41 replies to this topic

[Debaser]

I am planning on taking St. John's Wort extract (Hypericum perforatum), but before I do I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it, i.e. whether it's a good idea and the safety of it.

The reason I am planning on taking it is because it upregulates 5-HT receptors [1]. I have taken MDMA in my life and recently "lost the magic". A theory behind the loss of magic is that the huge amount of serotonin in the brain while you are high on MDMA downregulates your 5-HT receptors. For the euphoric rush you need both sensitive receptors and a lot of serotonin in the brain, which is difficult to achieve because increasing the amount of serotonin (e.g. by 5-HTP) will downregulate your receptors, whereas upregulating your receptors will decrease the amount of serotonin because your brain is trying to maintain a balance.

I have read anecdotal reports on the Internet that said three weeks of a high dose of hypericum followed by one week of 5-HTP before taking your MDMA will give a better experience. The theory is that the hypericum will upregulate your 5-HT receptors and then the 5-HTP will increase the levels of 5-HT in the brain, so that when you take the MDMA you have both sensitive receptors and enough serotonin for a good experience. Obviously St. John's Wort should never be taken at the same time as the 5-HTP or MDMA because you can cause serotonin syndrome.

One of the things that worries me is that I'm pretty happy at the moment and don't want to upset the balance of chemicals in my brain too much or even trigger a depression. How safe is St. John's Wort and how safe is it at higher doses? Is it safe to take at the same time as piracetam? And what do people think about the theory behind this?

[1] http://www.psych.yor...stjohnswort.pdf Hypericum perforatum (St John’s Wort): a non-selective reuptake inhibitor? A review of the recent advances in its pharmacology

Edited by Debaser, 27 May 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[NFP]

i thought it was great until i started developing cataracts from it. i had 20/20 vision my whole life and slowly my vision was clearly getting blurrier and blurrier. i suggest you stay away from it, its not beneficial in the long run.

[Tom_]

Your theory is bat shit. You enjoy taking drugs of abuse and due to what I agree is likely downregulation of 5HT receptors you want to increase the amount of 5HT activation for longer periods...Tianapine is a better idea.

It it acts as a upregulator which I am in no possition to argue for or against its going to be working as a fairly potent downregulator as an SSRI as well.

An even better idea would be to not take E for a while - not that I have an actual problem with using E.

Realistically using E and a potent SS/NRI (example venlafaxine) is perfectly safe. Start using an MAOI (reversable or not) and problems might start coming about. A lot of people take Tryptophan or 5HTP after E to off set the depression it can cause (the aptly named suicide monday). Tryptophan is a better idea (combined with b6 and vit c) as it has reduced health upset.

To get a better high off e you might consider taking a small dosage of DLPA and tryptophan a few hours before.

[NFP]

Haha, did i really get downvoted? Theres plenty of evidence of St Johns Wort causing cataracts on Google. http://www.fordham.e...archive_208.asp

[Tom_]

There I upvoted to even it out. You are right.

[Debaser]

An even better idea would be to not take E for a while

This doesn't actually work though. It helps to keep the magic for longer if you spread it out but it won't bring it back once it's gone. There are people who wait 10 years and never get it back.

A lot of people take Tryptophan or 5HTP after E to off set the depression it can cause (the aptly named suicide monday).

This actually makes it worse. Your receptors have already been downregulated by the MDMA and then you expose them to more serotonin which only prevents them from bouncing back because your brain gets used to the elevated levels of serotonin. You want to trigger upregulation, not cause more downregulation, even if it makes you feel better in the short term.

Haha, did i really get downvoted? Theres plenty of evidence of St Johns Wort causing cataracts on Google. http://www.fordham.e...archive_208.asp

This is worrying if true. I imagine such an effect would be worse at a higher dosage.

Edited by Debaser, 27 May 2013 - 09:08 PM.

[Tom_]

Downregulation takes weeks not hours.

[Debaser]

Downregulation takes weeks not hours.

If that was true, then a few hours of using MDMA would not change brain chemistry and you'd get the same high every time.

[Debaser]

Bump. Any more thoughts on the safety of St. John's Wort? What has me most worried now is the eye problems.

[Rethar]

Bump. Any more thoughts on the safety of St. John's Wort? What has me most worried now is the eye problems.

