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Nootropics causing a reduced need for sleep?

racetam piracetam noopept sleep

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#1 Xenthide

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:02 PM


I have been experiencing for the past week or so what is undoubtedly a side effect of the nootropic stack I currently take.

My current stack is 800mg Piracetam, 800mg Oxiracetam, 200mg Choline Bitartrate, 10 mg Noopept all 3X daily. I have been taking this for I think a week and a half now and overall it seems to be working great.

But recently I have been sleeping on average probably 5 hours a night, definitely no more than 6. I first noticed this a few days ago when I ended up staying up until 5 AM for various reasons, and then woke up at 9 AM. Any other time I would probably have been exhausted and gone to sleep straight away but I just couldn't sleep anymore (I actually was slightly tired towards the end of this day but that's about it).

The few nights after that I have gone to sleep at a more normal time, but I still wake up after about 5 to 5 and a half hours. When this happens it is literally like I just open my eyes and am like "Time to get up!" When I notice the time I sometimes try to sleep an extra half hour or so but honestly I just don't need to. I don't seem to have trouble actually getting to sleep either (which I know can be a side effect of nootropic stacks for some people, so I have been watching for this), I just wake up very early.

The weirdest thing about this for me is that I don't feel tired. I feel well rested and alert, indeed more awake than I have been in some time. Prior to starting taking nootropics I used to sleep a lot for various reasons (maybe 8 - 9 hours), some mild depression undoubtedly part of it, as well as a habit of staying up until the early hours of the morning, so for me this seems like a drastic change.

But is this something I should be worried about? Has this happened to anyone else, and if so, how has it worked out long term?

#2 deh707

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:41 PM

Yes, you are definitely not alone in this department!

I've had the same experiences since I started taking Piracetam, 3 years ago (I usually cycle Piracetam 3 months on, 1 month off, repeat).

Sleeping for only 4-5 hours and not even feeling the need for a nap throughout the day/night at all; is somewhat mindblowing.

However, I do not know the side-effects of this long-term.

Because of this, I've decided to add 400mg L-Theanine + 500mg L-Tryptophan, and enable "F.LUX" (computer program that increases melatonin production in the brain by dimming bright/blue lights on your monitor) an hour before my desired sleep,

I'm now getting at least 7 hours of sleep, with even better wakefulness throughout the day.

BTW, I'm glad you're having positive results with your -racetams stack. I am willing to bet that it's your lowest-but-effective dose of choline bitartrate that is somewhat responsible for this. Many people make the mistake of dosing too much choline; resulting in negative effects.

For me, I like to dose 150mg Alpha-GPC (once a day), with 400mg Piracetam + 250mg Aniracetam (both 3x a day). I find that lower dosages in general work better for me, along with some others.

Edited by deh707, 03 July 2013 - 08:43 PM.


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#3 calm--

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:18 AM

I'm having pretty much the same thing. I've been taking 2 x 750 mg aniracetam for about a month, and 3 x 800 mg piracetam for about 2 weeks, without any choline, because I've tried some source of choline and they all make me feel bad in some ways (CDP Choline, Choline bitartrate, ALCAR). And I don't feel any side-effects when taking these racetams without choline.

It all went great when I first started the racetams. Although there were some initial fatigue and weirdness, it went away after a few days. Aniracetam make me feel calm and not nervous around people. Piracetam seems to increase my verbal fluency, creativity, and music make me more excited. I was doing great socially.

This last one week though, have been a problem. I could go to sleep easily, and the sleep was great, but I could only slept for 5 hours. At first, I could still function pretty well, but days after days I slept on 5 hours, I felt weaker each days. And the "good feeling" I got from the racetams diminished each days, probably because of the lack of sleep.

Right now, when I'm writing this, it's morning. I just woke up after another 5 hours sleep. I'm feeling tired and can't think clearly, but I can't sleep.

I also took other supplements but this problem only started when I started the racetams. I really don't want to drop the racetams, and hoping to find another supplement to make my sleep normal again.

My bedtime stack, which I've been doing for a couple months and have been great, are 500 mg bacopa, 450 mg ashwagandha, 1 cap of solaray sleep blend (which contain valerian and hops), and 400 mg magnesium citrate. I have a bottle of 400 mg swanson holy basil, and thinking of adding it to my bedtime stack tonight, hoping to get a longer sleep.

