27 replies to this topic

[Nana86]

Hi everybody!

Since I had some troubles when taking even small amounts of Vitamin D (2.000 IE) daily, even though I am deficient, I started taking Vitamin K2 in the form of MK-7 around two weeks ago. When taking 100mcg daily I just have some slight side effects from taking Vitamin D3 (light joint pain). I am also taking Vitamin A (6.000 I.E. daily) for a week now since I am deficient and am okay with that.

But now I have a hughe problem concerning my teeth! Normally they´re almost white, my gums are in a good condition and I don´t have any plaque on them. But NOW they´re turning a bit yellow and if I forget to brush them in the evening in the morning my gums are not rose colored but full of white covering. When I brush my teeth the covering disapears, but I´ve noticed that my gums are very sensitive right now. In addition to that the first time in my life I got some plaque at a teeth!!! (it´s really hard and I can hardly remove it)

Has anyone of you guys made an experience like that? Of course I will stop taking MK-7 now, but without it I can´t stand the troubles Vitamin D/A are causing.

I hope anybody of you guys might have a good idea :(

Yours

Nana

[Nana86]

Oh, I forgot to mention that I was taking Vitamin D from July 2013 up to the beginning of January 2014 and I always had severe joint pain, nausea etc. when taking it. My doctor told me to continue no matter what side-effects I got. Then around the 10th of January I started taking K2 and stopped Vitamin D3.​..I don´t know if there´d be a disbalance between D3/K2/ Vit A or if I got another problem... :(

[hav]

I'm pretty sure K2 is minimizing plaque formation on my teeth. Before I started using it I could brush and floss my teeth before going to bed, and still remove a very noticeable amount of soft overnight buildup when I flossed again first thing in the morning. Since using K2, flossing in the morning yields almost nothing. And my teeth feel just as clean as they did when I went to sleep. But there is a trap. If your teeth feel great, you might be tempted to slack off brushing. If you succumb to that you will still be just as prone to tooth decay, discoloration, and other oral hygiene related issues. You'll just have all those problems with less plaque.

Howard

[Nana86]

Hi Howard, thanks for your answer

Which form of K2 are you taking? And do you take any additional supplements?

My teeth were really okay before...even when I forgot to brush them in the evening I didn´t really have any plaque the next morning and they were white (but of course normally I don´t forget brushing them :-p).

Hmm...I probably have had issues with calcium in the wrong places for a long time already, since I had some stones in my salivary gland at the age of 20 and also four of my back teeth are already root canal treated.
Looking back I have realized that I rarely have eaten foods containing Vitamin K2...now I change it, but things seem to get worse (although I don´t have any more troubles when taking Vit A&D)...so confusing. :(

[mustardseed41]

Less plaque and 2 cavities are now gone. K2 (mk7) has been nothing short of a miracle for me. Along with co-factors such as magnesium, D3

[Nana86]

@mustardseed41, thanks for your answer
Something I must be doing wrong
What cofactors did you take besides Mg and D3? And how much D3 did you take?!

Maybe my Vit A and MK-7 ratio is just wrong...aah...I don´t know

I forgot...how long time did it take for you until your teeth got better?!

[1kgcoffee]

It is normal and healthy for teeth to have a green or yellow tinge. It's a protective shield made up of proteins, called a 'pellicle' and is the first step in healing teeth. Don't think of it as a bad thing, don't brush excessively or with hard bristles and do not use abrasive toothpastes.

I would drop the vitamin A as it is correlated with certain cancers. If it's retinol form it will make your teeth brittle.

[Nana86]

@1kgcoffee, oh, I didn´t know that! But will that yellow tone remove after a while? And what about that white layer on my gum?! I can easily brush it away, but after a short time it´ll be there again (which I´ve not had ever before).

