24 replies to this topic

[exapted]

Any opinions on the supplements in the subject? Are they a big waste of money?

Also, what is your opinion of glutamine supplementation?

There are a lot of claims about 'glutamine peptides' as well as the "green foods" I mentioned in the subject.

[johnmk]

I cannot speak for the rest, but I am aware that many hold a dim view of glutamine supplementation per se.

[scottl]

Exapted,

1. As John points out the conventional view of glutamine in terms of it helping you GET F'IN HUYGE or lift more is that it is probably a waste of money (see Layne the anti-glutamine poster boy on avant). On the other hand, Par (CEO Avant) has posted on other boards then his own (search the ruggedmag.com forum under his name--Par Deus--and glutamine) that it is not so simple. Botton line I'd say that if you have some play with it and see if you notice a difference. If not, I wouldn't necessarily bother getting any for that purpose.

Oh if you're looking into....I think it is Scivation? products, they are...good stuff and there is one with...BCAA, I think glutamine and citruiline (sp?) which is excellent stuff if that kind of product is relevant to you (meaning the BCAA and citruliine work whether or not the glutamine adds anything).

Glutamine is a fuel for the cell lining the intestinal track and if you have any..."GI issues" e.g. leaky gut ir inflammatory bowel disease, etc. it might be a helpful.

As far as "green foods"...I have no clue what the literature says and can't prove anything. Since I do have "gut isssues" I do take one. Kyo green is a good one I've used for ages. Perhaps a much better one is greens plus. Made in canada but available in the US through....vitaminshoppe maybe (google/froogle it).

[exapted]

Sorry for getting back so late. I want to add that I am not trying to gain muscle. I have extensive experience with weight training and decided that it is mostly a waste of time. Now I just do a few compound lifts per week to maintain strength and bone density.

I was wondering if "green foods" like wheat grass, spirulina, kale juice powder, chlorella are particularly rich in bioavailable nutrients. I mentioned glutamine because I have read that glutamine supports the immune system and works as an anti-oxidant.

[scottl]

"particularly rich in bioavailable nutrients"

I do not know what this means. I suspect this may mean you are hoping you can take this and skip the multiple, and I would say no.

[Pablo M]

Perhaps a much better one is greens plus.  Made in canada but available in the US through....vitaminshoppe maybe (google/froogle it).

Since I live in Canada, greens+ is everywhere. It makes me angry to see people buying something that they believe is good for them which may actually be harmful. Here are some highlights of a letter which I sent to the company president and formulator of greens+, Sam Graci:
1) Apple pectin 1033mg: this is just filler. Pectin is the cheapest stuff in the world. Almost 1/8 of what you pay for is pectin.
2) Japanese Chlorella (cracked cell) 383mg: not enough of this. You need at least 1 gram
3) Organic soy sprouts 383mg: Not a good idea to eat non-fermented soy. Trypsin inhibitors and toxins and whatnot. Oral SOD is irrelevant as it will be broken down in the stomach.
4) Organic whole brown rice powder 383mg: uncooked grains also have antinutritional compounds.
5) Stevia leaf powder 224mg: has been shown to decrease testosterone levels when taken consistently; decreases sperm motility.
6) Licorice root extract 116mg: decreases testosterone.
7) Herb and Phytonutrient blend: looks impressive but not enough. 5 mg of grape seed extract? Give me a break.

Because chlorella is, in my opinion, the most important "green" food to take, I just buy it in powder form and mix it it smoothies. A lot cheaper than greens+ and none of the issues listed above.

[exapted]

Thanks. What benefits do you get from chlorella?

[scottl]

dantecubit,

Thanks for...uhhhhh your thoughts.....


I guess you don't like artificial sweetners:

What about the sucralose content? I've read some bad things.

And have changed your mind recently:

I still would like to see a reply from AOR regarding the sucralose content. LEF sweetens their powder with stevia which I am more inclined to feel confident in.

Can anyone shed some light on this issue?.

