45 replies to this topic

[mikey]

Just because something makes theoretical sense, shows some activity in the test tube, or has a patent, do not mean it will work. Almost no substances satisfying these three criteria actually work, so you might as well save your money until something proven comes along. (Especially patents are mostly based on someone's daydreams, hussied up with convincing-sounding language.) As far as I am aware, the only substances for which is any serious proof of (mild) effectiveness at reversing some damage are retinoids, and even for them the evidence is not overwhelmingly convincing by any means. And retinoids can actually make future damage more likely.

If anything really effective existed, everyone would be using it already.

But they are using retinoids. If you go to any drug store cosmetics section you'll see plenty of products with some amount of retinoids aimed at reducing wrinkles.

Yeah, retinoids have some research behind them but the effect (of the stronger prescription-only retinoids) is unfortunately either very slight or even for many people nothing at all, never mind the OTC ones.

The OTC product I noted from SkinActives is 2%.

Prescription strengths vary from .04% for Retin_A MICRO to higher. I have the .04%, which a dermatologist gave me specifically to reverse wrinkles, without burning/drying.

The higher percent scripts DO dry the skin, so one could buy the SkinActives product and use it sparingly a couple few times a week, so as to avoid drying.

Are you taking C60oo fullerene, ironfistx?

Please refrain from bringing this stuff up unless you are willing to share where we can get it. Thanks.

Sorry, the source of c60 olive oil is confidential. No one is allowed to share the source. It should be available from Big Pharma, by prescription only, on or after Jan 1, 2023.

I hope this is a joke.

Niner, is there a rule on this enlightened forum that we can't tell where we get things, like C60oo, vitamins, anti-oxidants, anti-wrinkle products?

Sounds pretty draconian AND weird.

If so, I'd like to know who decided to censor us, as it is censoring, which I can't imagine is a core value here.

Edited by mikey, 04 July 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[mikey]

Just because something makes theoretical sense, shows some activity in the test tube, or has a patent, do not mean it will work. Almost no substances satisfying these three criteria actually work, so you might as well save your money until something proven comes along. (Especially patents are mostly based on someone's daydreams, hussied up with convincing-sounding language.) As far as I am aware, the only substances for which is any serious proof of (mild) effectiveness at reversing some damage are retinoids, and even for them the evidence is not overwhelmingly convincing by any means. And retinoids can actually make future damage more likely.

If anything really effective existed, everyone would be using it already.

But they are using retinoids. If you go to any drug store cosmetics section you'll see plenty of products with some amount of retinoids aimed at reducing wrinkles.

Yeah, retinoids have some research behind them but the effect (of the stronger prescription-only retinoids) is unfortunately either very slight or even for many people nothing at all, never mind the OTC ones.

I recommend against using retinoids because

1-Too much upkeep, having to stay out of the sun even with sunblock!

2-They are irritating to the skin unless you are so utterly careful with your regimen that you are almost non-existent with regard to focusing on anything else in your regimen.

3-There are better alternatives, such as Amlactin which is A-Over the counter B-Less irritating and C-has been shown in studies to reduce sagging, probably partially do to collagen synthesis. It does make you photosensitive but nowhere near as much as Retinoids.

Wisdom of the day? Balance. I have come to realize that with a decent sunblock 20-30 minutes of sun exposure is very important because the sunblock will not block all the sun, thus allowing you to get some natural vitamin D (I supplement it as well, but it is not really the same feeling) while at the same time still protecting you from serious photo damage. Using the amlactin or similar product every two weeks will also help reverse any minor damages.

Are you taking C60oo fullerene, ironfistx?

Please refrain from bringing this stuff up unless you are willing to share where we can get it. Thanks.

I did - my post a few above. I said, "You can buy it from - http://www.carbon60o....com/index.html"

[mikey]

Interesting study - http://www.medscape....rticle/464026_3 about retinoid use for wrinkles.

Here are some quotes:
This landmark publication was conceived by Dr. Albert Klingman and colleagues after noting their well-controlled, middle-aged female acne patients were reluctant to discontinue tretinoin therapy, in view of a perceived improvement in fine lines and general skin appearance while using tretinoin (Klingman, Grove, Hirose, & Leyden, 1986). Improvement in skin wrinkling and roughness has been observed with long-term application of tretinoin. Dr. Elise Olsen and associates (Olsen et al., 1997) discovered that reducing the frequency of tretinoin 0.05% cream from once daily to 3 times per week maintains, and in some cases, possibly further enhances reduction of photodamage.

