16 replies to this topic

[The Immortalist]

[shadowhawk]

As a libertarian, I champion free speech so I am on the side of generally allowing openness of thoughtful expression. However, that does not mean I agree with everything I see or read, nor do I think it is just nurtural. (Holocaust) The anti Jewish, Christian, Theist, cartoon posted here reminds me of the hate speech and propaganda put out against the Jews by the Nazis. Most educated people have seen the hate speech cartoons put out by the Nazis but if you have not, just Goggle it for an eye full.

This cartoon is the same kind of ilk. It doesn’t even identify what group of theists it is casting its hate speech against so one is left with the feeling, every theist is in view. That is the vast majority of Humanity It doesn’t depict any God I ever knew.

I carefully listened to the video a couple of times, in case there was something I wanted to respond too. What a joke and it’s nothing more than a hate speech cartoon. Dumb. Lets have a real discussion.

[shadowhawk]

[The Immortalist]

As a libertarian, I champion free speech so I am on the side of generally allowing openness of thoughtful expression. However, that does not mean I agree with everything I see or read, nor do I think it is just nurtural. (Holocaust) The anti Jewish, Christian, Theist, cartoon posted here reminds me of the hate speech and propaganda put out against the Jews by the Nazis. Most educated people have seen the hate speech cartoons put out by the Nazis but if you have not, just Goggle it for an eye full.

This cartoon is the same kind of ilk. It doesn’t even identify what group of theists it is casting its hate speech against so one is left with the feeling, every theist is in view. That is the vast majority of Humanity It doesn’t depict any God I ever knew.

I carefully listened to the video a couple of times, in case there was something I wanted to respond too. What a joke and it’s nothing more than a hate speech cartoon. Dumb. Lets have a real discussion.

The video does have truth in it. People who believe in god usually wouldn't think about if their god has a god. If their god doesn't have a god the implication is that their god is an atheist. At the end of the video it talks about the fact in how humanity created religion because they wanted to desperately have the answers to things they couldn't find out because of the lack of technology at the time.

The only hateful component is how Yahwehs(The christian and jewish god) personality is portrayed which I agree is in bad taste.

Edited by The Immortalist, 12 July 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[shadowhawk]

As a libertarian, I champion free speech so I am on the side of generally allowing openness of thoughtful expression. However, that does not mean I agree with everything I see or read, nor do I think it is just nurtural. (Holocaust) The anti Jewish, Christian, Theist, cartoon posted here reminds me of the hate speech and propaganda put out against the Jews by the Nazis. Most educated people have seen the hate speech cartoons put out by the Nazis but if you have not, just Goggle it for an eye full.

This cartoon is the same kind of ilk. It doesn’t even identify what group of theists it is casting its hate speech against so one is left with the feeling, every theist is in view. That is the vast majority of Humanity It doesn’t depict any God I ever knew.

I carefully listened to the video a couple of times, in case there was something I wanted to respond too. What a joke and it’s nothing more than a hate speech cartoon. Dumb. Lets have a real discussion.

The video does have truth in it. People who believe in god usually wouldn't think about if their god has a god. If their god doesn't have a god the implication is that their god is an atheist. At the end of the video it talks about the fact in how humanity created religion because they wanted to desperately have the answers to things they couldn't find out because of the lack of technology at the time.

The only hateful component is how Yahwehs(The christian and jewish god) personality is portrayed which I agree is in bad taste.

Most bigotry has some truth in it. That is why some bigots are attracted to it. They think it makes sense. It depends what kind of religious views of God you are talking about when you make absolute statements about “People who believe in God...” Most theists know some people believe in more than one God. Who are you talking about When referring to “People who believe in god?”

Monotheists believe in ONE God who knows there is only ONE God and that does not make God an atheist. What logical nonsense but it fits your ugly bigoted video.

It is not a “FACT’ that humanity created religion because they wanted to “desperately” have the answers to things they couldn’t find out because of the lack of “TECHNOLOGY” at the time. Tell me how technology established your thesis about God? Sounds like you are the desperate one, with no technological evidence.

