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Abortion, individual rights, and the future


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#31 Clifford Greenblatt

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 12:34 AM

I fully belive it is the intent of the third skin cell to the right on my left pinky toe to develop into a full clone of myself.  It has trouble doing it on it's own, I'll just have to help it along at some point with advancing technology :))

Your skin cells have all the genetic data for developing a complete person but they are subject to a biological administration that has assigned them a particular task. The assigned task of the fertilised egg is to develop into a mature person. This is not the assigned task of the skin cell.

Edited by Clifford Greenblatt, 08 June 2005 - 01:04 AM.


#32 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 02:21 AM

Cosmos

I don't ask this rhetorically, is a fetus not sentient before birth?


Sentience is not the issue Cosmos. After all, cows are sentient. :) ---- and you know what we do to them. [":)]

There are certainly rights that we can (and do) afford to sentient creatures, such as humane treatment. However, sentience is of a lower class of consciousness than that of *personhood* which, as I said earlier, requires self awareness.

Clifford

The assigned task of the fertilised egg is to develop into a mature person.


Who or what was the assigner of this task?

Answer the question please, Clifford.
[glasses]

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 02:44 AM

Cosmos

I don't ask this rhetorically, is a fetus not sentient before birth?


Sentience is not the issue Cosmos. After all, cows are sentient. :) ---- and you know what we do to them. [":)]

There are certainly rights that we can (and do) afford to sentient creatures, such as humane treatment. However, sentience is of a lower class of consciousness than that of *personhood* which, as I said earlier, requires self awareness.


Alright, thanks for the clarification. Could you expand on personhood, define it more precisely perhaps?

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#34

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 03:08 AM

Clifford:

Does the law of the land give the cryonically preserved brain of a mature human these same rights?


No, and how is that appeal to authority relevant? When I referred to a brain in a non-human vessel, I meant an active brain supporting a mind. The non-human vessel can be anything that allows the mind to recieve information and interact with the world around it. Whereas a preserved brain is inactive, it doesn't require full human rights beyond protection against destruction in opposition to the past confirmed will of the patient.

Intent is demonstrated by action. The embryo is fully equipped with all the information and all the means to develop to a mature human and is actively pursuing that goal. Here is a project for you. You have a laboratory with all the chemicals needed to compose a mature human. You have eleven years to use all the intelligence in your mind to use those chemicals to construct a healthy ten year old child. You have to manipulate those chemicals yourself. You are not allowed to let the let any natural genetic processes do the work for you. How far do you think you would get?


You restrict me from using natural genetic processes because you believe they carry intent, correct? As I and others have argued, by definition, intent arises from a mind (or some equivalent). Whether the embryos exist in simulation or in reality as we percieve it, whether they are developed tomorrow or centuries from now, as long as their information is retained in some form they're not lost.

Your response to Laz on intent:

I do not want to get any deeper into the definitions of such words as ‘will’ and ‘intention’ because such an exercise has some very real limitations in helping to understanding the value of a person.


Then why claim embryos have intent if you're unwilling to further explore the definition of 'intent'. If "intent is demonstrated by action" as you claim, then does a ball I release from my hand intend to drop to the ground?

Again, you are talking about past intent. People change their minds. The cryonic patient had a past intent to live but does so no longer.


People who had past intent right up to their cryonic suspension, cannot change their minds in suspension. If they're ever reanimated, they may change their minds afterwards, but that's a decision made after all obligations have been fulfilled by the cryonics company.

Again, is the information contained in the brain of a cryonic patient any basis for legal rights according to the law of the land?


Again no, according to the law of the land as it stands today. I would contend that individuals have a right to preserve their pattern, even if that pattern in it's most recent form exists as static stored information. Others aren't obligated to protect this information without prior agreement, but they don't necessarily have the right to destroy such information.

A similar principle applies to the cryonic patient. In place of the high cost of maintaining a cryonic patient, ten embryos could be permitted to live and develop to maturity and could be well educated. Very much unlike your computer embryonic construction idea and very much ulike the technology to animate a cryonic patient, this requires no rocket science. At sufficient maturity, they will contain much more information than the cryonic patient. Also, the information they contain will be much more up to date.


They could potentially collectively contain more information, and more recent information, so therefore they are of greater value than a cryonics patient with existing preserved information (supposing minimal damage)? Why have you included economics as a consideration?

Who is to say what is a design and what is not?
If the plan by which a tree operates is not a design but is simply a consequence of the laws of nature then so is the process that you call your "will" along with all things that proceed from it.


So then do you contend that free will does not exist?

Edited by cosmos, 08 June 2005 - 06:05 AM.


#35 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 05:34 AM

Alright, thanks for the clarification. Could you expand on personhood, define it more precisely perhaps?


I would say that my minimum criteria for personhood would be....well, it would be Koko. :)

The Case for the Personhood of Gorillas

As odd as it may sound, from my perspective Koko qualifies as a *person*, and eight month old fetus does not.

Does this individual have a claim to basic moral rights? It is hard to imagine any reasonable argument that would deny her these rights based on the description above. She is self-aware, intelligent, emotional, communicative, has memories and purposes of her own, and is certainly able to suffer deeply.



#36 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 05:45 AM

This snippet here I think gives a better idea of what I mean by self awareness.

She demonstrates a clear self-awareness by engaging in self-directed behaviors in front of a mirror, such as making faces or examining her teeth, and by her appropriate use of self-descriptive language. She lies to avoid the consequences of her own misbehavior, and anticipates others' responses to her actions. She engages in imaginary play, both alone and with others. She has produced paintings and drawings which are representational. She remembers and can talk about past events in her life. She understands and has used appropriately time-related words like before, after, later, and yesterday.



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Posted 08 June 2005 - 05:54 AM

Don, I admit I thought self-awareness and sentience were one and the same.

Here are some relevant definitions.

Wikipedia:
- Sentience is the capacity for basic consciousness — the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness.
- Self-awareness is the ability to perceive one's own existence, including one's own traits, feelings and behaviours.
- (i)Sapience is the ability of an organism or entity to act with intelligence.
(ii)Sapience is the ability to think about sensations, feelings and ideas.
- Apperception is the cognitive process by which a newly experienced sensation is related to past experiences to form an understood situation.

Edited by cosmos, 08 June 2005 - 06:12 AM.


#38 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 06:01 AM

Here is a fairly cogent argument from the "pro life" side of the debate -- courtesy of The Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity. :))

It should also be noted that the "pro life" side is absolutely dominant in terms of its internet presence. Many of their web sites also go to great lengths to "cloak" their underlying position -- hey, that's not intellectually dishonest. Its just very important that you start out seeing things the "right way". [tung]

Abortion, Bioethics and Personhood: A Philosophical Reflection

by Francis J. Beckwith
  
Francis J. Beckwith, PhD is associate professor of philosophy, culture, and law at Trinity International University in Bannockburn, IL.
 
