22 replies to this topic

[dunbar]

Found this at another forum. Sounds kinda weird but also worrying if true.
I thought that too much glutamate is neurotoxic and that memantine is good for that.
But I didn't know that too little glutamate causes schizophrenia.
If that's true then this would be pretty damn scary. Does this mean that a person who takes
memantine as nootropic or for other reasons risks developing schizophrenia?

Without getting into a discussion on the veracity of the sources (etc.), a summary of the link:

1. Ketamine is a NMDA antagonist.
2. Magnesium is a milder NMDA antagonist. Taurine is also a NMDA antagonist. I started Magnesium Taurate 2 days ago.
3. People who take Ketamine develop schizophrenic symptoms.
4. Too much NMDA antagonism will reduce your glutaminergic activity too far.
5. Schizophrenia is hypothesised as being too much dopamine, too little glutamate or both.
6. Amphetamines give you a blast of dopamine.
7. (Implicit) Magnesium is not a type of NMDA antagonist that has no psychometric effects.
8. Memantine is.

So taking amphetamines and magnesium at the same time can reduce your glutaminergic function and increase your dopamine. This corresponds with both hypotheses of schizophrenia causality.

[formergenius]

I'm no expert, but in theory the answer is yes; NMDA antagonists could produce psychotic symptoms, and are often used as a model for schizophrenia in animal testing.
Also consider that Memantine is an antagonist at the a7nAChRs as well.
Then again, it's dependent on a lot of things, like dosage etc.
I wouldn't combine two psychotomimetic substances though (amps + nmda antagonists). I know it's frequently done, but it sounds like asking for trouble to me.

[Olon]

Someone with an increased genetic risk for schizophrenia won't benefit from memantine and will stop using it after one dose.

[dunbar]

Damn, this isn't good. I was actually thinking about trying memantine. But now I'm scared.
I thought that too much glutamate is bad so I was thinking maybe taking memantine would help against being upset by everything
and now I read that lowering glutatame is also bad. Awesome.

Can stims like ritalin also cause schizophrenia?

Edited by dunbar, 11 January 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

It all differs per individual if a certain drug can aggravate symptoms.

There are cases where Memantine or Ritalin helps schizophrenics. For me personally I can't tolerate any stims, Ritalin made my mind race uncontrollably, half glass of beer made me hallucinate on Ritalin. However, Modafinil also made my mind race, after many glasses of beer I didn't hallucinate, I wasn't even able to get drunk on Modafinil

It's trial and error m8

btw. Vyvanse and Memantine has been trialed very well as an adjunct to anti-psychotics, have look into that.

Another btw. drugs don't cause Schizophrenia, it (may) only act as a trigger of becoming psychotic and develop schizophrenia.

Edited by YoungS, 11 January 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

If you are not schizophrenic you shouldn't worry at all trying Mema or Rita, you don't become instantly schizophrenic, schizophrenia develops (if you are genetically susceptible off course), over a long psychotic period of time. Even if you were schizophrenic and these drug aggravate your symptoms, it will go away once the drug has worn off.

Edited by YoungS, 11 January 2014 - 02:40 PM.

[Kompota]

Memantine is a partial, voltage-dependant NMDA-receptor antagonist. So it is quite different from the "heavy artillery" full antagonists like Ketamine and Dextramethorphan, which indeed could potentially cause great problems with dissociative (and other) effects .

[dunbar]

Hi,
is schizophrenia the same as psychosis?

I just worry. I mean I already have depression. What if I get on a drug and then suddenly I get even more issues?
Having a lot of stress and all that is probably also not good for the brain. That's why I thought that maybe trying memantine to reduce
glutamate could be worth a try. But I'm also not sure if I have excessive glutamate. I just assumed that I could have it due to having very much stress.
I am also not very resistant to stress. I notice that often times I become irritated and agitated very easily and I also prefer to be alone as much as possible
cause having people around disturbs me. I simply have too much stress to cope with.
Things which wouldn't throw off other people, like bad news or worrying news, totally upset me and then my mind starts to race.

Edited by dunbar, 11 January 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

No, someone can get a psychosis once in his/her life, fully recover and never have it again (you can compare a psychosis with a bad trip on street drugs, start to hallucinate, become delusional etc. but with a real psychosis "the bad trip" persists even when you are sober again). You have schizophrenia if your psychotic symptoms persist while getting treated and you do not fully recover after the first psychosis with 2 years anti-psychotic treatment and/or if you get multiple psychosises in your life.

