41 replies to this topic

[zoolander]

From everyones experiance what is the best multivitamin/mineral/antioxidant combo on the market. years ago whe I had a little bit of money to spend I used to buy the LEF mix but now find it too expensive.

I am currently using Source Naturals LIFE FORCE multi (180 tabs or 3 months supply). It seems pretty good and ven with my import cost to Australia I have calculated a months supply to cost me AUS$32 (US$25).

I was wondering what other people think. Who has done their research?

Has the mutli you buy got scientifically proven substances at effective amounts in them?

[zoolander]

Additionally, NSI seem to be an awesome brand. Well researched and they contain good quanities of the researched subtances and opposed to smaller amounts. However, NSI supplements are distributed through vitacost.com and their shipping cost to foreign countries are ridiculous. For some reason they believe they have the right to charge customs duties to international companies.

As a scientist, I would like to commend Life Mirage, ScottL and many others for their sound advice in these forums. I am not sure whether they have formal education in the areas in which they discuss but from my professional standpoint (biochemistry and physiology) their advise is scientifically sound most of the time. I spent the last 8-10 years studying and researching in the above mentioned fields and I have a lot to learn from these guys.

Congrats on such an awesome forum guys

[scottl]

NSI looks very impressive....VERY. Alas they put bioperine...looks like in every multiple. Can't recommend that*. Too bad really as they do have the right idea.

I'm a doc but I've learned what I know by reading about supps for the last....20+ years. I don't know that there is formal education in that area...well unless you get an ND (doctor of naturopathy).

Given an idea of what you're looking for I can say I don't know any others like that. Your choices are Life extension although you need to supp some things e.g. gamma tocopherol. The other one is AOR's powder or caps multiple. Or do what I do start with a basic one and take tons of pills LOL.

BTW how did you find NSI brand?

*Given your background you would understand...do you really want to inhibit p450?

[johnmk]

It's the VitaCost "store brand."

[johnmk]

I take AOR's Ortho-Core. It's quite possibly the best formulation for a multivitamin/mineral/phytonutrient/etc. combination. I am not in a financial state to afford the full dose however, so I take 6 pills per day instead of the recommended 9 maximum. That's about $1/day for something potentially far better than Costco's multivitamin at a cost of 1/15th that.

[zoolander]

How did I discover NSI? Well I am a researcher by trade and I have spent quite some time researching various supplements in my own personal time. Like most people here I guess.

[zoolander]

I should add though that most people here seem to be very responsible and well researched.

I have a lot to learn from people in these forums and become somewhat addicted to being involved

[zoolander]

How are you feeling today enigma? I hope your exam went ok

[psychenaut]

AOR Ortho-Core is one of the most advanced formulations in the world. The individual known as AORSupport from these forums helped formulate it. It costs less than LEF. Read the ingredients. What else should I say? [hmm]

Even if you can only afford one Ortho-Core capsule per day it is likely better than a handful of unknown bioavailability, unknown quality, potentially sub-optimal formulations found anywhere else. I don't tout it because I sell it, I sell it because it is the best.

Pete

Edited by psychenaut, 23 June 2005 - 01:40 PM.

[zoolander]

Your post seems to have nothing to do with this current post. You posting your opinion of a supplement that you sell appears to be a conflict of interest.

Hey buy all means have confidence in the products that you sell but dont change the subject all of a sudden to do so.

Im sorry psychenaut, but I cannot take your advise on supplement quality as unbiased when you have your companies name at the bottom. I do not however have any qualms about you sending me some Ortho-Core to sample free of charge. LOL

[zoolander]

I take the first sentence back, it does apply to this post. I thought I was in another area. My sincere apologies on the psychenaut. However I stand strong on the conflict of interest view.

[johnmk]

You should be able to edit your post, and you might even be able to delete it as well (clicking on the X may do that?).

[ozone]

I used to take a multi called "Alive" and I "thought" it was good until I read about Ortho-Core. It's honestly the best multi out there. It doesn't have a single A,B,C,E but rather a full complex of each. I've never seen a multivitamin do that before. Additionally, it doesn't overdose on E like many other vitamins do; and it contains BOTH Tocopherols and Tocotrienols of E, again which virtually no other multi does. It even has 200mg of NAC in it, which essentially does away with the need to purchase NAC separately.

Also, just in general be skeptical of multivitamins giving you 3,333% of something. Ortho-Core is about 100% of everything, but other vitamins go overboard. For example, there have been studies that taking too much Vitamin C can create a rust-like effect on the inside of your body. Taking too much Calcium can calcify your internal organs (my fiancie's friend died of that). So taking too much of anything just isn't wise, so give your multi a good hard look before taking it.