Abortion is the issue that first brought evangelical Christians and other cultural conservatives into the arena of bioethics. Although today bioethics is dominated by other issues that are perceived as more pressing, the answer to the philosophical question lurking behind abortion--Who and what are we?--turns out to be the key that unlocks the ethical quandaries posed by these other issues. After all, if human persons ought not to be either subjects of research or killed without justification, and if the fetus from conception is a human person,1 then embryo experimentation, abortion, and cloning2 are prima facie morally wrong.

However, some bioethicists have attempted to deal with the issue of human personhood by either sidestepping it or making a distinction between human beings and human persons, putting the fetus in the former category but not the latter. In this paper I will address both attempts.

Sidestepping the Issue: The Failure of Neutrality
Some bioethicists seek to sidestep the question of personhood by suggesting a neutral posture toward it. They maintain that bioethical decisions can be made apart from answering this question. Take, for example, the 1994 recommendations of the National Institutes of Health Embryo Research Panel, a body consisting of bioethicists across many disciplines including philosophy, theology, law, and medicine. Formed in 1993, this panel was commissioned to make recommendations about what types of research on the embryo prior to implantation and outside the women's uterus (ex utero) are appropriate or inappropriate for federal funding. The main ethical concern for the panel was the moral permissibility of creating human embryos for the sole purpose of experimenting on them. After hearing thousands of hours of testimony before experts on all sides of the debate, the panel concluded in its final report that some research was acceptable for federal support, some warranted further review, and some was unacceptable. But what is remarkable is how the panel attempted to sidestep the issue of personhood, apparently believing that it was possible to make policy without addressing it. In the first 300 words of the report's executive summary, the panel writes that "it conducted its deliberations in terms that were independent of a particular religious or philosophical perspective."3 Yet, the panel supported federal funding of research on the preimplanted embryo on the basis that "it does not have the same moral status as infants and children" because it lacks "developmental individuation . . ., the lack of even the possibility of sentience and most other qualities considered relevant to the moral status of persons, and the very high rate of natural mortality at this stage."4 Clearly, despite its earlier disclaimer that it would propose recommendations "independent" of any perspective, the panel affirmed (and argued for) a policy that is, by its own admission, dependent on a philosophical perspective, for it was employed by the panel to distinguish between those beings who are and who are not members of the moral community of persons. This is not a neutral perspective.

Courts have been no more successful at sidestepping the question of personhood, even though they claim (and perhaps even believe) they have successfully accomplished it. Consider, for example, Justice Harry Blackmun's often-quoted comments from Roe v. Wade: "We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate."5

Hence, the state should remain "neutral" and not take one theory of life and force those who do not agree with that theory to subscribe to it, which is the reason why Blackmun writes in Roe, "In view of all this, we do not agree that, by adopting one theory of life, Texas may override the rights of the pregnant woman that are at stake."6 Thus for the pro-life advocate to propose that non-pro-life women should be forbidden from having abortions, on the basis that individual human personhood begins at conception or at least sometime before birth, is, according to the Court, a violation of the rights of non-pro-life women.

But the problem with this reasoning is that it simply cannot deliver on it what it promises. For to claim, as Justices Blackmun does, that the Court should be "neutral" and not propose one theory of life over another, and that the decision to abort should be left exclusively to the discretion of each pregnant woman, is to propose a theory of life. For such a proposal has all the earmarks of a theory of life that legally segregates fetuses from full-fledged membership in the human community, since it in practice excludes fetuses from constitutional protection. Although verbally the Court denied taking sides, part of the theoretical grounding of its legal opinion, whether it admits to it or not, is that the fetus is not a human person worthy of protection in this society.

Thus, the Court actually did take sides on when life begins. It concluded that the fetus is not a human person, for the procedure permitted in Roe, abortion, is something that the Court itself admits it would not have ruled a fundamental right if it were shown to the satisfaction of the Court that the fetus is a human person: "If the suggestion of personhood [of the unborn] is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life is then guaranteed specifically by the [Fourteenth Amendment]."7

But this conditional concession cuts both ways. For if, as Blackmun admits, the right to abortion is contingent upon the status of the fetus, then the allegedly disputed fact about life's beginning means that the right to abortion is disputed as well. For a conclusion's support--in this case, "abortion is a fundamental right"-- is only as good as the truth of its most important premise--in this case, "the fetus is not a human person." So, the Court's admission that abortion-rights is based on a widely disputed fact, far from establishing a right to abortion, entails that it, not only does not know when life begins, but it does not know when, if ever, the right to abortion begins.8

Not All Human Beings Are Persons?
From a strictly scientific point of view, there is no doubt that individual human life begins at conception and does not end until natural death. At the moment of conception, when sperm and ovum cease to exist as individual entities, a new being with its own genetic code comes into existence. All that is need for its development is food, water, air, and an environment conducive to its survival.9

These facts typically are not denied by those who believe that abortion should be justified at some point during pregnancy.10 What is denied, however, is that the unborn is a human person. And what is affirmed by these advocates is that the unborn does not become a human person until some decisive moment after conception.

Some argue that personhood does not arrive until brain waves are detected (40 to 43 days).11 Others, such as Mary Anne Warren,12 define a person as a being who can engage in cognitive acts such as sophisticated communication, consciousness, solving complex problems, self-motivated activity and having a self-concept. This would put the arrival of personhood at some time after birth. Still others, such as L. W. Sumner, 13 hold a more moderate position and argue that human personhood does not arrive until the fetus is sentient, the ability to feel and sense as a conscious being. This, according to Sumner, occurs possibly as early as the middle weeks of the second trimester of pregnancy and definitely by the end of that trimester.

Although these criteria differ from each other in important ways, they all have one thing in common: each maintains that if and only if an entity functions in a certain way are we warranted in calling that entity a person. Defenders of these criteria argue that once a human being, whether born or unborn, acquires a certain function or functions--whether it is brain waves, rationality, sentience, etc.-- it is then and only then that a person actually exists. Those who defend these personhood criteria typically make a distinction between "being a human" and "being a person." They argue that although fetuses are members of the species homo sapiens, and in that sense are human, they are not truly persons until they fulfill a particular set of personhood criteria.

Problems with Personhood Criterial
Although functional definitions of personhood may tell us some conditions that are sufficient to say that a being is a person, they are not adequate in revealing to us all the conditions that are sufficient for a particular being to be called a person. For example, when a human being is asleep, unconscious, and temporarily comatose, she is not functioning as a person as defined by some personhood criteria. Nevertheless, most people would reject the notion that a human being is not a person while in any of these states. In other words, while personhood criteria, such as the ones presented by Warren can tell us that a being is a person, these criteria are not adequate to declare a being a non-person: The exercise of rational thought tells us that a being is a person; when that person is sleeping, and thus is not exercising rational thought, that lack of exercise of the thought function does not make her a non-person at that time. Consequently, it seems more consistent with our moral intuitions to say that personhood is not something that arises when certain functions are in place, but rather is something that grounds these functions, whether or not they are ever actualized in the life of a human being. Thus, defining personhood strictly in terms of function is inadequate.

