25 replies to this topic

[TSX TypeR]

Hi guys,

So, I did a test run of New Star Nootropic's Aniracetam at one dose of 700mg (no choline) with my multivitamin from Melaleuca and fish oil. Within the first few hours, I can note that I lost all my positive emotions and I became ultra-cynical. During the time that the Aniracetam should have been loosing its effect, I went into a very deep, dark depression for the next ~20hrs. Now I have been depressed before but this sort of depression was some very shit.

I was wondering whether or not anyone could provide me with some insight on what may have happened.

Also a few more questions:

- I'm tempted to stay away from Aniracetam altogether, however, I recently tried brand name Piracetam (Nootropil) and had different positive effects than that of the New Star Piracetam, could that mean that if I try Ampamet (name brand Aniracetem) I may have some good effects this time instead of only bad ones like with the New Star variety?

- Should I have used a Choline source?

- I took the Aniracetam a week after I stopped having positive effects from Piracetam (was on Piracetam for 3 weeks), maybe I should retry at a different time? (That depression was very scary though, don't want relive it)

Again, insight would be greatly appreciated!

[BrainFrost]

Hmm, does not sound like aniracetam at all. If you dump it in water, does it dissolve?

[TSX TypeR]

It doesn't dissolve (some appears to float on the surface). It also clumps in the container. This is the stuff in the attachment.

Edit: Added photo

Attached Files

•  P2030614.jpg   78.32KB   77 downloads

Edited by TSX TypeR, 03 February 2014 - 03:02 AM.

[Pablo77]

Racetams may cause depression due to excess cholinergic activity. Euphoria is a well know side effect of anticholinergics and drugs that enchance choline do the opposite..
Choline sources may make this depression worse.

Recommend lowering the dosage of aniracetam and using only occasionally(1-2 x per week) when especially needed for learning new information or skills.

Edited by Pablo77, 03 February 2014 - 03:05 AM.

[TSX TypeR]

Racetams may cause depression due to excess cholinergic activity. Euphoria is a well know side effect of anticholinergics and drugs that enchance choline do the opposite..
Choline sources may make this depression worse.

Recommend lowering the dosage of aniracetam and using only occasionally(1-2 x per week) when especially needed for learning new information or skills.

So, racetams aren't known to use up choline?
I also used piracetam (up to 2500mg) and it made me feel absolutely fantastic (the worst effect was fatigue) while it was working and I rarely used any Alpha GPC. When I take a choline source by itself it never causes depression for me.

If racetams may cause depression, why did the Aniracetam have to opposite effect of the Piracetam?

[Pablo77]

unknown.

Racetam mechanism of action is not fully known.

It is possible that piracetam was mostly placebo effect since it is less potent than aniracetam.
When taking aniracetam you felt the negative effects of excess choline stimulation.

Either way, lower doses used infrequently would solve the problem.

I recommend an anticholinergic allergy medication taken immediately to clear up any depression you are feeling.

[TSX TypeR]

unknown.

Racetam mechanism of action is not fully known.

It is possible that piracetam was mostly placebo effect since it is less potent than aniracetam.
When taking aniracetam you felt the negative effects of excess choline stimulation.

Either way, lower doses used infrequently would solve the problem.

I recommend an anticholinergic allergy medication taken immediately to clear up any depression you are feeling.

Noted. I'll probably try that when I'm not in classes.

Does anyone think I should stay with the New Star bulk powder stuff or should I go straight to the Ampamet name brand tablets? By going for the top notch pharmaceutical grade stuff shouldn't I get Aniracetam's pure effect (just in case the New Star stuff is tainted)?

Edited by TSX TypeR, 03 February 2014 - 04:01 AM.

[bzyb]

I know New Star just got aniracetam, but as a vendor they're pretty solid, so I doubt its with the aniracetam. People react to different things so we have to experiment with dosages and different supplements. So yeah maybe try less ani, or more/less choline, different kind of choline sources. Also too much fish oil can also make you feel different. Try to keep a log I would say. And if you feel a bit depressed, try l-trytophan it usually does the job and then make you feel ready for a nap as well!

