42 replies to this topic

[Duchykins]

Good to know. Some people really do just dive in, it's kind of scary to see it

[bzyb]

Have been working out of a down period in my life and am a lot better than I was say six months ago when I've worked gradually to change. Am on an unemployed health care plan, but in a couple months it will end and then have to find my own. The doctors have been very eager to push SSRIs on me, so I have been reluctant to try it and have tried nootropics instead. There's another guy in my class who's drugged up the wazzoo and doses off/absent from class a lot so thats another motivator for me. That being said finding the right stack is taking some time when I should be studying my field.

I just wonder why the doctors push SSRIs so much, is it because they make money from it. Or if they prescribe SSRI, will it raise our insurance premiums in the future? So yeah I'm still holding off on it for now. A good ssri-like herbal supplement is Kanna/Zembrin, but the problem is short half life and it can be kind of expensive. But if okay with money, then it wouldnt be a bad noot to try daily and redose multiple times a day. For now I'm going to keep on being my own guinea pig, off a sulbutiamine crash right now, will try some other stimulants tomorrow lol.

[username]

It's because they believe it's the only way to treat depression.
And because they are standard procedure. Doctors are afraid of being sued. Doing what everyone else does makes them feel safe.
Tbh, I don't blame them for pushing meds. I just think it's sad that they don't explore other treatments with fewer side effects or at least harmless add-ons to SSRIs and antipsychotics.
Simple methylfolate increases the response rate of antidepressants significantly without side effects.
It's crazy how vitamins actually can help with serious illness (+it's proven), but everyone who says that is called a quack. Medicine should be based on science, but sometimes it doesn't appear to be that way.

[Duchykins]

Makes sense. Undermethylation is associated with a variety of brain issues including autism and adh, some types of headaches, poor sleeping and depression.

[bzyb]

It's because they believe it's the only way to treat depression.
And because they are standard procedure. Doctors are afraid of being sued. Doing what everyone else does makes them feel safe.
Tbh, I don't blame them for pushing meds. I just think it's sad that they don't explore other treatments with fewer side effects or at least harmless add-ons to SSRIs and antipsychotics.
Simple methylfolate increases the response rate of antidepressants significantly without side effects.
It's crazy how vitamins actually can help with serious illness (+it's proven), but everyone who says that is called a quack. Medicine should be based on science, but sometimes it doesn't appear to be that way.

Yeah I dont blame them, most of the doctors I've been to have been absolutely swamped (as there are a lot of us with no money or good health care plan lol). So much so I was concerned for one of my doctors at the free clinic who looked worse off than I was. I couldn't imagine having so many patients and then also worrying about malpractice/sued, but the paychecks seem a reason to smile about!

There are a few doctors that are more into that homeopathy but few in far between because of time constraints or also I guess worry about going against the grain. I even have a dentist friend of mine who said there was no problem with me having mercury fillings, and that she puts them in all the time!

I've heard mixed reviews about methylfolate, does it work without SSRI and is it stable or have unstable effects? Next time I'll see the doc, I'm going to ask them though if being prescribed antidepressants will have any effect on future health, life insurance premiums or say trying to apply for some jobs since I'm jobhunting.

I'm not sure I'm at the point of wanting to try pharmaceutical meds yet and still trying to figure out my personal brain chemistry and the stacks that might help it. The braverman.test is a good initial test to take to see neurotransmitter deficiency's etc.

[username]

Be careful with the term homeopathy. That's something different altogether and isn't proven in any way. It's basically about diluting a substance to a degree so that it doesn't acutally contain anything at all.
A lot of people confuse homeopathy with alternative treatments in general.
When it comes to such alternatives, the goal should be to use ones that are proven (placebo-controlled studies) or that are likely to work or can work.

Methylfolate is just a vitamin (methyl-b9). I'd also take methyl-b12 and maybe p5p (vit b6). These are the so-called active forms of these vitamins. They help lower homocysteine.
Vitamins aren't a cure-all, but they can help in some regard. They are not a substitute for an antidepressant by any means. St. john's wort, SAMe and maybe 5-htp are possibilities here to choose from. Curcumin seems to have some antidepressant activity as well. These should never be combined with each other or a prescription antidepressant or antipsychotic without doctor supervision due to the risk of serotonin syndrome. Or you do it and know which risks you are possibly taking. There's always the risk of 'too much'.
I take curcumin and SAMe without any problem and SAMe has been used in studies as an adjunct to SSRIs, but you never know. This is something you will have to evaluate yourself.

There's nothing wrong with taking meds in general. The problems are that many meds have a long list of side effects and you might determine that it's not worth it. Also, it is not a frequent occurrence that the first antidepressant you get prescribed will work. That's just the state of psychiatry at the moment. That is why I would suggest adding the vitamins beforehand to increase the response rate and your chance of success.

[username]

The data showed significantly higher response rates (50% reduction in HDRS-17) after 30 days in patients who received adjunctive Deplin® 15 mg with an SSRI compared to patients who received SSRI and adjunctive placebo. There was also a significantly greater reduction in depressive symptoms as measured by mean change in HDRS-17 in the adjuvant Deplin® 15 mg arm compared to the adjuvant placebo arm.