@psychenaut
Hey man, I wanted to mention something about your Ortho-Core you sell. I've bought two from you and each time the plastic bottle comes with an irreversable dent in it. I don't know if this dent happens during shipment (because it's not shipped in a box) or your company recieved it dented. But if indeed the bottle is undented when you ship it to me, you might want to consider using actual boxes to ship it in because one of these days whatever is causing the dent (maybe 100 other packages lying on top of it in the post office) will cause the top of the bottle to pop off and all the pills to come out.

But to those who haven't ordered from relentless yet, you should. The shipping is really fast and they have the best customer service I've ever experienced.

[scottl]

I've been trying to avoid criticizing AORs product--which is good in many ways, but....


[EDIT; AORs products are excellent overall and I use a number. I just have a few isssues with the multi.]


"For example, there have been studies that taking too much Vitamin C can create a rust-like effect on the inside of your body."

Search Benson's posts at avant. The optimal dose of vit C is on the order of several grams/day in divided doses. What you report is one of the studies trying to smear vitamin c.

"Taking too much Calcium can calcify your internal organs (my fiancie's friend died of that). "

1. While it is possible to take too much calcium, not enough is far more an issue for most people and "too much" would be over 1500 mg/day and probably over 2000 mg/day.

2. I'm not sure what medical condition got translated to you as having your internal organs calcify (unless they ODed on tons of vitamin D) but it didn't come from taking too much calcium...very more then likely.


I should also note that the doses of b vitamins (again search Benson's posts at avant) are IMHO not enough. Doubly that for anyone who is active, but I've even had sedentary people report benefits adding a B-50 to the multile with..basically a B-25.

Edited by scottl, 09 June 2005 - 09:48 PM.

[zoolander]

You should be able to edit your post, and you might even be able to delete it as well (clicking on the X may do that?).

Thanks dude.

Everyone should check out NSI. They are only sold by vitacost.com and vitacost.com's parent companies.

Quite amazing supplements at really decent prices. Unfortunately I stopped taking them because vitacost.com started charging customs duties taxes on behalf of Australian customs and they sem to be one of those companis that fool you with the saving in the supplements but seek their profits in shipping costs. I would still be taking NSI today if it wasnt for the excessive shipping costs to Australia.

Oh yeah and the rust you refer to with vitamin C would basically be another way of referring to oxidation or the potential pro-oxidant effects of a substance. I am not aware of vitamin C having a pro-oxidant effect but have read about vitamin E having pro-oxidant potential at high dosages.

Regarding the calcification of organs. Who is telling you this stuff? Calcium homeostasis is very efficent at maintaining normal blood calcium levels. Both the extracellular and intracellular concentrations of Ca are tightly regulated by bidirectional Ca transport across the plasma membrane of cells and by the membranes of intracellular organelles such as the endoplasmic reticulum, the sarcoplasmic reticulum of muscle cells, and the mitochondria.

Most pathologies involving defective calcium metabolism result in hypocalcaemia, or low calcium. However, there is a condition called hyperparathyroidism that results in hypercalceamia, or high plasma calcium, and this is usually the result of excessive bone reabsorption. Such is the usually the result of a parathyroid adenoma and not an increase in supplemental calcium.

[scottl]

Zoolander,

You didn't address the issue of bioperine. What are your thoughts on this?

[zoolander]

I believe the paper you are refering to (PMID: 1213072, Piperine, a major constituent of black pepper, inhibits human P-glycoprotein and CYP3A4) does state inhibition of CYP3A4 or P450. Good point and thanks for pointing that out.

Considering that this is one of the major cytochromes involved in the oxidation of various xenobiotics in the liver, those taking supplements containing bioperine, need to be aware of possible inhibition as it may result in drug overdose.

I guess this is the pretence on bioperine works. That is, to increase the bioavailability of the supplements you take by decreasing the oxidation of the supplement via first-pass metabolism in the liver, resulting in a higher blood plasma concentrations.

Some example of drugs and compounds that are detoxified/oxidized via CPY3A4 pathway are caffeine, DHEA, Viagra and warfarin.

Full like here
http://www.delano.co...substrates.html

Actually my knowledge about bioperine is not good. I have read that effect the pharmacokinetics of the anticonvulsant drug phenytoin (PMID: 11808866) but have also read that it enhances the bioavailability of the tea polyphenol (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate in mice (PMID: 15284381). If you need thefull PDF copies of these papers scottL email me and I will send them to you.

So what are my thoughts? Shit, scottL you just opened up a can of worms for me!

