5 replies to this topic

[MrBlobby]

When I was in my youth I experimented a lot with illegal drugs. From the age of 16 I was smoking cannabis regularly and this progressed onto MDMA (ecstasy), speed, cocaine and ketamine. I spent two years of my life regularly taking drugs at parties and festivals. Looking back, my justification was that everybody else seemed to be taking part and I felt like I belonged for the first time in my life and that I had real friends.

About a year after my period of continued drug use, around the time I began college, I started to feel somewhat different in myself. I was disconnected, and my thoughts were jumbled. I quickly became nervous in social situations and began withdrawing from life in general. I went to see a psychologist who gave me an SSRI. This definitely helped to lift my mood, I felt less anxious and whilst my cognitive drawbacks were still apparent I could socialise and began forming new relationships and feeling myself again. However, having read a lot about the damaging effects SSRIs can have long term, i quit completely. 1 year on and at the age of 24 my brain feels weak. My memory, short and long is worse than that of my 90 year old nan. I have mental blocks and my verbal fluency is poor. I am certain i have done significant damage to my brain and am determined to try to do everything possible. I eat well and have been a constant gym goer for the past 3 years.

----> in comes Cerebrolysin.

Over the years I have tried everything with regards to natural organic herbs vitamins etc etc and always spend time researching. I've come to the conclusion that cerebrolysin may produce a real opportunity for true healing opposed to covering up a damaged system. The thought of this petrified me, I hate needles and injecting this pig brain soup fills me with horror.

However, ordered all of the supplies and injected 2ml into my thigh. After a few panic attacks and after managing to convince myself I wasn't going to die or turn into a pig I began to feel great. I went to sleep as had the work the next day.Woke up fresh, felt revitalised and the day I had at work was incredible. I was sharp, focused and more importantly my good old self I lost all those years ago.

However, my problem now lies with my anxieties concerning it's safety. I have read a lot but cannot come close to understanding the ways In which this is actually working. I am aware that this is clearly a strong drug but at the same time, it seems to have a very low side effect and risk profile from what I have read. It almost seems too good to be true.

My questions that I really need answering before I continue any further injections are as follows:

1. What are the real risks with this?

2. Is Cerebrolysin immunogenic and what does this mean ?

3. Could I have an allergic reaction and die ?

4. Can It can use any serious long term problems?

5. If i was to do a month long trial, what am i actually putting at stake here ?

6. Is this too extreme ? its meant for people with dementia, am i being way too risky and stupid ?


In a nut shell how risky is this, because from what I've read so far it seems to be a miracle cure that ticks all the boxes with very limited negative effects, but as my lesson with SSRIS taught me, if it feels too good to be true, its probably doing brain damage So perhaps comparing this say to the potential damage caused by long term SSRI use.

All comments and responses will be so greatly appreciated and if anyone from the UK who knows about this drug and/or has used it, I would LOVE to have a chat over the phone or something.

Thanks a lot !

[mrd1]

SSRI's do not cause brain damage. People who recommend that they should discontinue their FDA approved medication for there Major Depressive Disorder or Anxiety in place for some alternative treatment are going against modern medical advice and making false claims for the treatment of disease because "There is no evidence that alternative treatment is effective for severe depression" (WebMD).

SSRI's block the reuptake of seritonin from the synaptic cleft. Over the LONG term your body adapts to this by down regulating certain receptors with 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c being of particular importance. This is absolutely essential to understanding why the arguement that antidepressant cause "brain damage" is pseudoscience because, it works BY reducing the seritonin receptors 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c. And, that is a good thing because when you look at autopsied brains of people who killed themselves they have a overexpression of 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c receptors.

Furthermore, the reason they don't work instantly is not because they are a scam, but rather that, your brain has these things called autoreceptors which sort of act like vines blocking SSRI's path till they downregulate through those and can act on the therapeutic target receptors. This has been proven to be the case because, even the FDA approved the used of 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c antagonists which clog up the autoreceptors and make SSRI's act much faster which is useful for severe major depressive disorder.

Lastly, antidepressants are well documented to increase neurogenesis in the hippocampus which creates neurons which then can be "shipped up" to the frontal lobe. This likely also plays a role in mediating SSRI's antidepressant effects as when the brain is "depressed" or under a period of chronic nonlife threatening stress hormones like glucocorticoids and epinephrine are released which may bind to adrenal receptors in the hippocampus and these things called glial cells may release glutamate which then can interact with glutamate receptors in the hippocampus causing amino excitotoxicity. SSRI's ability to boost neurogenesis likely plays as another factor in mediating its antidepressant effects.