By the way, I´m taking retinyl palmitate. Since I´m hypothyroid and got some stomach issues my body cannot convert carotinoids to Vitamin A. In addition to that my food doesn´t contain any Vitamin A so that I am deficient in it now. I´m also taking some other supplements (supervised by a doctor) and my bowel problems got already a bit better. I hope that I don´t have to take any more supplements in the future when my digestion is normal again

[balance]

This is very similar to a tan. Universally people find that you look more attractive with a tan. However the truth is that tan is dead skin and sunning directly hyper ages our skin. This means that the ultra pale health nut who looks like he's got AIDS because he's calorie restricting and never comes in the sun is actually healthy, but we much prefer the buffed up ultra muscular (with dangerously low body fat) bodybuilder who has a tan.. With teeth same thing, people want this movie actor ultra white almost eye blinding white teeth, not realizing that from all that whitening you damage the enamel etc. Natural healthy teeth will be slightly yellow, so your issues above may actually be a good sign. Not sure about the sensitive gums though.

I would definitely not take so much retinol, limit max daily intake from all sources to 3000iu.

[Nana86]

@piet3r, I haven´t seen it that way...that let´s me calm down a bit
Though I´m still confused about my gums and the extra plaque I got...

I know that the daily recommended intake of Vitamin A is 3000IE. But since I´m deficient (I can rarely see in the dark and I got many other symptoms of high deficiency) I am afraid 3.000IE might not be enough. I was planning to take 6.000 IE for around a month and then cut back to normal. I also read that intakes up to 10.000IE a day over a longer period of time should be okay (I think that´s officially the upper tolerable intake level). Could you tell me why I should not take the above mentioned amount of Vitamin A daily?

It´s really a tough topic so I am really thankful for any hint or info

[bestbefore]

Vitamin A (retinol) isn't toxic when you have enough vitamin D in your body. That's why I would take Cod liver oil, which naturally contains both of these nutrients.

http://chriskresser....pplement-wisely

[1kgcoffee]

There was a study several years ago showing that high levels of retinol are correlated to higher rates of cancer, even with lots of vitamin D. Are you 100% sure it's vitamin A deficiency? What you describe could be an early sign of diabetes or zinc deficiency. It might be better to take fat soluble carotenoids like astaxanthin and lutein for eyesight, instead of retinol

[1kgcoffee]

@1kgcoffee, oh, I didn´t know that! But will that yellow tone remove after a while? And what about that white layer on my gum?! I can easily brush it away, but after a short time it´ll be there again (which I´ve not had ever before).

Alright, so this is not a diagnosis or medical advice (!) but sounds like you could have underlying gum disease? Could be related to diabetes or prediabetes and the other problems you've been experiencing with vision. Maybe you have issues with your immune system or circulation. You could have deficiencies besides vitamin A. The mouth is one of the easier ways to guage a persons general health, since all systems in the body are connected, problems will often show up there early. You need to do more investigating.

[dankis]

@Nana86 If you suspect vitamin A deficiency then, you could just simply take loading dose for example 2x 150 000 UI of retinol(not carotene) with fatty meal, 2 days between the dosages and see if it helps. If your vitamin D is adequate, liver and kidneys are healthy, it is really hard to overdose on retinol.
You would need to take more than 100 000 ui of retinol per day for many months or years to achieve the true vitamin A toxicity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14668278

Water-miscible, emulsified, and solid forms of retinol supplements are more toxic than oil-based preparations.

(..)Chronic hypervitaminosis A is induced after daily doses of 2 mg retinol/kg in oil-based preparations for many months or years.

2mg of retinol is equivalent to 6660 UI. For 70 kg human it will be about 450 000 ui/d of retinol for many months.

[onyomi]

My teeth became yellower for a bit about a month after I first took MK4. I had a lot of other bad symptoms. They got better when I stopped taking it.

[Luminosity]

There's discussions about different types of vitamin K on this site if you do searches. It just might end up being something that doesn't agree with you.

[Godof Smallthings]

MK7 from Jarrow together with 2-3.000 IU vitamin D per day has had nothing but positive effects for me. My teeth seemed to gain strength and become more hard and smooth, and the plaque on them more brittle - a piece of plaque even came off on its own.

I have continued with Life Extension's mix of MK4 and MK7 to see if if I notice any difference between the two.

[Nana86]

Thanks for your replies, everybody!