I'm pretty sure I developed eye problems from using St. John's Wort, however the caveat for me was I was using pretty high doses of it. The time period I took it for was 2-3 weeks. I thought the phototoxicity side effects I'd heard of were only from exposure to UV light and that I'd be safe because I wouldn't be outdoors much. Not the case. I now have issues with focusing my eyes as well as before, and I can tell my vision is slightly blurrier now in one eye because of it.So while it had nice mood effects, I completely do not recommend it at all. The eye problems are not worth it. I switched to using curcumin as it has somewhat similar pharmacology as an MAOI, and it's way safer IMO.

[Debaser]

What dosage were you taking?

In any case, I think I will forget about this plan. As you say, it's not worth it. It's like trying to fix something that's not broken. I'm not depressed, so taking St John's Wort just to improve a recreational drug isn't worth the risk.

Edited by Debaser, 02 June 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[nowayout]

It's ironic that you use ecstasy but you're worried about the side effects of St. John's wort. I mean, seriously?

[Debaser]

It's ironic that you use ecstasy but you're worried about the side effects of St. John's wort. I mean, seriously?

In all seriousness, MDMA isn't particularly dangerous. It seems like you're saying that from the media and political view of it rather than the scientific one.

And yes, I take damage to eyesight seriously.

[Rethar]

What dosage were you taking?

In any case, I think I will forget about this plan. As you say, it's not worth it. It's like trying to fix something that's not broken. I'm not depressed, so taking St John's Wort just to improve a recreational drug isn't worth the risk.

My dose was pretty high, don't remember exactly but it was around 3g-4.5g split into 2-3 doses per day. Normal dose is around 9-1.8g per day. In terms of mood it was great at this dosage, similar reduction of negative mood state akin to SSRI's and also felt happier (no emotional blunting like I've gotten from SSRIs). Didn't have any noticeable side effects except for the eye issues that showed up after a few weeks.

[Galaxyshock]

I've been using St. John's quite continuously from January without any issues. Even at megadoses like over 6 grams a day (extract) for a while. No photosensivity (I've been tanning regularly the whole spring) and no eye-issues. Mostly cured anhedonia, happy and positive mood are the goods. Combining it with Bacopa I get quite a serotonin boost, so that I can just go out, smile and chat people up. Normally I'm nothing like that, well at least not used to. Seems that some of the effects are lasting and I'm turning to a much more sociable person. Don't feel like taking something like MDMA, I'll rather optimize my everyday function.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 03 June 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[lammas2]

I think you all should specify whether you are using standard St John's Wort extract (hypericin rich), or an extract standardized to hyperforin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9342768

[ReachMyPotential]

I'd be interested for these folks to chime in with the brands/dosages of SJW they were taking as well. I've heard so many mixed reviews -- some people having eye problems, some people skating along just fine with no photosensitivity or eye issues -- and it'd be good to know what brands they were taking.

[Samuraidream]

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?

I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.

Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

 

 

 

[William Sterog]

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?

I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.

Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

 

Yes, I usually feels like that when I take 800mg in pills. Also I experienced hallucinations more easely when I close my eyes.

 

But I never had a headache taking that, nor the red eyes.

[Samuraidream]

 

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?

I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.

Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

 

Yes, I usually feels like that when I take 800mg in pills. Also I experienced hallucinations more easely when I close my eyes.

 

But I never had a headache taking that, nor the red eyes.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Do you think I should lower the dose? For instance, would it make sense to take only half of the tab (around 225mg) a day??

[William Sterog]

 

 

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?

I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.

Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

 

Yes, I usually feels like that when I take 800mg in pills. Also I experienced hallucinations more easely when I close my eyes.

 

But I never had a headache taking that, nor the red eyes.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Do you think I should lower the dose? For instance, would it make sense to take only half of the tab (around 225mg) a day??

 

No. The minimal dose is about 300mg. Unless you have some kind of hipersensibility or alergy I think that you only need to get used to the sustance. The period during you feel strange shouldn't last more than a week, in my experience. Benefits are on the long term.

[Samuraidream]

 

 

 

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?

I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.

Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

 

Yes, I usually feels like that when I take 800mg in pills. Also I experienced hallucinations more easely when I close my eyes.

 

But I never had a headache taking that, nor the red eyes.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Do you think I should lower the dose? For instance, would it make sense to take only half of the tab (around 225mg) a day??