Topical all-trans-retinoic acid (tretinoin) protects the skin against damage from UVA and UVB rays (Francz, Conrad, & Biesalski, 1998). Tretinoin facilitates the ability to prevent collagen loss and stimulate new collagen formation within the papillary dermis of sun-exposed skin (Griffiths, 2001).

Rather than resorting to using unregulated, unpredictable over-the-counter products, an alternative 0.02% low-dose, oil-in-water formulation of tretinoin is now available by prescription. A 52-week clinical trial concluded safety and efficacy of 0.02% tretinoin cream for treating photodamage. The most evident outcome, in this trial, revealed improvements in fine wrinkling. Results were maintained with long-term use. Discontinuation of therapy, however, showed a gradual beneficial loss. Mild skin irritation was common, nevertheless generally well tolerated (Nyirady, Lehmann, & Nordin, 2003).

[Loveycat]

I am a fan of fillers for "smile lines" I have done it... silicone droplet. Also, peels with glycolic acid, lactic acid, salicylic acid are awesome for the surface of the skin. I am a "do it myselfer" I google "how to DIY" whenever I want to do something. Please be careful ... I use sunscreen ALL the time, and avoid the sun whenever possible!!! ..... I use a face cream with pregnenolone. (easy to find but I don't know if I am supposed to say a brand name here yet) ....I clean my face with coconut oil, and water ,no cleanser unless I am using microdermabrasion sand. I drink lots of water.There are other things I do and have done.....I am always searching for more....I hope this helps!

Edited by Loveycat, 04 July 2013 - 10:15 PM.

[niner]

I read on another page that retinol can make you more sensitive to the sun so you have to use sunscreen over it, so I see how it could possibly make sunscreen worse.

Retinol is pretty mild- I doubt it would cause any problems. Retinoic acid is the problem child.

Regarding C60oo, I'm not sure I want to try something so experimental yet. Did I miss an inside joke about not sharing sources? I Googled it yesterday after it was first mentioned in this thread to try and learn more and found a few sources without even trying.

OMG, it's on Google now?! Now the NSA knows about it!

I also found some criticisms of the study where it extended rat life because they said it didn't take into account calorie restriction which is well-known to extend rat's lives, anyway. Furthermore, there seem to be a lot of questionable reviews regarding it, too. Everything from people saying it greatly increased their energy and athletic ability instantly to people saying they noticed no effect after months. I don't want this thread to get sidetracked talking about C60 so let's keep it on topic to discussing only its relevance to wrinkles.

There is a lot of bogus criticism out there. It was valid very early on, but it's all been explored and answered now, but not always in the same place the criticism appears, particularly when new people come along with the same old criticism. The study explicitly considered CR. They graphed the weights of all animals, and there was no CR effect. Whoever made that criticism hadn't read the paper. There's a range of responses- young healthy couch potatoes feel nothing. Older people, people with certain disease states, and trained athletes are the ones more likely to feel something. But to get back on topic, its relevance to wrinkles is probably not very great. It's a membrane-resident antioxidant, and it provides some protection against sunburn. Whether that protection extends to photoaging or not is an open question. I suspect it's a net positive, but it's not the only tool in my skin toolbox. I still wear sunscreen...

Question about Amlactin: I Googled it and saw it mentioned as a treatment for dry skin. Wrinkles?

Hmm. It's sort of a buffered form of lactic acid, a powerful peeling agent. I tried some, and my skin was a wreck. I recently threw out a large bottle of it. I'd recommend a more mild exfoliating agent, like glycolic acid.

[nowayout]

I suspect nasolabial folds are not really "wrinkles" in the sense of something that can be modified by retinoids. They are more a reflection of the distribution of the underlying connective tissue matrix (including fat, etc.) than a condition of the skin itself.

Retinoids and other topicals will do nothing to change the deeper structure of your face.

For this reason the most effective treatment is not topical agents but fillers. The ones to get are the ones, like Restylane, that can be quickly reversed by injecting hyaluronase enzymes if they happen to clump wrong. They are temporary and can be expensive. There are possibly harmful ones you have to stay away from (like the irreversible ones (I seem to remember Juvederm) and especially - gods above! - silicone, unless you like the Priscilla Presley look).