The two trials in this study used a novel sequential parallel comparison design (or SPCD). Results from the first of two trials (n = 148) was used to inform the dosing of the second trial (n = 75). The first trial found 7.5 mg dosing of L-methylfolate and an SSRI was not significantly different in efficacy compared to placebo and SSRI. The second trial found 15 mg dosing L-methylfolate and an SSRI was significantly superior on response rates and degree of improvement in depressive symptoms compared to placebo and SSRI.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/225902.php

I actually didn't know of the different results in regard to the dosage. Apparently, the dosage has to be very high. 15mg of methylfolate is quite expensive. The study did not use any methyl-b12 or p5p. I think a lower methyl-b9 dosage combined with methyl-b12 and p5p is entirely sufficient. Especially b12 is very important and it's a shame that it wasn't also included in the study.

And btw: High dosage b-vitamins work better than placebo as an add-on to antipsychotics for schizophrenia. Yup, vitamins need to be taken seriously. It can be very powerful depending on your situation.

[TheBatman]

The data showed significantly higher response rates (50% reduction in HDRS-17) after 30 days in patients who received adjunctive Deplin® 15 mg with an SSRI compared to patients who received SSRI and adjunctive placebo. There was also a significantly greater reduction in depressive symptoms as measured by mean change in HDRS-17 in the adjuvant Deplin® 15 mg arm compared to the adjuvant placebo arm.

The two trials in this study used a novel sequential parallel comparison design (or SPCD). Results from the first of two trials (n = 148) was used to inform the dosing of the second trial (n = 75). The first trial found 7.5 mg dosing of L-methylfolate and an SSRI was not significantly different in efficacy compared to placebo and SSRI. The second trial found 15 mg dosing L-methylfolate and an SSRI was significantly superior on response rates and degree of improvement in depressive symptoms compared to placebo and SSRI.

http://www.medicalne...ases/225902.php

I actually didn't know of the different results in regard to the dosage. Apparently, the dosage has to be very high. 15mg of methylfolate is quite expensive. The study did not use any methyl-b12 or p5p. I think a lower methyl-b9 dosage combined with methyl-b12 and p5p is entirely sufficient. Especially b12 is very important and it's a shame that it wasn't also included in the study.

And btw: High dosage b-vitamins work better than placebo as an add-on to antipsychotics for schizophrenia. Yup, vitamins need to be taken seriously. It can be very powerful depending on your situation.

Still good to know. Thank you!

[Duchykins]

I'm hoping you'll do well. I'm sorry about coming on so strong earlier, I unintentionally gave the impression I'm against psych Rx and I'm not. And someone who replied to me did make a very good point that the right Rx for you could give you that little boost that you could enhance it with supplements. I believe this is what bupropion did for me, and I think I've changed my mind about ceasing the drug, although I did just cut all my 200mg pills in half because of the restlessness/agitation/anger, tinnitus, shitty short-term memory, and occasional fuzzy vision I've been getting at that dose (I didn't have all that at 150mg doses). I think that will be my sweet spot.

It's undoubtedly going to be a pain in the ass for you as it is for most people in our positions, looking for that just-right cocktail, but when you get it and your quality of life greatly improves, it will make everything worth it.

[nupi]

Several antidepressants any doctor would prescribe you list psychotic symptoms as a side effect. They increase suicidality in young adults. SAMe and St john's wort aren't worse. They have better side effect profiles without a doubt.

SJW has at effective doses can have pretty terribly side effects (similar story for 5-HTP, BTW).

And if memory or anxiety are concerns, I'd stay away from Bupropion.

[TheBatman]

Several antidepressants any doctor would prescribe you list psychotic symptoms as a side effect. They increase suicidality in young adults. SAMe and St john's wort aren't worse. They have better side effect profiles without a doubt.

SJW has at effective doses can have pretty terribly side effects (similar story for 5-HTP, BTW).

And if memory or anxiety are concerns, I'd stay away from Bupropion.

Memory and anxiety seem to be key factors of my depression. I'm also fairly irritable/aggressive (despite my best efforts to be nice) So i think it's mostly a serotonin problem.

I'm currently looking into paxil, and I'll most likely get a script for it this thursday.

[bzyb]

Methylfolate is just a vitamin (methyl-b9). I'd also take methyl-b12 and maybe p5p (vit b6). These are the so-called active forms of these vitamins. They help lower homocysteine.
Vitamins aren't a cure-all, but they can help in some regard. They are not a substitute for an antidepressant by any means. St. john's wort, SAMe and maybe 5-htp are possibilities here to choose from. Curcumin seems to have some antidepressant activity as well. These should never be combined with each other or a prescription antidepressant or antipsychotic without doctor supervision due to the risk of serotonin syndrome. Or you do it and know which risks you are possibly taking. There's always the risk of 'too much'.
I take curcumin and SAMe without any problem and SAMe has been used in studies as an adjunct to SSRIs, but you never know. This is something you will have to evaluate yourself.

