71 replies to this topic

[dankis]

1-But our community is.
2- we're also predisposed to go (2)bald, get (4)cancer and (3)die, (1)what's your point? We're trying to avoid that...

No matter what way you try and sugar coat it, until we find a way to eradicate cancer a posteriori eating animal protein will hinder our quest for longeviety I never argued for unsupplemented completeness of a plant only diet, nor is it the diet I'm advocating, all I'm saying is animal proteins should be avoided.

1.Why predisposition to eat certain type of food is important? There are many harmful factors in any lifestyle. If someone or something is adapted to given lifestyle it has developed defense mechanisms agaist these pathogenic factors.

2.Balding is bad because socienty says so, right? Athletic body sometimes looks much better with bald head. A shaved head can make men seem more dominant and masculine.

3.Yes, we are probably predisposed to die, but certainly not in our productive age. It is just waste of resources.

4.We are predisposed to get cancer? really? So please tell me why our bodies immune system attack cancer cells? Bad lifestyle and overload of new enviromental toxins IMO cause most health problems.

[Darryl]

Darryl, meant to ask you ever since you changed your avatar. What's that microscopic animal? (or a plant part -?)

Its a jellyfish (genus Cephea) approximately 35 cm across. I took the photo at 25 m depth in the Maldives last October.

Edited by Darryl, 08 March 2014 - 07:27 PM.

[Jeoshua]

I should bring up one other point, for what it's worth. The word "paleo" has unfortunately become conflated in the popular mind with high meat / high fat diets. (I even used it that way myself in the quote above!) That's unfortunate, because the paleo principle simply says that we shouldn't eat modern foods that we are not fully genetically adapted to. You could have a low fat high carb paleo diet, or a vegan paleo diet. It doesn't have to be hyperlipid or hyper-meat.

So very true. I, myself, eat a low-meat Paleo diet. As part of the "processed foods are bad" aspect of the diet, I will not eat Hamburgers, Scrambled Eggs, Fish Sticks, Chicken Nuggets, or any meat prepared in such a way that the individual muscle fibers are not visible and obvious. This becomes a bit of an open question when dealing with some meats, as it is possible that they are texturized meat pastes, which are of course horrible for you and there is NO way that we have evolved to eat disinfected pink meat slurry, such foods being products of the Industrial Era thinking about profits and market-share rather than health and sustainability.

As far as amount, I eat very little meat in a given day. One rib-eye steak. A pork chop. One whole fish. Something like that, whole, complete, and preferably sustainably farmed if I can afford it. This keeps my protein intake decent for the day, and protein is important for so many reasons. I also stick with the whole idea of avoiding bread and beans, and replace that with Cruciferous Vegetables like Broccoli or Cabbage. And I work out a bit each day, as well, since we are certainly not evolved to just sit around idly in front of glowing boxes all day.

And echoing a previous sentement about the mouse: I look like the mouse on the left. Skinny but strong.

[xEva]

Darryl, meant to ask you ever since you changed your avatar. What's that microscopic animal? (or a plant part -?)

Its a jellyfish (genus Cephea) approximately 35 cm across. I took the photo at 25 m depth in the Maldives last October.

oh! because of that circle of light around I thought it was a view in a light microscope, like in an old Bausch and Lomb with daylight from the window as a light source. I thought it was a side view of a banana ovule lol


Sorry for the offtop guys

[Vardarac]

I've walked through the nutritionfacts.org propaganda and the paleo blogger propaganda alike. Having thumbed through multiple studies, I find it hard to argue against the idea that a low GI plant-based diet is ideal for longevity. That being said, there remain with me three concerns, namely how a supplement-free schmuck like myself will source b12 (yeast? really?), retain a higher omega 3-6 ratio, and eat adequate calories and protein given my poor appetite for plant foods. I have the opposite problem most people have - I undereat rather than eat too much, especially if it's food I don't find particularly palatable like most plant foods.

For now, I source my protein and DHA/EPA from wild Moroccan sardines. No radioactive contamination, minimal heavy metal contamination, minimal pollution, sustainable. Maybe this is a bad choice in the long term, but the evidence I've seen so far can't tell me either way if 1. any potential benefits from getting omega 3's from these particular fish are outweighed by drawbacks like high protein or contaminants or 2. what would be adequate substitutes for them in a plant-based diet.

While we're talking about paleo vs. vegan, do any paleos walking through the thread have any studies to link to showing problems with grains or legumes? The main arguments, as I understand it, are that "sticky proteins" and that largely empty insulin-spiking calories are to blame, but I'm not familiar with any studies linking these two things to poor health outcomes or diseases.

*continues digging*

Edited by Vardarac, 09 March 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[theconomist]

I've walked through the nutritionfacts.org propaganda and the paleo blogger propaganda alike. Having thumbed through multiple studies, I find it hard to argue against the idea that a low GI plant-based diet is ideal for longevity. That being said, there remain with me three concerns, namely how a supplement-free schmuck like myself will source b12 (yeast? really?), retain a higher omega 3-6 ratio, and eat adequate calories and protein given my poor appetite for plant foods. I have the opposite problem most people have - I undereat rather than eat too much, especially if it's food I don't find particularly palatable like most plant foods.