I need advice on what to do.

#4 calm--

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:14 AM

One more thing, I seems to be more anxious and irritated each day since this 5 hours sleep. I don't know whether it's the piracetam or because of the lack of sleep.

#5 Xenthide

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:05 AM

Thank you both for your responses.

Because of this, I've decided to add 400mg L-Theanine + 500mg L-Tryptophan, and enable "F.LUX" (computer program that increases melatonin production in the brain by dimming bright/blue lights on your monitor) an hour before my desired sleep,

I'm now getting at least 7 hours of sleep, with even better wakefulness throughout the day.

BTW, I'm glad you're having positive results with your -racetams stack. I am willing to bet that it's your lowest-but-effective dose of choline bitartrate that is somewhat responsible for this. Many people make the mistake of dosing too much choline; resulting in negative effects.

For me, I like to dose 150mg Alpha-GPC (once a day), with 400mg Piracetam + 250mg Aniracetam (both 3x a day). I find that lower dosages in general work better for me, along with some others.

I might try this just for peace of mind. I am aware the L-tryptophan is for melatonin production, and L-Theanine (which I honestly haven't heard much about before, but a quite wikipedia reveals) is for promoting alpha wave production. Would you mind elaborating a little on how you decided on these chemicals specifically? Did you try one first and add the other later for example, or just hit on it straight away?

Also, what specifically do you feel the L-Theanine adds? Not very clued up at the moment about the effects of different "brainwaves" so am interested.

I have taken 5-HTP before as a serotonin precursor (a long time ago now when I was more into somewhat neurotoxic chemicals) in an effort to mitigate MDMA neurotoxicity. I notice L-Tryptophan seems to convert to melatonin via serotonin... does this meamn 5-hydroxytryptophan would do also, or not? (Not particularly important either way I guess, just curious about serotonin's connection to melatonin.)

On the choline thing - I have considered other choline sources but decided to stick with bitartrate for now as for me it's sort of reassuring I guess that it has to go through a metabolic process, whereas Alpha-GPC (if I remember correctly) passes directly through the Blood-Brain Barrier, meaning, I would think, it would be easier to use a more than comfortable dose.


][/size]I'm having pretty much the same thing. I've been taking 2 x 750 mg aniracetam for about a month, and 3 x 800 mg piracetam for about 2 weeks, without any choline, because I've tried some source of choline and they all make me feel bad in some ways (CDP Choline, Choline bitartrate, ALCAR). And I don't feel any side-effects when taking these racetams without choline.

It all went great when I first started the racetams. Although there were some initial fatigue and weirdness, it went away after a few days. Aniracetam make me feel calm and not nervous around people. Piracetam seems to increase my verbal fluency, creativity, and music make me more excited. I was doing great socially.

This last one week though, have been a problem. I could go to sleep easily, and the sleep was great, but I could only slept for 5 hours. At first, I could still function pretty well, but days after days I slept on 5 hours, I felt weaker each days. And the "good feeling" I got from the racetams diminished each days, probably because of the lack of sleep.

Right now, when I'm writing this, it's morning. I just woke up after another 5 hours sleep. I'm feeling tired and can't think clearly, but I can't sleep.

I also took other supplements but this problem only started when I started the racetams. I really don't want to drop the racetams, and hoping to find another supplement to make my sleep normal again.

Ah, that is fairly worrying. I guess it's almost inevitable that there would be some side effects though. Honestly I do feel a little tired this morning so hopefully that is not the start of increasing problems with this sleep weirdness.

I am going to be taking a week break from all Nootropics in about 5 days as I am going on holiday and don't really feel like taking a bunch of relatively unknown (if not actually illegal) pills and powders onto a plane, so that will give my brain a chance to readjust if I don't find another solution in the meantime, after which I will probably start supplementing with at least L-Tryptophan before sleep.

#6 Xenthide

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:04 AM

Just a brief update, I have finally got 7 hours of sleep last night. I am glad because to be honest I feel like something was starting to fray around the edges... now I do feel much better.

I have had an experimental few days trying a few different racetams in various combinations. Yesterday I took 550mg Pramiracetam in the morning which honestly just gave me some serious brain fog all day I think, so I was starting to get pretty lethargic towards the evening. I also tried megadosing some Piracetam (well, 3g, more than I usually ever take) having read something about the increased effectiveness at high doses for some people (really in an effort to uncloud my brain), but I think this either just added to the brain fog or made no difference at all so I think I am going to conclude for now that megadosing Pi is not really effective for me. Anyway so I didn't take any racetam 7 hours before going to sleep.