In response, the abortion advocate, not wanting to abandon his personhood criteria, may argue that the analogy between sleeping/unconscious/comatose persons and fetuses breaks down because the former at one time in their existence functioned as persons and will probably do so in the future, while the latter did not. But this point seems to ignore the significant flaw in defining personhood strictly in terms of function. For to claim that a human being can be functional, become non-functional, and then return to a state of function is to assume that there is some underlying personal unity to this individual. Thus, it is intelligible for us to say that the person who has returned to functional capacity is the same person who was functional prior to being in a non-functional state and yet continued to exist while not functioning. If not, then we would have to make the absurd claim that a new "person" has popped into existence and that the original "person" ceased to exist upon the cessation of his personhood functions. If, however, we were to identify both the first person and the second person with the human organism from which these personal functions have arisen, then the human person is the human organism as long as the human organism exists.

Consider the following example. Suppose your Uncle Jed is in a terrible car accident that results in him being in a coma from which he may or may not wake. Imagine that he remains in this state for roughly two years and then awakens. He seems to be the same Uncle Jed that you knew before he went into the coma, even though he's lost some weight, hair, and memories. Was he a person during the coma? Could the physicians have killed Uncle Jed's body during that time because it was not functioning as a person? If one holds to the personhood criteria we reviewed above, it is difficult to see why it would be wrong to kill Uncle Jed while he is in the coma. Yet, it would be morally wrong to kill Uncle Jed while in this state.

Suppose you were to conclude that Uncle Jed's life is valuable while in the coma because at one time prior to the coma he functioned as a person and probably will do so in the future after coming out of the coma. But this would be a mistake. For we can change the story a bit and say that when Uncle Jed awakens from the coma he loses virtually all his memories and knowledge including his ability to speak a language, engage in rational thought, and have a self-concept. It turns out that while in the coma he was in the exact same position as the standard fetus, for he had the same capacities as the fetus. He would still literally be the same person he was before the coma but he would be more like he was before he had a "past." He would have the natural inherent capacity to speak a language, engage in rational thought, and have a self-concept, but he would have to develop and learn them all over again in order for these capacities to result, as they did before, in actual abilities.

Consider one more illustration. Imagine that there are two newborn twins, Larry and Ervin. Larry attains self-consciousness and then lapses into a coma for eight years, after which he will come out. Ervin is born in a coma, never attaining self-consciousness, and will come out of it the same moment as Larry. The only difference between Larry and Ervin is one of function--the former attained self-consciousness whereas the latter did not. Suppose one argues that it is permissible to kill Ervin but not Larry the day before they are set to come out of the coma. But this seems absurd. The difference between Larry and Ervin is functional only, not a difference in essence or nature, and thus not morally relevant, precisely the same kind of difference between the fetus and the five-year old. So, the unborn are not potential persons, but human persons with great potential.14

Consequently, what is crucial morally is the being of a person, not his or her functioning. A human person does not come into existence when human function arises, but rather, a human person is an entity who has the natural inherent capacity to give rise to human functions, whether or not those functions are ever attained. And since the unborn human being has this natural inherent capacity from the moment it comes into existence, she is a person as long as she exists. As theologian John Jefferson Davis writes, "Our ability to have conscious experiences and recollections arises out of our personhood; the basic metaphysical reality of personhood precedes the unfolding of the conscious abilities inherent in it.15

Philosopher J. P. Moreland clarifies this notion when he points out that "it is because an entity has an essence and falls within a natural kind that it can possess a unity of dispositions, capacities, parts and properties at a given time and can maintain identity through change." Moreover, "it is the natural kind that determines what kinds of activities are appropriate and natural for that entity."16 Moreland goes on to write:

[A]n organism . . . has second-order capacities to have first-order capacities that may or may not obtain (through some sort of lack). These second-order capacities are grounded in the nature of the organism. For example, a child may not have the first-order capacity to speak English due to a lack of education. But because the child has humanness it has the capacity to develop the capacity to speak English. The very idea of a defect presupposes these second-order capacities.

Now the natural kind "human being" or "human person" (I do not distinguish between these) is not to be understood as a mere biological concept. It is a metaphysical concept that grounds both biological functions and moral intuitions. . . .

In sum, if we ask why [certain functions are] . . . both possible and morally important, the answer will be that such [functions are] . . . grounded in the kind of entity, a human person in this case, that typically can have [those functions].17

What does Moreland mean by this? First, each kind of living organism, or substance, has a nature or essence that makes certain activities and functions possible. "A substance's inner natureis its ordered structural unity of ultimate capacities. A substance cannot change in its ultimate capacities; that is, it cannot lose its ultimate nature and continue to exist."18 For example, a German Shepherd dog, because it has a particular nature, has the ultimate capacity to develop the ability to bark. It may die as a puppy and never develop that ability. Regardless, it is still a German Shepherd dog as long as it exists, because it possesses a particular nature, even if it never acquires certain functions that by nature it has the capacity to develop. In contrast, a frog is not said to lack something if it cannot bark, for it is by nature not the sort of being that can have the ability to bark. A dog that lacks the ability to bark is still a dog because of its nature. A human person who lacks the ability to think rationally (either because she is too young or she suffers from a disability) is still a human person because of her nature. Consequently, it makes sense to speak of a human being's lack if and only if she is an actual person.

Second, the German Shepherd remains the same particular German Shepherd over time from the moment it comes into existence. Suppose you buy this German Shepherd as a puppy and name her "Shannon." When you first bring her home you notice that she is tiny in comparison to her parents and lacks their intellectual and physical abilities. But over time Shannon develops these abilities, learns a number of things her parents never learned, sheds her hair, has her nails clipped, becomes ten times larger than she was as a puppy, and undergoes significant development of her cellular structure, brain and cerebral cortex. Yet, this grown-up Shannon is identical to the puppy Shannon, even though it has gone through significant physical changes. Why? Because living organisms, or substances, maintain absolute identity through change. If not, then you never were literally the person you were last week (or five minutes ago), a teenager, ten-year old, three-year old, infant, or newborn. But you know that you were, even though the physical differences between you as an infant and you as an adult are considerable. In fact, this same you was also once a fetus, an embryo, and a zygote. To be sure, you have changed. But it is you who has changed. That is the important thing to understand. You remain you through all the changes. Thus, if you are a valuable human person now, then you were a valuable human person at every moment in your past including when you were in your mother's womb.

Suppose the abortion advocate, in response to our case, denies that there is a substantial self that remains the same through all the accidental changes the human being undergoes, i.e., there is no absolute identity between any stages in the existence of a human being. Proponents of this view maintain that personal identity consists in a series of experiences that do not require an underlying substance that has the experiences. My "personhood" is merely a string of psychological experiences connected by memory, beliefs, and/or character as well as causal, bodily and temporal continuity. And because this continuity does not extend to the fetal stages of existence, and perhaps not even to infancy, the unborn and perhaps the newborn are not persons.19 I will call this the no-subject view.20 What can we say in response to it? 21

It is not clear how the unborn and newborn are not persons according to this view. That is to say, how does it follow that my fetal and neonatal "selves" are not persons just because they are not part of the continuity of my current psychological series of experiences? After all, I can easily imagine a scenario, similar to what happened to Uncle Jed above, in which the body that was the physical locus of Francis Beckwith existed as a continuity of a series of experiences from 1962 (two years after his birth) until 1990, lapsed into a coma, and then came out of the coma in 1992 with no sense of continuity or memory including everything he learned from 1964 until 1990. We will call the "person" that came out of the coma, Francis Beckwith B. Now, clearly Francis Beckwith was a person according to the no-subject view even though his experiences were never part of the series of experiences of what became Francis Beckwith B. So, even if we grant that I was never my fetal or neonatal selves (in terms of conscious psychological experiences), it does not follow from that alone that my fetal and neonatal selves were not persons in their own right.

