17 replies to this topic

[psao]

Well heres the thing, im a very introverted person. I think alot before i talk, i prefer listening over talking, i have a hard time in social situations really. Now im starting a new job. Im getting into sales, im going to be knocking on peoples doors etc and trying to sell them stuff! What i like to do in my spare time is read psychology and human behaviourism. What i've gotten is a golden oppurtunity to explore my theories further and improve as a person.



So what im wondering is, what is the best racetam for becoming more extrovered. aka make it easier for me to talk with other people etc?
Almost like when you've had 2-3 glasses of wine and you can talk to anyone!

[mrd1]

"The findings suggest that extraversion is associated with variation in the acquisition of contexts that predict reward. Over time, this variation may lead to differences in the breadth of networks of conditioned contexts. Thus, individual differences in extraversion may be maintained by activation of differentially encoded central representations of incentive contexts that predict reward." (On the nature of extraversion: variation in conditioned contextual activation of dopamine-facilitated affective, cognitive, and motor processes)

Key terms here
-acquisition- learning or developing of a skill, habit, or quality.
- condtioned contexts- contexts that exhibit a conditioned response (hence, showing learning "acquisition" has occured)


So, basically you just got to associate being a extrovert in those contexts with it being rewarded either with a secondary reinforcer (e.x. money) or a primary reinforcer (Ex. sex) .

Here is a silly example,

Suppose every time you went to a middle class house and a desirable woman answered just about every time you talked alot she was impressed and immediately had sex with you right there.

In that context, every time you went a house that resembles a middle class home and a attractive woman answered I suspect youd quickly become more and more extroverted IN THAT CONTEXT!

This is because you are making the association between that context and a reinforcer so after you act more extroverted, as a result, the acquisition (paring of a context and a reward) has taken place and Bam, learning.

To oversimplify,

Be good and just do it!

Edited by mrd1, 31 August 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

I had similar concerns when I was going to start working as a shop assistant in a book shop. I learned to become socially pleasant in a positive way from customers who came in. You notice which ones are pleasant, and when you start to analyse what they do, they tend to be alert, smiling, and not self-centered.

I became a decent sales person, and I did not use any aggressive tactics at all. Rather I just tried to learn as much as I could about the product, and the second thing I did was to cultivate a strong eye for noticing signals, a listening ear, and a friendly attitude.

Try to think of each person you meet as a new potential friend. Try to picture yourself in their shoes and try to generate a feeling of friendliness and concern for their well-being.

Use these feelings and put them into action - by how you listen to them, by your tone of voice and body language, and by what you choose to say. Don't think that each customer MUST buy something, when you become desperate it will show, and they will be less interested. If you show a genuine interest in them as well as respect, they will have a positive attitude toward you and don't feel pushed into a corner. If a salesman approaches me in a 'smooth talking' or 'aggressive' manner, I refuse to even listen to them, so be mindful of how you approach them. If you are going to give compliments, make sure they are based on sincere observation.

Try to think about the most pleasant people you know, contemplate what it is exactly that makes you and others like them, then 'copy' those characteristics (to the extent that you can without it feeling totally unnatural). ;-) Even if you don't close a deal with every customer, you will have a better experience on the job, and eventually your attitude will also pay off in terms of closed sales.

[Sasha_]

These guys above have given you very good advices, and you should probably consider following them and keeping off supplementing if you can. But to answer specifically on the racetams, in my experience it would be aniracetam that gives the best result with regards to decreasing anxiety in social situations, making you feel more open and mindful towards others. You could also add a bit of noopept to the aniracetam, they synergize beautifully.
Personnaly, taking this stack at the beginning of a new experience allows me to adapt quicker, by enhancing my thinking and focus, and suppressing my anxiety. After a time, once I feel I have a good handling of that new experience/situation, I go off the stack and don't need to return to it, my learning is done and I no longer need the supps to help me behave appropriately .
Hope that helps.

Edited by Sasha_, 02 September 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[Godof Smallthings]

These guys above have given you very good advices, and you should probably consider following them and keeping off supplementing if you can. But to answer specifically on the racetams, in my experience it would be aniracetam that gives the best result with regards to decreasing anxiety in social situations, making you feel more open and mindful towards others. You could also add a bit of noopept to the aniracetam, they synergize beautifully.
Personnaly, taking this stack at the beginning of a new experience allows me to adapt quicker, by enhancing my thinking and focus, and suppressing my anxiety. After a time, once I feel I have a good handling of that new experience/situation, I go off the stack and don't need to return to it, my learning is done and I no longer need the supps to help me behave appropriately .
Hope that helps.