We agree, the video is in bad taste but that is not the only issue.

As usual, no moderators?

[shadowhawk]

Immortalist : "The video does have truth in it."

I forgot, can you identify the truth? If you can, what is it?

[YOLF]

Bigots go to bogotry because something has left them feeling insecure or less than safe in some way. So offering bigotry like a carrot on a stick is a good way to identify who the system failed. Nothing more, nothing less. The existence of a carrot taker shows the existence of a failure.

So what would the alternative to "god or atheism" be? God(s) or Atheism(s) or X?

[shadowhawk]

Bigots go to bogotry because something has left them feeling insecure or less than safe in some way. So offering bigotry like a carrot on a stick is a good way to identify who the system failed. Nothing more, nothing less. The existence of a carrot taker shows the existence of a failure.

So what would the alternative to "god or atheism" be? God(s) or Atheism(s) or X?

Off topic. However, how do you apply your carrot to the bigotry being discussed? Who did the system fail? Identify them because it is not obvious. What is the system that caused the carrot to be offered? I think bigotry is the carrot for you, Right? If so who is at fault, the objects of bigotry? They failed bu causing the carrot? How?

You would have to believe in an X. You tell me what you believe X is.

Lets not get to far off the topic. I want to hear some answers from the imortalist, to my previous questions.

Edited by shadowhawk, 15 July 2013 - 07:15 PM.

[YOLF]

I'm having trouble with your grammar, but yes. Bigotry is a carrot on a stick for an otherwise innocent person who suffers from alienation or some other form of social separation and feels the need join a group that takes a strong stance and would not turn to religion if they don't particularly believe in or properly understand god. Further, they reinforce themselves with said thinking and apply themselves all the harder in search of friendship and community and can wind up pretty lost and return to their isolation. Meanwhile, the bigots are social elements looking to further isolate said innocent through pretense. This is the carrot on a stick. The bait is community and trading commodity is bigotry. Given that isolation is unnatural, such an individual will press harder and harder in an effort gain community at an increasing cost and end their solitude. When does it end? The failure is of society failing to nurture said individual and the "perp" is any organized social group who's goal is to bait people into becoming a bigot or otherwise in an effort to limit their lives for their own safety. This system ignores it's own potential to create problems rather than stem them essentially creating martyrs.

I don't really know what X is. Atheism may actually be more religious than Jesus/Vishnu/Buddah/Mohammed etc seeing as the members of these organizations know that god isn't some kind of magic being in the sky and Atheists at face value don't always make that clear enough or are (possibly) uninformed enough to serve the purposes of religion by being silly atheists rather than helping the lost find the truth of it all.

X is a disbelief of both the righteousness of god and religious organizations in general and of atheism being not or non theistic. An Xer would say "I don't believe the creation of god by man was the correct thing to do, and I don't believe a lack in the existance of god... obviously god exists and we created him. Xers know god exists and knows that god is just a collection of people empowered by the community to act with a particular authority (something an Xer would dispute) and who believe that what they're doing is righteous and ethical. Xers see atheists as potentially misleading people and preventing them from understanding this as fact and hearing it from the horse's mouth while horse (religion) goes on with their masquerade or was just left ignorant by the church type religious. An Xer would thus, not being able to be part of something, would do his best as an independant to explain the truth to people rather than leave them in the pain of ignorance.

[shadowhawk]

cryonicsculture: Bigots go to bigotry because something has left them feeling insecure or less than safe in some way. So offering bigotry like a carrot on a stick is a good way to identify who the system failed. Nothing more, nothing less. The existence of a carrot taker shows the existence of a failure.

So what would the alternative to "god or atheism" be? God(s) or Atheism(s) or X?