But perhaps I have misunderstood the no-subject view. It is possible that the defender of this view will respond by biting the bullet and making the counterintuitive claim that Francis Beckwith and Francis Beckwith B are actually two persons, but that their fetal and neonatal selves were not persons since their existence did not consist of psychological experiences connected by memory, beliefs, and/or character. So, the absence of psychological experiences is enough for the no-subject proponent to (1) deny personal continuity between my current self and my neonatal self even if there is causal, temporal, and bodily continuity between the latter and the former, and (2) deny that my prenatal and neonatal selves were persons.22 Such a move, though consistent with the no-subject view, seems too high a price to pay for consistency. For it results in problematic beliefs and ignores the explanatory power of the substance view. Consider the following examples.

First, if after Francis Beckwith lapsed into a coma and before Francis Beckwith B comes out of it, according to the no-subject view, it would not have been an act of homicide to kill the Francis Beckwith in the coma because in that state it was not part of a string of psychological experiences connected by memory, beliefs, and/or character. Yet, that seems wrong. It seems that killing Francis Beckwith while in the coma is an act of homicide. If, however, the no-subject proponent responds to this by saying that we have misunderstood his view and that it would be homicide to kill Francis Beckwith in the coma because there is causal, temporal, and bodily continuity between that Francis Beckwith and the ones prior to and following the coma, then the absence of a series of psychological experiences is not sufficient to say that a being is not a person. After all, there is causal, temporal, and bodily continuity between my prenatal self and my current self. Why, then, is not my prenatal self a person as well?

Second, although the no-subject view denies it, it still seems correct to say that Francis Beckwith and Francis Beckwith B are, in fact, the same person even though the latter has none of the memories and knowledge of the former. For suppose that five years after coming out of the coma, Francis Beckwith B unexpectedly recovers all the memories and knowledge of Francis Beckwith. Is there now a Francis Beckwith C or did Francis Beckwith B ever exist?

Third, because a human action involves thinking, reflection, deliberation, actualizing an intention, and bodily movement over time (e.g., proposing and carrying out a play in a basketball game, attending a four-year college for four years), and because the no-subject view denies that such human action requires an enduring substantial self, this would mean that, according to the no-subject view, the person thinking is literally a different person than the ones reflecting, deliberating, actualizing an intention and engaging in bodily movement. Even though these person-stages are strung together by experiences and bodily continuity, they are literally not the same person, for the no-subject view denies an enduring self over time.

Fourth, I have first person awareness of myself as a unified and enduring self over time. As Moreland points out, "Our knowledge that we are first person substantial, unified, enduring selves that have bodies and mental states but are not identical to them is grounded in our awareness of ourselves."23 This is why, for example, I may fear punishment in the future for deeds I committed years ago, have regrets for decisions in the past I ought not to have made, look back fondly on my childhood, and reflect upon what I have accomplished and whether I have fulfilled my potential.

It is clear from the above examples that the substance view, in comparison to the no-subject view, has far greater explanatory power in accounting for our common sense intuitions about personal continuity and moral obligation.24

Conclusion
We have seen that the attempt to either sidestep the issue of personhood or to make a distinction between human beings and human persons fails. Concerning the latter, we have seen that because the functions of personhood are grounded in the essential nature of humanness, and because human beings are persons that maintain identity through time from the moment they come into existence, it follows that the unborn are human persons of great worth because they possess that nature as long as they exist.

No doubt much more can be said about the problem of what constitutes personhood,25 but what is important to understand is that personhood criteria are riddled with serious problems and that the prolife advocate has been given no compelling reason to abandon her belief that the unborn are full-fledged members of the human community.26 CBHD


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1 I am using the term "fetus" in the popular sense as synonymous with "unborn." I am not using it in the technical sense of referring to the last stage in prenatal development after zygote and embryo. In other words, I am using the word fetus to refer to the unborn entity at all stages of its development prior to birth.

2 In order to get to the point where science is capable of cloning adult human beings with relative ease, literally hundreds of thousands of human embryos will have to be brought into existence and then discarded. Contrary to what the public has been told in popular films (such as Multiplicity and The Boys from Brazil), cloning is not a routine procedure. For example, in the case of Dolly, the sheep cloned in 1997 by Scottish scientist Ian Wilmut, hundreds of implants were created before Dolly was produced. Thus, in order for adult human cloning to become commonplace, thousands of human embryos will have to be purposely brought into existence and then disposed of. These embryos will not be treated as intrinsically valuable human subjects, but rather, as things to be used to further the ends of science or the benefit of others.

3 National Institutes of Health, "Executive Summary", in Final Report of the Human Embryo Research Panel (27 September 1994), as reprinted in Do the Right Thing: A Philosophical Dialogue on the Moral and Social Issues of Our Time, ed. Francis J. Beckwith (Belmont, CA: Wadsworth, 1996) 285.

4 Ibid. I respond to these and similar criteria in greater detail in Politically Correct Death: Answering the Arguments for Abortion Rights (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1993) chapters 3 and 6. See also, Patrick Lee, Abortion and Unborn Human Life (Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1996) chapters 1, 2, and 3.

5 Roe v. Wade 410 U.S. (1973) 113, 160.

6 Ibid., 163.

7 Ibid., 157-158.

8 I have argued in detail elsewhere that this appeal to ignorance (i.e., no one knows when life begins), far from establishing a right to abortion, actually leads to a prolife legal position. After all, if one killed without knowing whether the entity being killed is a human person with a right to life, it would be negligent to proceed with the killing. To use an illustration, if game hunters shot at rustling bushes with the same philosophical mind-set, the National Rifle Association's membership would become severely depleted. Ignorance of a being's status is certainly not justification to kill it. See Francis J. Beckwith, "Ignorance of Fetal Status as a Justification of Abortion: A Critical Analysis," in The Silent Subject: Reflections on the Unborn in American Culture, ed. Brad Stetson (Westport, CT: Praeger, 1996).

