17 replies to this topic

[BigJohn]

I notice a correlation between remembering dreams and the administration of nootropics.

A positive effect, in addition to the numerous advantageous effects on memory, is the effect on dream recall that nootropics brings.

I notice that since I have been taken my nootropic stack daily, I remember on average, 4-5 dreams vividly out of a 7 day week. Is it possible that remembering your dreams are a good indicator of a stack's efficacy? My stack is as follows:


Morning Stack:

Piracetam- 1000 mg
Oxiracetam- 800 mg
Aniracetam- 500 mg
Sulbutiamine- 200 mg
CDP Choline- 300 mg

Afternoon Stack

Piracetam- 1000 mg
Oxiracetam- 800 mg
Aniracetam- 500 mg
CDP Choline- 300 mg
Sulbutiatmine- 200 mg
Rhodiola Rosea- 400 mg

Edited by BigJohn, 11 November 2013 - 08:25 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

No, I do not think there is any reason to assume that remembering dreams is an indicator of efficacy. It would be better if you did some cognitive tests and tried to notice differences when on a stack as opposed to when not on it.

Remembering your dreams tends to be a function of your sleep distribution - your stack causes you to have more REM sleep (which is when you dream) and also sleep lighter than before. Taking rhodiola and sulbutiamine later in the day may well reduce deep sleep, which could be detrimental for your health over the long term.

If 'afternoon' means right after lunch, 200 mg sulbutiamine should be OK. However, based on my own reactions to rhodiola and those of a friend (we both experienced different degrees of insomnia when taking rhodiola regularly - in his case, it was severe) I would consider taking your rhodiola in the morning and see if that changes your sleep response - or you could experiment with a lower dose.

Or just keep going, in case you are happy with the effects of the stack on cognition.

If you have a smartphone, consider getting a sleep tracking app to document differences in sleep patterns when you change around your stack.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 11 November 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[BigJohn]

But nootropics support a better memory, and better memory would lead to increased dream recall correct? So if this logic holds true, the more you remember from your dreams, the better your stack? Also, could you elaborate on the long term safety of sulbutiamine? This is the first I have heard about that.

[andrea23]

It's the choline that let you make very vivid dreams, maybe the racetams help

http://www.world-of-...ream-pills.html

a vivid dream is easier to remember than a normal one

i had extremly vivid dreams with ~400mg of choline bitartrate

Edited by andrea23, 11 November 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

But nootropics support a better memory, and better memory would lead to increased dream recall correct? So if this logic holds true, the more you remember from your dreams, the better your stack? Also, could you elaborate on the long term safety of sulbutiamine? This is the first I have heard about that.

Better memory does not necessarily lead to better dream recall - you can have a good memory without recalling your dreams more often than somebody else. As far as I understand, it is more about sleep cycles/depth of sleep. When I have more REM sleep I have pretty good dream recall, but when I sleep deeply I tend not to recall my dreams.

I did not mean to imply that sulbutiamine is not safe over the long term, what I meant was that taking noots/supplements that affect sleep (like sulbutiamine and rhodiola) too late in the day can cause lighter/less deep sleep over the long term, and this change in sleep pattern can be detrimental.

It's normal that the effects of sulbutiamine are reduced after continuous administration though.

[Adam90]

Out of the many nootropics I tried, ironically the cheap Choline Bitartrate had the most impact on my dreams. Frequency of lucid dreams really go way up on it, especially with the higher doses.

[BigJohn]

GodOfSmallThings, it is irrefutable that nootropics do indeed help with dream recall yes? When I don't take nootropics, I'll remember one dream every week or two if I'm lucky. Remembering dreams must be a sign that nootropics are working, obviously there are other signs, but dream recall is a sign that can be qualitatively measured.

[Godof Smallthings]

They appear to make you recall your dreams much better, that much I agree with 100%, to the extent I have no reason to believe you are lying or delusional but just honestly reporting your experience.

So if by 'they work' you mean 'they have some kind of effect', then yes, we agree.

But is increased dream recall a sign that they increase your cognitive performance or memory in other respects? No, because that is still unknown - you would have to measure that independently by taking tests targeting different aspects of cognition. And to make the test really valid you'd need to introduce blinding to reduce the placebo effect, alternate between taking the tests when on the noots, and when off the noots, and also preferably take the tests in advance of the experiement, to the extent that you have plateaued and are not making progress.

