57 replies to this topic

[socialpiranha]

Interesting. thats good that you pointed that out, i should have myself. If you look at all the studies though it seems like it might be more neutral than negative in terms of increased myocardial infarction incidence. At the dosage i would use i think it would be fairly harmless, my guess is its probably at higher dosages that at2 receptor stimulation becomes totally unopposed. It is a worry though i'm paranoid about anything that effects the heart. but then again whats the damage if i keep living a sedentary life because of anxiety...paralyzed by analysis again ha

[socialpiranha]

I'm actually starting a drug called mildronate monday that is supposed to help the heart by affecting mitochondrial respiration. Studies show that it increases energy and mood in neurological disorders.
http://onlinelibrary...0267.x/abstract

Also in regards to ADD i don't know if i've mentioned metadoxine as a non stimulant treatment in phase 2 trials. It is available online very cheaply, here's the phase ll trial
http://europepmc.org...ct/MED/23290324

and in regards to ocd, ondansetron(which i've tried with some success) success was very specific to ocd-like symptoms but again ondansetron has been linked to possible increase in heart problems(via promiscuous herg i think) anyway heres a pilot trial for ocd there are a few more out there as well.
http://europepmc.org...ct/MED/14628977

Edited by socialpiranha, 16 June 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Dinvestor]

Hey Socialpiranha:

Do you (or any others on here) have any experience with Stablon (Tianeptine) I know there's some threads from a while back, but just curious what some of the latest thought is on it? looks like some good sources to pick this up from. I've read some good info on it...

Anyway, be curious to read some thoughts on this.

D

[penisbreath]

if you suffer from atypical depression, stablon is a bad fit -- it made my anxiety far worse. not sure how it would vary for other conditions though. it's a shame -- sounds really good on paper.

[Dinvestor]

Thanks Lucky. I don't suffer from depression. My problem is an overactive nervous system as the result of late stage Lyme Disease. I've dealt with panic attacks and anticipatory anxiety as well as migraine headaches, eye disturbances and akathesia at night (not drug induced).

Just trying to find something (besides clonzeapam) that i can take everyday. Currently trying Lithium Orotate, but trying to find the right dosage. Not sure Li-Or will be enough, that's why I'm looking for something else.

Tried most of the Russian stuff and most of the herb/nutriceutical approaches...Still on the quest.

[penisbreath]

might be worth trying then .. it generally seems to either work well for people or do nothing at all .. certainly seems like a better alternative to most ADs out there, it was something i was really hoping would provide some benefit for me

I'm actually starting a drug called mildronate monday that is supposed to help the heart by affecting mitochondrial respiration. Studies show that it increases energy and mood in neurological disorders.
http://onlinelibrary...0267.x/abstract

Also in regards to ADD i don't know if i've mentioned metadoxine as a non stimulant treatment in phase 2 trials. It is available online very cheaply, here's the phase ll trial
http://europepmc.org...ct/MED/23290324

and in regards to ocd, ondansetron(which i've tried with some success) success was very specific to ocd-like symptoms but again ondansetron has been linked to possible increase in heart problems(via promiscuous herg i think) anyway heres a pilot trial for ocd there are a few more out there as well.
http://europepmc.org...ct/MED/14628977

thanks for the studies .. ondanestron is available here, but it's ridiculously expensive (a 4-pill pack for nausea cost me like $30). my ocd/phobic avoidance is so severe and disruptive that it's literally occupying most of my daily routine, and yet i really don't want to be on SSRIs, APs, etc. starting to feel pretty hopeless. i really wish there were better alternatives out there. i was born 10 years too late.

[socialpiranha]

hey D, Yes i have tried tianeptine but it wasn't stablon it was a powder and i had to eyeball it. It made me feel like i had the flu, body aches and general sick feeling but from what i have heard it works great for certain people i think its worth a try. I'm not even totally sure what i got was tianeptine i didnt have it tested and it wasn't a name brand pill.

Lucky, i wish i was legally allowed to send you what i have left of the ondansetron, i spent over 300 bucks on it and its just sitting in my bag of old meds. If you haven't tried it yet i would highly suggest it given your symptoms. It does something no other drug i've tried does, it quiets something in the body/brain that no other drug i've tried does(possibly via the vagus nerve) It is in no way euphoric and has no effect on depression but it definitely has a very noticable effect on ocd-like symptoms even with the first dose. My primary symptom is socially anxiety which it doesnt have much effect on, i'm ok when i'm at home.

10 years too late for what?

As a last resort i would recommend buprenorphine, It completely obliterates ocd and depression and is helpful for anxiety.