9 The facts of fetal development may be accessed from a number of different texts. In my research I found the following to be helpful: F. Beck, D. B. Moffat, and D. P. Davies, Human Embryology, 2nd ed. (Oxford: Blackwell, 1985); Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 2nd ed. (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders, 1977); Andre E. Hellegers, "Fetal Development", in Biomedical Ethics, eds. Thomas A. Mappes and Jane S. Zembatty (New York: Macmillan, 1981); Stephen M. Krason, Abortion: Politics, Morality, and the Constitution (Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1984); Bart T. Hefferman, "The Early Biography of Everyman," in Abortion and Social Justice, eds. Thomas W. Hilgers, MD and Dennis J. Horan, Esq. (New York: Sheed & Ward, 1972), 3-25; Motion and Brief Amicus Curiae of Certain Physicians, Professors, and Fellows of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology in Support of Appelees, submitted to the Supreme Court of the United States, October Term, 1971, No. 70-18, Roe v. Wade, and No. 70-40, Doe v. Bolton, prepared by Dennis J. Horan, et al. (The list of amici contains the names of more than two hundred physicians), as quoted in Stephen D. Schwarz, The Moral Question of Abortion (Chicago: Loyola University Press, 1990) 2-6.

10 This has been challenged by C.A. Bedate and R.C. Cefalo in their essay, "The Zygote: To Be or Not to Be a Person," Journal of Medicine and Philosophy 14 (1989): 627-635. Their case, however, is seriously flawed, both factually and philosophically. See the following replies: Lee, Abortion and Unborn Human Life, 98-102; and Antoine Suarez, "Hydatidiform Moles and Teratomas Confirm the Human Identity of the Preimplantation Embryo," Journal of Medicine and Philosophy 15 (1990).

11 See Baruch Brody, Abortion and the Sanctity of Human Life: A Philosophical View (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1975).

12 See Mary Anne Warren, "On the Moral and Legal Status of Abortion," in Do the Right Thing, 171-75. This article originally appeared in The Monist 57.1 (1973). Michael Tooley holds a view similar to Warren's. For a recent presentation of his perspective, see Tooley, "In Defense of Abortion and Infanticide," in The Abortion Controversy 25 Years After Roe v. Wade: A Reader, 2nd ed., ed. Louis P. Pojman and Francis J. Beckwith (Belmont, CA: Wadsworth, 1998) 209-33.

13 See L. W. Sumner, Abortion and Moral Theory (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1981).

14 Schwarz provides a similar example in The Moral Question of Abortion, 90.

15 John Jefferson Davis, Abortion and the Christian (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed, 1984) 57.

16 J.P. Moreland, "James Rachels and the Active Euthanasia Debate," Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 31 (March, 1988) 86.

17 Ibid., 87. For a fuller defense of this "substance" view of persons, see J.P. Moreland and Scott B. Rae, Body and Soul (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000).

18 J.P. Moreland, "Humanness, Personhood, and the Right to Die," Faith and Philosophy 12.1 (January 1995) 101.

19 See, for example, Peter McInerny, "Does a Fetus Already Have a Future-Like-Ours?," The Journal of Philosophy 87 (1990) 264-268; and Derek Parfit, Reasons and Persons (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1984).

20 This is a name coined by Lee in Abortion and Unborn Human Life, 37.

21 \ For a response more detailed than I can offer here, see Ibid., 37-45; and Moreland and Rae, Body and Soul.

22 This is the position taken by McInerny in "Does a Fetus Already Have a Future-Like-Ours?"

23 Moreland, "Humanness," 103.

24 Why then is this view accepted by many philosophers and bioethicists? I believe that the primary motivation for maintaining the no-subject view in the face of such problems is a commitment to materialism. The dominant metaphysical view of intellectuals in the West, materialism maintains that all that exists is the physical world, that non-physical things like God, angels, natures, substances, souls, and morality do not actually exist. (Morality, some materialists argue, is real, only insofar as it is a social construction resulting from evolution, but it has no ontological status apart from the institutions, laws, and social contracts that have benefited human survival.) Materialist Paul Churchland writes: "The important point about the standard evolutionary story is that the human species and all of its features are the wholly physical outcome of a purely physical process. . . . If this is the correct account of our origins, then there seems neither need, nor room, to fit any nonphysical substances or properties into our theoretical account of ourselves. We are creatures of matter. And we should learn to live with that fact" (Paul Churchland, Matter and Consciousness [Cambridge, MA: M.I.T. Press, 1984] 12). It is interesting to note that Churchland's materialism entails determinism. Given that, it is difficult to understand his instruction that "we should learn to live with that fact." For if all my apparently free acts are determined, then there are no "shoulds." This, of course, is another reason to abandon the no-subject view.

25 See Beckwith, Politically Correct Death; Gregory P. Koukl, Precious Unborn Human Persons (San Pedro, CA: Stand to Reason, 1999); Lee, Abortion and Human Life; Don Marquis, "Why Abortion Is Immoral," The Journal of Philosophy 86 (April 1989) 183-202; Don Marquis, "A Future Life Ours and the Concept of Person: A Reply to McInerny and Paske," in The Abortion Controversy; Moreland and Rae, Body and Soul; and Schwarz, The Moral Question of Abortion.

26 There are some, though not many, who argue that the moral question of abortion is not contingent upon the status of the fetus. They include Judith Jarvis Thomson ("A Defense of Abortion," Philosophy and Public Affairs 1 [1971]); Frances M. Kamm (Creation and Abortion: A Study in Moral and Legal Philosophy [New York: Oxford, 1992]); Eileen McDonagh (Breaking the Abortion Deadlock: From Choice to Consent [New York: Oxford, 1996]); Laurence Tribe (Abortion: The Clash of Absolutes [New York: Norton, 1990], ch. 6); and David Boonin-Vail ("A Defense of 'A Defense of Abortion: On the Responsibility Objection to Thomson's Argument," Ethics 107.2 [January 1997] 286-313). Although this is an important and influential perspective, it falls outside the scope of this essay because the purpose of this essay is to reply to those who believe that (1) human personhood is doing the moral work in the abortion debate; (2) the unborn are not human persons; and/or (3) the issue personhood can be sidestepped. For replies to this perspective, see Francis J. Beckwith, "Personal Bodily Rights, Abortion, and Unplugging the Violinist," International Philosophical Quarterly 32 (1992) 105-118; Lee, Abortion, chapter 4; Keith Pavlischek, "Abortion Logic and Paternal Responsibilities: One More Look at Judith Thomson's Argument and a Critique of David Boonin-Vail's Defense of It," in The Abortion Controversy; and John T. Wilcox, "Nature as Demonic in Thomson's Defense of Abortion," The New Scholasticism 63 (Autumn 1989) 463-484.



#39 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 06:27 AM

This segement also struck me as significant. I believe that one of the strongest indicators that an organism is self aware is its ability to comprehend its own mortality.

