studies) to 700mg (there's evidence it's safe up to this level). Some people also recommend cycling it (5 days on, 2 days off) while some of the studies report no side effects with 500mg per day for 3+ years. Make sure you do your homework and weigh the risk/benefit cost of trying it. I notice mood boosting effects from it and it makes my brain feel very fast (possible myelination boost?). Here are some links to get you started.

http://www.lef.org/m...nenolone_01.htm

http://www.raysaheli...egnenolone.html

http://articles.merc...7/adrenals.aspx

http://www.life-enha...th-pregnenolone

Here's a quote of mine from a previous post in this thread based on my studies of current pregnenolone research.

"Since there's so much conflicting info on the internet about dosing, I went to the university library near my apartment today and looked up the official dosing used in various studies. Here's what I found. All the numbers are daily amounts usually half taken in the morning and half taken at lunch.

Escalating dose: 100mg (2wks), 300mg (2wks), 500mg (4wks) (Marx, 2009)
100mg for 8 weeks or 500mg for 8 weeks (Savitz, 2010); 5 of the patients took 500mg daily for 3 years
30mg for 8 weeks or 200mg for 8 weeks (Ritsner, 2010)
There were no major side effects reported and the conclusion was that 500mg/day was well tolerated...(Marx, 2009); (Savitz, 2010); (Freeman, 1950); (McGavack, 1951)

Anyway, most of the beneficial effects were reported at the highest dose but obviously this is a very limited set of studies. Additionally, these almost all dealt with schizophrenia patients. So, that's what I found. Weekly escalation might be a thought, but long term safety is based on only 5 patients. That's where the info stands right now."

[lostfalco]

Good to see some exciting, experimental research going on here. The transcranial ultrasound theory of performance enhancement seems very promising.
In my wishful thinking, it ought to confer some kind of stimulus that can be used for memory formation and other exciting mechanisms.

For us who can't really keep up with the theory behind the practices, please summarize your conclusions in a replicable formula if you find anything revolutionary
"Eat a few eggs, take 5g of piracetam and then Attach this [link] TCU-device to your skull while reading to activate your infinite eidetic memory."

Thanks man, I appreciate it. If I find anything truly revolutionary I'll let you guys know. I've benefitted so much from people posting on here that I think it's only fair that I make things public. I've recently been able to borrow an oxygen concentrator and a doppler ultrasound device but I'm still researching the safety of both of those before I try them...if they're not safe then I won't use them.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. I also found a guy who's gonna let me try his Bulletproof Vibration Plate. http://www.upgradeds...tion-plate.html I'm mostly interested in the mental effects and the increased microvascular blood flow...I might try to take some nootropics right before I get on to see what happens. I'll keep ya posted.

[travis_w]

Using those guidelines from that study mentioned before, how much time would you need to use the laser in the link below to get the same effect?
"...peak wavelength of 810 nm... delivering an irradiance of 250 mW/cm2 when applied at 4 mm from the skin.... exposure to the light for 4 minutes (total delivered fluence per site of 60 J/cm2.... Based on a penetration of 3.7% of the light to the dura, we calculated that 2.1 J/cm2 was delivered..."

http://odicforce.com...=39&aid=OFL143

If it is simply a matter of 1600-1800 divided by 250 and used as a proportion, then you'd only need ~35 seconds?

I still haven't bought one, still moseying around trying to figure out what to buy. Waiting for more testimonials from members, too.

[peakplasma]

Using those guidelines from that study mentioned before, how much time would you need to use the laser in the link below to get the same effect?
"...peak wavelength of 810 nm... delivering an irradiance of 250 mW/cm2 when applied at 4 mm from the skin.... exposure to the light for 4 minutes (total delivered fluence per site of 60 J/cm2.... Based on a penetration of 3.7% of the light to the dura, we calculated that 2.1 J/cm2 was delivered..."

http://odicforce.com....=39&aid=OFL143

If it is simply a matter of 1600-1800 divided by 250 and used as a proportion, then you'd only need ~35 seconds?

I still haven't bought one, still moseying around trying to figure out what to buy. Waiting for more testimonials from members, too.

That laser is too powerful. You will need a heatsink and fan or you will burn the skin.

I don't really understand your calculation either. If you focus that laser to a 1cm dot it will deliver 1.6-1.8 W/cm² and 63 joules(!)/cm² after 35 seconds.

[Major Legend]

Interested in getting a laser, but then the dosing seems complicated after reading this by hode:

http://www.laser.nu/...ossibledose.pdf

not that it seems complicated how the laser actually spreads itself, but there is a page which he shows application over an area with multiple points for a few seconds only, does this mean this is the correct way to distribute the light across the brain?

and what if we wanted to specifically target one area - say the frontal lobe?

anyways this guide is probably a good quick reference to dosing using a laser.

so for those gifted with a better brain than my own - what dosing would I need to do if I bought a 808nm, 200mw dot laser, and would this be the ideal choice if i'm looking for metabolic boost?