I personally don't think the OP really has a problem, though, so I personally would not start fillers already this early if I were him.

Edited by nowayout, 05 July 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[drtom]

Are you taking C60oo fullerene, ironfistx?

Since I've been taking it some previously noticeable wrinkles have faded considerably.

Friends that hadn't seen me for a while have remarked, without prompting, that I look younger.

Two deep scars have faded to being almost invisible.

C60oo fullerene has done more than all the vitamins and antioxidants I've ever taken have done for my skin collagen.

Niner is right about sugars. Lower carb diets are anti-aging.

I also note that I am one who believes that taking C60oo every day is best.

I've taken 7 mg every morning since early August and will continue.

Do you have any before/after photos?

[TheFountain]

Just because something makes theoretical sense, shows some activity in the test tube, or has a patent, do not mean it will work. Almost no substances satisfying these three criteria actually work, so you might as well save your money until something proven comes along. (Especially patents are mostly based on someone's daydreams, hussied up with convincing-sounding language.) As far as I am aware, the only substances for which is any serious proof of (mild) effectiveness at reversing some damage are retinoids, and even for them the evidence is not overwhelmingly convincing by any means. And retinoids can actually make future damage more likely.

If anything really effective existed, everyone would be using it already.

But they are using retinoids. If you go to any drug store cosmetics section you'll see plenty of products with some amount of retinoids aimed at reducing wrinkles.

Yeah, retinoids have some research behind them but the effect (of the stronger prescription-only retinoids) is unfortunately either very slight or even for many people nothing at all, never mind the OTC ones.

I recommend against using retinoids because

1-Too much upkeep, having to stay out of the sun even with sunblock!

2-They are irritating to the skin unless you are so utterly careful with your regimen that you are almost non-existent with regard to focusing on anything else in your regimen.

3-There are better alternatives, such as Amlactin which is A-Over the counter B-Less irritating and C-has been shown in studies to reduce sagging, probably partially do to collagen synthesis. It does make you photosensitive but nowhere near as much as Retinoids.

Wisdom of the day? Balance. I have come to realize that with a decent sunblock 20-30 minutes of sun exposure is very important because the sunblock will not block all the sun, thus allowing you to get some natural vitamin D (I supplement it as well, but it is not really the same feeling) while at the same time still protecting you from serious photo damage. Using the amlactin or similar product every two weeks will also help reverse any minor damages.

Are you taking C60oo fullerene, ironfistx?

Please refrain from bringing this stuff up unless you are willing to share where we can get it. Thanks.

I did - my post a few above. I said, "You can buy it from - http://www.carbon60o....com/index.html"

I actually saw this site during a google search and the items are perpetually out of stock.

[mikey]

Are you taking C60oo fullerene, ironfistx?

Since I've been taking it some previously noticeable wrinkles have faded considerably.

Friends that hadn't seen me for a while have remarked, without prompting, that I look younger.

Two deep scars have faded to being almost invisible.

C60oo fullerene has done more than all the vitamins and antioxidants I've ever taken have done for my skin collagen.

Niner is right about sugars. Lower carb diets are anti-aging.

I also note that I am one who believes that taking C60oo every day is best.

I've taken 7 mg every morning since early August and will continue.

Do you have any before/after photos?

I have before photos from 2011 and am having after photos taken this Sunday.

I had some after photos taken, but the photographer used a reflector, which he didn't use in 2011, so that photo doesn't really work - different lighting - which is why I'm having more photos taken in the same light conditions as the photos from 2011.

Just because something makes theoretical sense, shows some activity in the test tube, or has a patent, do not mean it will work. Almost no substances satisfying these three criteria actually work, so you might as well save your money until something proven comes along. (Especially patents are mostly based on someone's daydreams, hussied up with convincing-sounding language.) As far as I am aware, the only substances for which is any serious proof of (mild) effectiveness at reversing some damage are retinoids, and even for them the evidence is not overwhelmingly convincing by any means. And retinoids can actually make future damage more likely.

If anything really effective existed, everyone would be using it already.

But they are using retinoids. If you go to any drug store cosmetics section you'll see plenty of products with some amount of retinoids aimed at reducing wrinkles.

Yeah, retinoids have some research behind them but the effect (of the stronger prescription-only retinoids) is unfortunately either very slight or even for many people nothing at all, never mind the OTC ones.