[Avila]

Aniracetam makes me depressed during the come down phase too. Piracetam has never had that effect on me, and I've been taking it in varying dosages consistently for about a year now. The depression I get from Aniracetam occurs some 6 to 8 hours after I've taken it. At times it's been pretty intense too, so I stopped using it about 3 months ago. Noopept also has that effect on me at doses higher than about 30mg a day. And, I get depression from choline supplementation too. Though it usually takes 3 or 4 days of using it before I notice the depression.


I've come to believe that it's just like Pablo77 said, "excess cholinergic activity." I think my natural state is highly cholinergic.

I really like Aniracetam before the depression sets in. If I could find a safe and reliable way to counteract excess acetylcholine on the comedown, I would use Aniracetam regularly. I don't think any of the racetams "use up" acetylcholine. I think they simply enhance or modulate the cholinergic system. Taking Piracetam or any of the other racetams alongside Aniracetam doesn't seem to help with the depression.

Anyone have any ideas about combatting such depression?

[Kimer Med]

From personal experience, I suspect that racetams are more dopamine releasing/depleting that is commonly recognized. I say this because as they're wearing off, they can badly aggrevate my restless legs -- the treatment for which is a dopamine agonist (enhancer).

Dopamine depletion could easily cause depression.

As an experiment, you could try taking 350 to 1050 mg of acetyl-L-tyrosine (the amino acid precursor for dopamine) along with the racetam, and see if it helps.

[TSX TypeR]

I know New Star just got aniracetam, but as a vendor they're pretty solid, so I doubt its with the aniracetam. People react to different things so we have to experiment with dosages and different supplements. So yeah maybe try less ani, or more/less choline, different kind of choline sources. Also too much fish oil can also make you feel different. Try to keep a log I would say. And if you feel a bit depressed, try l-trytophan it usually does the job and then make you feel ready for a nap as well!

I brought that up because I tried Nootropil within days of using New Star Piracetam and had less negative effects from the Nootropil.

Aniracetam makes me depressed during the come down phase too. Piracetam has never had that effect on me, and I've been taking it in varying dosages consistently for about a year now. The depression I get from Aniracetam occurs some 6 to 8 hours after I've taken it. At times it's been pretty intense too, so I stopped using it about 3 months ago.... And, I get depression from choline supplementation too. Though it usually takes 3 or 4 days of using it before I notice the depression....

...I really like Aniracetam before the depression sets in. If I could find a safe and reliable way to counteract excess acetylcholine on the comedown, I would use Aniracetam regularly. I don't think any of the racetams "use up" acetylcholine. I think they simply enhance or modulate the cholinergic system. Taking Piracetam or any of the other racetams alongside Aniracetam doesn't seem to help with the depression...

During my months of searching the internet, this is the first time that I have seen someone else have the same reaction from Aniracetam as I have (while having a good time with Piracetam). Yet, I have never noticed any depression from Choline sources (also I've never used choline supplements for more than 3 days in a row). What kinds of choline supplements have you used, if you don't mind my asking?

I've used Alpha-GPC, Citicoline, Acetylcholine Arginate (all from Jarrow), and New Star's Centrophenoxine. I never go over one dose per day if i use them (I use them rarely).

I've come to believe that it's just like Pablo77 said, "excess cholinergic activity." I think my natural state is highly cholinergic.

I suspect I may also be highly cholinergic also. Why are so many people supplementing with choline in the first place (besides for the racetam headaches I never seem to get from Piracetam or Aniracetam)? Is everyone else actually that low on choline naturally?

From personal experience, I suspect that racetams are more dopamine releasing/depleting that is commonly recognized. I say this because as they're wearing off, they can badly aggrevate my restless legs -- the treatment for which is a dopamine agonist (enhancer).

Dopamine depletion could easily cause depression.

As an experiment, you could try taking 350 to 1050 mg of acetyl-L-tyrosine (the amino acid precursor for dopamine) along with the racetam, and see if it helps.

This seems like a notable point for me, because when I was exercising (a known way to increase dopamine) more often the Piracetam seemed to work much better. However,Tyrosine (from the Vitamin Shoppe) doesn't agree with me. Maybe someone knows a different dopamine supplement (for when I can't exercise)?

[Kimer Med]

This seems like a notable point for me, because when I was exercising (a known way to increase dopamine) more often the Piracetam seemed to work much better. However,Tyrosine (from the Vitamin Shoppe) doesn't agree with me. Maybe someone knows a different dopamine supplement (for when I can't exercise)?

