26 replies to this topic

[userx8]

This is something that has been bothering me quite a bit recently. I would like to know of the ways in which I can reduce the appearance/emergence of facial lines/creases. For some reason, some of my skin seems to exhibit a "saggy" effect which can diminish somewhat if properly stretched.

These are some pics: http://imgur.com/a/CuUKG

I have considered retin-a but have noticed that for some it may worsen the appearance of lines (not too sure if that's temporary however, but some posts online have said that the worsening effect persists even after three months). There are some products that I do use however.

These are the products: http://imgur.com/a/ppx7r

I've been using the Cyclax vitamin E and cucumber once a week since the start of August and have been using the tea tree and witch hazel exfoliator once a week for about two months. I don't use the cleanser often and have use the face mask about three times in total. The mother of pearl exfoliator has been used twice on my face.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

[niner]

With your complexion, I'd skip the retinoic acid, or at least go very slowly with the lowest possible concentration, or use retinaldehyde. Are you using a daily sunscreen? If not, that would be something to look into. Sagging might benefit from something with copper peptides. Injected fillers are useful for deep lines, like nasolabial folds. Unfortunately, that becomes an expensive hobby, as they have to be re-done periodically.

[nowayout]

The photos show some mild nasolabial folds.

Retin-A will make no difference to them. They are mostly caused by subdermal fat loss. Retin-A does not address that.

They don't look bad at all but if they bother you they can be filled by hyaluronic-acid-based fillers (Restylane, Juvederm, etc.) that replace the volume taken up by the lost fat tissue. It is something you would have to repeat every 6 months to a year.

[userx8]

With your complexion, I'd skip the retinoic acid, or at least go very slowly with the lowest possible concentration, or use retinaldehyde. Are you using a daily sunscreen? If not, that would be something to look into. Sagging might benefit from something with copper peptides. Injected fillers are useful for deep lines, like nasolabial folds. Unfortunately, that becomes an expensive hobby, as they have to be re-done periodically.

Apologies, but how would copper peptides help? What I'm looking for is something to reduce the overall protrusion of them. I can stretch the skin around them for them to diminish, albeit there is one slight "dint" - the rest of the area can be smoothed out if the skin is stretched evenly (that's for my left side). For the right side, it isn't as protruding as the right side.

I don't use a daily sunscreen but don't go out much either (about twice per week). I do often sit next to a window with curtains drawn and a room light that's on.

The photos show some mild nasolabial folds.

Retin-A will make no difference to them. They are mostly caused by subdermal fat loss. Retin-A does not address that.

They don't look bad at all but if they bother you they can be filled by hyaluronic-acid-based fillers (Restylane, Juvederm, etc.) that replace the volume taken up by the lost fat tissue. It is something you would have to repeat every 6 months to a year.

Can that be caused by fat redistribution? They do bother me unfortunately. However, I'm wondering if there are ways to reduce them non-invasively (i.e. no injectable fillers or such).

Lastly, I would also like to know of the ways in which a potential worsening of them could be mitigated (aside from dietary changes, I did have a lot of sugar in my diet over the past three years but haven't had much this year when compared to previous years and have had quite little in the past few months since May) - ? Are there any supplements that may help, any skincare routines, ..., etc?

Thanks!

[Layberinthius]

I don't use a daily sunscreen but don't go out much either (about twice per week). I do often sit next to a window with curtains drawn and a room light that's on.

Lastly, I would also like to know of the ways in which a potential worsening of them could be mitigated (aside from dietary changes, I did have a lot of sugar in my diet over the past three years but haven't had much this year when compared to previous years and have had quite little in the past few months since May) - ? Are there any supplements that may help, any skincare routines, ..., etc?

Thanks!

I dont sit next to a window anymore, let me tell you why.

I'm male and I think that its too risky to be anywhere near a window after noticing that even though I was in a room with indirect light coming in, my skin still continued to become wrinkly, I believe its because UV and Infrared rays from the sun are still very potent even though they have reflected off the wall/roof of your room, and are just as potent as they are if you were in direct sunlight.