Damn, you sound like me and the way you cope with stress hehe, though, that doesn't mean you are prone to become schizophrenic. I think your issue is more of having anxiety/depression, I take 30mg Mirtazapine which for a great deal stopped my racing thoughts for somewhat the same reasons you have. I also take 1,5mg Rivotril a day for anxiety and as a antipsychotic.

I would advise against getting on Ritalin if you have racing thoughts, it's quite possible your racing thought will get worse (my racing thoughts got very worse on Ritalin, but again, until it ware off). It's not like if you take 1 Ritalin and all of a sudden your brain gets permanently haywired. Memantine however, didn't take it and don't know about what it does for depression but there are some cases where it reversed psychosis, just take it under supervision if you are worried and still plan on taking it. (Listen to your body when taking off-label drugs, most of the drugs I tried I threw away when my symptoms got worse on the first pill).

Stress is the biggest bitch, other than 5 days a week sports, don't have a weapon against it either!

[dunbar]

@ youngS

Do you have schizophrenia? I heard that a psychosis is always serious cause it's permanent while a neurosis isn't. I don't know the distinctions between all these terms.

I have been on mirta. It didn't help against depression, only made me tired. I don't think it helped against racing thoughts either. My doc said that these racing thoughts are basically
anxiety but I don't know if that's the case. I also get this inner restlessness or over-excitedness when I go to a store and they have all kinds of things which interest me. In this case it's
not triggered by anxiety.
But I don't like this feeling. I can sit in a chair and appear calm but in my mind I know that I'm not calm. It's not even really racing thoughts. It's hard to describe. I don't have 100s of thoughts
in my mind but I simply feel upset and not at rest. I have no clarity of mind in these situations. That's why I often have to get outside especially when it's dark. This helps me clear my mind
and get rid of the tension which builds up. Sometimes I also jack off this also helps a bit with the tension. I really don't know what this is but it sucks. I dont think that this is normal or that others
also have it.

[YoungSchizo]

Schizo-affective is my diagnoses, at least, something like that (Yes, schizophrenia is permanent that's why it's serious)

Your symptoms sounds like akathisia which I developed after 8 years of antipsychotic treatment. Like you I was constantly tense and agitated, jacking was a little temporary solution, for me quitting caffeine (or any other stimulant) and using Sarcosine together with Mirta did the trick to stop "pacing". I still feel that way sometimes, though, Mirtazapine & Clonazepam gets rid off it.

I think you should search for a calming medication and/or supplement, anti-depressant/Benzo's/Magnesium/L-Theanine/Sarcosine/Glycine etc. may help (in theory).

[nubiensunset]

Dunbar: Why do you think you have depression?

[dunbar]

@ nubien

Weird question. When you're depressed you know it!

@ youngs

Is sarcosine a supplement? The problem is my psychiatrists probably doesn't know much about supplements nor does he use them.
And mixing supplements with antidepressants can also be dangerous. On my own I don't know what's safe and what isn't safe.
I'd be scared of taking an antidepressant and then add a supplement like theanine or glycine. I mean who knows what could happen then?

[YoungSchizo]

Yes, psychiatrist suck at addressing the importance of vitamins/supps. Since a couple of years psychiatry has made a u turn about the benefits it can have, they are finally collecting knowledge of it's importance.

Sarcosine is found in chicken eggs etc
Glycine is the most abundant substance in the human body
Theanine is an anti-oxidant found in thea

These are all natural substances.

You should be scared about the chemicals ppl are taking on this forum, but natural substances can't do much harm, even when you are on anti-depressant. Information and use of these substances are widely discussed on this forum and elsewhere on the WWW (you are quite active on this forum are you new at this section of longecity forum?)

[dunbar]

Hi,
I registered a few weeks ago.

Does natural automatically mean that it's safe to mix with antidepressants? I think 5-htp can also be extracted from banana peels and 5-htp cant be taken with a ssri.

[YoungSchizo]

Sort of yes, though, take in account that some things do interact with medications in a negative way. For example, if you use a bloodthinner as medication you should not take (large amounts of) Ginkgo (Ginkgo is already a natural bloodthinner).

You should research the substances (study's, papers, forums, dosages for the condition you want to take it, interactions with medications, possible side-effects).