Do you mean plain tyrosine? Or have you tried the acetyl-L-tyrosine version (there's one made by Jarrow, for example, available at iherb).

The plain version doesn't agree with me, but the acetyl works fine as long as I don't take too much. You can also take it with a meal to soften the effect slightly (it competes with other amino acids, so you won't absorb as much as if you take it on an empty stomach).

You can also try phenylalanine. It's one step back from tyrosine in the biochemical synthesis pathway.

[tritium]

At first, I noticed a significant mood uplifting feeling for the first few days of taking NSN aniracetam. About a week later, I started feeling the depression you describe, which I don't remember getting from other brands of aniracetam a few years ago. I'm thinking of trying another brand and see if the results are better.

[TSX TypeR]

This seems like a notable point for me, because when I was exercising (a known way to increase dopamine) more often the Piracetam seemed to work much better. However,Tyrosine (from the Vitamin Shoppe) doesn't agree with me. Maybe someone knows a different dopamine supplement (for when I can't exercise)?

Do you mean plain tyrosine? Or have you tried the acetyl-L-tyrosine version (there's one made by Jarrow, for example, available at iherb).

The plain version doesn't agree with me, but the acetyl works fine as long as I don't take too much. You can also take it with a meal to soften the effect slightly (it competes with other amino acids, so you won't absorb as much as if you take it on an empty stomach).

You can also try phenylalanine. It's one step back from tyrosine in the biochemical synthesis pathway.

I'm sorry, it wasn't Vitamin Shoppe tyrosine (they don't even make that), it was actually Jarrow's N-Acetyl Tyrosine bought from the Vitamin Shoppe (According to my receipt). My mistake.

So, I hope you weren't talking about this acetyl-L-tyrosine version-
http://www.vitaminsh...33#.UvAR37TDW3c

I'll run right out and get some L-Phenylalanine tonight.

At first, I noticed a significant mood uplifting feeling for the first few days of taking NSN aniracetam. About a week later, I started feeling the depression you describe, which I don't remember getting from other brands of aniracetam a few years ago. I'm thinking of trying another brand and see if the results are better.

Maybe, you could try the name brand stuff from here (if you think it's a brand thing)?
http://www.biogenesi...?products_id=13

edit:spelling

Edited by TSX TypeR, 03 February 2014 - 10:26 PM.

[Kimer Med]

I'm sorry, it wasn't Vitamin Shoppe tyrosine (they don't even make that), it was actually Jarrow's N-Acetyl Tyrosine bought from the Vitamin Shoppe (According to my receipt). My mistake.

So, I hope you weren't talking about this acetyl-L-tyrosine version-
http://www.vitaminsh...33#.UvAR37TDW3c

Yep, that's the one (although the packaging looks different now; red instead of yellow).

I'll run right out and get some L-Phenylalanine tonight.

The L- version would be the most potent. Some people tolerate the DL- version a little better. I don't think D-phenylalanine is metabolised into tyrosine, but it has other benefits, such as providing pain relief.

If this doesn't work for you, there are also medication options, such as low-dose Selegiline. Avoid L-Dopa. It's the closest precursor, but has a reputation for very nasty side-effects after just a short time (persistant muscle twitching, and so on).

Also, if you're taking any prescription meds, watch out for dopamine antagonists, such as Reglan (metoclopramide) and other anti-nausea meds. Many antidepressants and most stimulants also act on dopamine.

In my experience, all of the dopamine-related nutrients and meds can be very quirky from one person to another. It's such a key neurotransmitter, too much or too little can be very disruptive.

[Avila]

What kinds of choline supplements have you used, if you don't mind my asking?

Mostly CDP Choline (Jarrow) and Jarrow Neuro Optimizer which contains CDP Choline as well as Phosphatidylcholine. Also choline bitartrate to a lesser degree. I've never tried Alpha GPC or Centrophenoxine. I use Acetyl L-Carnitine from time to time but it's never caused any depression or symptoms of excess acetylcholine.