In stark contrast to the gorillas' ability to express humor is their ability to communicate their thoughts and feelings about death. When Koko was seven, one of her teachers asked, "When do gorillas die?" and she signed, "Trouble, old." The teacher also asked, "Where do gorillas go when they die?" and Koko replied, "Comfortable hole bye." When asked "How do gorillas feel when they die-happy, sad, afraid?" she signed, "Sleep." Koko's reference to holes in the context of death has been consistent and is puzzling since no one has ever talked to her about burial, nor demonstrated the activity. That there may be an instinctive basis for this is indicated by an observation at the Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle, Washington. The gorillas there came upon a dead crow in their new outdoor enclosure, and one dug a hole, flicked the crow in, and covered it with dirt.7

In December of 1984 a tragic accident indicated the extent to which gorillas may grieve over the death of their loved ones. Koko's favorite kitten, All Ball, slipped out the door and was killed by a speeding car. Koko cried shortly after she was told of his death. Three days later, when asked, "Do you want to talk about your kitty?" Koko signed, "Cry." "What happened to your kitty?" Koko answered, "Sleep cat." When she saw a picture of a cat who looked very much like All Ball, Koko pointed to the picture and signed, "Cry, sad, frown." Her grief was not soon forgotten.



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Posted 08 June 2005 - 07:56 AM

Thanks for posting that pro-life paper Don. As you'd expect I didn't find it convincing, I've read similar arguments by those groups in the past.

The pro-life groups are quite active on the internet. One advantage they have on this issue is that their position is clear, a human is a person from conception to death. Yet it seems they sacrifice validity for clarity, at least in some cases.

I haven't read the essay you linked to on "The Case for the Personhood of Chimps" yet, but I'm aware of Koko and her capacity for human social interaction. She seems to qualify for the status of person.

#41 Clifford Greenblatt

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 08:58 AM

Clifford

The assigned task of the fertilised egg is to develop into a mature person.


Who or what was the assigner of this task?

Answer the question please, Clifford.
[glasses]

If nature is all there is to reality, then the biological administration system assigns all the tasks. This process is known as differentiation. If there is a Designer who transcends nature, then the Designer created the laws by which the tasks were assigned. The biological administration system would still assign all the tasks but would do so according to the created laws of nature rather than the autonomous laws of nature.

#42 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 12:17 PM

OK folks I warned against entering the *personhood* argument because the word is vague and broad to the point of being almost meaningless. If a word has so many different uses that not only can I mean one thing and you a significantly different other one both legitimately that is bad enough: What is worse is that these meanings can contradict.

Here is why, look at the meaning of person.

per·son
n.
1.  A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
2.  An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
3.  The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
4.  The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person.

5.  Physique and general appearance.
6.  Law. A human or organization with legal rights and duties.
7.  Christianity. Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them.

8.  Grammar.
     a)  Any of three groups of pronoun forms with corresponding verb inflections that distinguish the speaker (first person), the individual addressed (second person), and the individual or thing spoken of (third person).
     b)  Any of the different forms or inflections expressing these distinctions.
9.  A character or role, as in a play; a guise: “Well, in her person, I say I will not have you” (Shakespeare).

Idiom:
in person
In one's physical presence; personally: applied for the job in person.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persna, mask, role, person, probably from Etruscan phersu, mask.]

Usage Note: The word person has found widespread use in recent decades as a gender-neutral alternative to man in the names of occupational and social roles, such as businessperson, chairperson, spokesperson, and layperson. In addition, a variety of entirely new, more inclusive phrases have arisen to compete with or supplant -man compounds. Now we often hear first-year student instead of freshman and letter carrier instead of mailman. In other cases, a clipped form, such as chair for chairman, or a phrase, such as member of the clergy for clergyman, has found widespread use as a neutral alternative. Reflecting this trend, new standards of official usage for occupational titles have been established by the U.S. Department of Labor and other government agencies; for instance, in official contexts, terms such as firefighter and police officer are now generally used in place of fireman and policeman. See Usage Note at man.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition  Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

person
In addition to the idiom beginning with person, also see feel like oneself (a new person); in person; own person, one's.


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer.
Copyright © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.



per·son (pûrsn)
n.
1.  A living human.
2.  The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
3.  The living body of a human.

4.  Physique and general appearance.

Source: The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.



Main Entry: per·son
Function: noun
1 : NATURAL PERSON
2 : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing of a human being
3 : one (as a human being or corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties —see also JURIDICAL PERSON, LEGAL PERSON, PERSONALITY —per·son·hood noun

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


person

n 1: a human being; "there was too much for one person to do" [syn: individual, someone, somebody, mortal, human, soul]
2: a person's body (usually including their clothing); "a weapon was hidden on his person"
3: a grammatical category of pronouns and verb forms; "stop talking about yourself in the third person"

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
http://dictionary.re...h?r=67&q=person


So person is a word that has so much memetic baggage that a careful application of its various tenets could rationally make the case that corporation has a soul. My advice is that this word is vague to the point of being worthless.

Not that what we mean is worthless but the misuses of the word and depth of historical and memetic content make it virtually impossible to have a fully rational dialog with a definition for being a person as the basis of the discussion. We might as well be discussing the characteristics of leprechauns in all their depth and intricacy.

It does help a little to refine the point to just *personhood* but it is also impossible to discuss personhood without also discussing being a person.

per·son·hood
n.
The state or condition of being a person, especially having those qualities that confer distinct individuality: “finding her own personhood as a campus activist” (Walter Shapiro).

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

personhood
n : being a person; "finding her own personhood as a campus activist"

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


The word person is indelibly linked by usage to some things we are discussing but also to *spiritual* characteristics that define a *property* for a spiritual being. This is analogous to the debate I wage when attempting to separate the word *mind* from the word *soul*.

It is the same problem for the word person; the common usage retains a quality of *soul* in a spiritual sense that it is INTENDED to possess. This is NOT a scientific debate if you start by trying to define spiritual terms.

I further warn that the memetics of spirituality are interwoven with many defining characteristics for self identification and that is why we are going to engage this again and again and before there can be a fully rational discussion with respect to self awareness there must be a more profound debate that separates the principles of the mind from the soul and then defines the self in terms of one or the other, or even both but based on substantive demonstrable (identifiable) qualities not mythical, implied, or wished for ones.

Discussing the *potentiality for personhood* is most probably an irrational exercise, like arguing the characteristics of fictional beings (aliens or angels).

Could they exist?

Sure but mostly this is the indulgence of ignorant and not so innocent fantasy.

If you want to defend a materialist standard then be very careful of being routinely caught up in a spiritual analysis.

Ultimately we must all return to the discussion of mind versus soul and decide if even if such an informational quality of the soul exists, and were it to be analogous to how we define the self; then is that quality contained with a mind contained with a brain contained within a body, in the manner of onions or Russian Dolls or is it a definable quality NOT not intrinsically dependent on the containers?

Or is there a critical level of containment?

I should also say that the spiritual argument in this respect is weak too and inherently inconsistent. You see their problem is that the *immortal soul* is NOT dependent on a body. They cannot have it both ways.

If the *self* is the materialist term for the spiritual *soul* then we need to be very clear on this point because otherwise we are ultimately all arguing at cross purposes.

#43 John Schloendorn

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 12:26 PM

Ethics presumes free will, and is only applicable to real-world decisions when there is no willful designer who would override the actualization of our free will. Thus, let's focus on cases where there is free will and no willful designer:

If there is no willful designer, then the claims

"The assigned task of the fertilised egg is to develop into a mature person", "This is not the assigned task of the skin cell"
"the biological administration system assigns all the tasks"

are not value-judgements, but naturalistic facts. (They say nothing about desirability.) To equate facts with value-judgements is a naturalistic fallacy, and as such does not support the argument. (One reason that this is so is the lack of a mechanism by which facts and values could interact.)