 

No. The minimal dose is about 300mg. Unless you have some kind of hipersensibility or alergy I think that you only need to get used to the sustance. The period during you feel strange shouldn't last more than a week, in my experience. Benefits are on the long term.

 

 

Alright, I'll try taking it for another 4 days (a week in total) to see if side effects persist/disappear. 

 

Have you noticed any increase/decrease in libido when on SJW?

 

Thanks a lot for your input!

[William Sterog]

 

 

 

 

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?

I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.

Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

 

Yes, I usually feels like that when I take 800mg in pills. Also I experienced hallucinations more easely when I close my eyes.

 

But I never had a headache taking that, nor the red eyes.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Do you think I should lower the dose? For instance, would it make sense to take only half of the tab (around 225mg) a day??

 

No. The minimal dose is about 300mg. Unless you have some kind of hipersensibility or alergy I think that you only need to get used to the sustance. The period during you feel strange shouldn't last more than a week, in my experience. Benefits are on the long term.

 

 

Alright, I'll try taking it for another 4 days (a week in total) to see if side effects persist/disappear. 

 

Have you noticed any increase/decrease in libido when on SJW?

 

Thanks a lot for your input!

 

I don't feel any significative changes in my libido, that is extremely high lately, but I think that sport and acetyl-l-carnitine influenced the most. 

[Samuraidream]

 

 

 

 

 

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?

I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.

Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

 

Yes, I usually feels like that when I take 800mg in pills. Also I experienced hallucinations more easely when I close my eyes.

 

But I never had a headache taking that, nor the red eyes.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Do you think I should lower the dose? For instance, would it make sense to take only half of the tab (around 225mg) a day??

 

No. The minimal dose is about 300mg. Unless you have some kind of hipersensibility or alergy I think that you only need to get used to the sustance. The period during you feel strange shouldn't last more than a week, in my experience. Benefits are on the long term.

 

 

Alright, I'll try taking it for another 4 days (a week in total) to see if side effects persist/disappear. 

 

Have you noticed any increase/decrease in libido when on SJW?

 

Thanks a lot for your input!

 

I don't feel any significative changes in my libido, that is extremely high lately, but I think that sport and acetyl-l-carnitine influenced the most. 

 

 

Good to know. I was afraid that SJW might decrease it or something. And maybe it's just a placebo, but I feel like it has decreased in the last couple of days. I guess it'll be fine once my body gets used to SJW. 

Edited by SamuraiSlut, 04 September 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[William Sterog]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?

I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.

Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

 

Yes, I usually feels like that when I take 800mg in pills. Also I experienced hallucinations more easely when I close my eyes.

 

But I never had a headache taking that, nor the red eyes.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Do you think I should lower the dose? For instance, would it make sense to take only half of the tab (around 225mg) a day??

 

No. The minimal dose is about 300mg. Unless you have some kind of hipersensibility or alergy I think that you only need to get used to the sustance. The period during you feel strange shouldn't last more than a week, in my experience. Benefits are on the long term.

 

 

Alright, I'll try taking it for another 4 days (a week in total) to see if side effects persist/disappear. 

 

Have you noticed any increase/decrease in libido when on SJW?

 

Thanks a lot for your input!

 

I don't feel any significative changes in my libido, that is extremely high lately, but I think that sport and acetyl-l-carnitine influenced the most. 

 

 

Good to know. I was afraid that SJW might decrease it or something. And maybe it's just a placebo, but I feel like it has decreased in the last couple of days. I guess it'll be fine once my body gets used to SJW. 

 

Don't worry. You could always be a samurai slut. 

[sparkk51]

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?
I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.
Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

Sounds like an SSRI.

Edited by sparkk51, 04 September 2014 - 05:42 PM.

[Samuraidream]

 

Has anyone experienced a dream-like feeling from taking SJW?
I've been taking 1 tab (450mg) of Kira a day since Tuesday and my mood has definitely increased. However, I feel a bit like a zombie if you know what I mean... rather emotionless.
Furthermore, had a horrible headache in the first 24hrs or so and my eyes were all red and sore. Is that a common side-effect?

Sounds like an SSRI.

 

 

Care to elaborate?

Do these side effects go away eventually?

[Samuraidream]

So I've been taking SJW for 4 days now and I really do feel like I'm in a dream - it's like I'm always tired yet I don't sleep very well. In the first 3 days my mood was definitely brighter, though. However, today I felt very emotional and almost had a panic attack (which is unusual for me). Any thoughts on that? Shall I continue or just stop taking SJW and look for alternatives?