Since I noticed this I've kept far away from the sun and just used it as a Vitamin D source only, 15-20mins a day TOPS, I've also spent 15 years as a Night Owl with the specific intention of avoiding damaging sunlight, among other reasons.

I'm also considering wearing gloves while driving, our poor hands are out there in the baking sun for x many hours or minutes while driving without any sunblock, and nobody bats an eyelid? If you do this make sure they have good grip and manuverability, riding gloves for example.

Whats also largely unknown is that cloudy/rainy days still let through a large amount of UV rays, almost as much as is let through on a sunny day without cloud cover.

https://en.wikipedia...Harmful_effects

http://www.epa.gov/s...vradiation.html

Weather Conditions

Cloud cover reduces UV levels, but not completely. Depending on the thickness of the cloud cover, it is possible to burn on a cloudy day, even if it does not feel warm.
Reflection

Surfaces like snow, sand, pavement, and water reflect much of the UV radiation that reaches them. Because of this reflection, UV intensity can be deceptively high even in shaded areas.

I also know my lighting, I love getting a fluroescent light that is close to 6000 kelvin as possible and strongly prefer this over the intensity of LED or cool white or warm white. A 12v 50w Halogen light with a good UV filter is good aswell, but without the UV filter its actually worse than sunlight for your skin however it produces a nice (slightly red shifted) but approximating the white color of sunlight, but without the damaging nature of sunlight. But seeing the cost of electricity rise has made me reconsider running them.

So i'm using nothing but Fluro now.
https://en.wikipedia...violet_emission

Fluorescent lamps emit a small amount of ultraviolet (UV) light. A 1993 study in the US found that ultraviolet exposure from sitting under fluorescent lights for eight hours is equivalent to only one minute of sun exposure.

Also considering getting into Electrodeless Fluorescent lamps, which have a 70,000 (15 years)-100,000 hour lifespan because there is no electrode inside of the tube to go bad the only thing which ages is the phosphorous coating inside the tube. also known as induction flourescent. But they do have a high upfront cost, I saw one model from china available on eBay for $272, which could be selected between 40w to 300w models in steps.

However I have seen models which are $50 and come in a package similar to the standard CFL lights.

My personal preference is getting as close as possible to 5,500k, I find that it has the best balance between red and blue.

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3cc16d3f35

https://en.wikipedia...ctrodeless_lamp

Edited by Layberinthius, 23 September 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[lemonhead]

You need to wear sunscreen whenever the sun is up. The damage is cumulative and takes years to become visible. No sugar or other high glycemic-index foods. I find B-vitamins and exercise help.

As for topicals, a DMAE cream and a pentapeptide cream work pretty well; the Derma-e pentapeptide cream is a little thick. I mix it with the DMAE cream. I also use tretinoin, but I have the world's greasiest skin, so I don't have to worry about excessive drying.

[niner]

With your complexion, I'd skip the retinoic acid, or at least go very slowly with the lowest possible concentration, or use retinaldehyde. Are you using a daily sunscreen? If not, that would be something to look into. Sagging might benefit from something with copper peptides. Injected fillers are useful for deep lines, like nasolabial folds. Unfortunately, that becomes an expensive hobby, as they have to be re-done periodically.

Apologies, but how would copper peptides help? What I'm looking for is something to reduce the overall protrusion of them. I can stretch the skin around them for them to diminish, albeit there is one slight "dint" - the rest of the area can be smoothed out if the skin is stretched evenly (that's for my left side). For the right side, it isn't as protruding as the right side.

I don't use a daily sunscreen but don't go out much either (about twice per week). I do often sit next to a window with curtains drawn and a room light that's on.

