7 replies to this topic

[nameless]

Just wondering what brands of IP6 people here would recommend, or if there is any real difference between any of them? I previously tried Jarrow's IP6 years ago, but it didn't agree with me ... but it was in powder form, which is probably why. I also tried Enzymatic Therapy's Cell Forte with no issues.

Based on pricing, it more or goes like Swansons - Jarrow - Enzymatic. But Swanson's is the dirt cheap one (basicaly less than half the cost of others), while the others are more or less in the same ballbark pricewise. I'm a little wary though when Swanson doesn't list a source.

And what dose/timetable do most people use? I figure 400-500mg daily would be about right, but is it best to take every day? And around how long before it lowers ferritin levels?

I probably can't get my ferritin checked again for a while (guessing at least 6 months), so prefer not to accidentally cause anemia.

[theconomist]

I take 1 pill of http://www.iherb.com...90-Tablets/1329 which contains 800 mg of IP6 5 times a week.
I also donate blood a few times a year and try to watch my ferritin levels so it doesn't get too low.
It's only 12$ and lasts me more than 3 months so cost wise it's not the supplement I'm most worried about.

[Dorian Grey]

When I developed a fatty liver due to some youthful lifestyle issues I pursued well into middle age, I tried de-ironing my body more out of desperation than belief it might actually fix what was ailing me. I had little to lose and was resistant to giving up the simple pleasures I loved. I was pretty aggressive and was donating blood and taking IP6 at the same time. My experience was generally good, though I did overshoot my goals and wound up a bit anemic for a month or so, but this resolved quite rapidly once I slacked off a bit. My iron wasn't even clinically high at the start of all this (ferritin around 160), but the upper limits for "normal" ferritin are truly set outrageously high, simply because elevated iron is so common in adult males. Youthful ferritin levels are well documented to average around 25 in menstruating females all the way up to menopause, with young men averaging slightly higher until they reach middle age, when iron starts climbing to stratospheric levels as we approach senior years (and diseases of all kinds start to pop-up!)

I chose Jarrow's IP6 simply because I had previous good experience with the brand, and at less than a dime a cap (500mg) I really didn't see a need to dig into the bargain bin. I've seen the prices of the IP6-Gold the cancer patients are flocking to and this looks like a rip-off to me. Inositol is as cheap as IP6 and the ratios aren't that hard to figure out and mix yourself. I also take Lecithin and eat eggs which are good sources of inositol so I didn't bother adding supplementary inositol, but stuck with simple IP6.

I've seen some thumping big doses of IP6 written about in the cancer forums (3 to 4 grams/day), but I never took more than 500mg/twice a day. The trick with IP6 is to take it on a very empty stomach with a full (8 oz) glass of water. For me this meant first thing in the morning and last thing before bed. When taken properly, a little IP6 goes a long way, but any food at all in your tum will neutralize much of the chelating effect. Fortunately, I found IP6 to be very easy on my empty stomach, though I always diluted it well with water. If you've had problems, you may have taken it with too little to drink.

I had almost no side effects early on when my iron was elevated, but noticed some dental sensitivities (to cold) after several months and started reducing my dosage (to 500mg/day) and cycling off it a couple days a week and this rapidly resolved. As I got my ferritin down around 20 (my initial target) and actually overshot this a bit (into the teens), I also noticed some afternoon fatigue and a soreness on the side of my tongue that would come and go as I cycled IP6. I did a bit of searching and found these are common symptoms with anemia and slacked off a bit with both the blood donation and IP6 and this too resolved very quickly.

Looking back, I was probably a bit too aggressive with my de-ironing... Chelation isn't the sort of thing you want to try and do fast. Slow and steady iron removal will give good results with less side effects and I'm a big believer in avoiding megadoses of any supplements, especially those that affect mineral balances.

I also supplemented LOW DOSE mag-citrate (100mg with lunch) and zinc (10mg also with lunch) during my aggressive chelation to insure these important min's didn't get low. I wasn't concerned with copper and calcium, as most folks are high in copper, and calcium is very abundant in my diet. I did add some high copper foods (seafood, chocolate, coffee & olives) on days I cycled off IP6 just to give copper a chance to catch up if by chance it was getting low.