[penisbreath]

thanks socialpiranha, i appreciate the sentiment. ondansetron is a 5-ht3 antagonist, isn't it? i know memantine has that property too but it made my anxiety *way* worse .. are there any other drugs/compounds that act on that receptor?

i just meant 10 years as in i'm guessing all the exciting developments will happen over the next decade ..

sadly i'm in neo-fascist australia where prescribing opiates off-label is illegal -- unless i turn up to a clinic with holes punctured into my arm, i have zero chance of having buprenorphine prescribed.

[Dinvestor]

Hey Lucky:

I believe you mentioned in a previous post that you were taking Lithium orotate and that it was helping a bit. If this is correct, how much do you take? I have ramped it up a bit recently to 25mg a day (5 pills) and I can feel it some.

D

[penisbreath]

wow 25mg, do you get much brain fog at that dose?

i take 5mg a day .. it helps anxiety a little and flattens my mood a bit. i just took 10mg about an hour ago as a matter of fact and the anxiolytic effect is stronger, but i feel way more mentally foggy

[Dinvestor]

No, I don't notice any brain fog. However, brain fog is a symptom of Chronic Lyme Disease so, to me after 17 years, what you may deem as brain fog may seem somewhat normal to me.

I've been spacing the pills out over 2-3 hours over each day to try to get a more even effect. I can feel some anxiolytic effect after a 5mg pill, but it doesn't seem to last all that long.

I know there are some reports of people taking up to 40mg a day in divided dose. I believe Dr. Jonathan Wright says he'll recommend up to that much without needing to be concerned about toxicity, etc.

[socialpiranha]

Yeah canada's just as bad, i was prescribed oxycontin though for pain and got addicted...... I think memantine increases anxiety due to its antagonistic effects on nmda receptors i find nmda antagonists drastically increase my anxiety. I know ginger has antagonistic effects on 5ht3 not sure howselective or potent though. I think the .....setron family of drugs are the only ones which are fairly selective and potent.

I'm gonna be ordering jdtic soon its a kappa antagonist like buprenorphine available online, it has potent anti anx/dep/ocd effects according to anecdotal reports.I have used many other opiates with no where near the remission that bupe gave me(hence the kappa theory) There are some studies which lend some evidence toward the idea that ocd/anx could be treated with kappa ants

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17907829

http://repository.up...ons/AAI3395683/

[penisbreath]

yeah i'm the same way with NMDA antagonists .. it's weird, magnesium used to calm me a lot but these days increases anxiety drastically

i've used ginger for nausea and never really noticed anything

unfortunately i don't really have enough money at the moment to experiment with novel, non-prescription compounds.

have you ever tried antibiotics socialpiranha? i know they're more indicated in PANDAS. minocycline seems to be getting attention for depression lately, but not sure if it shows much benefit in ocd/anxiety

[penisbreath]

what do you think about Riluzole socialpiranha? there seems to be some positive evidence in OCD, but my impression is the prohibitive cost holds people back ..

have you tried it? do you happen to know any affordable sources? the best i found was $350US for a month's supply

[Tom_]

I've been hitting the research stacks in relation to my own problems. (currently on 225mg venlafaxine, 50mg modafinil, 50mg agomelatine and 3mg melatonin).

I realized you haven't yet tried T3 which is clearly indicated in the pathophysiology of atypical depression. Nor could I find mention of Modafinil which has few but very promising studies in atypical depression. In reality you would want to be taking this with a Serotonergic antidepressant of some description. The combination is unlikely to worsen your anxiety much although in the first few weeks this might be a problem. In which case a PRN for something sedating might be in order.

This could give rise to a potentially very powerful combination of SSRI (other antidepressant, maybe meclobremide?), T3 and Modafinil. I feel like this is a much more promising and evidence based possibility than Riluzole. Start the SSRI add in modafinil after two weeks, keeping the doses low to start with and then add in high dose T3 before slowly increasing the doses of modafinil and the SSRI

[socialpiranha]

Hey lucky, i think riluzole is a good one to try, I almost tried it years ago before i went on lamotrigine, it is hypothesized that both drugs have similar pharmacology although rilutek has some novel differences. I am eagerly anticipating your experience with it and will definitely chuck for the cause...i encourage anyone else to contact lucky and help him out too, it's a worthy cause and i'm sure he will document his experience well. I haven't tried minocycline no, i've seen (probably the same) interest in it lately as well

Hey Tom_ T3 is a good suggestion, i don't really agree with the modafinil suggestion tho, it has extremely limited usefulness in my experience.

[Tom_]

Piranha, everyone reacts differently to different meds, you can't really extrapolate from personal experiences to likely hood of response on someone else. Not an attack, just an observation.

[socialpiranha]

I understand what your trying to say but i have to disagree,...Other than trying it yourself , similar people's experience is the best way to guess if something might work for you. This is the fundemental basis of all drug trials. It is the aim of psychiatric medicine to define disorders and find drugs which treat those groups succesfully. Generalization and profiling are the best estimation tools we have. I blame the antistereotype movement for your oversight lol, stereotyping is just statistics based estimation, its only when emotion is involved that it becomes something else.