I think the mechanism of action of copper peptides is improved collagen formation. If your skin is more firm overall from better underlying structure, it will sag less and puff out less, and should be less prone to deep wrinkles. I used to not use sunscreen, figuring that it was ok because I wasn't really in the sun very much. A daily sunscreen made a difference for me. The longer UV wavelengths known as UVA are particularly harmful. You can think of them as Aging Rays. Sadly, UVA goes through glass, so being behind a window doesn't help. I've heard that they are absorbed by the plastic layer in a car's windshield/windscreen, although not by the side windows. I don't know if that's universally true for all cars. Anyway, sunscreen is pretty important. It doesn't have to be super high SPF, but it should shield against UVA. You should snoop around our skin/hair forum, which has recently been renamed "Ageless Looks" (I was not a party to that...). There are a lot of good threads about skin care.

[userx8]

Could this be worth trying? http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

[userx8]

With your complexion, I'd skip the retinoic acid, or at least go very slowly with the lowest possible concentration, or use retinaldehyde. Are you using a daily sunscreen? If not, that would be something to look into. Sagging might benefit from something with copper peptides. Injected fillers are useful for deep lines, like nasolabial folds. Unfortunately, that becomes an expensive hobby, as they have to be re-done periodically.

Apologies, but how would copper peptides help? What I'm looking for is something to reduce the overall protrusion of them. I can stretch the skin around them for them to diminish, albeit there is one slight "dint" - the rest of the area can be smoothed out if the skin is stretched evenly (that's for my left side). For the right side, it isn't as protruding as the right side.

I don't use a daily sunscreen but don't go out much either (about twice per week). I do often sit next to a window with curtains drawn and a room light that's on.

I think the mechanism of action of copper peptides is improved collagen formation. If your skin is more firm overall from better underlying structure, it will sag less and puff out less, and should be less prone to deep wrinkles. I used to not use sunscreen, figuring that it was ok because I wasn't really in the sun very much. A daily sunscreen made a difference for me. The longer UV wavelengths known as UVA are particularly harmful. You can think of them as Aging Rays. Sadly, UVA goes through glass, so being behind a window doesn't help. I've heard that they are absorbed by the plastic layer in a car's windshield/windscreen, although not by the side windows. I don't know if that's universally true for all cars. Anyway, sunscreen is pretty important. It doesn't have to be super high SPF, but it should shield against UVA. You should snoop around our skin/hair forum, which has recently been renamed "Ageless Looks" (I was not a party to that...). There are a lot of good threads about skin care.

How do you acquire copper peptides? And I'm assuming that sunscreen will be quite an expensive regimen to a skincare routine. Are there alternatives? Homemade remedies for that problem? I will have a snoop around that forum, thanks!

[lemonhead]

I'm still struggling to find a sunscreen that I like, but I find there are a lot of choices available at reasonable prices, especially when compared to the cost of treating the damage after the fact. So I keep trying different ones.

If you want to try DIY preparations, SkinActives.com sells most of the popular ingredients (or analogs). It isn't easy, though, to make something effective and shelf stable, despite all the helpful instructions. I once experimented with coconut endosperm; it made a great cream that turned rotten in under a week. I'm thinking about storing all my products in syringes (cleaner dispensing and less contact with air) in the refrigerator.

[userx8]

I'm still struggling to find a sunscreen that I like, but I find there are a lot of choices available at reasonable prices, especially when compared to the cost of treating the damage after the fact. So I keep trying different ones.

If you want to try DIY preparations, SkinActives.com sells most of the popular ingredients (or analogs). It isn't easy, though, to make something effective and shelf stable, despite all the helpful instructions. I once experimented with coconut endosperm; it made a great cream that turned rotten in under a week. I'm thinking about storing all my products in syringes (cleaner dispensing and less contact with air) in the refrigerator.

Ah, you make a good point. I'll be sure to check out that website.
I appreciate all replies thus far sincerely! Thanks!

Anyway, I've heard somewhere that certain fillers don't need to be used as often as they're supposed to increase stability of the desired state of the skin over some period of time. I don't know if this is true however.

[nowayout]

I'm still struggling to find a sunscreen that I like, but I find there are a lot of choices available at reasonable prices, especially when compared to the cost of treating the damage after the fact. So I keep trying different ones.