@1kgcoffee, to be honest I have had a mitochondriopathia (=very low ATP-levels) because of high nitric oxide levels in my body and have had many severe vitamin/ mineral deficiencies because of that. In the past six months I almost have cured (with the help of my doc) that sickness and I have almost no more deficiencies now.
Because I also had low Vitamin D levels my doctor prescribed a Vitamin D3 supplement to me. But I got severe joint pain from it, nausea etc. When I asked him he couldn´t believe somebody´d have problems taking Vitamin D. Some weeks ago I found out this might be because of a lack of Vitamin K2. Since I started taking MK-7 I have almost no more problems when taking Vit D. In the context of my underlying disease Vitamin A deficiency is very possible and I´m relying on a Vit A supplement, because my body cannot convert carotenes at this stage. But thanks a lot for your help so far though!

@dankis, since I got that mitochondriopathia I still got some nutritional imbalaces in my body so I think I will go the safe and slow way

@onyomi, I´m sorry to hear that. Have you taken any other supplements exept for MK-4 at that time?

@Luminosity, what do you mean?

@GodofSmallthings, have you taken any additional supplements to MK-7 and Vitamin D? And how much Vit K2 were you taking daily? And is there any noticable difference for you between just taking MK-7 and taking MK-7+MK-4?!

Thanks a lot again!

Yours

Nana

[Godof Smallthings]

Hi Nana,

I took 1 of Jarrow's 90 mcg MK7 pills daily, together with the 2.000-3.000 IU vitamin D.

Other supplements I took during the same period:
Lion's Mane (Mushroom Wisdom) 4 tabs daily
Reishi extract (Natural Way) 1-2 caps once daily, with vitamin C
L-theanine 200 mg (Jarrow) (whenever I drank coffee, which was 2-3 times per week)

NOW Foods N-Acetyl-Cysteine + Theracurmin - once daily for 7 days consecutively, none during the rest of the period.

As far as I know, none of the others ought to have any major effects on dental health, but who knows...

I think it is still too early to talk about any differences between Jarrow's MK7 and LEF's 'Super K with Advanced K Complex' as it has been less than a week.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 26 January 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[onyomi]

Thanks for your replies, everybody!

@1kgcoffee, to be honest I have had a mitochondriopathia (=very low ATP-levels) because of high nitric oxide levels in my body and have had many severe vitamin/ mineral deficiencies because of that. In the past six months I almost have cured (with the help of my doc) that sickness and I have almost no more deficiencies now.
Because I also had low Vitamin D levels my doctor prescribed a Vitamin D3 supplement to me. But I got severe joint pain from it, nausea etc. When I asked him he couldn´t believe somebody´d have problems taking Vitamin D. Some weeks ago I found out this might be because of a lack of Vitamin K2. Since I started taking MK-7 I have almost no more problems when taking Vit D. In the context of my underlying disease Vitamin A deficiency is very possible and I´m relying on a Vit A supplement, because my body cannot convert carotenes at this stage. But thanks a lot for your help so far though!

@dankis, since I got that mitochondriopathia I still got some nutritional imbalaces in my body so I think I will go the safe and slow way

@onyomi, I´m sorry to hear that. Have you taken any other supplements exept for MK-4 at that time?

@Luminosity, what do you mean?

@GodofSmallthings, have you taken any additional supplements to MK-7 and Vitamin D? And how much Vit K2 were you taking daily? And is there any noticable difference for you between just taking MK-7 and taking MK-7+MK-4?!

Thanks a lot again!

Yours

Nana

Hi Nana,

You can read more about my experiences with K2 in this thread: http://www.longecity...-to-vitamin-k2/

I'm curious about the mitochondropathy because I believe I might also have high nitric oxide. How was this diagnosed and treated?

I also have the problem with vitamin D causing me stomach cramps and a feeling of being tense. K2 did seem to help, but I don't dare take it anymore due to side effects described in the other thread.

It's very frustrating: I have found a ton of people online complaining of cramps from vitamin D or heart palpitations with K2, both of which I have, but when you ask a doctor, they seem to think you're crazy--vitamin D just couldn't do that, they seem to think. It's especially frustrating to me because this reaction of mine to D seems to be acquired. I used to be able to take it with no noticeable reaction whatsoever, and now, for some reason, I just can't.