Weirdly enough this time I actually did have a little trouble actually falling asleep (which could have been the morning Prami I guess), and I still did wake up after 5 hours but this time although I probably could have got up I was actually tired so just turned over and slept another few hours. The initial waking could just be a mental habit at this point even.

So anyway I am not going to take any racetams today, just Noopept, and see how that goes.

I may slowly add some more back in depending, I have some L-Tryptophan now so hopefully that will also be useful if I have any further sleep weirdness.

#7 calm--

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:45 PM

The holy basil I tried last night didn't help. I still woke up after 5 hours and couldn't sleep again. So I stop all the racetams today and I managed to get a long nap. Felt much better after the nap. I'm hoping my sleep will be normal again tonight.

I remembered trying 4800 mg piracetam in the morning and before bed a while ago, for a couple days. I think it gave me brainfog and fatigue. No good feeling at all. I actually slept more hours.

It was on 800 mg when piracetam start to feel good for me, but causing less sleep in the end.

I read somewhere on this forum that brainfog and fatigue is caused by not enough choline.

#8 Xenthide

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:09 PM

I don't think it is necessarily to do with choline deficiency, although obviously I could be wrong - I have pretty much always supplemented a similar amount (which I think, for me at least is optimal - I have experienced the beginnings of what feels like too much choline, weird muscle aches and peripheral effects - jaw tension, etc.) and this does not cause brain fog without changing other factors (eg, more Piracetam, or different racetams). So while choline can be a factor in brain fog, I don't think it is necessarily the most likely culprit (in my own general experience of course).

Anyway, I did not think that Noopept would have the same affect as the racetams but I recently tried megadosing some Noopept (100mg per dose) and also had a very very busy day, honestly I didn't notice anything that great about the megadose effect and still today I wake up after only 4 hours.

I guess it could be down to a much greater abundance of whichever metabolite of Noopept is a racetam however in which case megadosing is definitely not optimal for me. Took 10mg in the morning and felt GREAT. Second 100mg dose just didn't match up at all. Either way I have some L-Tryptophan now so will be using that tonight to hopefully sort out this sleep issue once and for all.

#9 Xenthide

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:19 AM

I guess I will just keep updating this thread so my experiences can hopefully benefit others.

Took some L-Tryptophan about an hour before going to sleep yesterday, I think I definitely noticed the difference falling asleep, and then I slept until 6.5 hours later - I actually felt pretty groggy still (morning grogginess is a feeling I have not experienced hardly at all since beginning nootropic dosing), and ate some breakfast and did a little exercise then just thought damn I should try to sleep more so lay down and got another hours sleep. Feel much better now. I should mention that I did dose my usual 10mg of noopept shortly after breakfast so I don't believe that normal doses of noopept inhibit sleep directly (whereas the normal racetams in my experience probably do).

It is hard to tell exactly how much L-Tryptophan I took since I measured with a teaspoon, but it was about 2/3 full and quite heaped... I believe this should be around 3 grams thought going by what I have read online (that half a teaspoon is around 2250mg). Also another warning for everyone who's never dosed L-Tryptophan before, mix it with something... I made the mistake of just eating it off the teaspoon and washing it down, but it immediately turns into a thick disgustingly textured paste as soon as it hit my mouth.

Edited by Xenthide, 07 July 2013 - 09:20 AM.


#10 calm--

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:24 PM

I surely am interested with your progress. Keep us updated Xenthide :)

#11 calm--

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 01:48 AM

I've managed to get rid of the sleep problem. You can see the detail here :
http://www.longecity...ed/#entry629022

#12 Hansen213

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 06:57 PM

Try to drink 1 or 2 cups of tea with Tulsi (Indian basilicum) before going to sleep. Don´t drink it in the last hour before going to bed since you might get up in the middle if night with the urge to pee.

This helped me a lot with my sleep problems caused through stress, although it doesn´t work every night.

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#13 LabRat

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:33 PM

Ok so the right amount of choline is always helpful, but otherwise, let's see, can't sleep, feeling fried and agitated, totally overstimulated.... Try taking much more of everything! Oh no wait, maybe less is the way to go, call me crazy...





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