This is how I hoped they would work for me. Unfortunately I found neither aniracetam nor noopept were good for me. Aniracetam first made me lose focus, then it reintroduced excessive, tunnel vision focus, and then ended the day with an energy crash. Noopept wrecked my working memory, made me stumble over my words, led to greater irritability, worsened mood and lowered my impulse control - it had no noticeable positive benefits for me.

It's fascinating that brain chemistries can differ so widely as they do. Makes you realize how differently we sometimes must perceive the world, too, given that our chemical soups likely create very different filtering mechanisms.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 02 September 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Sasha_]

These guys above have given you very good advices, and you should probably consider following them and keeping off supplementing if you can. But to answer specifically on the racetams, in my experience it would be aniracetam that gives the best result with regards to decreasing anxiety in social situations, making you feel more open and mindful towards others. You could also add a bit of noopept to the aniracetam, they synergize beautifully.
Personnaly, taking this stack at the beginning of a new experience allows me to adapt quicker, by enhancing my thinking and focus, and suppressing my anxiety. After a time, once I feel I have a good handling of that new experience/situation, I go off the stack and don't need to return to it, my learning is done and I no longer need the supps to help me behave appropriately .
Hope that helps.

This is how I hoped they would work for me. Unfortunately I found neither aniracetam nor noopept were good for me. Aniracetam first made me lose focus, then it reintroduced excessive, tunnel vision focus, and then ended the day with an energy crash. Noopept wrecked my working memory, made me stumble over my words, led to greater irritability, worsened mood and lowered my impulse control - it had no noticeable positive benefits for me.

It's fascinating that brain chemistries can differ so widely as they do. Makes you realize how differently we sometimes must perceive the world, too, given that our chemical soups likely create very different filtering mechanisms.

Interresting, I assume you were supplementing with fish oil, B vitamins and choline, which seems to be the only way to properly use racetams for most of us.
Did you have any good result with other nootropics then ?

[nupi]

"The findings suggest that extraversion is associated with variation in the acquisition of contexts that predict reward. Over time, this variation may lead to differences in the breadth of networks of conditioned contexts. Thus, individual differences in extraversion may be maintained by activation of differentially encoded central representations of incentive contexts that predict reward." (On the nature of extraversion: variation in conditioned contextual activation of dopamine-facilitated affective, cognitive, and motor processes)

Key terms here
-acquisition- learning or developing of a skill, habit, or quality.
- condtioned contexts- contexts that exhibit a conditioned response (hence, showing learning "acquisition" has occured)


So, basically you just got to associate being a extrovert in those contexts with it being rewarded either with a secondary reinforcer (e.x. money) or a primary reinforcer (Ex. sex) .

Here is a silly example,

Suppose every time you went to a middle class house and a desirable woman answered just about every time you talked alot she was impressed and immediately had sex with you right there.

In that context, every time you went a house that resembles a middle class home and a attractive woman answered I suspect youd quickly become more and more extroverted IN THAT CONTEXT!

This is because you are making the association between that context and a reinforcer so after you act more extroverted, as a result, the acquisition (paring of a context and a reward) has taken place and Bam, learning.

To oversimplify,

Be good and just do it!

tl;dr: Success breeds confidence.

However, confidence and extroversion may have similar effects to a casual observer (people talk more) but most definitely are fairly different things. Extroverts need people around them (the fact that they are there is an inherent reward to them). Introverts? Not so much.

[mrd1]

True! So, is it possible that confidence and extroversion are not mutually independent of one another?

Perhaps, if a introverted person makes the associations between being social and recieving a desirable outcome than they will, (although possibly requiring more certainty and much more pairings of the behavior and desirable outcome than a extrovert), begin to naturally act extraverted in that contex.

So, I guess what I am suggesting is that perhaps Extraversion/intraversion is not a fixed constant trait but rather a continium that is both dependant on biological factors and environmental factors the "context" and even cognitive and "unconscious" feelings and thoughts many of which they may not be aware of.

[nupi]

I doubt they are intimately linked. However, I would support that some people have a lower setpoint for confidence than others. It's also different across people to what degree confidence transcends different domains.

Maybe we need a definition of extroversion first. If we are to use the Myers-Briggs definition then I am quite convinced that it is an innate trait.