I'm having trouble with your grammar, but yes. Bigotry is a carrot on a stick for an otherwise innocent person who suffers from alienation or some other form of social separation and feels the need join a group that takes a strong stance and would not turn to religion if they don't particularly believe in or properly understand god. Further, they reinforce themselves with said thinking and apply themselves all the harder in search of friendship and community and can wind up pretty lost and return to their isolation. Meanwhile, the bigots are social elements looking to further isolate said innocent through pretense. This is the carrot on a stick. The bait is community and trading commodity is bigotry. Given that isolation is unnatural, such an individual will press harder and harder in an effort gain community at an increasing cost and end their solitude. When does it end? The failure is of society failing to nurture said individual and the "perp" is any organized social group who's goal is to bait people into becoming a bigot or otherwise in an effort to limit their lives for their own safety. This system ignores it's own potential to create problems rather than stem them essentially creating martyrs.

So I did understand you correctly. This would make The Immortalist a bigot and this is your analysis of what makes him tick. I am not calling The Immortalist a bigot such as you are, but the film is bigoted. A pseudo analysis of The Immortalist is beyond my ability and knowledge base. Unlike you, I do not know him. I am addressing the film. You know a lot about The Immortalist that I don’t and do not recognize as being true. This is about the film.

cryonicsculture: I don't really know what X is. Atheism may actually be more religious than Jesus/Vishnu/Buddah/Mohammed etc seeing as the member The Immortalists of these organizations know that god isn't some kind of magic being in the sky and Atheists at face value don't always make that clear enough or are (possibly) uninformed enough to serve the purposes of religion by being silly atheists rather than helping the lost find the truth of it all.

This is nonsense. Jesus and Mohammed both believed in God, as did Vishnu. We do not know about Buddha. None are Atheists. Off topic.

cryonicsculture: X is a disbelief of both the righteousness of god and religious organizations in general and of atheism being not or non theistic. An Xer would say "I don't believe the creation of god by man was the correct thing to do, and I don't believe a lack in the existence of god... obviously god exists and we created him. Xers know god exists and knows that god is just a collection of people empowered by the community to act with a particular authority (something an Xer would dispute) and who believe that what they're doing is righteous and ethical. Xers see atheists as potentially misleading people and preventing them from understanding this as fact and hearing it from the horse's mouth while horse (religion) goes on with their masquerade or was just left ignorant by the church type religious. An Xer would thus, not being able to be part of something, would do his best as an independant to explain the truth to people rather than leave them in the pain of ignoranc

You clammed you didn’t know what Xer is and then now claim to know what it is. Off topic and confused. Start another topic with these ideas and I would bd happy to address these issues with you there. I do not want to lose the topic here so I will not answer you if you persist in going off topic here..

[YOLF]

This is a response to the film and some thoughts regarding ethical standpoints. I'm not calling anyone a bigot, I'm saying that "bigots" or rather, those thought to be bigots are people who would otherwise be ignorant if instead of baiting them into negative lifestyle, we tried filling their life with whatever left them isolated. I'm saying the bigot fell throught the cracks or something to that effect. It has quite a bit to do with this discussion. I'm just drawing attention to a wrong that I see and have no hard feelings for The Immortalist whatsoever. My definitions and judgements appear to differ? But the basis for what I'm saying is that the behavior associated with the development of bigotry is predictable, and can be reverse engineered. So why make a person prone to bigotry? I know why it is done, I just don't agree with it being justified. Kindness to a suffering person is justified. Further alienation and leading them into a negative lifestyle will shorten and impair their life when social failures are to blame for the development of their bigotry or other negative lifestyle. Society is responsible for helping that person come to a positive and enlightened/understanding life. Ignorance is not happiness or bliss, it is murder of the spirit or soul... I'm a little too tired to be figuring it out right now.

Good night.

As far as the change, it evolved and became a meta viewpoint.

As far as the video goes, it obscures the truth of the method of religion and therefore leaves the viewer subject to manipulation... it's bad atheism IMO or is actually direct manipulation should the creator have known better.

For later discussion:

Edited by cryonicsculture, 16 July 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[shadowhawk]

cryonicsculture: This is a response to the film and some thoughts regarding ethical standpoints. I'm not calling anyone a bigot, I'm saying that "bigots" or rather, those thought to be bigots are people who would otherwise be ignorant if instead of baiting them into negative lifestyle, we tried filling their life with whatever left them isolated. I'm saying the bigot fell throught the cracks or something to that effect.