The things I mentioned are non-toxic, even in large amounts and will not interact with any medications. You give a good example, SSRI with 5-htp is not a good idea, at least, for my condition it's not. Don't know if SSRI, 5-htp and depression is a good idea.. Isn't 5-htp a natural antidepressant that works on Serotonin receptors and therefore may interact with SSRI's? (If so, it can go two ways, a negative or positive interaction, I think eventually it will cause a negative interaction)

Did you have a look into symptoms of Akathisia?

[dunbar]

Hello,
I dont know if it's a good idea to selfmedicate. I looked into inositol for example and then also came across scary reports from people who took it and then got worse.
I mean what do I do if I try a supp against depression/anxiety and then end up worse? Then not even a doctor is of help cause he doesnt know much about these supps.
I am so discouraged. I dont dare to simply try supplements. When you take an antidepressants you can at least read about the interactions and possible side effects.

[YoungSchizo]

It's up to you m8, I ain't forcing you

I think it is important to address your symptoms in detail (like you did here) to your psychiatrist. If he/she doesn't do shit to improve your symptoms then you can maybe consider going to someone who does know about supps/vitamins, a Orthomolecular Therapist.

Good luck!

[dunbar]

Hi,
my psychiatrist will simply suggest a new antidepressant. I dont even have time to talk about all my symptoms. Usually he has like 10-15 minutes and then he looks at his watch
and shows me that it's time to end this. I am not happy with it but other psychiatrists are also busy. They don't have time to sit down and then go over everything like with a therapist.

I dont really know an orthomolecular doctor. My concern is that such a doctor would simply do expensive lab tests with me, measure vitamins and then try to sell me all kinds of expensive
supplements. I think many doctors jump on the orthmolecular bandwagon simply to make money.

[hathor]

well i know people who have had psychotic breaks from high doses of dextromethorphan. but i seriously doubt that it causes schizo. i have schizo~affective (bipolar type) and i self medicate depression with DXM since i don't like or trust SSRI's. it seems to help with schizo symptoms at doses 100mg or lower, rather than making things worse. i also have had great success with adderall killing hallucinations and racing thoughts, which is the opposite of what the doctors seem to think happens.

what causes the worst schizo symptoms for me seems to be caffeine-induced sleep deprivation. i also get schizo when faced with too much stress. IME cannabis is more likely to induce psychosis than dxm or k or nitrous or mxe or whatever. nmda stuff generally just calms me down and chills me out and kills off overwhelming depression...i can be completely suicidal and 60mg of dxm or a couple breaths of nitrous will chill me out and take away whatever is stressing me out. and like i said schizo is mostly stress~related for me.

[dunbar]

Hello, can you define getting schizo? What happens when you get schizo?

And isnt self-medicating with dxm also dangerous? How do you even get this?

I'd be too scared of self-medication with rx drugs.

[hathor]

I do stuff like pour water on things and take baths in wishing wells, basically I start thinking of human form as ridiculous and wishing I was a conscious water molecule. Lower level schizo is stuff like having the voice of a dead person yacking constantly in my head or having racing thoughts.

Euro has different laws and stuff, but here in US I can buy a bottle of cough syrup or cough gels that contains dxm at my local dollar store. I've been able to buy bulk powder before but it seems nobody is selling it anymore so I don't bother with the powder anymore although I could probably find it if I was motivated, but I'm lazy about stuff, if it's too hard I don't bother.

I don't self medicate with rx drugs, they seem pretty dangerous if you don't have a doctor's care.

I do stuff like pour water on things and take baths in wishing wells, basically I start thinking of human form as ridiculous and wishing I was a conscious water molecule. Lower level schizo is stuff like having the voice of a dead person yacking constantly in my head or having racing thoughts.

Euro has different laws and stuff, but here in US I can buy a bottle of cough syrup or cough gels that contains dxm at my local dollar store. I've been able to buy bulk powder before but it seems nobody is selling it anymore so I don't bother with the powder anymore although I could probably find it if I was motivated, but I'm lazy about stuff, if it's too hard I don't bother.

I don't self medicate with rx drugs, they seem pretty dangerous if you don't have a doctor's care.

[dunbar]

This sounds bizarre. If this is what schizo is then I'm definitely not schizo.

I dont know if I could get a cough syrup with dxm. But I'm sure this stuff also has a lot of warnings and risks right?
I mean are you even allowed to take this with your condtion?