Perhaps a much better one is greens plus.  Made in canada but available in the US through....vitaminshoppe maybe (google/froogle it
Since I live in Canada, greens+ is everywhere. It makes me angry to see people buying something that they believe is good for them which may actually be harmful. Here are some highlights of a letter which I sent to the company president and formulator of greens+, Sam Graci:
1) Apple pectin 1033mg: this is just filler. Pectin is the cheapest stuff in the world. Almost 1/8 of what you pay for is pectin.
2) Japanese Chlorella (cracked cell) 383mg: not enough of this. You need at least 1 gram
3) Organic soy sprouts 383mg: Not a good idea to eat non-fermented soy. Trypsin inhibitors and toxins and whatnot. Oral SOD is irrelevant as it will be broken down in the stomach.
4) Organic whole brown rice powder 383mg: uncooked grains also have antinutritional compounds.
5) Stevia leaf powder 224mg: has been shown to decrease testosterone levels when taken consistently; decreases sperm motility.
6) Licorice root extract 116mg: decreases testosterone.
7) Herb and Phytonutrient blend: looks impressive but not enough. 5 mg of grape seed extract? Give me a break.

Because chlorella is, in my opinion, the most important "green" food to take, I just buy it in powder form and mix it it smoothies. A lot cheaper than greens+ and none of the issues listed above.

You knock the doses as too small to have any significant positive effects, and then OTOH knock other components for having adverse effects unlikely to be an issue in the quantities stated if at all.

Stevia is my sweetner of choice. Not that I use much....say...?1/8 tsp in my morning oatmeal 4 times/week. What is the documenation that it has the adverse effects you claim in humans at the doses commonly used?

"Japanese Chlorella (cracked cell) 383mg: not enough of this. You need at least 1 gram"
Based on?

To be clear, I do not have strong opinions regarding green products, as I stated above:

"I have no clue what the literature says and can't prove anything. Since I do have "gut isssues" I do take one. Kyo green is a good one I've used for ages. Perhaps a much better one is greens plus".

I suppose I should revisit this at some point, but it is not high on my list.

Any thoughts LifeMirage?

Edited by scottl, 08 June 2005 - 07:17 PM.

[wraith]

This past weekend I bought some frozen wheatgrass juice. Why? Because Sanjay Gupta (CNN's medical correspondent) said it's good for you. I really like him, and perhaps it's foolish of me (am I being unduely influenced by that handsome face?), I take everything he says as being factually correct. He said it has a reputation for clearing up acne. I was starting a bad breakout cycle (that time of the month) so I ran out and got some. I have to say, the stuff works great. I think I've even seen a reduction in my telangiectasia (I have a combination of acne rosacea and acne vulgaris).

I'm so impressed, I thought perhaps selling wheatgrass flats to local juice bars, restaurants and health clubs might be a good line of business to get into. (I bought frozen because fresh isn't available here). Any comments on that idea (such as, "nobody does that; its just not profitable because... ") would be most appreciated.

[Pablo M]

I guess you don't like artificial sweetners

No, I don't.

And have changed your mind recently

Yes, I recently changed my mind about stevia because of information posted in response to my question on the AOR Essential Mix thread. I believe it was Pete from RelentlesImprovement who posted some info from CSPI.

You knock the doses as too small to have any significant positive effects, and then OTOH knock other components for having adverse effects unlikely to be an issue in the quantities stated if at all.

There is more of the licorice and stevia (which I don't consider to be beneficial herbs) than there are of the truly beneficial ones, such as green tea. In The Green Pharmacy, James Duke states that lowered testosterone levels have been observed in men who eat a few grams of licorice daily. Since this is an extract, it is very possible it will have the same effect.

Stevia is my sweetner of choice.  Not that I use much....say...?1/8 tsp in my morning oatmeal 4 times/week.  What is the documenation that it has the adverse effects you claim in humans at the doses commonly used?

Check the last post in the "Essential Mix" thread.

"Japanese Chlorella (cracked cell) 383mg: not enough of this. You need at least 1 gram" Based on?

Jarrow recommends 1-3 teaspoons (5-15 grams) of their chlorella product. It is even possible that this is a conservative dose.

[scottl]

Yes, I recently changed my mind about stevia because of information posted in response to my question on the AOR Essential Mix thread. I believe it was Pete from RelentlesImprovement who posted some info from CSPI.

The link you refer to is here:
http://www.cspinet.o...et_nothings.pdf

If you read Pete's comment he stated: "The report is quite conservative"
The results for stevia were on male rats fed high doses for 22 months. The implications of this for a human taking tiny doses (the stuff is VERY sweet) is...less then enough to keep me up at night.

There is more of the licorice and stevia (which I don't consider to be beneficial herbs).