Edited by socialpiranha, 03 July 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[KoolK3n]

Also in regards to ADD i don't know if i've mentioned metadoxine as a non stimulant treatment in phase 2 trials. It is available online very cheaply, here's the phase ll trial
http://europepmc.org...ct/MED/23290324

What website reliably offers Metadoxine? I couldn't find any :(

[Tom_]

piranha, double blind studies are very different from listening to someone on the internet tell you about their experience. The two biggest differences: a shit ton more people (reduces margin of error - gives more information so you can actually make an accurate generalization) and the removal of placebo effect. That's why I pay almost no heed to anecdotal 'evidence'.

I'm all for stereotyping, the antistereotype movement disgusts me. What I'm not for is people making un-evidence based or value judgements. You should be allowed to say: in the USA Black people are more violent than other groups. You shouldn't be allowed to say: you're black you must be a mass murdering fuck head...lets hang him boys.

[socialpiranha]

Yeah i wasn't saying double blind trials and anecdotal evidence were in any way equivocal just that they were both based on other peoples experiences. Obviously a dbpc trial is much better but it still is just taking someone elses experience as an estimate of how you might respond to it. The problem of different genetics etc is not really addressed by either, and there really is no way to even take that into consideration yet. The estimation based on other people experience method is the best we have now with the exception of mapping your genome. There are some studies which might help elucidate your personal "problem" if you do get tested but the majority is still not understood.

[socialpiranha]

Also in regards to ADD i don't know if i've mentioned metadoxine as a non stimulant treatment in phase 2 trials. It is available online very cheaply, here's the phase ll trial
http://europepmc.org...ct/MED/23290324

What website reliably offers Metadoxine? I couldn't find any :(

unitedpharmacies(viboliv) and ospharma(abrixone) brand names in brackets

[KoolK3n]

unitedpharmacies(viboliv) and ospharma(abrixone) brand names in brackets

Holy shit thanks!! I can't believe I couldn't find it before. Metadoxine was on my mind for several months now. I thought it just vanished. I would absolutely love to try it but the data (pharmacology) behind it is unknown. I don't know how this will interact with my upcoming stack and there aren't any anecdotes either. Why aren't you trialing it? It's interesting how the effects weren't noticeable til week 2 of treatment. Also, Metadoxine is a pyrolate salt of Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6).

Edited by KoolK3n, 05 July 2013 - 02:46 AM.

[penisbreath]

for what it's worth, I contacted a researcher at the Yale OCD clinic who is quite a big proponent of RIluzole -- he conducted both the small-scale trials on pubmed and has just completed a double-blind trial; he also makes use of it in his prescribing practice. based on my history, he definitely thinks it's worth a shot and has seen results in 1/2-2/3 of treatment-resistant patients. Memantine was a bust, but I seem to react badly to NMDA antagonism (magnesium is bad too) .. Riluzole alters glutamate through a novel mechanism and I have been doing a bit better on NAC lately, so I am cautiously optimistic

I appreciate the suggestion Tom, but there seems to be a limit to what serotonin-reuptake is going to do for me. I'd revisit an SSRI if there was nothing else left, but they do very little for my depression, anxiety or OCD and just make my ADD worse. plus I've experienced akathisia and movement symptoms on every one to date, which makes most practitioners reluctant to prescribe them and leaves me concerned about long-term effects.

maybe I'm being unrealistic, but I'm really looking for a robust clinical improvement at this point. this disease has stolen over 7 years of my life.

[Tom_]

Yup you are being unrealistic. TRD/OCD doesn't respond just to meds in the vast majority of cases. However, good luck.

[penisbreath]

I realize medication alone won't do it. I've also been in and out of therapy over those 7 years and never had much luck due to symptom severity and the fact that I could never get my anxiety/depression under control. if I could reduce my anxiety from being utterly disabling to manageable, then I would reenter therapy; in my current state, it's a waste of time.

Edited by lucky.pierre, 05 July 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[socialpiranha]

There is no way to judge whether your being unrealistic or not, some people respond to certain things and some don't you have no idea until you try a given drug or therapy or combo thereof.
After a while the motivation is drained and only a drastic improvement can turn things around, a slight reduction in symptoms often isn't worth the side effects that come with it or enough to turn things around.

I really like the treading water analogy because it is really very pertinent to the human condition. When your struggling to keep your head above water and someone throws you a life preserver, you can grab it and desperately hold onto it until you can regain your strength. When your already below the surface and out of reach it wouldn't be any help at all, at this point you would need someone to jump in and save you...

Failed treatment is an elongated version of this it is a slow drowning, grasping at less and less as time goes on as your strength fades. Only something with robust effects can summon up the strength to reach out at a certain point.

[penisbreath]

yeah that is a really great analogy, piranha. completely describes my mindset/situation.