I'm almost getting to the point where I just forget about it, as it almost seems like my well-being and vitamin D levels are inversely correlated. Recently I was happy because I had switched to opening the D capsules and rubbing it into the skin, as was suggested as a solution to stomach cramps. This seemed not to bother me and I was using 3,000 IUs a day this way, and also feeling calmer and sleeping better lately. Then, my doctor tests my D levels, and they're even lower than before! I guess it probably wasn't absorbing much through the skin, after all. Today I take a pill orally, and stomach cramps again. Moreover, when I thought I was feeling better due to being able to take more D, it seems my D was actually getting lower! I also tend to be more anxious and depressed in summer than in winter--a kind of reverse SAD, so there's that, too.

Edited by onyomi, 26 January 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[hav]

Hi Howard, thanks for your answer

Which form of K2 are you taking? And do you take any additional supplements?

I take the LEF product daily which is mostly mk7, together with 500 mg chelated albion magnesium glycinate and 2000 iu d3 in olive oil. My d25 oh levels have been running around 37. My wife has osteoporosis and in addition to fosamax, takes the same LEF K2 daily, plus 15 mg mk4 k2 2x daily, 500 mg magnesium 2x daily, 5000 iu d3 daily, and LEF 3mg boron daily. Her d25 oh levels now measure around 35; she has only been on the D3/K2/Mag/Boron regimen about 2 years and her most recent bone density is still below normal but after a 6 mo fosamax timeout measured better than it was 5 years ago.

Howard

[dankis]

@hav
Is your wife taking calcium? What is her protein intake? Protein is very important for bone density. Also why she wouldn't try to increase her 25(OH) to ~80 ng . It should greatly increase bone anabolism.

[hav]

@hav
Is your wife taking calcium? What is her protein intake? Protein is very important for bone density. Also why she wouldn't try to increase her 25(OH) to ~80 ng . It should greatly increase bone anabolism.

Yes, but as part of a balanced diet as opposed to through supplementation. Studies are divided on whether a D25(OH) target of 80 is necessary. In her case she has turned the tide and experienced a significant improvement at D levels which seem to support the efficacy of a more moderate strategy. Not sure what a reasonable minimum bone density reevaluation period might be but I think insurance will cover retesting again in about 3 years while continuing to monitor D levels annually.

Howard

[dankis]

D3 inhibits PTH and stimulate bone anabolism in dose dependend manner. Higher doses would probably quicken mineralisation unless there are other deficiencies present.
Howard, I wish your wife good luck with recovering from osteoporosis.

[hallucinogen]

Maximum HEALTHY Dosage of Vitamin D hovers around 400 IU a Day, more will just cause more side-effects, we usually get far less without supplementation even from a healthy diet rich in Vitamin D foods,

Vitamin D Will usually make you tired, and in people on strict diets who have everything balanced out on the edge, is able to cause heart palpitations, it releases HGH and serotonin, both of which affect vein and capillary walls, making them more flexible, more fluid, feeling younger effect, but that usually results in drop in blood pressure and your body having hard time trying to sustain a normal blood pressure, often putting more stress on your heart, especially if your artery and veins aren't clean and clear... Supplemental Vitamin D Results in Diminished Blood Circulation overall, making it less effect, extending recovery times, and making your joints and muscles feel more sore then usual,
all in all, that's why I never supplement it additionally during winter months, besides drinking homemade Goat buttermilk ! and of course trying to stay in the Sun during Summer

Your eye-sight issues are very unlikely to be tied to Vitamin A deficiency ALONE, but is a combination of things, try adding Astaxanthing in your diet, and still juice at least 1 carrot, 1/2 medium beet, 1/2 granny smith apple, and then blending that juice with half of golden delicious apple, 2 very red tomatoes, and a teaspoon of Avocado Oil to aid in carotenoid absorption, even if you don't think that you can convert into Vitamin A yourself efficiently, still drink this juice/smoothie at least 2x a day
Also, eat lightly steamed Sweet Potatoes(4-5mins) during day, and Butternut Squash, they contain an even more important carotenoid, Beta Carotene

Do not supplement more than 900 mcg RAE of Vitamin A a day (1 IU retinol = 0.3 mcg RAE), it's one of the most toxic things you can do


Vitamin K2 helps to Shuttle the Calcium in your body, seeing more "Calcium deposits" on your teeth is quite natural and is part of regeneration process, just limit your Calcium intake, get it from just greens and perhaps a glass or 2 of buttermilk a day,
Brush and wash mouth with a very dilute sodium bicarbonate solution only, just enough to make your toothbrush glide easy, and of course floss often etc, you're enamel should rebuild in not time now !