I will quote comments from a paper adressing this (PMID: 15898829) "This article highlights the involvement of CYP enzymes in metabolism-related drug-herb interactions and the importance of gaining a mechanism-based understanding to avoid potential adverse drug reactions, in addition to outlining other contributory factors, such as pharmacogenetics and recreational habits that may compound this important health issue."

[scottl]

Zoolander,

There is....some little more here even though it talks about grapefruit juice in a different context:

http://www.designers...p?articles_id=4

My understanding of P450 is rudimentary e.g. I know there is a phase I and a phase II and I had thought the best set of circumstances from a health perspective was to have both pase I and II working optimally. However I've read all the positive info on cucumin which...perhaps inhibits phase I....so I'm not sure what to think and I need to go back to the drawing board and find more info on this.

Oh and beyond what bioperine does to metabolism of drugs the question is does it affect the body's processing of the usual non-drug sbstances that it needs to process in daily life.

Oh and the issue was first brought to our attention by AORsupport who used to post on this board.

[psychenaut]

Hi Folks, sorry to interrupt your good science discussion but I wanted to speak to a couple of the issues raised.

Hi Ozone,

Sorry for the tardy reply! I just caught this. Regarding dented bottles, I am glad you brought that up. AOR and I have had several conversations about this.

What actually seems to be going on is that the bottling occurs in Calgary, Alberta Canada (fixed!) which if memory serves is about 3000' altitude. Then they get here to Northern California (or your home at less than 3000') and the higher atmospheric pressure acts on the lower pressure in the bottle and Voila'- a "dent".

The good news, AOR is working on a solution to the issue, and many of the latest bottles are nicely rounded [thumb]. Keep in mind, it is of course purely externally cosmetic. There is no effect on the content quality.

Thank you for your kind comments. It is really important to me to exceed my Customers expectations in any way possible.

Hi Zoolander,

Apology accepted, no worries. You may notice I sponsor this forum - ergo - I bought the privilege of posting a couple times a week about my wares. I understand your concern on my post and I do strive to balance my sponsorship rights with being a good neighbor on the forums. May I suggest that a different sponsor might abuse the forum and really spam it up. I won't do that to you. I do however really appreciate feedback!

I would say you should be less wary of my opinion posts as my interests are worn publicly. As a careful consumer be concerned about anonymous posters with unknown interests touting wares.

Take care and welcome to the forums. You will raise the level of discourse, and you are a fine new contributor that we can all learn from.

Kind Regards,
Pete

Edited by psychenaut, 02 August 2005 - 02:15 AM.

[zoolander]

Pete there has been a little voice in the back of my head reprimanding me for days for being so strong. I can be a little strong about somethings and marketing is one of those things that can get me fired up some time.

I agree and believe that to a certain degree you bought the right, as sponsor of this forum, to advise people of your products. And yes it is no secret that you work for Relentless Improvement.

I also agree that you could have hidden your intentions is a more sneaky way and spam this forum with pushy sales pitches but you dont. Thank you for that.

[ozone]

@scottl

Regarding Vitamin-C, this is the article I read: http://unisci.com/st...013/0927015.htm

Leeuwenburgh attributes the damaging effects of the vitamin C and NAC to their reaction with iron in the body. Normally, iron is bound to proteins and enzymes and therefore can't react with vitamin C and NAC.

But when inflammation occurs -- as it does in muscular injuries and a variety of diseases such as Alzheimer's, arthritis and cardiovascular disease -- the body releases more free iron, which is highly reactive to outside elements -- in this case, vitamin C and NAC. Indeed, the researchers showed that there were increases in free iron following this type of exercise.

True? I'll leave that for you guys to debate, but I disagree with your conclusion that the article attempts to "smear" Vitamin-C. When someone uses the word "smear" it generally means that someone is trying to lie about or degrade a product without merit for their own personal gain. But in Vitamin-C's case, there is nothing to gain by lying about it. Vitamin-C is created by nature, thus no one can hold a patent on it. This means anyone is free to produce it. So, there is no gain in creating false claims about Vitamin-C. On the other hand, a company that holds the patent on Viagra has a reason to smear competitors marketing similar drugs. Why? Because if they can say everything else except for Viagra is bad, people will buy Viagra .

[scottl]

"I disagree with your conclusion that the article attempts to "smear" Vitamin-C."

1. This is a sensationalistic headline, designed not to convey what the asbtract is about, but for maximal emotional impact.

"Body May Rust Inside If Vitamin C Over Maximum Dose"

2. I'll leave it for the psychologists to provide an explanation of why.

3. The real issue is not the vitamin C, but the iron which is a well known pro-oxidant, and which there is no reason for adult men to take.

