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Substitute for Benzo ?

benzo racing thoughts

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#1 neuve

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:01 PM


hello guys,

i'm suffering from high anxiety issue as well dysphoria and racing thoughts, i have tried many antidepressant and there was one that seemed to work nice (escitalopram) until it gave me tinnitus and some earing loss, now i can't take most of psych meds because they worsen my tinnitus
i'm stuck and don't know what to do
the only thing that is working great for those symptoms are benzodiazepines, they almost instantly calm me down, uplift my mood, stop the racing thoughts and give me motivation and some energy but the problem is that it has been more than 1 year that i'm taking them and now the side effects outweight their positive effects because now i have terrible memory,extremely pronounced cognitive impairement and that is even worse when i'm on them, i become very dumb
still i can not function in everyday life without them, when i take them i can go to the gym, cook, go out, do something productive ...
right now i take an antipsychotic named cyamemazine it is an antagonist of 5-HT(2C) and 5-HT(3) receptors with low affinity for dopamine,by the way it's a great medication for benzo withtdrawal and bromazepam but tend to use etizolam because it's way better

is there any alternative to benzo that doesn't cause cognitive impairment ?
i have thought about opiates but i will have to get them illegaly and they are very expensive
i'm very deseperate right now i want to move on with life but this shit is holding me up
plus i'm probably going to school in the near future so can't stand to have cognitive impairment anymore
so what can i do ?

#2 Sciencyst

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:11 AM

Taurine, magnesium, GABA (as a supplement), Picamilon, oleamide, l-theanine are all excellent non-stupidity-inducing calmatives.

Phenibut may also be mentioned, however it causes massive cognitive impairment.
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#3 nowayout

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 02:13 PM

Amitriptylene at lower doses (25-50 mg) is a great anxiolytic.

Hydroxyzine or even OTC antihistamines.

Buspirone.

Edited by nowayout, 15 February 2014 - 02:15 PM.


#4 datrat

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:29 PM

This probably isn't the greatest option, but if escitalopram worked well for you do you think you could adjust to the tinnitus and hearing loss? I say this because I've had tinnitus in my right ear, with some hearing loss for years, don't even know when it started, but the only time I even think about it now is when someone else mentions that they have it. If I focus on it, it does become very annoying, a constant, high-pitched buzzing sound. I have no idea how I've been able to ignore it, but somehow I do. If there was a way for me to compare my tinnitus to yours I might agree that oh yeah yours is far worse than mine and I wouldn't want yours. But without that, considering the drugs you've been taking in place of escitalopram and their potential dangers, do you think you could learn to live with tinnitus?

#5 tunt01

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:15 PM

If you search around, the supplement with the highest referral rate for individuals going through benzo withdrawal appears to be Bacopa. I'm not sure it can address your specific issue of cognitive impairment per se, but it appears to calm anxieties and aid benzo withdrawal.

#6 Sciencyst

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:26 PM

This probably isn't the greatest option, but if escitalopram worked well for you do you think you could adjust to the tinnitus and hearing loss? I say this because I've had tinnitus in my right ear, with some hearing loss for years, don't even know when it started, but the only time I even think about it now is when someone else mentions that they have it. If I focus on it, it does become very annoying, a constant, high-pitched buzzing sound. I have no idea how I've been able to ignore it, but somehow I do. If there was a way for me to compare my tinnitus to yours I might agree that oh yeah yours is far worse than mine and I wouldn't want yours. But without that, considering the drugs you've been taking in place of escitalopram and their potential dangers, do you think you could learn to live with tinnitus?

I'm a proponent of not going on SSRIs for conditions other than crippling depression, and in those cases only for short periods of time. Escitalopram does not have direct effects on GABA receptors, and obviously takes weeks to notice anxiolytic effects, so I'd say it's a rather poor substitute for benzos.

If you search around, the supplement with the highest referral rate for individuals going through benzo withdrawal appears to be Bacopa. I'm not sure it can address your specific issue of cognitive impairment per se, but it appears to calm anxieties and aid benzo withdrawal.

I highly recommend bacopa!

#7 _alex_

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:53 PM

I'm a past benzo user and very experienced in this field. I have since trying out many man made drugs radically changed my views and of the medical field and I'm not a firm believer of some of the suggestions above and most modern medications for anxiety. They simply only treat short term and introduce changes in your brain functioning that will worsen you in the long run. What we want is options that you can take long term with little side effects who does not change your neurological functioning but only conditions it.