Odd that light therapy has been overlooked for so long, but I guess its not as appealing as swallowing a pill, and there is no money to be made from it at all, since all the parts are really dirt cheap. Also unlike drugs people would only need to make a one time purchase - this is probably why its under represented even though there is scientific data going back 40 years.

Still I have a feeling it will only work for a select few healthy brains after all NADH supplements causes weird effects in different people.

Edited by Major Legend, 27 May 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[chemicalambrosia]

Thanks Chung! I appreciate it.

I think you're def right about test. It doesn't deserve the arch-villian status that many people bestow upon it. For a lot of people, reasonable doses have been completely life-changing. I'm glad to hear that it works so well for you.

I have not tried test at this point (my levels were very good per most recent blood test), though I have nothing inherently against it. The last time I looked at the literature I came to the (provisional) conclusion that exogenous test should not be taken until absolutely necessary due to the combination of endogenous shutdown and uncertainty of restart. Once the 'boys' take a nap, there's no guarantee that they'll wake up again (though they might with Clomid, HCG, etc.). Sounded wiser to me to wait until I was ready for the long haul. What are your thoughts on this?

You're completely right. Exogenous test will shut down endogenous production. And cycling is too much of a risk and hassle, IMO.
That's why I go the endogenous route and use low dose Clomid (for increasing endogenous production via LH) along with a reliable aromatase inhibitor to avoid conversion to estrogen. It's a decent method which works well for me, but it requires very precise and individual dosing to avoid sides (too much E2, too low E2...). Interestingly, I started off with just a Clomid and got very high levels of estrogen, which actually benefitted cognitive performance, mood and especially verbal memory. (the female brain, lol)
But, with the addition of anastrozole (AI) I'd say this stack is very effective and safe for most people.

Chung-Pao, I'm very interested in your clomid/anastrozole regimen. Was this doctor directed or self directed? What doses are you currently using and how did you arrive at them? What effects and side effects are you noticing, etc. If you could maybe start a new thread on it I'm sure a lot of people would be interested and appreciate it.

[chung_pao]

Unfortunately, I can't recommend using it long term. After a while of using the exact same AI/clomid ratio, I started experiencing symptoms of high estrogen (feminization: unusual fat-deposits). The body adapted somehow. I also began experiencing visual side-effects from clomid. Many theorize that it causes damage to the optic nerve, which I took very seriously.

To replace clomid, I instead increased my amount and quality of exercise. I continue taking anastrozole though.
A regimen that still works for me though: Improve diet (more animal products), increase exercise (cold baths and 2 high intensity sessions/wk) and continue low dose anastrozole (0.5 mg, 2x/wk).

I think it can work, but the visual side-effects were unpleasant. And for me it requires frequent adjustments of the AI/clomid ratio.

Edited by chung_pao, 27 May 2013 - 06:23 PM.

[chemicalambrosia]

Thank you for the reply. I've seen studies and reports of people using it at low doses for two years or more. I've heard that the side effects are mostly prevalent at higher doses. What was the highest dose you took and what was the lowest?

[chung_pao]

Weekly, it ranged from 3x50 mg to 2x10 mg. Since I was still experiencing visual side's at the lowest dose, I decided to discontinue it.
Yes, those studies are pretty convincing, and motivated me to try.
A lot of people can use it at 3-4x50 mg per week without experiencing any side effects.
You could try and see how you respond. Judging from anecdotes and my own experiences, if you discontinue it soon after the onset of side-effects, they're reversible.

Hormonally, the combination can be very effective if the ratio is right (to achieve the desired hormonal outcome; high T low E for example).

Edited by chung_pao, 27 May 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[peakplasma]

http://www.laser.nu/...ossibledose.pdf

what dosing would I need to do if I bought a 808nm, 200mw dot laser, and would this be the ideal choice if i'm looking for metabolic boost?

Thanks great read. Your dose is going to depend on individually on the thickness of skull, color of skin, amount of hair.

I think that laser module is a good choice to replicate the major depression study which applied 808nm at 250mw/cm2 for a number of minutes.

[chemicalambrosia]

Weekly, it ranged from 3x50 mg to 2x10 mg. Since I was still experiencing visual side's at the lowest dose, I decided to discontinue it.
Yes, those studies are pretty convincing, and motivated me to try.
A lot of people can use it at 3-4x50 mg per week without experiencing any side effects.
You could try and see how you respond. Judging from anecdotes and my own experiences, if you discontinue it soon after the onset of side-effects, they're reversible.

Hormonally, the combination can be very effective if the ratio is right (to achieve the desired hormonal outcome; high T low E for example).