[eono]

Hi, first time poster after lurking - what's the skinny on the OrthoCore product, I like the mixed tocotrienols, the only other product I've seen with that is a Weil daily I take.

Btw, great forums - I was trying to get some information on R-ALA today off the web and was coming up with dismal results - the threads here are by far the most informative. Gonna start a thread soon to pick some brains

Antioxidant Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 L-Vcap
Servings per container: 30

Amount Per Serving  % Daily Value
Calories 5 
  Calories from Fat 5 
Total Fat 0.5g <1%
Vitamin A
(Caromin® as beta carotene and alpha carotene) 15000 IU 300%
  alpha carotene 1mg 
  gamma carotene 132mcg 
Vitmain E
(as d-alpha tocopherol and mixed tocopherols) 100 IU 333%
  Natural Mixed tocopherols 167mg 
  d-gamma tocopherol 80mg 
  d-alpha tocopherol 67mg 
  d-delta tocopherol 18mg 
  d-beta tocopherol 2mg 
Selenium (as Selenium Yeast) 200mcg 286%
Tocotrienols (Tocomin® Palm Tocotrienol Complex) 17mg 
  d-gamma tocotrienol 9mg 
  d-alpha tocotrienol 5mg 
  d-delta tocotrienol 2mg 
  d-beta tocotrienol 600mcg 
CoQ10 (Ubiquinone) 30mg 
Lycopene (from Lyc-O-Mato® tomato extract) 20mg 
Lutein (from Floraglo®) marigold extract 5mg 
Phytoene (from Lyc-o-Mato® tomato extract) 800mcg 
Phytofluene (from Lyc-o-Mato® tomato extract) 800mcg 
Astazanthin (from algae extract) 750mcg 
Zeaxanthin (from Floraglo® marigold extract) 300mcg 


Other Ingredients: Medium chain triglycerides, Vegetable cellulose, Beeswax

Multivitamin Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 2 Tablets
Servings per container: 30

Amount Per Serving  % Daily Value
Vitamin C (as Ester-C® calcium ascorbate) 250mg 417%
Vitamin D (as cholecalciferol) 400 IU 100%
Thiamin (as thiamin HCI) 50mg 3333%
Riboflavin 50mg 2941%
Niacin (as niacinamide) 50mg 250%
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCI) 50mg 2500%
Folic Acid (folate) 400mcg 100%
Vitamin B12 (as cobalamin) 50mcg 833%
Biotin (as d-biotin) 100mcg 33%
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium panthothenate) 50mg 500%
Calcium (as calcium citrate and Ester-C® calcium ascorbate) 60mg 6%
Iodine (from sea kelp) 260mcg 100%
Magnesium (as magnesium citrate) 30mg 8%
Zinc (as Biokey® zinc chelate) 15mg 100%
Copper (as Biokey® copper chelate) 1.5mg 75%
Manganese (as Biokey® mangense chelate) 1 50%
Chromium (as Biokey® chromium chelate) 200mcg 167%
Molybdenum (as Biokey®) molybdenum chelate) 75mcg 100%
Chloride (as potassium chloride) 1mg <1%
Potassium (as potassium chloride) 1mg <1%
Choline (as choline bitatrate) 50mg 
Inositol 50mg 
PABA 50mg 
Citrus Bioflavonoids 40mg 
Rutin 40mg 
Sulphur (as methylsulfonylmethane) 5mg 
Silicon (as silicon dioxide) 2mg 
Vanadium (as Biokey® vanadium chelate) 10mcg 

Other Ingredients: Dicalcium phosphate, Cellulose, Croscarmellose sodium, Vegetable stearine

[hallucinogen]

http://www.vitacost....id=7912&cid=124

[vastman]

zoolander,

I love sifting through shit for the jewels of life and have pretty much settled on AOR's formulations, Ortho-Core, Ortho-Mind and Ortho-Bone. Recently added their Strontium to the Bone blend. Peruse the valuminous info on why they selected the various forms and combinations for these supplements and I think you'll come away with a better appreciation of why at least Core and Mind make so much sense. It ain't cheap, but I've wasted a lot of $$$ on junk over the years and now is the time for me to invest in my health so my 4 year old daughter has a dad she can rely on into the future. Its less than my cable bill (which I recently cut off to avoid wasting so much precious time watching).

I added the Bone to the mix as at 55 years old I'm trying to make the old bod function a bit better. While LifeMirage alternates btw LEF and AOR formulations, a search of posts comparing thoughts on the two pretty much boils down to AOR is better thought out. Unfortunately that still leaves me with taking 30-50 other caps a day which still sucks!