#44 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 03:12 PM

Ethics presumes free will, and is only applicable to real-world decisions when there is no willful designer who would override the actualization of our free will. Thus, let's focus on cases where there is free will and no willful designer:


This is a really important point and I want to emphasize that I agree completely.

However it also introduces a conundrum because choice suggests as well that there is at least one willful designing agent, us. As technology and science provides us the means to make design choice it is our right by virtue of the ability to do so unless it can be demonstrated to rationally be impinging upon some other agents' possessions, *designs* or rights.

We can certainly argue the rational advantage of developing healthier life opportunities for our offspring (and ourselves) based on limiting the number of offspring and maximizing their quality for body and mind.

I think this follows logically as a natural strategy for advancing evolution for any species predicated on its adaptive success with respect to accessing environmental resources; what I call Environmental Economics. I suspect this is also in part what is viewed as unethical, but as I suggested earlier; once possessed of the knowledge for how to do something better it could be considered unethical to NOT take advantage of that ability.

I suspect that the reticence that is a part of the regressive mindset inhibiting progress is derivative of forced change. Change which can unravel established morals based upon former conditions once those conditions are irrevocably altered. It is certainly at the core of that myth of genesis I alluded to that makes the acquisition of knowledge the original sin. A myth that suggests it is our quest for knowledge that violates Spinoza's God *Nature,* and its Law of Natural Selection.

The fact that it may do so by maximizing a memetic advantage should be understood as an important but separate topic. But the point is that it moves the bar of responsibility for behavior from chance to choice and chance represents fate whether with spelled with a lower case *l* for luck or an upper case *D* for Divine Determinism.

It is not merely the value of comparative desirability for specific techniques and ideas that we are debating but also whether or not we have a right to know how to make these improvements on our own species when we look at the larger social concerns of the debate.

Who shall be the final arbiter for human evolution, fate, chance, or choice?

Edited by Lazarus Long, 08 June 2005 - 08:13 PM.


#45 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 08:34 PM

JS

Ethics presumes free will


Interesting, I do not agree, though I would love to be enlightened. It is commonly assumed that ethics is founded upon the presumption of free will (the independent ability of the agent to choose), but this need not be the case. All that is required is a uniformed code upon which the "right or wrongness" of an action can be determined (based upon an assessment of its net effect on society), plus a means by which to identify the focused (iow, immediate, concentrated, etc) source of said actions and assign responsibility.

It is perfectly plausible to have an ethical system where the individual is viewed entirely as a "unit of society" and the consequences of his/her actions assessed accordingly. In fact, this is one of th corner stones of utilitarianism, which I have come to view as "objective ethics".

#46 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 08:40 PM

I'm curious Lazarus, and perhaps I am confusing your argument here, but have you changed your perspective in the past few months?

Are you not in effect defending an ethical position of *intentionality*? And wasn't it you who, upon my using intentionality in a reproductive cloning debate, said, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

#47 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 08:46 PM

All that is required is a uniformed code upon which the "right or wrongness" of an action can be determined (based upon an assessment of its net effect on society), plus a means by which to identify the focused (iow, immediate, concentrated, etc) source of said actions and assign responsibility.


Talk is cheap Don. The logical analysis of all ethical principle devolves into mere rhetoric without free will.

Without the concept of free will there is no rational means of really applying *responsibility* for action in terms of choice because in a hard determinism universe what alternative exists but to do what you do?

Causality is a cruel master.

It is possible to have all sorts of theoretical systems of ethics. It is not possible to have them be applicable in terms of responsibility without free will. That is the whole aspect of a *compulsory defense* in the case of various extremes when a person's mental state or the application of extortionist third party force becomes a mitigating factor.

#48 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 08:48 PM

OK folks I warned against entering the *personhood* argument because the word is vague and broad to the point of being meaningless.  If a word has so many different uses that not only can I mean one thing and you another both legitimately that is bad enough:  What is worse is that these meanings can contradict.


Maybe you have a point Laz in terms of the semantics and the memetic packaging of the concept of "personhood". However, I am quite convinced that the issue IS all about defining personhood or, stated differently, moral agency. How exactly one goes about this I am not entirely sure, but semantics aside, I believe (or at least hope) that you have something of an understanding of the ethical standard I am trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to establish.

#49 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 08:54 PM

I'm curious Lazarus, and perhaps I am confusing your argument here, but have you changed your perspective in the past few months?

Are you not in effect defending an ethical position of *intentionality*? And wasn't it you who, upon my using intentionality in a reproductive cloning debate, said, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."


Not really. I am embarking down that road. :))

The point is that I am saying it is valid to adjudicate intentions a priori and this is a can of worms too. I am quite confident that a great many more libertarian minded people in our forms are going to resist this tactic but it is far preferable than allowing the potential argument, which is invalid and allows both sides to simply continue arguing ad infinitum. An argument however that is losing ground politically.

There has been a reversal of fortune for the religious right around the issue of SCNT and ESC is an issue they are defining using essentially creationist argument.

IF that is not challenged successfully the repercussions will be greater than just for stem cell research. The entire legality of abortion is at stake as well as all manner of fetal interventionist technology, to include many that are not about synthetic opportunity but simply proven methodologies that involve choice over whether to have a Down's Syndrome child for example.

#50 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 09:09 PM

Lazarus

Talk is cheap Don. The logical analysis of all ethical principle devolves into mere rhetoric without free will. 


Wow, for the first time in quite a while I find myself disagreeing with you rather vehemently, Ken.

First keep in mind that I am not arguing for a position of Hard Determinism, only that it is possible to maintain an ethical system from within its confines.

Without the concept of free will there is no rational means of really applying *responsibility* for action in terms of choice because in a hard determinism universe what alternative exists but to do what you do?


I can't tell you how surprised I am that you are arguing this position. Assigning (ultimate) responsiblity is unnecessary and more than likely a fool's errand.

Causality is a cruel master.

It is possible to have all sorts of theoretical systems of ethics.  It is not possible to have them be applicable in terms of responsibility without free will.


Sure it is. Society is a self regulating, self correcting system whose goal it is to advance itself (the concept of "advancement" is another debate entirely). The ultimate responsibility for all actions rests upon society. Individuals are smaller sub-units, *components* of society. What is important is the consequences of an individual's actions upon society and the consequences of a society's collective response to those actions.

#51 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 09:27 PM

But the truth of consequences is that they are still just strictly causal without a least some element of freedom of choice. There must be active choice or at best you have passive neglect. But there must be alternatives from good to bad or they become simplistic relativist abstractions without free will and consequences becomes just another term for cause and effect.

Of course I understand what you are saying but I said a long time ago that I am a soft deterministic for these reasons. There must be *free choice* even within a closed range of options that allow for the evaluation from good to bad. Without that freedom of choice (what is often called Free Will) there is no responsibility for action, only causal actions and compulsory consequences that are not really about ethical judgments only the effects of action and reaction ad absurdum.