I recommend a combo of theanine, ashwagandha and bacopa. They work great in synergy as well. Good luck!
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#8 Dinvestor

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 03:05 PM

Alex:

I like your combo suggestion. Do you get all three in one supplement or do you get them all separately?

#9 nowayout

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:35 PM

Buspirone can be taken long term without significant side effects in most people.

#10 Olon

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:08 AM

Personally I realized a stupidification with theanine I didn't have with picamilon. But one of them with bacopa could be a good combo.

#11 _alex_

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:15 PM

Alex:

I like your combo suggestion. Do you get all three in one supplement or do you get them all separately?


I get them separately. I like the Himalaya brands for Ashwagandha and Bacopa and the NOW Foods 200mg Theanine with Inositol (Inositol, which they say is great for social anxiety). I take 1 of each in the morning, another 200mg Theanine after lunch and then 1 of each again before dinner. It has helped my GAD so much and made me feel like a regular person again.

The best part is that both Theanine and Bacopa upregulates GABA over time, so they will repair you from the damage benzo can cause you and also help you heal your anxiety. Some people think Ashwagandha is hurtful for anxiety when used often but I don't agree. It's to good of a herb for threating stress and anxiety and should not be overlooked, it's great for general health and personally I have never noticed much difference after stopping it other then I miss the way it de-stresses me. If you have anxiety you often suffer from poor adrenals as well and Ashwagandha is simply one of the best herbals for that.

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask :)

Alex:

I like your combo suggestion. Do you get all three in one supplement or do you get them all separately?


I get them separately. I like the Himalaya brands for Ashwagandha and Bacopa and the NOW Foods 200mg Theanine with Inositol (Inositol, which they say is great for social anxiety). I take 1 of each in the morning, another 200mg Theanine after lunch and then 1 of each again before dinner. It has helped my GAD so much and made me feel like a regular person again.

The best part is that both Theanine and Bacopa upregulates GABA over time, so they will repair you from the damage benzo can cause you and also help you heal your anxiety. Some people think Ashwagandha is hurtful for anxiety when used often but I don't agree. It's to good of a herb for threating stress and anxiety and should not be overlooked, it's great for general health and personally I have never noticed much difference after stopping it other then I miss the way it de-stresses me. If you have anxiety you often suffer from poor adrenals as well and Ashwagandha is simply one of the best herbals for that.

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask :)

#12 Dinvestor

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:29 PM

Thanks Alex. I'm going to try something somewhat similar because I am so susceptible to migraines and have to be careful with anything that vasodilates, which Ash does. I'm going to try:

1. Taurine 1,000mg twice a day
2. Lysine 500mg twice a day
3. Theanine 200mg twice a day
4. Ubiquinol 100mg once a day
5. Ash...KSM-66 15mg twice a day

This was somewhat similar to another posters stack that he's used to eliminate his migraines and improved his anxiety issues. We'll see how this works and how much I have to play with dosages, etc.
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#13 _alex_

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:44 PM

Thanks Alex. I'm going to try something somewhat similar because I am so susceptible to migraines and have to be careful with anything that vasodilates, which Ash does. I'm going to try:

1. Taurine 1,000mg twice a day
2. Lysine 500mg twice a day
3. Theanine 200mg twice a day
4. Ubiquinol 100mg once a day
5. Ash...KSM-66 15mg twice a day

This was somewhat similar to another posters stack that he's used to eliminate his migraines and improved his anxiety issues. We'll see how this works and how much I have to play with dosages, etc.


Looks good, I highly recommend you try a bit of bacopa at some point as well if you haven't. Goes really well with Ash.

#14 eilee66

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:02 PM

I am trying to wean myself from Klonipon for sleep and Etizolam was recommended. I'm curious what people think of it's safety and toxicity?

I have tried many types of "alternative" agents and nothing has worked. I've been on this drug on and off for 22 years.

 

Also wondering what dosage people would recommend?  I take 1.5 grams of klonipon so I'm not sure how exactly I would go about  weaning  myself from that and with what dosage.

 

Thanks!  



#15 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 12:23 AM

I can't stress how bad benzos are. I had my own stint with benozs when I ran out of ativan and had these violent muscle twitches/contractions at the base of my neck and back and legs. This torture lasted around three days. 


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#16 eilee66

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 01:42 PM

I know that, which is why I'm looking for some advice and suggestions (not just horror stories, as they only up my anxiety!). Weaning from benzos are very tricky, whch is why I am wondering about anyone's experience with Etizolam in this regard? Or anything else...I can't just stop cold turkey, but can slowly add on something while simultaneously reducing the Klonipon.