Alternative medicine may have some great benefits. However, I would advise that you never use it as a replacement for current approved medical treatment for serious and distressing disorders.

[Rior]

Mrd, reading past posts of yours makes it evident that you're knowledgeable. That said, however, where in the hell have you heard about neurogenesis in the hippocampus leading to transportation to frontal lobes? My understanding of the hippocampus indicates that it is essentially the largest supply of adult neuronal stem cells following pruning in early adulthood, however I've never once heard of actual cell transport of mature cells from the hippocampus to the frontal lobes. If that's in fact true, then I would LOVE to see the source for it, because the implications for that would be incredible. That said, I wouldn't encourage OP to stay on the SSRIs, nor encourage him to stop. There are enough arguments for either side that I believe that particular decision should be up to him.

With that aside though, cerebrolysin is not simply some "alternative medicine." I'm curious, have you read the personal experiences of the many people on these boards about it? Or the many, many very positive pub med articles for studies that have studied it? Coming from my own personal experience, it is a phenomenal neurogenic compound to use. I've dealt with foggy thoughts and depression from past drug use myself and can fully identify with everything the OP has said. I was on Zoloft for about a year/year and a half. While Zoloft dramatically helped the anxiety, it did not cause much in terms of actual benefits in restoring past cleverness or cognitive ability. That said, I tried cerebrolysin as well. Cere at 5mL/day is, far and away, the greatest anxiolytic, antidepressant and cognitive boost of any substance I have ever tried. And I've tried very, very very very many. (Including NSI, I was in the first group buy.)

Going off of cere's MoA, it would certainly make sense that it would be helpful. Using cere is essentially bathing the brain in neurotrophic factors and quintessential amino acids necessary for building a strong neuronal structure. Seeing as the basic principle behind LTP is "what fires together, wires together" Id think its safe to say the brain inherently *wants* to be fluently connected and provide clear thought and strong structure. With the addition of the necessary amino acids and neurotrophic factors in cere, using your brain in a similar way every day for the entire duration of your cere cycle is bound to strengthen those connections you're constantly using, ultimately leading to consistently clearer thought.

As one who has long suffered from depression, then felt the benefits of cerebrysin, I'm quickly becoming a proponent of the ideology that a large part of depression and anxiety are linked to a lower amount of neurotrophic factors. Its obviously a lot more than just that, as many 5HT receptors have also been implicated (as well as DA receptors...and NMDA receptors...and AMPA receptors...in one fashion or another) but I can say with absolute certainty that cerebrolysin is beneficial. For me, more beneficial by far than anything before it. Again, it should be entirely up to the OP as to whether he decides to stick with SSRIs or not, I'm not going to push him in either direction. I've felt both their benefits and downfalls.

Back to the OP though, it seems the largest risk you run with cere is the risk of infection during injection. For that reason, obviously never use the same needle or syringe twice, and thoroughly wash hands/clean the injection site prior to injecting. I found great benefit from 5mL daily. To talk entirely theoretically, I'd think that cerebrolysin would also run the risk of aiding tumor growth if you already have one, but in otherwise healthy patients should be fine. I can't see any reason why you'd find yourself having an allergic reaction, unless you have some unusual response to either the medium the cerebrolysin is suspended in or one of the many amino acids in there.

Either way, I'd suggest giving it a go and seeing how you feel. Most people start feeling the benefits anywhere from day 4-day 7, with the benefits becoming most apparent around day 10 and then lasting. Report your experience back here!

[mrd1]

Rior, good call on the questionably of the claim that neuron formed during neurogenesis (specifically the ones formed in the hippocampus) can be sent to the frontal lobes. I have looked around briefly and can't find a obvious credible source for this. I believe I saw it in a diagram either in my text book "Biological Psychology" or during a lecture online by Dr. Saplosky on Depression at Stanford. Given that I typically walk on a treadmill while viewing and the grainy resolution when on the television, it is entirely plausible I misread the slide he put up or simply encoded what I read leisurely incorrectly. Until someone can produce a credible source, I would use extreme caution and skepticism with any claims of adult neurons produced in the hippocampus leaving the hippocampus.

