25 replies to this topic

[kelka]

Hi. I've been trying to manage depression (maybe bipolar) anxiety and restless leg syndrome using various supplements. I take NAC for depression but admit I've kept it on for muscle benefits and extra oomph in my workouts. I added vitamin b complex magnesium, inositol, zinc and theanine to help with sleep and anxiety. I've decided to drop inositol as I don't feel I can afford the amount I need to take. Anyway, I do feel that I'm benefiting from better sleep and my anxiety has improved but I can still be low and very unmovtivated. I can really go for it during a workout but can't sustain energy throughout the day. My restless leg syndrome seems to be under better control and I manage sleep with the magnesium, theanine and one dihydrocodeine 30 every night.
I just don't know what to do next. My memory is very poor from life long depression and alcohol/drug abuse etc my thoughts are messy.
I've thought, in the past, to increase seratonin and dopamine but anything that messes with serotonin eg antidepressants, St Johns wort or 5htp makes me very agitated and a bit manic. the dopamine stuff increases my restless leg and makes me very irritable and angry. Taurine, tyrosine and pramipexole all make me very angry (pregabalin makes me too anxious).
I suppose the question arose because I was considering the benefits of noopept but then alarm bells rang and wondered if it might feel similar to pramipexole, tyrosine or taurine. I know theanine is supposed to raise gaba but I don't get the same response to that. Any ideas why I get that reaction, what it might mean and whether I might get the same response on noopept. Thanks.

[peterhendry]

Hi there.. you might want to try niacin.. it worked for my mum.. she was suffering from depression and taking pharmaceutical drugs.. then she switched to niacin ..cold turkey.. substituted for 1000mg 3 x daily.. she is fine now.

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[mrd1]

Have you been on the anti-depressants for at least 6-8 weeks because the agitation is normal because it agonizes the 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c receptors causing anxiety and sometimes a worsning of depression. However this results in downregulation of these receptors causing a increase of norepinephrine dopamine and a more normalized serotonin expression.

5-ht2a and 5-ht2c receptors seem to be overexpressed in the autopsied brains of people who commit suicide.

[kelka]

@peterhendry Thank you, I'll look into it. I imagine its part of my b complex but I'm not sure at what amount.
@mrd1 yes, I took them for at least 3 month, except prozac which I took for a year and had a wonderful time on, for about 6 months. I only took St Johns wort for a month but it took me 7 months to recover from what was a very uncomfortable mildly psychotic thing, Really horrible but I'm aware it could have been on the way anyway or a negative placebo but I'm not happy taking them. Also, they are a huge trigger for restless leg, which until recently, I've had for 12 hours a day triggered by sudofed. I've had that most of my life too but interestingly, hardly during pregnancy and not at all during breast feeding. This also led me to think dopamine(they think rls is dopamine related). Prolactin?


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[peterhendry]

Your B complex will have very small amounts.. but not enough. I suggest u start with lower dosage of around 250mg 3 day . Also note you will get a red flush. . Dont worry it only last about 20 mins or so.. and its normal. I think you will be happily surpised with the results.. cheers

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[kelka]

Thanks for your response. I will put it on my maybe list but I have allergic rhinitis and I think it might a aggravate it. I've had such a good year, I couldn't bare another trigger.
I've started to consider ALCAR.
Its so incredibly complicated but beautiful, I would like my memory back so I could remember what I was thinking the last time I considered ALCAR. Its exhausting.

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[Sciencyst]

Bacopa is currently working wonders for my agitation, irritability, and extreme PTSD-esque anxiety.

A few hours ago I took quite a few grams dissolved into butter, milk, and honey, and I currently feel extremely relaxed yet sort of motivated. It feels like a serotonin releaser and adrenergic receptor blocker. I feel complacent in a very welcome way. And it actually is helping me more than etizolam, which just made me blackout and destroy cars and furniture and walls.

If you do try it make sure to take it along with some sort of lipid transporter (fat/oil).

[addx]

I recommend memantine for everything

Memantine keeps bipolar under control even while being dopaminergic. I have RLS and I haven't noticed that it worsens. I have noticed that it increases "physical readyness", perception of muscle readyness and vigor and perception of pleasure from muscle movement. This is all dopaminergic.

It cuts down mania/obssesive thoughts via NDMA antagonism, but is smart, only closes the Ca+ channels when there's too much activitiy - it works on/off depending on voltage, inhibiting the too strong current and not touching the normal currents. This makes it cut mania/obssessive thoughts without cutting down normal thoughts like lithium for example.