The result? Well, the body will always tap stored iron in blood ferritin preferentially before it starts mining iron out of organs and tissue, so not much to report during the de-ironing process except the mild anemia I experienced donating blood and chelating at the same time. In the months that followed after I reached my target of ferritin 20, things started improving very nicely! Fatty liver? Gone! Documented by ultrasound. Fasting hypoglycemia? Gone! I could skip breakfast and work well past lunch without feeling like I was going to keel over. This would have been impossible for me just a couple years back.

Now that I'm thoroughly de-ironed, I've let my ferritin rise to 50, which is the sweet spot from what I've read. I feel 10 years younger, and yes, I'm still being a bit naughty with my lifestyle, but then I'm young again... Why not!

Edited by synesthesia, 22 September 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[nameless]

My ferritin was over 200, if you remember my blood test post. I'd be happy if I can get it to 75-100, ideally without depleting other minerals. To complicate matters, I think I'm a bit low in zinc to start with.

I can get the Enzymatic brand for the same price as Jarrow (have some coupons). They are around the same price at Swanson's too (like $2 difference). I think the only difference between them is that Enzymatic has a bit extra Inositol. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing. The Swanson house brand is 240 caps for like $8.50, which seems almost too cheap to me. Although at the same time it wouldn't surprise me if they all got it from the same exact place. The Source Naturals one listed above is also a decent price, but not sure if I want to start off at 800mg/daily... I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I'd probably go with 400-500mg 5x weekly, and see how that works out. Hopefully it wouldn't make me anemic in under 6 months or lower my zinc even further.

[Dorian Grey]

It's interesting many labs put the upper limit for ferritin at 150-200 for females, but 300 (& I've even seen 400) for males. Makes me wonder what's so dangerous about ferritin of 200 for females that wouldn't apply to males? Does a bit of testosterone really protect us? Does estrogen make iron more dangerous to females?

The friendly folks at http://www.healtheiron.com/ have a lot of information for you to ponder as you chelate your way to better health. Here's their page on the benefits of iron reduction therapy: http://www.healtheir...duction-therapy

Zinc really isn't that hard to boost with supplements. The problem is taking too much zinc can push copper through the floor and supplementing copper is simply too dangerous to consider (in my humble opinion!) Most zinc supplements come in 50mg size tabs and I invested in a pill cutter to reduce my dose to 25mg. I've even found some 10mg pills online that I am taking now.

It's interesting, one of the signs of zinc deficiency is loss of sense of smell and to a lesser extent taste. I've noticed when I take zinc I start smelling things much better that same day and this is how I evaluate my zinc status. As long as I can smell things rather well, I know my zinc is doing OK, and when I need to start putting hot sauce on everything in order to give it flavor, this is a sign I need more zinc. Unscientific, but it really does work.

Magnesium is the only other mineral I worry about in regards to IP6 chelation. Too much mag citrate can give loose bowels, but I've found 100mg with lunch causes me no problems while providing some insurance I'm not short changing my little bodkin of mag. Again, I've had to use my trusty pill cutter to split 200mg tabs of mag citrate down to size. Taking too much mag or zinc (even hours away from your IP6) may compromise iron chelation, but these two min's are something I simply don't want to get low on.

I second your idea about starting with lower doses (for everything!). The beauty of IP6 is that it mops up the labile iron pool of unbound serum iron remarkably well, starting from day 1. Iron that is well stored/bound in ferritin/hemosiderin proteins isn't too dangerous. The problem is when large amounts of iron stored in these proteins accumulate, there tends to be some leakage of free iron into the labile iron pool which is what causes hydroxyl radicals (the most dangerous kind!). Clean the pool of this iron (which IP6 does almost instantly) and you've got all the time you need to lower excess stored iron slowly and safely.

Regarding the brand of IP6, I tend to think they are all branded from the same supplier. Just make sure your getting real "IP6" (inositol hexaphosphate) and not myo-insitol or something else like this. Don't know what "Enzymatic brand" is... Were you referring to zinc? Never heard of enzymatic IP6.