By alternative medicine, I don't mean it in the common way, that it is used to label something as a shame or ineffective or less than. I simply meant that Cerebrolysin is not currently approved by the FDA to treat, cure, or prevent any disease at this time. However, at least I think this is a case, I am not a lawyer (or anything actually - just a highschool student), that persons have the right to use any treatment they believe will help their condition. So, I guess rather than alternative medicine a better term would be "possible alternative, -if for personal use, research, and educational purposes-, medicine. Far from everyone responds to SSRI treatment and, if I recall correctly I think the numbers around only 40%. It is entirely possible that cerebrysin could have greater efficacy than current standard SSRI's in treating Major Depressive Disorder.

I am currious, how much is cerebrolysin costing you? From what I have heard, it is very hard to synthesize and pretty costly.

I agree that neurotrophic factors likely play a strong role in depression. In fact, so strong that, while I do take a SSRI every day (more specifically effexor 150 mg so technically a Selective Seritonin Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitor), I attempt to prevent relapse mainly via a increasing neurogenesis and synaptogenesis. As for neurotrophin specifically, I take numerious things that can increase BDNF and NGF specifically (Noopeptide, Lion Mane Mushroom etc.)

Your likely very correct in that neurotrophic factors play a important part in depression and anxiety. I mean even chronic exposure to antidepressant has been linked to increasing levels of these neurotrophins. Also, 5HT (specifically 5-HT2C especially), ampa regulators, and nmda receptors (partically nmda antagonism mediating a indirect activation of the ampa receptors and, inhibiting gaba interneurons) all have been shown to be able to produce neurogenesis and synaptogenesis and be correlated with rather strongly changes in neurotrophic factors.

I second that risk of infection, I would buy the needles in large amounts so your not tempted to use one twice. Also, I am sure plenty of videos exist online instructing safe injection practices.

As with any at risk population, I would have a friend aware and keep up with you the first few days to make sure you don't have any odd reaction or a worsening of depressive thoughts etc. etc. etc. This has nothing to do with cerebrolysin. It just is a good idea but some people act different to chemicals and that can have serious consequences for those with depression.

Im too tired but, looking into its GSK3B activity and increasing of neurogenesis in the dendrate gyrus Masliah E1 Díez-Tejedor E., 2012) both might be areas of the brain you might want to read up on. GSK3B is interesting because it is targeted by both wake therapy and lithium carbonate.

Given that both Lithium and Cerebrolysin exert some of there effects probably via the GSK3B and that interactions between GSK3B with Beta Almyoid tauproteins. I bet these terms will end up showing up as possibly import in understanding the chain of events that are taking place PKC GSK3 cAMP PKA mTOR1C PI3K .

[lourdaud]

I think you did a wise choice getting off the SSRI. DO NOT use these crappy drugs. Sure, they may get you on your feet but they won't really improve your condition.
You're on the right track with cerebrolysin. Fuck the risks, come on, it's your brain and mental health we're talking about. So just keep chuckin that needle in.

Other agents you may want to look into:
Hydergine
Psychedelics
Racetams (piracetam and noopept particulary)
NSI-189 (maybe)

Lots and lots of salt and water is also good. So is endurance training.

[MrBlobby]

To start with i would just like to thank everyone for taking the time to respond and for giving such comprehensive justification behind suggestions and recommendations

Mrd1 with regards to SSRI's causing brain damage, admittedly this is based upon a very subjective individual perspective, supported by nothing much more than my surface reading of a few forums and friends who have noted similar deficits with regards to cognitive function. It is instantly clear that i can in no way enter into a discussion surrounding this, as you clearly have a hugely in-depth understanding about the ways in which they may or may not cause damage. That said, i cannot ignore the fact that when dosage is increased or my length of time (approx 6 years in total) taking these drugs increased, i noticed a marked decline in my overall capacity to recall information.

My concerns with cerebrolysin are mirrored by my lack of understanding, and i fully appreciate the difference between FDA approved medications and not ; coupling this with the lack of long term studies on cerebrolysin, i am extremely reserved about continuing down this route. My concerns are surrounding the basic principle, of the substance being derived from a non-human brain, and the proteins being non-recognised by our human mind and body. I suppose i'm thinking about adverse long term reactions that your body may have, such as cancer and mental illnesses further down the line. I instinctively think about these risks due to the clearly large effect this drug has upon the mind. It is a treatment for very serious and debilitating diseases and i just feel that in turning my body into a pin cushion and trying this is a little too extreme.

Could i be suffering consequences much later on in life as a result of taking this, or am i being too worried and this is exactly what my slow brain needs ?

I am buying it online at a price of £35 for 5 x 5ml vials - i've got enough to do a month cycle

Thanks