 

Thanks for your input guys.

[Ricah]

I know that i'm bumping pretty old thread, but i'll do it anyway. I'm trying to cure my apathy&anhedonia, which mostly SSRI gave me. And thinking, that the problem may be with 5-HT1a and 5-HT2(especially a) receptors downregulation, St John Worth may be the resolution for my problems (as it upregulates them). Till now i tried 1,8g for about 20 days, my libido increased and I'm a bit more alive (a little bit less discouraged to doing some things). After the summer I'm planning to try much higher dose of this drug (4-6g or even higher) for longer period of time, but first seeking some case reports with people results.

Of course there is guy who cured his anhedonia up there, what is very promising for me. Have anyone tried higher dose (higher than at least 2g/d) of SJW and succesfully cured apathy&anhedonia, at least to some extent? There ain't much case reports with higher dose of this, not telling about trying to cure these symptoms.

Edited by Ricah, 19 June 2016 - 08:24 PM.

[gamesguru]

the main reason SSRIs are thought to be good for MDMA recovery is that serotonin induces BDNF, which heals dendrites (and/or axons).

Evidence that serotonin reuptake modulators increase the density of serotonin innervation in the forebrain.
Zhou L1, Huang KX, Kecojevic A, Welsh AM, Koliatsos VE. (2006)

The mechanism of action of commonly used antidepressants remains an issue of debate. In the experiments reported here we studied the effects of three representative compounds, the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor fluoxetine, the selective serotonin reuptake enhancer tianeptine and the selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor desipramine on the structure of central serotonin pathways after a 4-week administration. We found that the serotonin modulators fluoxetine and tianeptine, but not desipramine, increase the density of 5-HT and serotonin transporter (SERT)-immunoreactive axons in the neocortical layer IV and certain forebrain limbic areas, such as piriform cortex and the shell region of nucleus accumbens. These changes were noted in the absence of a significant effect of serotonin antidepressants on the expression of tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH-2), i.e. the rate-limiting enzyme for 5-HT biosynthesis and of SERT at the mRNA level. In addition, we found that anterogradely filled terminal axons from injections of biotinylated dextran amine into the dorsal raphe showed significantly more branching in animals treated with fluoxetine compared with animals treated with liposyn vehicle. Our findings suggest that antidepressants may exert very selective structural effects on their cognate monoamine systems in normal animals and raise the possibility that neurotrophic mechanisms may play a role in their clinical efficacy.

 

BDNF and 5-HT: a dynamic duo in age-related neuronal plasticity and neurodegenerative disorders.
Mattson MP1, Maudsley S, Martin B. (2004)

Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) and serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, 5-HT) are known to regulate synaptic plasticity, neurogenesis and neuronal survival in the adult brain. These two signals co-regulate one another such that 5-HT stimulates the expression of BDNF, and BDNF enhances the growth and survival of 5-HT neurons. Impaired 5-HT and BDNF signaling is central to depression and anxiety disorders, but could also play important roles in the pathogenesis of several age-related disorders, including insulin resistance syndrome, Alzheimer's disease and Huntington's disease. Enhancement of BDNF signaling may be a key mechanism whereby cognitive stimulation, exercise, dietary restriction and antidepressant drugs preserve brain function during aging. Behavioral and pharmacological manipulations that enhance 5-HT and BDNF signaling could help promote healthy brain aging.

 

as for the SJW, cataracts seem to be a major concern. maybe cycle it and avoid sunlight on cycle? it shouldn't take more than a couple 12 week cycles, maybe three. in its place, i can suggest maybe experimenting with a 5-HT_1A antagonist ginkgo (however it is may have agonist properties at the 2A site):

... desensitization of 5-HT1A receptors was prevented by the administration of Ginkgo biloba extract (EGb 761)
G. biloba extract reduced [3H]ketanserin binding to 5-HT2A receptors in the frontal cortex of MAO-A knockout mice (Shin et al.,  2000).

 

you can find other less common supplements (maybe they could overpower ginkgo at the 2A site?)... if you do a little digging, e.g. "5-ht2a antagonist flavonoid" or "5-ht2a antagonist alkaloid"

Edited by gamesguru, 19 June 2016 - 11:40 PM.