 



#17 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 02:17 PM

I know that, which is why I'm looking for some advice and suggestions (not just horror stories, as they only up my anxiety!). Weaning from benzos are very tricky, whch is why I am wondering about anyone's experience with Etizolam in this regard? Or anything else...I can't just stop cold turkey, but can slowly add on something while simultaneously reducing the Klonipon.

 

Add bacopa and use phenibut as needed. Etizolam should just be for panic attacks if they happen. 



#18 Major Legend

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 03:44 PM

anyone tried kava kava>



#19 Kompota

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 07:05 PM

A proper taper off Klonopin + introduction of a NMDA-antagonist, in order to prevent possible glutamate overdrive, since I believe the hard "excitotoxicity"-hit experienced in early withdrawal may be responsible for prolonging the healing process and going into protracted. Speaking of a NMDA-antagonist, it should be something stronger than Magnesium of course. There are some anecdotal reports that Memantine may be the Holy Grail for various substance withdrawal, at least by "cushioning" the initial hit. It is neuroprotective and at the same time seems to help normalize glutamergic receptor function.



#20 chemicalambrosia

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:30 PM

Kompota, did you ever hear or come across people using Gabapentin for benzo withdrawal? I saw it mentioned once. There are studies on it for alcohol withdrawal.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23780805

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24549170

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17073851

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18052562



#21 eilee66

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:33 PM

Interesting! I take Gabapentin to help me sleep through the night, but it doesn't seem to help me get to sleep. 



#22 protoject

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 12:35 AM

Many users here are mentioning Bacopa. My experience with Bacopa is that it doesn't help me with anxiety issues. However, if you are dealing with your anxiety using the benzos and find that your cognitive capacity has gone down the drain, personally I did find Bacopa helped me with that. Subjectively anyway...

 

Also in terms of benzos... I have found etizolam [cue the "it's not a benzo! it's a theinodiazepine!" crowd. Yes- we know] to be the easiest to taper off of. (if you have control of the dosage in  small increments, i.e. 0.25 mg, and a plentiful supply). But, I don't have a lot of benzo experience.

 

 



#23 Duchykins

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 08:47 PM

Your tinnitus is a very important symptom that is being overlooked here. I guarantee you it is related to your other issues. Since you have already experienced some hearing loss, if you do nothing about your tinnitus your hearing will likely continue to deteriorate, and it could be permanent depending on what's causing the ear ringing. And if you address the ear ringing you will help with other things as a plus. I'm dealing with a similar situation here and I've done oodles and oodles of reading recently trying to piece this together for myself.

First, the relationship between GABA and tinnitus. Ear ringing is a very common symptom of benzo withdrawal, as well as anything that is leaving you with low production or downregulated GABA. This can happen even *while* taking something GABAergic, if you've been taking it long enough that it downregulated your GABA and causes anxiety episodes.

Second, the relationship between electrolytes and tinnitus. Ear ringing is common with electrolye imbalances, especially low potassium and low magnesium. Low potassium and/or low magnesium are also strongly associated with anxiety, insomnia, RLS-type symptoms, palpitations, irritability, low energy, sound hypersensitivity, changes in vision, etc. I can always notice now on an hourly basis if I need some potassium and magnesium (and GABA) because my ear ringing becomes pronounced and my eyes start feeling dry, and I start feeling irritated over little things, especially sounds. Taurine helps keep magnesium and potassium inside the cell, as well as assist in GABA production. Having lower magnesium means increased potassium loss. You need magnesium and potassium for your whole GABA system. Slow down caffeine, slow down nicotine, stop alcohol, watch things that have general stimulant and diuretic effects, or anything else that increases magnesium, potassium loss. Electrolyte imbalance, particularly with lowered potassium, are one of the things that makes benzo and opiate/opiod withdrawal so incredibly bad and long lasting.

You can begin to get a general concept of the complex interrelationship here. I strongly recommend you do a lot of reading about tinnitus in conjunction with anxiety and other mental issues, and then in conjunction with nutrition, you owe it to yourself and it's unlikely that a prescription will help with it because there isn't too much pharma interest in treating tinnitus or understanding its causes, which means less study about it. And for the love of all that's holy, please do not gve yourself large doses of supplemental potassium in one sitting if you've decided to try that route. See how you feel just by eating high potassium/low sodium foods. Daily potassium intake recommendations vary from 3 grams to 4.7 grams, most over the counter supplements have tiny amounts of potassium per dose so it can be cheaper and healthier to try foods first.