If you then show clearly that when on the noots you perform better than when off them, that would be proof that is hard to ignore.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 12 November 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[polymathic]

Pretty much echoing what God of Small things is saying.

I think from what you're saying you can infer that noots increasing your dream recall is indicative of noots boosting dream recall.

If your goal was to increase dream recall then they are working perfectly.

I also think it shows;

A - They are having SOME kind of effect
B - They must be getting absorbed and utilised crossing the BBB
C - They are boosting dream recall (obviously)

From that I think you've got grounds to start investigating other aspects of cognition.

Dreams are a strange one to use as good reliable data I think, because;

1. If noots are killing your sleep, you'll simply get rebound rem later in the night (or the next day) thus having a deep deep dream. Perfect example - taking 5-htp before bed boosts dreams without being a cognitive enhancer.

2. If you frequently wake during the night you'll remember your dreams more - this is infact a lucid dreaming technique. If you awake near or during rem you'll be much more likely to recall your dream.

Edited by polymathic, 12 November 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[mrd1]

I do not think you are going to be capable of having accurate enough tests to measure the difference thresholds of different doses and cocktails and be measuring something that truly be able to make a generalization to the complex nature of all domains of intelligence.

Therefore, I think your best bet is to read as much research as possible and formulate your stack based on that empirical evidence and assuming that it probably also happens in you.

Just make sure you don't just focus on one supplement. By diversifying you can reduce your variance and nearly guarantee you'll be somewhat close to what should happen.

[BigJohn]

I just felt that remembering your dreams was like a go-to indicator of the effectiveness of a nootropic stack. Every morning I'd wake up, remembering the minute details of my dream while on my stack. When I didn't take my stack, I would barely remember any. It seemed easy measurable compared to having to wait for an exam or test to see how much I'd remember. I'll be adding pramiracetam to my stack soon, and I'll be taking out one of the racetams in my stack; not sure which one I'll be taking out though. My goal is supreme memory.

[mrd1]

BigJohn,

If your goal is supreme memory

Than,
A. Doing what is convenient because it is available and easily accessible is not going to be high enough to the standards your looking for. If you said you want "a little better memory" maybe it will be ok. But, even if it does work it will never be a better measure than ok. If you want supreme memory you need supreme data.

B. I don't feel like such a emphasis on your testing is necessary. I would search pubmed and try to find studies where the results are statistically significant and just extrapolate the findings to yourself. If you do that for alot of studies you won't deviate much from what should happen and its wayy easier and the data is infinitely better.

C. Why are you taking a racetam out of your stack? Any specific reason? Cost, side effects, concerns etc?

D. Pramiracetam is interesting, what are you trying to achieve by taking it over one that you are currently taking and are planning to discontinue?

[Sciencyst]

It's the choline that let you make very vivid dreams, maybe the racetams help

http://www.world-of-...ream-pills.html

a vivid dream is easier to remember than a normal one

i had extremly vivid dreams with ~400mg of choline bitartrate

It is one-hundred percent the choline. People use galantamine to induce lucid dreams, seeing as it is an AChEI (acetylcholine-esterase inhibitor, which increases cortical ACh).

While I was taking it, it gave me reliably intense dreams.

Native americans used tobaco to induce dream-visions.. Nicotine is an AChEI. It has been known by myself to induce interesting dreams.

Further, IIRC, increased ACh levels lead to longer and deeper REM sleep. Diphenhydramine leads to the opposite (it is an ACh-R antagonist)

[BigJohn]

Very interesting, I take about 600 mg of CDP choline a day with my stack

[mrd1]

As a rather extreme ancedote I take 2000mg of choline in the form of alpha/cdp choline and I did have a quite vivid dream. However, this is confounded by many many chemicals all with mechanisms they could of caused this via dopamine adrenaline serotonin and glutamergic signaling.

[Sciencyst]

Good point. There needs to be more research done into different new neurotransmitters/ligands and their effects on subjective dream intensity in humans.

Hmm I'm now trying to think of what else has altered my dreams, save for cholinergic substances.

The one time I went to sleep on Adderall+Alcohol I had very intense dreams, but I usually don't remember dreams on just alcohol.

Can't recall much else..

[brainstorm11]

My inclination is: No.

For your particular stack, I would agree there is probably a correlation, though. Depends on what type of stack you are looking for. If it is focus, attention, alertness, and motivation - not a good method for efficacy at all.

[BigJohn]

My stack's goal is focus and memory