Slightly yellow tint to teeth is actually Natural and is sign of Strong teeth built with Calcium, instead of Other minerals which have affinity to compete for Calcium binding sites, such as Fluoride, and make your teeth whiter, more transparent, and more brittle

Enjoy

[hav]

Vitamin D Will usually make you tired, and in people on strict diets who have everything balanced out on the edge, is able to cause heart palpitations, it releases HGH and serotonin, both of which affect vein and capillary walls, making them more flexible, more fluid, feeling younger effect, but that usually results in drop in blood pressure and your body having hard time trying to sustain a normal blood pressure, often putting more stress on your heart, especially if your artery and veins aren't clean and clear... Supplemental Vitamin D Results in Diminished Blood Circulation overall, making it less effect, extending recovery times, and making your joints and muscles feel more sore then usual,
all in all, that's why I never supplement it additionally during winter months, besides drinking homemade Goat buttermilk ! and of course trying to stay in the Sun during Summer

I've noticed the tiring effect from D3 but not the drop in BP which would be welcome since mine's high. The reason I take D3 is because I was having muscle pain and cramping issues before taking it and I found it made me feel better, not worse. I was eating a banana a day before that to help control the cramping issues but found D3 more effective. Which is consistent with the research showing vitamin D deficiency correlates to increased muscle pain, not supplementing with D3. Here's a pretty well annotated article on the subject:

Sports Health Benefits of Vitamin D (also see: full-text)

There is strong correlation between vitamin D sufficiency and optimal muscle function. Increasing levels of vitamin D reduce inflammation, pain, and myopathy while increasing muscle protein synthesis, ATP concentration, strength, jump height, jump velocity, jump power, exercise capacity, and physical performance. 25(OH)D levels above 40 ng/mL are required for fracture prevention, including stress fractures. Optimal musculoskeletal benefits occur at 25(OH)D levels above the current definition of sufficiency (> 30 ng/mL) with no reported sports health benefits above 50 ng/mL.

The D25(OH) levels recommended above are a little higher than I go for. But I'm not an athlete. I was thinking of bumping up my dosage during the winter but I didn't see my D25(OH) levels change any when I was testing twice a year.

Howard

Edited by hav, 26 January 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[onyomi]

My personal theory on the vitamin D problems is that it increases dopamine by increasing tyrosine hydroxylase, and maybe also conversion of dopamine to norepinephrine via dopamine beta hydroxylase. For some people these could be welcome changes, but for nervous people prone to insomnia and anhedonia like me, it's bad.

[onyomi]

What I want to figure out is what, if any, effect K2 has collagen and endothelial cells. All my problems with K2 came from what I perceived as a kind of "flabbiness" it induced in my tissues--blood vessels, skin, and even eyes. It caused my blood vessels to stand out like varicose veins, gave me postural hypotension like the blood vessels weren't "tight," made my skin look older and looser, and caused a hole in my retina (people with connective tissue disorders like Ehlers-Danlos are more prone to this sort of thing).

My only thought is that because I didn't take it in a more natural form, like natto, which would have included the clot-busting component, nattokinase, my body produced some fibrinolytic compounds in response to excessive clotting brought on by the K. Those fibrinolytic compounds might have broken down my skin, endothelium, etc.

The alternate, thought not necessarily mutually exclusive explanation I can think of relates to nitric oxide. Apparently K2 can increase nitric oxide, which increases vasodillation, and can have some effects on the eyes as well. No idea how that would effect the skin, though. That's why I'm especially interested in Nana's comments on nitric oxide.