I've been prescribed benzos in the past but never took them for more than a week because I found the side effects on my intellect unacceptable, and I was unwilling to deal with potential benzo addiction. I do use ambien which is close to a benzo but since beginning my supplements I've found I can skip some nights and still sleep well.


My GABA support is

(all on empty stomach)

theanine; 100mg morning, 100mg bedtime

taurine; in 1/8 tsp increments, spread out during the day and always for bed, never more than 2 g in 24 hours, less if eating meat that day.

(taking a temporary break from lysine due to an unrelated renal concern, but lysine is very good for GABA and serotonin support, would take 500mg in the morning, 500 at night)

beta alanine; in 1/8 tsp increments, 1 to 3 times a day, less if eating meat that day

calcium/magnesium citrate; a 1:1 ratio (some may prefer a 2:1, I don't) in 1/4 tsp increments

potassium bitartrate (cream of tartar); 1 tsp contains ~490-500mg potassium, taken in 1/8 tsp

potassium chloride (as salt substitute); sparingly in food

(I used to use potassium citrate instead of the two above but I stopped because I was needing to take a lot of pills a day just to get 500mg, which is not a lot, and I prefer powders anyway so I can put it all into one drink)

n-acetylcysteine; 200mg twice daily

bacopa at bedtime



Random, irregular use: picamilon, ashwagandha, sulbutiamine, glutamine, nefiracetam (surprise!), B vitamins, D3, zinc, experimentation with magnesium sulfate (epsom salt)


It looks like a lot when written out like that, but doing the math with my doses and without taking a multivitamin daily it's not really a lot.

Note that I have a concurrent kidney issue precipitated by ibuprofen use that requires electrolyte monitoring for the time being, but what made it possible was long before that, for years, I had a crappy migraine-avoidance high carb diet that left me with low magnesium, low potassium, low taurine and it made all my problems worse including tinnitus, insomnia, racing thoughts, irritable-anxiety, sound sensitivity, general body aches (ergo the useless benzo and antidepressant prescriptions). I had slightly less migraines but other problems worsening almost made it not worth it. Almost.

Special note: gingko is a mild GABA modulator, some people dealing with low GABA or benzo withdrawal may get worse with gingko, others feel that it helps restore normal GABA or balance their GABA stacks

Talk to your doctor about any of this before experimenting on yourself. Good luck. :)

Edited by Duchykins, 25 May 2014 - 08:54 PM.

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#24 thevaughny

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 11:59 PM

Could someone please pm me with a reputable etiz source? Assuming it's allowed. Thanks.

#25 _alex_

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 04:46 AM

So I wrote some private messages to another member here and figure I can post some of the stuff I wrote so more people can gain from it. Sorry if it's a bit confusing at points since I will only post my parts and some stuff is edited out for privacy:

 

 

Etizolam is a benzo analog without much worldwide medical use to this date, I suggest to skip that. Even though it appears safer then benzo's it will still mess with your GABA levels over time, mess with sleep because of reduction of REM sleep etc. Phenibut is a russian researched chemical which is as bad as benzo if not more, skip that also. There no point in changing one bad habit for another. Generally I prefer a natural approach to health if possible because modern drugs often treat symptoms, but don't solve the real issue and causes even more. I'm sure all can agree with that when it comes to benzos.

 

Like I've mentioned before, Bacopa and Theanine, great for long term repair of GABA receptors and for anxiety. They also improve other areas as well which is a nice plus. Kava kava is nice, relaxing and great alternative to alcohol, you have to stop alcohol for awhile if you wanna get of your benzos because they work on the same receptors in the brain and will prolong withdrawal. Try Kava for sleep and see if it works. Ashwagandha works on dopamine and GABA among other things, I really like this herb and it is helpful for sleep if your have high evening cortisol, try that before bed as well. Holy Basil also lowers cortisol and helps with depression. Magnesium is good if you are tense in muscles and helps some people with sleep. GABA as an amino acid supplement is good also but if you take to much it can cause anxiety, so take small doses (like 100mg) a couple of times a day instead of one big dose. 

 

Another great one is 5-HTP for emotional support and sleep. You have to be careful though if you take other medications, so make sure you read up on interactions.

 

I suggest Bacopa in the morning, Theanine x 3 a day (100-200mg whatever you feel works), GABA x 3-4 day (100mg), Magnesium at bedtime along with 100mg 5-HTP. If you find yourself waking up in the middle of the night it might be from to high cortisol, then add Ashwagandha at bedtime, or if 5-HTP is not enough add it. Melantonin 1mg also works to add if 5-HTP is not enough. Use Kava kava as needed for when you have anxiety or need to stay cool. 