The PDR for supplements disagres and lists the benefits for licorice here:
http://www.pdrhealth...gs/101700.shtml

... The Green Pharmacy, James Duke states that lowered testosterone levels have been observed in men who eat a few grams of licorice daily. Since this is an extract, it is very possible it will have the same effect.

The PDR for supplements states:
"At recommended dosage levels, Licorice is unlikely to produce any side effects...
Typical Dosage Licorice Extract: 0.5 to 1 gram for sinus and throat inflammations; 1.5 to 3 grams for ulcers"

Greens plus contains:
Licorice root extract 116mg


Enough. I'm not wedded to the stuff--it is just that your ciriticisms like the pyritinol hysteria....are less then convincing.

[bacopacabana]

As the Chinese would say, licorice cools the loins. Not sure I want that.

Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes. 2002 Sep;110(6):257-61. Related Articles, Links
History of the endocrine effects of licorice.
Armanini D, Fiore C, Mattarello MJ, Bielenberg J, Palermo M.
Department of Medical and Surgical Sciences -Endocrinology University of Padua, Italy.

The history of licorice as an officinal plant dates back thousands of years, and licorice is still appreciated as a medicinal root. Many of its endocrine properties can be derived from observations of Authors of the ancient world, when hormones were not known. Inappropriate use of licorice can produce pseudoaldosteronism, by inactivating 11beta-hydroxysteroiod-dehydrogenase and by binding to mineralocorticoid receptors. Licorice possesses many other therapeutic properties as to potentiate the action of cortisol, to reduce testosterone synthesis, especially in women, to exert an estrogen-like activity and to reduce body fat mass. The chronological development of research on these effects is described.

PMID: 12373628

[viceroy]

From the Viceroy just pasing through here briefly I thought I'd share with you guys.

Back in the 70's I trained a few hundred body builders and I may know a thing or two about nutrition. I personally have experience with 3 types of algae and prefer the Klammath Lake Super Blue Green species Aphanizomenon flos-aqua as the most biologically evolved. However I don't discount the value of and do consume also the other 2. Mike Adams has a nice little e-book for you on the subject available at chlorellafactor .com

As much as I like the the AIM Barley Green product you will be blown away by the Canadian creation called Barley Gold which is Light Years ahead of the green products. I use every morning mixed in organic fruit juice and it is totally AWESOME. You can get it from Sandusky's in Alberta at 1-800-615-1376

or online at

www.barleygold.ca

And a note on glutamine while I'm here, it is the prime nutient required for burn recovery and used by top hospitals in burn trauma cases of severe 2nd and 3rd degree. Your body has an extracellular pool floating thoughout that requires constant input. You can read the reviews of the Best Glutamine book available at this link

http://www.medstuden....php/0895295881

You all have a WONDERFUL DAY NOW

Edited by caliban, 27 May 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[DukeNukem]

Humans weren't evolved to eat grasses (or grains, for that matter), so I do not eat them. By far the best super green food on the market is New Chapter's Berry Green, which has 20 organic fruits and veggies, and NO GRASS filler. This is the good stuff, folks. I even give it to my dog with his raw meat and raw veggies.

http://tinyurl.com/cz4b7

The single benefit of grasses comes from chlorophyll, which can remove certain toxic heavy metals from the body. IP-6, bioflavonoids, and other methods are better at this, though.

[Pablo M]

Jarrow Green Defense looks to be a better product than Greens+. Less licorice, no stevia, more Green Tea, Milk Thistle, Grape Seed and Bilberry. More chlorella. Inclusion of Rice bran. No soy. Less apple pectin. Etc. Where I am these 2 are about the same price. I'll be buying the Jarrow when I have the money.

Center for Scienc in the Public Interest if fairly clear about stevia. On this page, they are fairly clear about stevia, giving it a red X for safety, indicating "The additive is unsafe in the amounts consumed or is very poorly tested."

Humans weren't evolved to eat grasses (or grains, for that matter), so I do not eat them. By far the best super green food on the market is New Chapter's Berry Green, which has 20 organic fruits and veggies, and NO GRASS filler

But, I notice it does have Oats and Brown Rice. As you note, chlorophyll is a good detoxifier, and grasses are high in it. If I was a hungry caveman, some relatively sweet-tasting grasses would seem like a good snack. At least that's my opinion. I'd eat grass before okra.