When are you going to deal with the film you claim you are responding to? Upon what basis (evidence) are you describing bigots. So far nothing.

It has quite a bit to do with this discussion. I'm just drawing attention to a wrong that I see and have no hard feelings for The Immortalist whatsoever. My definitions and judgements appear to differ? But the basis for what I'm saying is that the behavior associated with the development of bigotry is predictable, and can be reverse engineered. So why make a person prone to bigotry? I know why it is done, I just don't agree with it being justified. Kindness to a suffering person is justified. Further alienation and leading them into a negative lifestyle will shorten and impair their life when social failures are to blame for the development of their bigotry or other negative lifestyle.

So far you have said nothing about the film nor the subject of the topic. On top of that there is no evidence for your views on bigotry. Who is “Making,” a person prone to bigotry, be a bigot? Who is the “suffering person?” Who led them into a “negative,” lifestyle? What social failures? How about answering these requests before we go on.

Society is responsible for helping that person come to a positive and enlightened/understanding life. Ignorance is not happiness or bliss, it is murder of the spirit or soul... I'm a little too tired to be figuring it out right now.
Good night.

Who are you talking about? Not the topic.

As far as the change, it evolved and became a meta viewpoint.

As far as the video goes, it obscures the truth of the method of religion and therefore leaves the viewer subject to manipulation... it's bad atheism IMO or is actually direct manipulation should the creator have known better.

So cartoon Dave the atheist, is a nice guy after all, the video you submitted clams. OK. I fail to see how anything you are saying has anything to do with the topic of this thread nor the hate filled anti Theist, view it is based upon.

[YOLF]

I'm reading the film on a different level apparently or you're trying to prevent people from understanding what I meant. I can't understand a single one of your responses... There's a canyon between us and your argument is misleading people as to the meaning of my statements.

I said I'd discuss it later. But anyways, Dave the atheist lives a life of confusion after having been fed seeds of weirdness and the video doesn't straighten it out for someone like Dave the atheist. So a future Dave the atheist will naturally follow the progression of Dave the atheist, or something like it, and himself wind up very confused. We're leaving a confused person confused... It's an existential wrong that's being committed in this case.

The point I'm making is that Dave may have had a minor flaw resulting from something that was missing in his life and so he was suggested, provoked, and later baited into his unsure state and further suggested (being in a state of self-uncertainty one naturally becomes suggestible... he could be suggested into anything, so why not give him a good option... why keep him stupid and controlled?). There always has to be a fool, and Dave is it for what was originally a very tiny and easily correctible fault. Yet the status quo dictates that he must be made a lifetime fool and it will get harder and harder for Dave the older he gets. Would Dave choose immortality knowing what suffering he's endured? Would maintaining his ignorance for 10,000 years be ethical? I understand that that's ok with the religious and even the atheist types, but to me a week is too long to lose. And after all that sacrafice, what does he get for it? How has it benefitted him to made such a fool?

I suggest to anyone still following my posts, that you contact me directly if you're interested in understanding what I have to say. Reading the other side of the argument may be hazardous to your mental health, and may impair your ability to get dates, make friends, find jobs, or operate a vehicle (the last one was a joke, the rest are quite serious).

I won't be made a fool, I'm leaving the thread.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 17 July 2013 - 12:43 AM.

[shadowhawk]

I'm reading the film on a different level apparently or you're trying to prevent people from understanding what I meant. I can't understand a single one of your responses... There's a canyon between us and your argument is misleading people as to the meaning of my statements.

I said I'd discuss it later. But anyways, Dave the atheist lives a life of confusion after having been fed seeds of weirdness and the video doesn't straighten it out for someone like Dave the atheist. So a future Dave the atheist will naturally follow the progression of Dave the atheist, or something like it, and himself wind up very confused. We're leaving a confused person confused... It's an existential wrong that's being committed in this case.