I recommend against using retinoids because

1-Too much upkeep, having to stay out of the sun even with sunblock!

2-They are irritating to the skin unless you are so utterly careful with your regimen that you are almost non-existent with regard to focusing on anything else in your regimen.

3-There are better alternatives, such as Amlactin which is A-Over the counter B-Less irritating and C-has been shown in studies to reduce sagging, probably partially do to collagen synthesis. It does make you photosensitive but nowhere near as much as Retinoids.

Wisdom of the day? Balance. I have come to realize that with a decent sunblock 20-30 minutes of sun exposure is very important because the sunblock will not block all the sun, thus allowing you to get some natural vitamin D (I supplement it as well, but it is not really the same feeling) while at the same time still protecting you from serious photo damage. Using the amlactin or similar product every two weeks will also help reverse any minor damages.

Are you taking C60oo fullerene, ironfistx?

Please refrain from bringing this stuff up unless you are willing to share where we can get it. Thanks.

I did - my post a few above. I said, "You can buy it from - http://www.carbon60o....com/index.html"

I actually saw this site during a google search and the items are perpetually out of stock.

Well, I received ten bottles about two weeks ago, and I had never seen the site be out of stock until now.

It's kept me in stock since I started buying from it in early August.

It says"Back Order OK" right now, so one can order and they will get it soon enough.

[Hope47]

Damn! I have been using Tretinoin(0.05%) primarily for acne since 2012(march). Am i doomed?

[mustardseed41]

Damn! I have been using Tretinoin(0.05%) primarily for acne since 2012(march). Am i doomed?

Yes your doomed I say. DOOMED!!!!!!

[Adamzski]

Amlactin I will look at. I have used retin-a in the past and if not used properly it can be damaging, I would never apply it directly under the eyes, just smear a very small amount from other areas. Use it once per week at first.
C60 will not miraculously reduce wrinkles or sagging. Actually there is absolutely no proof that it does absolutely anything at all. I look like crap right now so it is not saving me. Botox, Fillers and fat grafting are the only ways to get rid of wrinkles right now. If you have a spare $600 get half a ml of Restylane in each fold, it will be subtle but noticable to you and no real risk as it will disappear within 4-6 months

[mikey]

Are you taking C60oo fullerene, ironfistx?

Since I've been taking it some previously noticeable wrinkles have faded considerably.

Friends that hadn't seen me for a while have remarked, without prompting, that I look younger.

Two deep scars have faded to being almost invisible.

C60oo fullerene has done more than all the vitamins and antioxidants I've ever taken have done for my skin collagen.

Niner is right about sugars. Lower carb diets are anti-aging.

I also note that I am one who believes that taking C60oo every day is best.

I've taken 7 mg every morning since early August and will continue.

Do you have any before/after photos?

I put up a photo from April, 2011 and a photo from July, 2013 today.
They aren't perfect, but I think it's obvious that my wrinkles have faded considerably.
I'm 60 years old and the current photo looks less "weathered" with wrinkles being faded compared to the photo of me at 58.

Edited by mikey, 14 July 2013 - 09:58 PM.

[mikey]

Damn! I have been using Tretinoin(0.05%) primarily for acne since 2012(march). Am i doomed?

I disagree. Intermittent use of retinoids builds collagen and reduce wrinkles.

There was a time when I did a heavy load of 2% vitamin A around my eyes every day for about two weeks.

It dried the skin and it looked horribly wrinkled for a while.

But after I quit using it the skin reverted to being moist and looked less wrinkled.

So the high dose vitamin A cream caused the skin to first dry and be irritated and then to emerge in a healthier, less wrinkled state.

Ah. I should also mention elastin when talking about reversing skin aging.

[Heyman]

I use a C E Ferulic serum (do it yourself, its way cheaper) apparently this reduces wrinkles a bit (C increases collagen) and helps fend off future aging... I'm not sure if it makes you photosensitive, apparently it protects from the sun to some degree.

[nowayout]

I get some facial rejuvenation when I do intermittent fasting lite consisting of skipping breakfast and having nothing but coffee until after having done weight training after lunchtime.

After a while of this, sagging of facial.structure reduces considerably, indicating some deeper repair than just epidermal.

When I stop doing this and eat more for increading muscle size unfortunately my face becomes blunt and saggy again. I feel like I can't win.

Edited by nowayout, 15 July 2013 - 12:21 PM.