Good luck, friend

[DukeNukem]

The NSI brand is pretty good overall, but has a few key mistakes that make it inferior to the equivalent LEF product. For example, NSI uses magnesium oxide, the cheapest, least absorbed version of magnesium. I've read that less than 10% of this form of magnesium is used by the body. Other forms of magnesium are much better absorbed, such as the kinds used by LEF.

I quickly checked out the product by Restless Improvement, and it used a better version of magnesium.

Someone else wrote that they do not like to get 1000% of certain vitamins/minerals. But the RDA recommendations are often woefully inadequate. RDA is not at all tailored to those trying to extend their life, but instead represents a minimum requirement to not fall prey to disease related deficiencies. Many, many studies show the benefits of higher dosages of many nutrients.

[hallucinogen]

What do you think about opti-men from Optimum Nutrition? It has a heck a lot of anti-oxidants in it too. And is it really better to get multi-vitamins without iron in them? I thought iron was supposed to be beneficial.

Supplement Facts:
Serving Size: 2 Tablets
Package Size: 120 Tablets
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Vitamin A(as CaroCare® natural mixed carotenoids) 7,500 IU 150%*
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) 300 mg 500%*
Vitamin D (as cholecalciferol) 200 IU 50%*
Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopherol succinate) 200 IU 667%*
Vitamin K (as phytonadione) 75 mcg 94%*
Thiamin (as thiamin hydrochloride) 30 mg 2000%*
Riboflavin 30 mg 1765%*
Niacin (as niacinamide) 30 mg 150%*
Vitamin B6(as pyridoxine hydrochloride) 30 mg 1500%*
Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%*
Vitamin B12(as cyanocobalamin) 100 mcg 1667%*
Biotin 250 mcg 83%*
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 30 mg 300%*
Calcium (as calcium carbonate, citrate) 200 mg 20%*
Iodine (as kelp) 150 mcg 100%*
Magnesium (as magnesium oxide, aspartate) 100 mg 25%*
Zinc (as zinc citrate) 30 mg 200%*
Selenium (as selenomethionine) 70 mcg 100%*
Copper (as copper gluconate) 2 mg 100%*
Manganese (as manganese gluconate) 5 mg 250%*
Chromium (as chromium GTF) 120 mcg 100%*
Molybdenum (as molybdenum A.A. chelate) 80 mcg 107%*
Raw Oyster Concentrate 50 mg †
Saw Palmetto, powdered (berries) 100 mg †
Pygeum Africanum, powdered (bark) 70 mg †
Damiana, powdered (leaf) 100 mg †
Nettles, powdered (leaf) 30 mg †
Lycopene (as LYC-O-MATO™ natural tomato lycopene) 250 mcg †
Alpha-Carotene 140 mcg †
Cryptoxanthin 34 mcg †
Zeaxanthin 28 mcg †
Lutein 250 mcg †
Alpha Lipoic Acid 25 mg †
Citrus Bioflavonoids (fruit) 70 mg †
Grape Seed Extract 25 mg †
(Vitis vinifera) (seed)
(standardized to 95% polyphenols)
Deodorized Garlic, powdered (bulb) 50 mg †
Ginkgo Biloba, powdered (leaf) 70 mg †
Korean Ginseng, powdered (root) 100 mg †
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 10 mg †
Choline (as choline bitartrate) 10 mg †
Inositol 10 mg †

[johnmk]

Iron is beneficial in low amounts. You get enough of it in your diet, probably. Most men have relatively ideal iron levels without any supplementation. Google around and see the problems associated with higher iron status. I'm not sure if such status comes solely from supplementation, but nevertheless it's still recommended to avoid iron in your multivitamin unless you're a woman who bleeds a lot in female areas.

[DukeNukem]

Optimum Nutrition, with only two pills, is entirely inadequate. Yes, it covers a lot of bases, but in near meaningless quantities.

As for iron, men should never supplement with iron. We get all we need from food. If anything, most men have FAR too much iron and either need to [1] give blood monthly to reduce iron levels, and/or [2] take IP-6 regularly (my strategy) to remove excess iron. Iron can lead to a long list of chronic health problems as we get older. It has been proposed that the single best reason women live longer than men is because they have less iron in their bodies due to menstrual bleeding.

[vastman]

Take a good look at Ortho-core (nine caps/day), compare the ingredients and read AOR's detailed explanation of why they've included what they did in their formulation... "Optimum Nutrition" ??? for a cat, maybe....