More on labile iron here: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14637247

Labile iron pool: the main determinant of cellular response to oxidative stress

"The trace amounts of "free" iron can catalyse production of a highly toxic hydroxyl radical via Fenton/Haber-Weiss reaction cycle. The critical factor appears to be the availability and abundance of cellular labile iron pool (LIP) that constitutes a crossroad of metabolic pathways of iron-containing compounds and is midway between the cellular need of iron, its uptake and storage. To avoid an excess of harmful "free" iron, the LIP is kept at the lowest sufficient level by transcriptional and posttranscriptional control of the expression of principal proteins involved in iron homeostasis"

Edited by synesthesia, 23 September 2013 - 04:37 AM.

[nameless]

Enzymatic's IP6 --
http://www.enzymatic...6-Inositol.aspx


It's not really as expensive as that retail price either. I think Swanson's has that size at around $11.


Based on my last blood test, I should be fine with magnesium (at least before I try IP6) as my RBC was decent. But my Zinc RBC was near the bottom of the range, and based on an older test I had, would be considered deficient (assuming they use the same scale), when compared to what most people's zinc levels are.

In the past I used the zinc taste test as a way to guage status too (don't have any more left). It's supposed to taste horrible if you have normal zinc status, and I recall when I first tried it, it tasted like water -- not a good sign. After I supplemented a while, it began to taste worse and worse.

And yeah, the copper thing is what annoys me about supplementing zinc. I never know if I should add a bit of copper when supplementing zinc, or even if supplemental copper could be harmful if simply taking it to balance out zinc intake. I suspect I am low due to the ace inhibitor I take, but getting my doc to change meds on me is unlikely. I'm going to try to get a zinc rbc retest using Sunrise instead of Labcorp, as I think they are the ones that use a proper scale.

[Dorian Grey]

I see... Enzymatic Therapy is the supplier/brand! 800mg is a big dose though. I wouldn't take more than one of these per day.

Regarding zinc pushing copper down too low; I've read zinc at 50mg/day is the point at which copper levels start to be seriously affected over time. As IP6 also chelates copper, this may effect the equation. I wouldn't touch copper supplements with a ten foot pole... Read too many articles about the dangers of raw/elemental copper to ever let it touch my lips. Lots of foods rich in protein bound (safe) copper if you look for them and eat them on days you cycle off the IP6. I really think low dose zinc 10-25mg/day is the safest compromise. Get thee a pill cutter!

Blood pressure meds are tricky... If you're on something that's working for you without side effects, I wouldn't mess with it.

With ferritin of 200+, I wouldn't worry about anemia in the first 6 months either... When blood ferritin is this high, your liver probably has a years supply of stored iron in it in addition to what's in your blood. I pushed myself into mild anemia donating blood and chelating with IP6 at the same time, but when this occurred, I snapped out of it very quickly when I eased off on my iron reduction therapy. A couple weeks of a strong desire to nap in the afternoons after work was all it amounted to, and it was at this point my health really began to turn around. Once your body starts having trouble coming up with the iron it needs to make red blood cells, your de-ironing is done!

Edited by synesthesia, 23 September 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[nameless]

The serving is 2x daily, so it's 400mg/capsule. Probably even safer than the standard 500mg caps. It also has some extra inositol, which is probably a good thing as far as IP6 goes.

And no need for a pill cutter with zinc really. There are a number of low dose options. Zinc piccolinate can be found at 20-22mg/tablet easy enough. Optizinc can be found at 15mg/tablet. And Zinc citrate is usually around 30mg/capsule. The problem I have is, at least based on the zinc taste test, is that low dose (20-30mg) doesn't really raise my levels enough. When I was taking 30mg/daily, my zinc serum still came back on the low side too. A while ago I did a shortterm experiment with zinc, and needed to take 50-60mg daily for a while, just to pass the zinc taste test. Longterm at that dose isn't probably safe due to copper concerns.

So... not sure what the right answer is. I think with copper, it depends on how it is bound, whether it may be dangerous or not. I am not sure if any specific chelate is safer than another -- copper sebacate, copper glycinate, copper gluconate (which isn't absorbed)... not sure if any are safe.

And the ace inhibitor I take isn't really for blood pressure, as if anything, mine sometimes gets too low. It's for another heart condition. But I believe just about all ace inhibitors, in theory, could interfere with zinc in some way. I can ask my cardiologist about this, but it'll be another 6 months before I see her. Doctors tend to be less concerned about nutritional deficiences than disease stuff, so not sure if she'll even know the answer.