 

Above plan is for when you are not on benzos or medications, before starting you have to at least wean off most of you benzo dosage. Benzo's make other GABA supplement pretty inefficient because they up regulate your receptors so much. 

 

 

And when it comes to doctors prescribing you benzo's, the problem is separating what you really need and what you are told you need. I'm from Scandinavia  for example (but live in Canada now) and back home you have to have quite severe psychiatric problems to get benzos. Mostly people only get them for a couple of weeks if you don't have a serious condition (insomnia is not one, schizophrenia would be a good example). Young people almost never get them and all doctors try everything there is before benzos. An example is a friend of mine who after living in the US for 1 year attending uni, came back with a benzo addiction because his doctor gave him it without trying anything else first. Benzos are like a patch that covers the problem while you have it on, but never really  cures it.
 
Gabapentin is an GABA analogue so it works on GABA level's like benzos. It is also known to increase depression and suicide risk in some people. You are just trading one thing for another just as with Phenibut. If you ever wanna get back to a normal GABA functioning in your brain you cannot keep taking these types of medications, that's just how it works, there is no way around it. All those drugs have side effects of their own and long term safety have not been studied. Big pharma is great at getting people to buy their pills without solving their problems so they come back for more.

You have to ask yourself why you have your issues you need benzo's for in the first place? Usually it is from stress, lack of sunlight, lack of exercise, overwork etc. You have to improve these things and make sure you tried to change your lifestyle as much as possible before you resort to supplements, let alone drugs. Insomnia and related problems are common in today's societies, our monkey brains where not designed to spend hours a day infront of an artifical light (tv's and monitors) eating junk and not moving. So you have to get to the bottom with how you got there before you try to fix it.

 

You can buy GABA as an amino acid also, it is not as effective in crossing the blood brain barrier but it does work to a certain degree. Break open the capsule and pour some of the powder under your tongue and hold it there for 60 sec then I have used that myselfswallow, is more effective way of dosing it and effect is instant.
 
The reason why most of other natural supplements doesn't work while on benzo's is because they are all working on GABA levels as well, like kava, passion flower and valerian. This is because your brain is so used (addicted) to benzo's which is many many times stronger in GABA effects. You will never get much of  an effect from the natural ones as long as you are on benzo's. It's like drinking a bottle of whiskey and then wondering why you don't feel any more drunk from having a beer afterwards.
 

Kava is really the closest you get to benzo like effects and it is non addictive, but you have to buy quality root and not the pills. I suggest the instant powder from Kona Kava I have used that myself. Ashwagandha has similar GABA functions also without being addictive. Also meditation, mindfulness and yoga all raise GABA levels naturally. 


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#26 medievil

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 09:15 AM

Many users here are mentioning Bacopa. My experience with Bacopa is that it doesn't help me with anxiety issues. However, if you are dealing with your anxiety using the benzos and find that your cognitive capacity has gone down the drain, personally I did find Bacopa helped me with that. Subjectively anyway...

 

Also in terms of benzos... I have found etizolam [cue the "it's not a benzo! it's a theinodiazepine!" crowd. Yes- we know] to be the easiest to taper off of. (if you have control of the dosage in  small increments, i.e. 0.25 mg, and a plentiful supply). But, I don't have a lot of benzo experience.

 

 

Etizolam is extremely easo to taper off, in fact if i switch from clonazepam i can just stop it after 4 days and dont really seemed to suffer from withdrawals.



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#27 Dolph

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 09:25 AM

And when it comes to doctors prescribing you benzo's, the problem is separating what you really need and what you are told you need. I'm from Scandinavia  for example (but live in Canada now) and back home you have to have quite severe psychiatric problems to get benzos. Mostly people only get them for a couple of weeks if you don't have a serious condition (insomnia is not one, schizophrenia would be a good example). Young people almost never get them and all doctors try everything there is before benzos. An example is a friend of mine who after living in the US for 1 year attending uni, came back with a benzo addiction because his doctor gave him it without trying anything else first. Benzos are like a patch that covers the problem while you have it on, but never really  cures it.

 

Yes, I also find it quite disturbing and surprising how permissively benzos still seem to be prescribed in North America. Might have been this way in the 70s in Europe.

Benzos are ESSENTIAL drugs without a doubt, but only for those indications where nothing else helps or where there is no alternative. Mild tensions or insomnia are by no means an indication for them.

For the OP I would suggest the more anxiolytic sedating tricyclics like trimipramine or maybe opipramol if he can get his hands on it.


Edited by Dolph, 05 June 2014 - 09:26 AM.





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