Ethical systems can only assign responsibility to where they can affirm that it is possible to have made alternative decisions. This is the trap of fatalism.

Before we go at this too far I have been working on a counter argument to Free Will predicated on the idea that Free Will is still deterministic but it is based on who is asserting the act of will. Essentially to imply total freedom of choice as opposed to total or hard determinism is probably a false dichotomy IOW IMHO.

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 09:28 PM

I hate to cut in, but I'd like to pose a few questions. Would Dennett's concept of free will give cells the ability to have minimal intent?

I realize Laz would not accept personhood as an objective measure, but should an entity qualify for personhood before it's free will and intent are recognized? Should a person's intent be able to override the possible minimal intent of lower life forms (unless in conflict with other people's intent)? If not, would we be required to respect the intent of all life, from cells to animals?

#53 Kalepha

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 09:32 PM

I have to agree with Don. Laz, if not on terms of responsibility, then on terms of what? We still experience the Path whether we have freewill or not. I’m sure most would like to experience more peace and security and less corruption and violence. We don’t act to stop acting just because acting might be an illusion of volition.

Or is this out of context?

#54 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 09:34 PM

That is where I am going with this too Cosmos. There is a scale of responsibility for action based on the limits of self *determination* (not potential) there must be a *will* present to assign biological matter a self-hood.

Clifford is essentially arguing that self-hood exits for the cells after conception but the standard he is applying would also apply before conception. He and most bio-conservatives won't make that case but it is a logical derivation and is at the heart of Catholic doctrine for example.

I do not think Dennett would grant intent to a blastocyst but there is obviously a line crossed somewhere during a pregnancy. I do not think the potential for a *will* constitutes intent.

#55 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 10:02 PM

Cosmos

I hate to cut in, but I'd like to pose a few questions. Would Dennett's concept of free will give cells the ability to have minimal intent?


Funny that you should bring this up Cosmos, because I had Dennett on my mind the entire time during this exchange. Dennett believes that clear cut distinctions in terms of intelligence and moral reasoning are strictly human constructs with no basis in reality. He also puts forward a position on FW know as compatibilism, which I am a proponent of.

My argument against the necessity of "responsibility" is taken directly from Dennett's Freedom Evolves, but what is truly remarkable is that both the positions that Lazarus and myself are putting forward are presented almost simultaneously in this book. This makes me wonder if maybe an integrated approach is possible.

I realize Laz would not accept personhood as an objective measure, but should an entity qualify for personhood before it's free will and intent are recognized? Should a person's intent be able to override the possible minimal intent of lower life forms (unless in conflict with other people's intent)? If not, would we be required to respect the intent of all life, from cells to animals?


While I am not denying the difficulty in attaining an objective measuer of "personhood" or "agentness", I do believe that a respectable approximation can be made which correlates fairly closely with reality. Again, this avenue encounters difficulties in establishing standards without bias but I do not believe that the argument centered around personhood should be dropped simply because of this particular difficult.

A more damaging aspect of my argument, which Lazarus alluded to, but did not really follow through with conclusively is the issue of "potentiality" which manages to almost imperceptably creep in at the end of my logic. You see, my argument for protection of the new born is based on --A-- its exclusivity from its mother (ie, a separation of rights and interests) --B-- society's interests in preserving the new born because of its value to society.

What I should have added was "its potential value to society". My argument assumes the future productive potential of an infant becoming a contributing member of society (a person :) )

It really is difficult in arguments like these to make an air tight case because "potentiality" has a funny way of always sneaking in. So I can understand Lazarus' desire to alter the field of play and try to for "intentionality", however I am still not sure that this can be made to work, though I will have to think about this more carefully now.

#56 eternaltraveler

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 10:20 PM

I like the way this discussion as proceded. Unfortunately there is no real way to possibly win it. The biocon side is inevitably based on religion, no matter what the drivel is they throw in to confuse the issue and pretend like it isn't about religion at all.

#57 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 10:22 PM

Lazarus

I do not think Dennett would grant intent to a blastocyst but there is obviously a line crossed somewhere during a pregnancy. I do not think the potential for a *will* constitutes intent.


I believe there is very little tangible difference between your concept of *will* and the concept of *personhood*. Yes, there are ambiguities in the concept of personhood, but it is nonetheless predicated on the concept of the will. From my perspective you are simply shifting the field of play, but not changing the underlying essentials of the debate.

But regardless, how exactly does an eight month fetus have a *will* that constitutes intent? Dear sir, it seems that you're making my argument, only more eloquently. :))

#58 DJS

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 10:30 PM

Elrond

I like the way this discussion as proceded.  Unfortunately there is no real way to possibly win it.  The biocon side is inevitably based on religion, no matter what the drivel is they throw in to confuse the issue and pretend like it isn't about religion at all.


Their arguments may defend religion Elrond, but they are not based on it. If their arguments were exclusively religious they would be much easier to contain. Most bio-cons center their position around meta-physics, a mode of thought around for millennia before the christ child was born. In fact you share a distinct passion in common with Mr. Kass -- his love of Aristotle. :))

#59 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 10:30 PM

But regardless, how exactly does an eight month fetus have a *will* that constitutes intent?


By giving mom a swift kick in the side when unhappy with her choice of food for example or when hungry. Actually a fetus in the eight month can distinguish between mom's voice and that of others according to some studies and is soothed by tranquil music.. We do not want to go down this road. [wis]

You are correct to suggest that I am intentionally shifting the playing field. That is because I see the difference between a winning *high-ground* and a killing field. It isn't the fact that you and I share a very similar meaning for person that is important Don, it is that Clifford and many others do not.

If we fight that fight as I demonstrated from the definitions the argument can be at best a draw.

Intent however is an act of *will* that demonstrates the presence not the mere potential of a person (self/mind).

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Posted 08 June 2005 - 10:31 PM

A more damaging aspect of my argument, which Lazarus alluded to, but did not really follow through with conclusively is the issue of "potentiality" which manages to almost imperceptably creep in at the end of my logic.  You see, my argument for protection of the new born is based on --A-- its exclusivity from its mother (ie, a separation of rights and interests) --B-- society's interests in preserving the new born because of its value to society.

What I should have added was "its potential value to society".  My argument assumes the future productive potential of an infant becoming a contributing member of society (a person  :) )

It really is difficult in arguments like these to make an air tight case because "potentiality" has a funny way of always sneaking in.  So I can understand Lazarus' desire to alter the field of play and try to for "intentionality", however I am still not sure that this can be made to work, though I will have to think about this more carefully now.


In fact Don, I disagreed with you on this point earlier, but for pragmatic reasons supported an infant's right to life because of the dangers of infanticide against the will of one or both parents. Additionally modern human societies would not accept government sanctioned infanticide, and science and technology haven't progressed to where they can more precisely assess the personhood of infants and toddlers. So for now, I'd limit these procedures to abortion while still managing to reject the potentiality argument. I will admit this is ethically uneasy territory though.




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