L-Tyrosine is inconsistent for me. Most of the time it doesn't do anything, but on the few occasions that I have had an effect it's felt kind of jittery like too much caffeine. I haven't used more than 500mg at a time though. I'm very cautious with anything stimulating because I get heart palpitations and anxiety pretty easily. On the other hand, I don't find L-Phenylalanine stimulating at all. In fact it feels a bit relaxing although very very subtle.

Can anyone reference data describing the relationship between the cholinergic and domaminergic systems? I get the impression that there's some inverse relationship between the two but I'm sure it's much much more complex than that.

[nells]

I'm sorry, it wasn't Vitamin Shoppe tyrosine (they don't even make that), it was actually Jarrow's N-Acetyl Tyrosine bought from the Vitamin Shoppe (According to my receipt). My mistake.

So, I hope you weren't talking about this acetyl-L-tyrosine version-
http://www.vitaminsh...33#.UvAR37TDW3c

Yep, that's the one (although the packaging looks different now; red instead of yellow).

I'll run right out and get some L-Phenylalanine tonight.

The L- version would be the most potent. Some people tolerate the DL- version a little better. I don't think D-phenylalanine is metabolised into tyrosine, but it has other benefits, such as providing pain relief.

If this doesn't work for you, there are also medication options, such as low-dose Selegiline. Avoid L-Dopa. It's the closest precursor, but has a reputation for very nasty side-effects after just a short time (persistant muscle twitching, and so on).

Also, if you're taking any prescription meds, watch out for dopamine antagonists, such as Reglan (metoclopramide) and other anti-nausea meds. Many antidepressants and most stimulants also act on dopamine.

In my experience, all of the dopamine-related nutrients and meds can be very quirky from one person to another. It's such a key neurotransmitter, too much or too little can be very disruptive.

I agree didn't tolerate the L version at all.

[Flex]

Hey OP, could you please explain the Depression more precisely.
There are different kinds of Depression like melancholic or nonmelancholic.

Could You please tell what did You feel and so on.
Beause then it could be easier to find out the cause e.g dopamine depletion and/or brain areal like striatum

[Avila]

For me, the depression I get from Aniracetam is more nonmelancholic, sort of anhedonic with an edge of anxiety. I'm much more likely to worry about things during Aniracetam induced depression. It's definitely an uncomfortable type of depression compared to melancholic. I actually don't mind a little occasional melancholy.

Depression from Aniracetam doesn't linger very long though. It's usually totally gone the next day.

[TSX TypeR]

Hey OP, could you please explain the Depression more precisely.
There are different kinds of Depression like melancholic or nonmelancholic.

Could You please tell what did You feel and so on.
Beause then it could be easier to find out the cause e.g dopamine depletion and/or brain areal like striatum

My depression only lasted about ~24 hours. It started when I realized that the Aniracetam took away my conscience (I purposely didn't text one of my friends back, which is something I would never do and if I did I would feel very bad about it, instead I felt nothing). The next day it included a particularly dark period which was induced by worrying about something I normally wouldn't worry about to that extent. That last part seems to be a little similar to Avila's experience in this way.

Can anyone reference data describing the relationship between the cholinergic and domaminergic systems? I get the impression that there's some inverse relationship between the two but I'm sure it's much much more complex than that.

This isn't reference material but it's as close as I got. It seemed notable that this webpage is mirroring your impression.

Depression can be a result of depleted dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin caused by high acetylcholine levels.

It came from this page.
How to Use & Understand the Side Effects of Piracetam

http://peaknootropic...m-side-effects/

[MrKappa]

There was a period where I was getting distinct closed eye visuals and aniracetam obliterated them. Interpret how you will.

[Avila]

There was a period where I was getting distinct closed eye visuals and aniracetam obliterated them. Interpret how you will.

Closed eye visuals from what?

[MrKappa]

Closed eye visuals from what?

I honestly don't know. I got sick about 2 years ago, and my mental health took a nose dive of sorts. Okay I had a seizure shortly following the death of a cat which I attempted to nurse back to health. That in combination with extreme stress and mental deterioration led me on a path towards nutrition and health. Was having closed eyed visuals before I attempted nutritional stacks, so I can't exactly pin it on that, however, yeah some vitamins do exacerbate the condition. So... it could be any reason.

All I know, is that when I took aniracteam I noticed a return to normal.