The point I'm making is that Dave may have had a minor flaw resulting from something that was missing in his life and so he was suggested, provoked, and later baited into his unsure state and further suggested (being in a state of self-uncertainty one naturally becomes suggestible... he could be suggested into anything, so why not give him a good option... why keep him stupid and controlled?). There always has to be a fool, and Dave is it for what was originally a very tiny and easily correctible fault. Yet the status quo dictates that he must be made a lifetime fool and it will get harder and harder for Dave the older he gets. Would Dave choose immortality knowing what suffering he's endured? Would maintaining his ignorance for 10,000 years be ethical? I understand that that's ok with the religious and even the atheist types, but to me a week is too long to lose. And after all that sacrafice, what does he get for it? How has it benefitted him to made such a fool?

I suggest to anyone still following my posts, that you contact me directly if you're interested in understanding what I have to say. Reading the other side of the argument may be hazardous to your mental health, and may impair your ability to get dates, make friends, find jobs, or operate a vehicle (the last one was a joke, the rest are quite serious).

I won't be made a fool, I'm leaving the thread.

Wow it sounds like you think I an trying to call or make you out to be a fool. If I gave you that impression I apologize. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I wanted you to stay on topic and relate to what was going on. This obviously is a hot topic.

I also had a hard time understanding what you were and are talking about. Still do. Again, I am sorry and wish you well.

Edited by shadowhawk, 17 July 2013 - 11:54 PM.

[sthira]

Wouldn't it be cool if god actually did exist and was, like, cool? I mean, god would drop in on us poor schlubs every now and then, and, like, pat us on the heads and tell us all the shit's gonna be ok? God could like fly around and tell us a few jokes and god could be nice to us and tell us to be gentle and kind and sweet to each other. Be sweet to our earth, god could say, and hey all you ape humans i created please be good to all the plants and animals. What if god was actually present and decent and cool and would actually give us hints about stuff?

But no. Just our luck. We got stuck with this mysterious, nonexistent god who thinks he's so cool by being totally silent, completely devoid of humor and kindness, and totally, well, useless. Dead god.

Cmon god: if you exist come fly around and tell us a few weird jokes. Can't you see that we're all pretty confused and lonely and lost?

[shadowhawk]

Wouldn't it be cool if god actually did exist and was, like, cool? I mean, god would drop in on us poor schlubs every now and then, and, like, pat us on the heads and tell us all the shit's gonna be ok? God could like fly around and tell us a few jokes and god could be nice to us and tell us to be gentle and kind and sweet to each other. Be sweet to our earth, god could say, and hey all you ape humans i created please be good to all the plants and animals. What if god was actually present and decent and cool and would actually give us hints about stuff?

But no. Just our luck. We got stuck with this mysterious, nonexistent god who thinks he's so cool by being totally silent, completely devoid of humor and kindness, and totally, well, useless. Dead god.

Cmon god: if you exist come fly around and tell us a few weird jokes. Can't you see that we're all pretty confused and lonely and lost?

Good post. Some of us recognize some things in your post as in fact happening. However, we know God who is more than a cool jokester. It is not all ok as anyone can see knows, and God tells us about it.

God does not have to fly and tell jokes and He can see humans are confused, lonely and lost. You can know God but God is more than a joke.

The trouble with your post, is it’s off topic. Perhaps we can correct that.

[TheBatman]

What if the universe has laws, like karma in a way, where everything stupid you did or person you hurt came back to bite you. Maybe God has just learned how to avoid heartache and has learned to become untouched by harm. Maybe He sent us here to learn how to be the same way so we could learn how to stop getting hurt and find happiness. To make us self reliant instead of being told where to go and what to be doing with our lives - cause that would suck.

IMO God has been through exactly what we are going through, otherwise He wouldn't be more powerful than us. I think it's safe to say He didn't just stumble upon a throne in heaven...

BTW I do believe in the Hebrew God and I don't think He is silent. I think He gives us all the advise we need through the Bible and other historical texts.

Edited by TheBatman, 21 August 2013 - 06:08 AM.