How long did you stay at a low dose for? Clomid has such a long half life(wikipedia says 5-7 days) that it would take quite a while after switching to a low dose to get a fair trial. I also don't know enough about the visual disturbances... they might even persist for a while without the Clomid in your system? Maybe if you had started at a lower dose you might never have gotten them? I don't know, but I have some and will probably give it a trial at a very low dosage. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

[OpaqueMind]

Along with the frontal lobes, I've been using the laser just above the ear, on the temporal lobe, for the last few days, along with the lower-rear base of the skull - the occipital lobe. I aim for between 1-2 minutes at each site, on both hemispheres, on a 2/1 on-off daily schedule. Placebo or not, I've noticed a sharp increase in the ease of recalling memories. Theories I've not read/thought about in a long time come readily to my mind in the process of description. I've also been feeling less fatigued during the day, despite consistently inadequate sleep. Along with this I also notice a sudden increase in the clarity of my vision and depth perception. I also feel that my thoughts are more integrated with my emotions - I feel my thoughts, what was once entirely abstract now seems to be seeping into the concrete. I'm not sure what to attribute the latter effects to, as I'm affecting 3 seperate areas at once, but the first two are consistent with temporal and occiptal lobe excitation. Given the undeniability and relative strength of these effects, especially on my (it should be noted - damaged) memory, placebo seems unlikely, though possible... although given the demonstrated efficacy in other areas of the brain, and the more-or-less homogenous micro-structural properties of the human cortex, I highly doubt it. Perhaps some of you guys could try it and report back?

By the way, I'm still planning to shave my head and use the laser on all 20 EEG sites, and will report my experience after I have done so. At the moment though, I am about to undergo a week-long fast, and it seems unwise to combine these 2 unknowns.

[peakplasma]

Along with the frontal lobes, I've been using the laser just above the ear, on the temporal lobe, for the last few days, along with the lower-rear base of the skull - the occipital lobe. I aim for between 1-2 minutes at each site, on both hemispheres, on a 2/1 on-off daily schedule. Placebo or not, I've noticed a sharp increase in the ease of recalling memories. Theories I've not read/thought about in a long time come readily to my mind in the process of description. I've also been feeling less fatigued during the day, despite consistently inadequate sleep. Along with this I also notice a sudden increase in the clarity of my vision and depth perception. I also feel that my thoughts are more integrated with my emotions - I feel my thoughts, what was once entirely abstract now seems to be seeping into the concrete. I'm not sure what to attribute the latter effects to, as I'm affecting 3 seperate areas at once, but the first two are consistent with temporal and occiptal lobe excitation. Given the undeniability and relative strength of these effects, especially on my (it should be noted - damaged) memory, placebo seems unlikely, though possible... although given the demonstrated efficacy in other areas of the brain, and the more-or-less homogenous micro-structural properties of the human cortex, I highly doubt it. Perhaps some of you guys could try it and report back?

By the way, I'm still planning to shave my head and use the laser on all 20 EEG sites, and will report my experience after I have done so. At the moment though, I am about to undergo a week-long fast, and it seems unwise to combine these 2 unknowns.

Impressive results! I will try some points on the occipital and temporal lobe but my hair is really thick there so I probably won't penetrate much.

Why the on-off schedule? Specifically, which sites are you hitting? T3 and T4 for temporal? Pz for Occipital?

[travis_w]

Do you guys think there are any safety concerns buying a slightly higher (than the ones purchased from this forum so far) power laser of similar build? It seems like only a small percentage of the laser gets "dosed" but I know the maximum recommended was 325mW/cm2. Each of the lasers including the 200mW one that someone is already using has "can burn at close range" warnings.

For example:
http://odicforce.com...d=42&aid=OFL58
or
http://odicforce.com...=38&aid=OFL351

[travis_w]

Interesting and related:
http://www.udel.edu/...aserChapter.pdf

Talks about using lasers to treat physical problems or injuries... neck/back pain, carpal tunnel, wounds, and more.

Edit: also mentions using up to 10W (watt!) lasers.

Edited by travis_w, 28 May 2013 - 02:18 AM.

[OpaqueMind]

Impressive results! I will try some points on the occipital and temporal lobe but my hair is really thick there so I probably won't penetrate much.

Why the on-off schedule? Specifically, which sites are you hitting? T3 and T4 for temporal? Pz for Occipital?

I've been hitting t3, t4, o1 and o2. On the birds eye view EEG layouts they look to be on the top of the head, but in fact they are on the side. There's a few side profile EEG layouts on google, have a gander. I have thick hair too, but just behind the top of the ears there's some relatively hairless skin suitable for lasering, at least on me. For the occipital I simply part the hair as best I can, it's not great but I think some gets through.

I do the on/off schedule because there are no long term studies in healthy individuals, and one study showed complete reversion to baseline after a solid 14 day treatment. Since the laser seems to have an accumulative effect, a similar reversion may be induced even with non-use days in between. In the studies on TBI patients they had to use the laser 1-2x a week in order to maintain the positive effects, however I haven't seen any maintenance schedules which go beyond this. If you see any it'd be great if you could let us know. I'd love to be able to laser as much as possible!