If you want to try DIY preparations, SkinActives.com sells most of the popular ingredients (or analogs). It isn't easy, though, to make something effective and shelf stable, despite all the helpful instructions. I once experimented with coconut endosperm; it made a great cream that turned rotten in under a week. I'm thinking about storing all my products in syringes (cleaner dispensing and less contact with air) in the refrigerator.

Ah, you make a good point. I'll be sure to check out that website.
I appreciate all replies thus far sincerely! Thanks!

Anyway, I've heard somewhere that certain fillers don't need to be used as often as they're supposed to increase stability of the desired state of the skin over some period of time. I don't know if this is true however.

Hyaluronic acid fillers such as restylane or juvederm supposedly stimulate collagen synthesis. It is unknown whether it is the ingredient in the filler or perhaps just the mechanical stretching of the skin that causes this to happen; in the latter case other fillers should also work. There is a study somewhere you can try to google. The amount of collagen formation is not dramatic, though.

Edited by nowayout, 28 September 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[userx8]

Sorry, I bumped because I would like to know if there are ways to prevent this from getting worse, e.g. of what supplements might help preserve my overall skin. I sometimes take an omega 3 capsule which contains lecitin and vitamin A (I think). Aside from that, I take coq10 several times a week.

[lemonhead]

carnosine and biosil
you don't have to take as much biosil as the directions say
vitamin C from whole foods (e.g., lightly cooked broccoli, organic bell peppers)

[userx8]

I appreciate all the input from this thread, however I feel as if it has gotten worse. There seems to be other folds emerging too, I really don't know what to do to prevent this from getting worse (edit: just updated the image album and I don't know if it has gotten worse or not, I've still been applying the same products weekly).

Edited by userx8, 04 October 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[lemonhead]

If you can afford it (and get the Rx), try tretinoin. You must use an SPF 45+ at all times when treating with it. You will notice results after a month or so. It really does work.

I've just started using Cosmetic Skin Solutions vitamin C and ferulic acid serum, and I'm quite impressed. It does smell like hot dogs and is quite pricey, but a little goes a long way.

If you want immediate results, try a good DMAE cream; it should tingle when you put it on. Strivectin also gives immediate results, but is now very expensive; I used to use it when it was only around $40 / tube at GNC. I used the 'body' cream on my face with no problems.

Make sure you are drinking enough water and getting enough sleep (being well hydrated really helps the DMAE cream do its thing).

[userx8]

If you can afford it (and get the Rx), try tretinoin. You must use an SPF 45+ at all times when treating with it. You will notice results after a month or so. It really does work.

I've just started using Cosmetic Skin Solutions vitamin C and ferulic acid serum, and I'm quite impressed. It does smell like hot dogs and is quite pricey, but a little goes a long way.

If you want immediate results, try a good DMAE cream; it should tingle when you put it on. Strivectin also gives immediate results, but is now very expensive; I used to use it when it was only around $40 / tube at GNC. I used the 'body' cream on my face with no problems.

Make sure you are drinking enough water and getting enough sleep (being well hydrated really helps the DMAE cream do its thing).

I appreciate your advice!
So, if I use tertinoin for about two months, will the creases diminish? Or is tretinoin like botox? I mean, if I maintain it properly after using tretinoin, will the maintenance preserve the effects brought on by tretinoin?

The Strivectin seems a little expensive. How long would a single 5fl oz tube last?

I'll definitely be getting some DMAE cream. My concern is whether these can help diminish what has already happened/perhaps reverse some of the damage that has occurred. Despite using the products I've shown, my skin feels as if it has worsened from July (first images in the album) to now (most recent) :(

Edited by userx8, 04 October 2013 - 08:58 PM.

[nowayout]

Tretinoin won't help with nasiolabial folds if due to fat redistribution (which is most often the cause). It has no effect on subcutaneous fat as far as I know.

[lemonhead]

Improvements you get from tretinoin will last a while, then you'll notice the sagging return as your collagen production and cell turnover slow back down.

A 5oz tube of Strivectin will last at least 3 months if not more, if you just use it on your face.

[lemonhead]

I just want to add that the products I've recomended are ones I've tried that have actually helped to firm up my skin. I've tried lots of products over the last 15 years or so; most haven't done much. I can't comment on the products you are using since I have never tried them.