Edited by nupi, 03 September 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[mrd1]

I believe that Myers-Briggs definition of extroversion, while quite popular, lacks the vigor to be considered true "science". My primary concern is the "50% variation in scores when replicated just a few weeks apart." This to me suggests that it fails to be a reliable measure of what it is trying to measure. Also, since it is pretty hard to prove or disprove. I think that terminology like this is what holds psychology back as a science when social theories are mixed up with true science.

[PWAIN]

If you look at this, I don't see how just a bit more confidence will change a person to an extrovert:

• Extraverts are "action" oriented, while introverts are "thought" oriented.
• Extraverts seek "breadth" of knowledge and influence, while introverts seek "depth" of knowledge and influence.
• Extraverts often prefer more "frequent" interaction, while introverts prefer more "substantial" interaction.
• Extraverts recharge and get their energy from spending time with people, while introverts recharge and get their energy from spending time alone.

[Godof Smallthings]

These guys above have given you very good advices, and you should probably consider following them and keeping off supplementing if you can. But to answer specifically on the racetams, in my experience it would be aniracetam that gives the best result with regards to decreasing anxiety in social situations, making you feel more open and mindful towards others. You could also add a bit of noopept to the aniracetam, they synergize beautifully.
Personnaly, taking this stack at the beginning of a new experience allows me to adapt quicker, by enhancing my thinking and focus, and suppressing my anxiety. After a time, once I feel I have a good handling of that new experience/situation, I go off the stack and don't need to return to it, my learning is done and I no longer need the supps to help me behave appropriately .
Hope that helps.

This is how I hoped they would work for me. Unfortunately I found neither aniracetam nor noopept were good for me. Aniracetam first made me lose focus, then it reintroduced excessive, tunnel vision focus, and then ended the day with an energy crash. Noopept wrecked my working memory, made me stumble over my words, led to greater irritability, worsened mood and lowered my impulse control - it had no noticeable positive benefits for me.

It's fascinating that brain chemistries can differ so widely as they do. Makes you realize how differently we sometimes must perceive the world, too, given that our chemical soups likely create very different filtering mechanisms.

Interresting, I assume you were supplementing with fish oil, B vitamins and choline, which seems to be the only way to properly use racetams for most of us.
Did you have any good result with other nootropics then ?

Fish oil is a baseline supplement for me, so yes to that one. I take a B vitamin complex every two or three days. My diet is arguably more complete than the average person (although probably not as well balanced as that of some people here) - anyway, more variety of raw greens and coloured vegetables than what is usual, organic green tea every day, used to supplement 1000 mg curcumin daily, now I take it occasionally. Only occasional pork and red meat. Hardly any processed foods. Very little milk, not much dairy in general, except quality grass fed butter and cheddar cheese. Main fat sources are fish oil, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Grains are whole grain. Sesame seeds, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds.

I have tried using piracetam and aniracetam both with and without choline supplementation. The types of choline I have used are lecithin and alpha GPC. Even at the normal doses, both of them make my body tense up and ruin my mood, even when I take them with fairly high doses of racetams. I do not experience headaches or tension from piracetam or aniracetam without choline. I do find that my appetite for eggs increases when on piracetam though, and the choline from soft boiled eggs does not seem to make me tense or lower my mood.

Nootropics that I've found work for me, in some way:
Piracetam (increases focus and improves mood... may have helped improve my digit span and n-back scores, but I can not say to what extent as I did a lot of brain games that exercise working memory tasks, and the improvements might have happened without piracetam). Synergizes with ALCAR, Ginkgo Biloba and green tea. Also synergizes with coffee, but I crash badly on coffee so the trade-off is usually not worth it.

ALCAR (increased energy and endurance)

Ginkgo Biloba - due to blood flow effect, makes it easier to focus. I seem to easily get a reward feedback loop going with it, so that the increased ease of focusing makes me happy and want to focus more. Just read it helps dopamine, which makes sense.

Sulbutiamine - erases the negative effects of sleep deprivation. May help with focus, but I can not say for sure as I almost always have taken it with other things. Sometimes causes increased tiredness in the evening.

With aniracetam, I should say that once the initial spaciness is gone, it does seem to help with one thing: sustained alertness, but that alertness comes at the price of reduced social abilities - I seem to get more impatient and less empathic.

Apart from those, CoQ10 seems a subtle and smooth way of increasing physical energy, curcumin seems to have boosted my immune system, and extra virgin coconut oil (orally, not on the skin) has improved my skin.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 04 September 2013 - 05:15 AM.

