6 replies to this topic

[tjcbs]

What is the current consensus on this topic?

Reading through the forums, there seems to be a lot of heat, but not much fire.

However, I did see a few long-time posters who dismissed it as a myth, only to later warn people off of hydergine for this reason.

I looked through pubmed and I did see a few menacing sounding, foreign-language, inaccessible studies. But nothing definitive.

I'm not sure why this purported side-effect has gotten as much play as it has. Most every prescription psychotropic seems to have a laundry list of sides just as grave. But people take them happily(?) anyway.

That being said, I will likely take it for as long as it keeps working for me, regardless. It is one of the few things that helps me feel a little bit alive after an unfortunate encounter with Risperdal. If it kills me, it kills me, but but it would be nice to know that it won't.

[ScienceGuy]

My two cents:

1) I am not aware of any direct scientific evidence whatsoever supporting the THEORY that HYDERGINE significantly increases risk of developing CARDIAC FIBROSIS;

2) The only information that I am aware of relates not to HYDERGINE specifically, but to either ERGOT DERIVATIVES in general or specifically other ERGOT DERIVATIVES such as CABERGOLINE; wherein, it has been inferred that because HYDERGINE is also an ERGOT DERIVATIVE it may also to an extent suffer from the same issue. However, I must stress that there is no direct scientific evidence that substantiates this THEORY; wherein, said inference could be considered akin to taking 1 + 1 and making 12. It is a bit like taking scientific research that indicates a particular ANTIBIOTIC within the B-LACTAM family of ANTIBIOTICS is CARCINOGENIC and then inferring from that information that a different ANTIBIOTIC within the B-LACTAM family of ANTIBIOTICS might also be CARCINOGENIC or that all ANTIBIOTICS within the B-LACTAM family of ANTIBIOTICS might also be CARCINOGENIC, wherein in this example one would be entirely factually incorrect.

3) I am not aware of a single medically documented instance of anyone ever having developed CARDIAC FIBROSIS following HYDERGINE usage for prolonged periods;

4) Therefore, I believe that there is currently insufficient evidence to ascertain whether or not HYDERGINE significantly increases risk of developing CARDIAC FIBROSIS... we simply do not know one way or the other...

5) Even so, whatever risk, IF ANY, would indubitably be DOSAGE DEPENDENT; wherein, it is all about RISK and REWARD, and hence you could consider taking a lower dosage such as 1MG OD, which still provides benefits... if you are worried about the issue.

6) I take HYDERGINE every day

Edited by ScienceGuy, 25 October 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[tjcbs]

My two cents:

1) I am not aware of any direct scientific evidence whatsoever supporting the THEORY that HYDERGINE significantly increases risk of developing CARDIAC FIBROSIS;

2) The only information that I am aware of relates not to HYDERGINE specifically, but to either ERGOT DERIVATIVES in general or specifically other ERGOT DERIVATIVES such as CABERGOLINE; wherein, it has been inferred that because HYDERGINE is also an ERGOT DERIVATIVE it may also to an extent suffer from the same issue. However, I must stress that there is no direct scientific evidence that substantiates this THEORY; wherein, said inference could be considered akin to taking 1 + 1 and making 12. It is a bit like taking scientific research that indicates a particular ANTIBIOTIC within the B-LACTAM family of ANTIBIOTICS is CARCINOGENIC and then inferring from that information that a different ANTIBIOTIC within the B-LACTAM family of ANTIBIOTICS might also be CARCINOGENIC or that all ANTIBIOTICS within the B-LACTAM family of ANTIBIOTICS might also be CARCINOGENIC, wherein in this example one would be entirely factually incorrect.

3) I am not aware of a single medically documented instance of anyone ever having developed CARDIAC FIBROSIS following HYDERGINE usage for prolonged periods;

4) Therefore, I believe that there is currently insufficient evidence to ascertain whether or not HYDERGINE significantly increases risk of developing CARDIAC FIBROSIS... we simply do not know one way or the other...

5) Even so, whatever risk, IF ANY, would indubitably be DOSAGE DEPENDENT; wherein, it is all about RISK and REWARD, and hence you could consider taking a lower dosage such as 1MG OD, which still provides benefits... if you are worried about the issue.

6) I take HYDERGINE every day

Thank you. I cannot understand why there is so much fuss over what seems to be a purely theoretical concern, when so many other drugs have real, documented concerns, which people ignore because they are fairly rare.

I take 2-3 mg daily of the liquid form, still <= the US dosage. However, being the most absorbable form, I don't know how this dosage translates to tablets.

Oddly, for me only the liquid form is effective, the FAS tablets gave me horrible emotionless brain dysfunction. Generic ergoloid mesylates tablets used to work well, but these seem hard to come by now.

[ScienceGuy]

Thank you. I cannot understand why there is so much fuss over what seems to be a purely theoretical concern, when so many other drugs have real, documented concerns, which people ignore because they are fairly rare.

I take 2-3 mg daily of the liquid form, still <= the US dosage. However, being the most absorbable form, I don't know how this dosage translates to tablets.

Oddly, for me only the liquid form is effective, the FAS tablets gave me horrible emotionless brain dysfunction. Generic ergoloid mesylates tablets used to work well, but these seem hard to come by now.

For a variety of reasons the NOVARTIS HYDERGINE LIQUID is what I always recommend to people

If you are not already doing so try taking the PURE LIQUID via SUBLINGUAL ADMINISTRATION; and follow it up with a FOOD that contains FAT (as HYDERGINE is FAT SOLUBLE)... IMO this is by far the best way to take it

[medicineman]

While I was doing my endocrinology rota during my residency, the head endocrinologist (US and Canadian certified) swore that during all his years as an endo specialist, he's never seen one case of cabergoline induced fibrosis. He thinks that anti Parksinsons doses of ergots, prior to the ascent of Levo/Carbi is where all the reports of cardiac/pleural/retroperitoneal fibrosis are from

[Limburger]

I respect you tremendously, ScienceGuy, but given the absence of any data suggesting that hydergine is NOT a 5-HT2B ligand and the large number of closely related compounds with ki values indicating strong affinity with 5-HT2B, there would have to be a pretty compelling reason to take it. Since the benefits of hydergine are modest at best and the risks (until the results of binding assays are published) are serious and potentially fatal, it seems unwise to recommend using Hydergine.

[thomasanderson2]

I just stumbled upon information suggesting, paradoxically, that Hydergine is actually a 5-HT2B antagonist (and NOT a ligand) - which would indicate that the hear fibrosis risk is unfounded.

 

See here (in the context of comparing various ergot-derived drugs:

https://www.raypeatf...opic.php?t=4474

"And then there's hydergine (a similar receptor binding profile to LSD, but is a very weak (as in sub-hallucinogenic) partial agonist at the 5-HT2A receptor, with a tad more dopaminergic impact). It is also extremely potent, with doses around 250ug and it acts as a functional antagonist at the 5-HT2B receptor, so there is no risk of cardiac fibrosis [with hydergine]."

 

Anyone else have anything to share on this?

 

I'd used Hydergine about 20 years ago - and I thought it was very beneficial (for both mood and cognitive performance). In fact, I would regard it as one of the best "universal" brain health substances I've used. (I should note that I may have a tendency to hypomania, and I did experience some low-grade hypomanic / elation effects while using it together with Piracetam - and possibly some very slight hallucinagenic effects as well.)