Nicotinic receptor antagonism will not do wonders for memory but they say receptors reregulate to match, so.. you can't have it all.

It's basicly side-effect free and features no tolerance/withdrawal stuff. But is infact for alzheimers so...

[kelka]

Thanks Katusoti. Bacopa has cropped up again and again so I think I try this for a few weeks before Xmas.

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[kelka]

@addx memamtine is looking very good. I'm wondering if my gp would consider it. I'm not antidepressants so I think she might. Do you know if its available on the NHS.
Is there anything else I could get my hands on that acts by blocking NMDA-type glutamate receptors? Even mildly, just to get a feel. probably a bit naive, hmm. Thanks.

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[kelka]

Ok, read a bit about non_competitive nmda antagonists, its not that straight forward. I dont think I'll be able to get it though,

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[kelka]

thanks for your help. I have decided to start with alcar as it looks like something I should be taking. I will settle in with that and readdress the issue after a month or so. I appreciate your input.

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[addx]

Magnesium pretty much functions as an NDMA antagonist.

Taurine i think as well.

I found out about taurine because I can take red bull, but not coffee(makes me too nervous) - the difference is taurine.

But I can't really match the effects to memantine.

Memantine for me has several distinct effects. 1 - reduction of thought recursiveness and intensity this is i think partial ndma antagonism, 2 - increased sense of control readyness(musle readyness, readyness to move and control) this is i think dopamine agonism, 3 - transient slightly "off" feeling during inital tapering, a sort of a "cloud" inside head - it goes away after a day or two - this I think is nicotinic antagonism

[kelka]

thanks addx.
I read that about magnesium yesterday and decided to up it a bit and add some Epsom baths too.
I don't have a problem with caffeine but taurine makes me very angry, in the same way as pramipexole, which is a dopamine agonist. I think its mainly d2. This makes me wonder if memamtine wouldn't suit me after all. Taurine and prami also bring my mood down. This seems quite contrary to others reactions and doesn't seem to make sense.
I have noticed a more quiet, less intense mind with less recursive thoughts too. I would put that down to the magnesium so nmda makes sense.
I think I need to get a feel for what does what to me and actually sit down and pull it apart as you just have. This is the first year I've really managed any sort of insight but the more well I get the less patience I have for the next step.
Thanks.


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[kelka]

I've been getting that dopamine feeling, that I get from taurine, over the past few days and I'm going to have to put it down to theanine. I thought it might happen but thought the gaba effects creeping up slowly might make it more tolerable. Its a shame because it helps my sleep and anxiety but I'm pretty sure its making me irritable and very low. It feels different to usual depression and irritability. This is the same effect that tyrosine, pramipexole and taurine had.
Can anyone see what's happening here?

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[Guardian4981]

Kelka

The depression from low serotonin is different then low dopamine, its hard for me to describe now because its been a while since I have had either at least severely.

I have another thread I just created about kidneys.

For myself, I think my depression and mental health issues were/are related to the thryoid and kidneys, I am feeling alot better the past few weeks.

Also, I find selenium is very beneficial, whenever I stop taking it I find my depression and anxiety worsens. Selenium doesn't get me feeling great but it keeps me from feeling awful. My most recent kidney discovery so far is taking me to the next level of feeling better.

[kelka]

It does feel different doesn't it. It panicked me a bit as I have successfully "managed" my depression this year and felt I was triggering an episode. I have decided to persevere with the theanine though. It is manageable I think and it appears to be affecting dopamine (??) and helping anxiety I need to see where it goes.
My NAC supplement (or one of them) contains selenium, I will have a read up on that one thanks.
I read your thread but couldn't find ( bit busy :-) any info on what's going on with the supplement and what's active and what its doing but I'll try again later. I will follow with interest and keep my fingers crossed for you.

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[Guardian4981]

For me personally thenine gave me a headache and did not help my depression, but everyone is different.

[kelka]

I started taking theanine for anxiety, sleep and restless leg syndrome (along with magnesium). It is doing the job. I think n-acytylcysteine, no alcohol, meditation and exercise have all helped my depression and more recently the magnesium and CBT techniques. Right now the depression is mild but constant with the odd spike, and no motivation or energy. I just need to shift it a bit more.

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[Sciencyst]

I advise exercising EXTREME caution with dopaminergic NMDA antagonists. Sure they feel rather amazing while circulating your blood, but can cause nasty long term effects. At least in my experience of methoxetamine, which everybody touted as being super safe, mentally and physically. The fact is that it makes you hypermanic and full of delusions of grandeur. I felt like I was amazingly healthy and smart and all while on it but only because of the dopaminergic effects. Dopaminergic NMDA antagonists are psychotomimetic and memantine is no exception. Since I tended to use medium high doses of MXE, I do not know the supposed benefits of Low doses of such drugs first hand. They do have many pros but the cons are just too scary for me anymore.