[mrd1]

If you look at this, I don't see how just a bit more confidence will change a person to an extrovert:

• Extraverts are "action" oriented, while introverts are "thought" oriented.
• Extraverts seek "breadth" of knowledge and influence, while introverts seek "depth" of knowledge and influence.
• Extraverts often prefer more "frequent" interaction, while introverts prefer more "substantial" interaction.
• Extraverts recharge and get their energy from spending time with people, while introverts recharge and get their energy from spending time alone.

That is true. But, I also see issues with being able to prove someone is either of these. And, that these things are really stable. And, that people wouldn't just be looking to confirm there on beliefs. And, that this is probably just a social science's weak correlation of maybe .3 or .4 and that correlation does not equal causation and therefore, being a extravert does not cause but rather after a factor analysis of probably well educated white males a weak correlation between these traits showed up. And, because of the appeal and simplicity as well as catchiness of this it has been perverted by pop psychology and causal usage from its proper context to no longer mean anything scientific and rather sell books on how to get that hot babe at barns at nobel or rationalize why your on longecity at 2:56 am alone like me!

"People who eat icecream are more likely to commit violence"

"Therefore, icecream causes violence"

Confounding and extraneous variable excluded in this correlation
"People eat icecream when it is hot"

"When the temperature increase people are more likely to both eat icecream and be violent."

[Sasha_]

Well, don't know if you heard of that book called "QUIET: THE POWER OF INTROVERTS", I mention it because from what I remember, the author (Susan Cain) relies on scientific data to explain the innate differences between extroverts and introverts. Seems we have two different reward system, and we do not respond the same way to a given amount of stimulation, extroverts craving higher stimulation (loud music, bustling crowd) whereas introverts' sweet spot would be a rather calmer environment.
She also explains that there is a posibility for introverts to stretch their nature towards more extroverted behavior, but only to a certain extent, and within each own personal limitation.

Beeing an introvert myself, I don't need to be convinced, but the fact that the science confirms it makes me feel less of a freak in a world that lives under the extrovert ideal.

[mrd1]

I have the book however, I have not read it. I think it is great that it is so well selling and tells people that it is ok to be introverted. However, it is not science but loosely based on science and deff I supspect a tier or two higher than typical blends of self-help, opinions, cheery pop psychology books and I try to avoid things with on the new york times best sellers list because I am a crabby hipster I am sure she has a few good points and a few interesting opinions and a nice support system for introverts and a nice presentation. Hopefully, her book excites further investigation into the field.

[nupi]

I read the book - some pseudoscience and very little useful advice in my view. Still a step up from your average self help book though.

f you look at this, I don't see how just a bit more confidence will change a person to an extrovert:

• Extraverts are "action" oriented, while introverts are "thought" oriented.
• Extraverts seek "breadth" of knowledge and influence, while introverts seek "depth" of knowledge and influence.
• Extraverts often prefer more "frequent" interaction, while introverts prefer more "substantial" interaction.
• Extraverts recharge and get their energy from spending time with people, while introverts recharge and get their energy from spending time alone

That's essentially the Jungian/Myers-Briggs definition which they themselves admit is not cut and dry. In my case the delineation is more large vs small group rather than alone vs with people. Large groups annoy the hell out of me (I am well known to skip any big company outing I can get away from, for example).

I wouldnt say it is totally orthogonal to confidence, either, but everything else equal, the introvert is much more likely stay out of the limelight, given the choice.

Edited by nupi, 08 September 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[chesupp]

Here's my opinion of being an introvert or just not being able to easily adjust to social situations ... I think it all has to do with confidence in the subject matter at hand.

I've always considered myself shy and introverted. I'm normally very quiet around strangers. What I've likened to be the causation of that is that I'm not sure of what to talk about with strangers. Here's the flip side ... I've been at my trade for years ... at work, I'm the exact opposite of being in a social situation/gathering. I'm probably one of the louder ones at work but I speak with full confidence with whatever the subject matter is. No one at work would say I'm the quiet one. That's because I'm fully confident in everything I do or can do at work. Outside of work, I've always kept to myself and busy myself since I was a kid.

So, if I could channel the work me in a social situation then I wouldn't consider myself introverted anymore ...

[mrd1]

Soooo basically it seems like everyone has their own opinion of what a extrovert or a introvert is sooo I guess that leaves me at least with tossing the entire concept in favor of things that are more scientific. Since, I seek to explain and control what I need to cause talking to that girl (The desired behavior). If that behavior is extroversion or not I could really care less. This seems like a endless impossible to fallacy argument.