[DukeNukem]

Yeah, I'd a little disappointed that Berry Greens has the oats and brown rice, but those two are low on the ingredients list. Also, both have benefits I rank ahead of grass. Oats are high in beta-glucans that reduce you blood sugar throughout the day. Brown rice is packed full of anti-oxiadants, though I also take Risotrene which is better for this purpose.

[Pablo M]

Yeah, I'd a little disappointed that Berry Greens has the oats and brown rice, but those two are low on the ingredients list. Also, both have benefits I rank ahead of grass. Oats are high in beta-glucans that reduce you blood sugar throughout the day. Brown rice is packed full of anti-oxiadants, though I also take Risotrene which is better for this purpose.

Have you read about mushrooms at all? They are high in beta-glucans; each mushroom's BG has slightly different effects that have strong synergy when combined, according to Paul Stamets. I read his book and was so utterly convinced about mushrooms (anti-cancer, antioxidant and whatnot) that I went out and bought Host Defense. Like you, I am very impressed with new Chapter's products. Their supercritical extracts are awesome.

Regarding the goji berries, I too eat them in berry form. Once in a while I like some fruit juice. As long as you drink it after a protein-rich meal I honestly don't think it will have that much of a detrimental effect. I am curious as to where you get your carbs from, Scott. I guess veggies and fruit.

I'm getting Essential Mix soon, so I'll be enjoying the benefits of antioxidant-rich rice bran.

[Chip]

I recently received an email newsletter from newstarget about spirulina. Mike Adams of that web site and news service takes 20 grams of it a day. I have yet to add it to my regimen but am seriously considering doing so. Here is their take on the subject: http://www.newstarge.../spirulina.html

Anybody have much experience with them? At first impression seems they may cater to sensationalism and might have financial rewards from the companies they suggest as sources but digging deeper I find their statements do have solid research and decent citation of such and they claim no monetary reward from any of their suggested sources.

[DukeNukem]

Dante,

Yeah, New Chapter is one of the best supplement makers, and I use about eight of their products, including four of their mushroom supplements. Their Green & White Tea supplement is the best of its type (white tea is superior to green tea). There are several type of beta-glucans, and oat is high in the particular one that reduces blood sugar during the day.

As far as carbs, each day I eat one bowl of oatmeal (with several added supplements, like ORAC+, a fruit powder, whey protein, RisoTrene, and cinnamon), an organic salad (field greens, spinach, non-green bell peppers, heirloom tomatoes, broccoli sprouts, and free range, natural turkey breast), an Odwalla bar as a snack, a soy-based meal (hotdogs or dip) with a slice of sprouted bread and veggie side, and I always have one meal at a restaurant. I generally get 50% cals from carbs each day, and the other 50% split between protein and fat.

I NEVER eat fried foods, dairy, red meat (except rare occasions a few times a year), non-whole grain bread or white rice, sweets or sweet processed foods (like donuts, cookies, etc.), sodas, fruit juice, fast food, anything with trans fats, anything with fructose added, or alcohol.

[Chip]

Dani Veracity of newstarget posted an article on chlorella and cancer almost a month ago. After reading the article I went and did a search at PubMed for chlorella and got some abstracts that seem to show experimental observations supporting the findings reported at newstarget, http://www.newstarget.com/008527.html

I think I'm ready to find some sources to add chlorella and spirulina to my regimen. Any suggestions as to sources?

[scottl]

Scott,

I told the person who runs a small But high quality supp company about white tea. So perhaps we'll have another choice for white tea at some point.

[catdaddy]

Anyone interested in chlorella supplementation should check out http://chlorella-europe.com/. Lots of info and decent prices here. I've ordered from them and their product seems high quality from what I can tell.

[stephen_b]

I did a quick price check for New Chapter Berry Green Powder (360 g), and was surprised:

iHerb: $62.97
Amazon: $53.97
Vitacost: $49.68

Stephen

[symond steve]

Hello:,
I have been using Barley Grass for almost a 3 weeks now. Barley Grass gives me more energy, especially when taken prior to a workout. I can't believe this product has made a huge difference in my life.

[Brian Augustyniak]

There have been days where I've taken 50, 60, 70 or even 100 gram of various greens and felt absolutely fabulous......Without question they are all valuable....I can definitley feel a difference when I don't take them....