Edited by katuskoti, 02 December 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[kelka]

Yeah, I think you're right. I've spent more time getting over the effects of anti depressants, mood stabilisers and antipsychotic than I actually benefitted from them. I need to be more patient. I would like a magic pill but don't think it's on the cards. I'll keep playing carefully.

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[kelka]

Ive been taking ALcar for a week now and yesterdays workout was weird but fun. I felt like I could have gone on indefinately but was working g very hard. It was fun to push it a bit. I always work hard when I work out but away from the gym I have nothing! I feel like I'm in this dead spot and if I push I can lift it but I can't keep pushing. I'm constantly just hanging in there. Energy isn't the problem then, its there if I want it. Sleeps good. Its so tame compared to where I've been but its a crap base line. Bit low, bit distracted, bit irritable, bit unmotivated, bit paranoid, bit anxious. I guess I'll push on to the new year but blàaah I was thinking sulbutamine.

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[Sciencyst]

Kelka, I had like the exact same symptoms, and tried sulbutiamine with very high hopes but it hasn't been as helpful as Bacopa and other things. It actually reduces dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex. This sounded not so great to me because of the fact that in schizophrenia, dopamine release is increased in all areas but the prefrontal cortex.. Of course this says nothing for its efficacy in different people and different cases. Just in my case any benefit was negligible.

But then again I never gave it a fair chance on its own. BRB, I'm gonna go dose a really large amount and update with how it makes me feel.

Edited by katuskoti, 07 December 2013 - 12:50 AM.

[kelka]

katuskoti, thanks, that's really helpful. I'll go do some reading and perhaps leave sulbutiamine til later. Negligible is better than manic though!
I was going to give bacopa a shot at some point but what other things have helped you.

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[Sciencyst]

Okay, so sulbutiamine basically made me feel lobotomised.. No emotion, just sort of drifted by. Useful for some situations, I guess. However the next day I had very bad OCD. And I guess sulbutiamine changes the density of D1 receptors, whereas in schizophrenia it's D2 receptors that are mainly altered, sorry for being a bit alarmist earlier ^^^, I just highly value caution.

katuskoti, thanks, that's really helpful. I'll go do some reading and perhaps leave sulbutiamine til later. Negligible is better than manic though!
I was going to give bacopa a shot at some point but what other things have helped you.

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Right now I am taking Uridine, AlphaGPC, DHA, sarcosine, and bacopa. It's odd- I am very anxious but also very apathetic. Anything to combat the apathy makes me anxious; anything to combat the anxiety makes me apathetic. It's like I have too much norepinephrine and not enough dopamine.

Also, just because I am cautious does not mean that sulbutiamine or memantine won't help. Memantine does sound very helpful, and it reverse stim tolerance.. and to be honest at the onset of my symptoms DXM (at doses of like 60mg) was one of the most helpful things, oddly enough. Of course that does not mean that it was good for me. It could have damaged me more in the long term.

Have you looked into MAO-B inhibitors like deprenyl? A lot people here have had success with it. Of course it depends if you want to go the full-on pharmaceutical, throwing all caution to the wind route, or the likely-to-be-safer-and-better-tolerated herbal supplement route.

If it is the former, memantine or deprenyl are going to be the strongest but also most likely to have side effects. Second to these I'd suggest racetams: piracetam, noopept, maybe aniracetam.

If it is the latter, bacopa and gotu kola is an excellent combo.

Edited by katuskoti, 09 December 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[kelka]

Thanks, I know we're all different but lacking in emotion and just drifting by are feeling I need to shake, so I'll leave sulbutiamine for a while.
I appreciated you last post, imk trying to be gentle and cautious but when you really want a magic pill, its easy to get carried away.
I have the same problem! As soon as I find something that helps with anxiety, apathy sets in. I know its complicated and I need to try some stuff and find out what suits me but I'll leave the pharmaceuticals until last. I don't know deprenyl so will read about that.
I am very tempted by the racetams. I come close, to ordering noopept before but read around and thought that piracetam looked like it could trigger mania, so I'll read up a bit more first.
I've been messed up by pharmaceuticals and herbal supplements so I realise a need of caution regardless.
I'm ordering some bacopa and maybe look into the gotu kola. I really appreciated your thoughts.

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Sorry that was badly written :-

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