Thanks for the good advice. I have some of similar symptoms as OP though I think a lot of my issues are from having terrible sleep and dealing with family members with illness/pstd in my household doesnt make life easy. To OP I would def recommend try to find out whats causing the issues especially irritability etc, for me its sleep and having to not let family members/people effect me so much. I carry chill pills, beta blockers, anxiolytic herbs, theanine/glutamine, etc with me regularly just in case until I can move out and control my own life.

Due to lack of time/pressures I've been spending more time supplementing rather than finding out exactly what is wrong. I will spend more time researching what I'm low/high in and have some doctor/therapist appts in a few weeks to get popular opinion/blood tests. It is good to know there is nothing that bad that will happen just trying out ssri's so get some just to keep around and to try if things ever get worse. In a couple months I will have to start paying for all my own insurances so I am glad there are no future non-health pitfalls from even prescribing ssris.

I didnt know much about vitamins, although I take plenty multivitamins and Vitamin D, but I will look at B vitamins since they're available at every grocery store. I have curcumin, rhodiala, Sam-E, probiotics arriving tomorrow so fingers crossed something works. I tried SJW did nothing but blood in stools. 5-HTP I never tried, I heard it floods the whole body with serotonin so it may not be good for the heart. I take L-trytophan before I sleep every night since it makes me a bit sleepy. I've tried zembrin in the morning, but its too subtle, I will experiment with taking a few of them at once and see if anything different. Also trying lithium orotate but I find it dulls me and since I'm very busy I need to remain sharp.

Everyone is different so this is a good period for me to try many things and see what works.

[TheBatman]

Methylfolate is just a vitamin (methyl-b9). I'd also take methyl-b12 and maybe p5p (vit b6). These are the so-called active forms of these vitamins. They help lower homocysteine.
Vitamins aren't a cure-all, but they can help in some regard. They are not a substitute for an antidepressant by any means. St. john's wort, SAMe and maybe 5-htp are possibilities here to choose from. Curcumin seems to have some antidepressant activity as well. These should never be combined with each other or a prescription antidepressant or antipsychotic without doctor supervision due to the risk of serotonin syndrome. Or you do it and know which risks you are possibly taking. There's always the risk of 'too much'.
I take curcumin and SAMe without any problem and SAMe has been used in studies as an adjunct to SSRIs, but you never know. This is something you will have to evaluate yourself.

Thanks for the good advice. I have some of similar symptoms as OP though I think a lot of my issues are from having terrible sleep and dealing with family members with illness/pstd in my household doesnt make life easy. To OP I would def recommend try to find out whats causing the issues especially irritability etc, for me its sleep and having to not let family members/people effect me so much. I carry chill pills, beta blockers, anxiolytic herbs, theanine/glutamine, etc with me regularly just in case until I can move out and control my own life.

Due to lack of time/pressures I've been spending more time supplementing rather than finding out exactly what is wrong. I will spend more time researching what I'm low/high in and have some doctor/therapist appts in a few weeks to get popular opinion/blood tests. It is good to know there is nothing that bad that will happen just trying out ssri's so get some just to keep around and to try if things ever get worse. In a couple months I will have to start paying for all my own insurances so I am glad there are no future non-health pitfalls from even prescribing ssris.

I didnt know much about vitamins, although I take plenty multivitamins and Vitamin D, but I will look at B vitamins since they're available at every grocery store. I have curcumin, rhodiala, Sam-E, probiotics arriving tomorrow so fingers crossed something works. I tried SJW did nothing but blood in stools. 5-HTP I never tried, I heard it floods the whole body with serotonin so it may not be good for the heart. I take L-trytophan before I sleep every night since it makes me a bit sleepy. I've tried zembrin in the morning, but its too subtle, I will experiment with taking a few of them at once and see if anything different. Also trying lithium orotate but I find it dulls me and since I'm very busy I need to remain sharp.

Everyone is different so this is a good period for me to try many things and see what works.

Looks like we're in the same boat. Currently I'm looking into issues with gut/intestinal permeability and It might be the cause for some of the anxiety I experience. The problem might be an impairment of converting tryptophan to 5-HTP. This can happen when there's an excess of candida yeast of bacteria in the gut. Today I went out and bought some 5-HTP to see if it works any better. This may mean I have to go gluten free, but Ill see if my doctor can run any tests for it. Gut problems can also cause some issues with the conversion of glutamate to GABA. Even a slight excess of glutamate can cause anxiety and I think it might deplete magnesium as well.

Sleep is one of my problems and tomorrow night I'm doing a sleep study. I was also looking into the light box therapy, but I'll need to do some more research before I decide on it or not.

I'm also on a bit of a time crunch and I most likely wont be able to find the root of the problem anytime soon, but I'm getting a hold of some short term solutions. I ordered some bacopa, picking up B vitamins today, and I'm waiting for a doctors appointment to get a script for an ssri and a few chill pills haha. That along with the 5-HTP might allow me to manage my anxiety more effectively.

Be careful with lithium orotate. It has a very long half life and IMO it shouldn't be over the counter. If you take it daily the effects will accumulate and you'll be a zombie for a whole week after cessation. Believe me, I know from experience.

Keep me posted, I'm especially curious to see if the probiotics help you.

Edited by TheBatman, 18 February 2014 - 06:25 PM.