Best wishes and let us know what you decide and how it works out.

[nowayout]

I just want to add that the products I've recomended are ones I've tried that have actually helped to firm up my skin. I've tried lots of products over the last 15 years or so; most haven't done much. I can't comment on the products you are using since I have never tried them.

Best wishes and let us know what you decide and how it works out.

I've read mixed reviews of Strivectin. Could you say a bit more about what it did for you?

[lemonhead]

I used the old formula that was beige in color and had an herbal odor. I noticed an immediate firming effect, especially around my eyes. Also the parallel lines between the eyes I get sometimes from worrying also disappeared. I think it does something to the nerves and the hydration status of the skin. The effect is similar to a lot of DMAE products I've tried, but lasts a lot longer (DMAE creams seem to last around 6 hours or so, then you need to re-apply). Niacinamide products such as this one from Olay seem to do something similar, but with a much, much milder effect.

Strivectin also has a longer-term effects that increase the more you use it.

~~
I have to mention I've been using the vitamin C serumfor just a few days and I have to say that if I won the lottery I'd buy it by the gallon and have a massage therapist apply it all over me.

Edited by lemonhead, 05 October 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[nowayout]

I used the old formula that was beige in color and had an herbal odor.

I can't bear anything with an odor or perfume, so I guess that rules that one out for me.

[userx8]

I used the old formula that was beige in color and had an herbal odor. I noticed an immediate firming effect, especially around my eyes. Also the parallel lines between the eyes I get sometimes from worrying also disappeared. I think it does something to the nerves and the hydration status of the skin. The effect is similar to a lot of DMAE products I've tried, but lasts a lot longer (DMAE creams seem to last around 6 hours or so, then you need to re-apply). Niacinamide products such as this one from Olay seem to do something similar, but with a much, much milder effect.

Strivectin also has a longer-term effects that increase the more you use it.

~~
I have to mention I've been using the vitamin C serumfor just a few days and I have to say that if I won the lottery I'd buy it by the gallon and have a massage therapist apply it all over me.

Is it still possible to buy some with the old formula? Or is the new formula more effective?

[lemonhead]

The new formula is white and I think unscented, but I haven't tried it. The old scent wasn't bad, beats the vitamin c serum hot dog odor. I wonder if I did get the vitamin c serum slathered all over me if the neighborhood dogs would be after me?

~~

I haven't tried the new formula so I can't vouch for its effectiveness. I doubt they still sell the old formula.

Edited by lemonhead, 05 October 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Strangelove]

I suspect my nasolabial folds are getting worse from pressing my face on my pillow as I am sleeping... I am wondering if any of these "wrinkle free" pillows on Amazon can make a difference?

[JBForrester]

It looks like you have a lot of inflammation, which is the worst thing you can have if you want clear, youthful skin. And yikes! Those facial products look really harsh!!! Especially the tea tree exfoliator! Please look them up on EMG's Skin Deep and find out their ratings. If they are higher than 3, I'd recommend throwing them away. You can find the best and low rated products for your specific needs on the site as well. That's how I tamed my skin. You might do yourself a favor and cut out any drug-store bought products. IMO stay away from the retinoids until your skin has calmed down. Especially if you don't already go to a dermatologist who can tell you the proper way to use them. I've nearly healed my sensitive skin by using spring water to wash my face (I buy the 3 gallon spouted-jugs), using a creamy cleanser, putting my moisturizer on my wet/damp skin, and letting it air dry. Are you using any hair growth products by chance? Like rogaine? I had a horrible allergic reaction to that. What is your diet like? Watch out for DMAE also, the way it works is by swelling the cells thus temporarily thickening the skin. My advice is to give your skin a break and don't over-kill with so many potentially harsh or controlled-damage products. You need to tame the inflammation first or at least find out what the culprit is through a process of elimination. If your skin reacts with redness to a product, throw it out.

http://www.reuters.c...L85568520070418

http://www.smartskin...mae_safety.html

http://www.ewg.org/skindeep/