Here is one theory for you, enjoy... I am no chemist or neuro-biologist, yet...

http://www.hindawi.c...em/2013/250381/

Apart from having significant structural features in many naturally occurring bioactive natural products, these ring systems can act as versatile intermediates towards the synthesis of more complex medicinally important compounds such as aniracetam, doxapram, cotinine, clausenamide, lactacystin, detoxine, and codonopsinine. These compounds have received much attention lately due to their diverse medicinal properties such as antibacterial, antibiotics, antitumor, and cytotoxic effects.

So... maybe I killed healthy cells and that stopped the visuals? Maybe I killed some bacteria and that stopped the visuals?

There is way too much to figure out to know with certainty.

Maybe OP is upsetting his "flora"... so yeah, it's anybodies guess...

Edited by MrKappa, 14 February 2014 - 08:51 PM.

[Flex]

Be carefull not to mess up with Aniracetam, especially from untrustworthly sellers.
Please consider that the depression which disappears after a day, could be also a Synaptic reorganisation/compensation than a acute depletion of Neurotransmitters.

I really dont want to spread panic or something, but this happened to me:

I took Ethlyphenidate for a few Months. After a while I got depressed from that stuff with syptoms of a "blackhole" in the chest accompanied with cognitive/Intelligence decline and concetration, memory, strong anhedonia + lack of emphaty.
This went to baseline after 1 hour. I thought that this was just a depletion of dopamine and keept going, but just made some more breaks.

So, if You believe it or not, one day it got perresistent and this was about 1 Year ago !
I´m feeling better now, but I´m still not back to the baseline mood, I´ve once had.
I still have mood swings especially form drinking coffeine.

I assume that my Dopamine storage is damaged in the striatum/caudate (maybe due a precondition as well !?). And the best possible explanation is a decrease in Vmat2 due Synaptic damage which causes a leackage of Neurotransmitters So hence the moodswings during the day.

Nowadays I try to fix the issues with Ashwagandha, Uridine, Cerebrolysin etc.

Edited by Flex, 16 February 2014 - 02:57 PM.

[bzyb]

well aniracetam was one of the first noots I bought, have been using it more often in the last week and finally see that perhaps it is inconsistent for me. It provides a good boost at times, but seems like short lasting. And then as an anxioyltic it seems to be calming, but sometimes anxious at the same time. And its inconsistent in the stacks, like with noopept it did not seem to help much, and from what I recall with piracetam it boosted mood, but perhaps not made me feel as I would expect. I've also begun feeling a bit depressed a couple hours after taking aniracetam (w/ multivitamin, fish oil) without choline, so yeah I may shelve this and experiment more with other things that are more consistent.

Heck perhaps I should just try choline with it, but about to shelve it and use it sparingly. I agree with the poster above and I think I'm going to go back and try more of the uridine combo because consistency is what I'm most looking for now.

Edited by bzyb, 18 February 2014 - 12:41 AM.

[TSX TypeR]

I have re-attacked a new workout routine and Aniracetam for the second time with only positive (almost recreational) side effects this time. Here is what is different about this time.

 

I used (per day):

Xtend Life Multi

http://www.xtend-lif...nce_Unisex.aspx

750-900mg Aniracetam (New Star)

300 Alpha-GPC (Jarrow)

 

Leading up to this I took:

Xtend Life Multi

http://www.xtend-lif...nce_Unisex.aspx

800mg of Nootropil

300 Alpha-GPC (Jarrow)

Horny Goat Weed (Vitamin Shoppe) containing:

• 500mg Horny Goat Weed extract
• 250mg Maca extract
• 33.3mg Mucuna Pruriens (L-Dopa) extract
• 25mg Polypodium Vulgare extract

I suspect that It may be something in the Vitamin Shoppe combo and/or the addition of Choline (as Alpha-GPC) that is responsible for the good effects (in the beginning). Even though the L-Dopa was against AceNZ's recommendation, I think he still may be on to something (also Byzb and Flex) with the dopamine supplementation. It appears that both Uridine (I have this as Citicholine) and Ashwagandha also increase dopamine. However, within the past few days I've noticed a massive drop off in the effects of Aniracetam.

Edited by TSX TypeR, 30 April 2014 - 12:13 PM.