For now, I source my protein and DHA/EPA from wild Moroccan sardines. No radioactive contamination, minimal heavy metal contamination, minimal pollution, sustainable. Maybe this is a bad choice in the long term, but the evidence I've seen so far can't tell me either way if 1. any potential benefits from getting omega 3's from these particular fish are outweighed by drawbacks like high protein or contaminants or 2. what would be adequate substitutes for them in a plant-based diet.

While we're talking about paleo vs. vegan, do any paleos walking through the thread have any studies to link to showing problems with grains or legumes? The main arguments, as I understand it, are that "sticky proteins" and that largely empty insulin-spiking calories are to blame, but I'm not familiar with any studies linking these two things to poor health outcomes or diseases.

*continues digging*

For omega 3 you can try flax seed, it's also calorie dense so it may help you in that regards.
In terms of protein I found that lentils are really good, there are so many things you can do with them. You could also try pea protein isolate and hemp protein.
For your b12 needs there is no need to not having a serving or two per week of animal organ (fish preferably).

[Gerrans]

I've walked through the nutritionfacts.org propaganda and the paleo blogger propaganda alike. Having thumbed through multiple studies, I find it hard to argue against the idea that a low GI plant-based diet is ideal for longevity. That being said, there remain with me three concerns, namely how a supplement-free schmuck like myself will source b12 (yeast? really?), retain a higher omega 3-6 ratio, and eat adequate calories and protein given my poor appetite for plant foods. I have the opposite problem most people have - I undereat rather than eat too much, especially if it's food I don't find particularly palatable like most plant foods.

For now, I source my protein and DHA/EPA from wild Moroccan sardines. No radioactive contamination, minimal heavy metal contamination, minimal pollution, sustainable. Maybe this is a bad choice in the long term, but the evidence I've seen so far can't tell me either way if 1. any potential benefits from getting omega 3's from these particular fish are outweighed by drawbacks like high protein or contaminants or 2. what would be adequate substitutes for them in a plant-based diet.

While we're talking about paleo vs. vegan, do any paleos walking through the thread have any studies to link to showing problems with grains or legumes? The main arguments, as I understand it, are that "sticky proteins" and that largely empty insulin-spiking calories are to blame, but I'm not familiar with any studies linking these two things to poor health outcomes or diseases.

*continues digging*

When you say you do not eat supplements, is that just a prejudice against things with the name "supplement"? One way round this is to recategorise some supplements as food, I think. In that case you could take supplements to help your B12 and omega-3 ratio if they did not contain chemical synthetics. So why not yeast (you did not explain your objection); why not cod liver oil; why not algae?

I am not paleo, and I eat whole grains and legumes. They provide calories. I do not bother about GI. I am not a big fan of plain veg either, but I find the likes of mushrooms, onions, and peppers quite scrumptious, when cooked and accompanied attractively. However, I shall not be eating mega-piles of kale any time soon. Best of luck.

Edited by Gerrans, 09 March 2014 - 02:55 PM.

[ta5]

We've known for 15 years that high methionine and lysine proteins stimulate IGF-1 signalling and cancer proliferation. The most interesting thing about this study was the bimodality of response, with protein no longer being so deletorious (at least with respect to cancer) after age 65.

Can you tell me which of the papers that you linked to shows that lysine stimulates IGF-1? Or, did you mean Leucine?

[Darryl]

Leucine, yes. I had been in a discussions elsewhere about how soy may not be so bad in moderation (in the context of this and other studies implicating high protein diets), as it has the highest lysine to leucine ratio among plant foods, necessitating a lower leucine load to achieve adequate lysine. I resumed multitasking before noting my error.

Science has even pinpointed leucine's major point of interaction at the Rag GTPases upstream of mTOR, though all the branched chain and some of the aromatic amino acids seem to be implicated in growth signalling to some lesser extent.

I thought this paper shed light on the diabetes side of the story:

Wang, Thomas J., et al. "Metabolite profiles and the risk of developing diabetes." Nature medicine 17.4 (2011): 448-453.

Five branched-chain and aromatic amino acids had highly-significant associations with future diabetes: isoleucine, leucine, valine, tyrosine, and phenylalanine. A combination of three amino acids predicted future diabetes (>5-fold higher risk for individuals in top quartile).
....
Known polymorphisms are only associated with 5% to 37% increases in the relative risk of diabetes, compared with the 60% to 100% increases in risk that we observed with elevation in amino acids. Indeed, the relative risks associated with elevated amino acids were comparable to, or higher than, those associated with higher age, fasting glucose, or body mass index in prior population-based studies.

Edited by Darryl, 09 March 2014 - 05:43 PM.

[LexLux]

Casein was proven to be strong pro inflammatory most likely by mechanism independent of its amino acid content. What is more dairy protein is one of the most common allergens and has opioid activity. Comparing casein to other animal protein like animal muscles or organ meats is IMO nonsense.

IGF... What is it? Ah yes, a growth factor. Growth factor of:

• bones =better bone density;
• skin = better looking less wrinkles,
• muscles = not being an aggressive vegan scarecrow
• IMO most important a growth factor of neurons.

When you shout "IGF is klling you with cancer and diabetes", you seem to "forget" about the other side of the coin which is increased quality of life. Many people prefer quality over quantity because not everyone is focused on vegetating 100 + years.

Meat is bad, fat is bad and cholesterol is a necrophilic pedophile-murderer living next door who tortures small cute cats , right?
Can you please show example of very low carbohydrate diet where animal protein(excluding dairy) is harmful and subjects are not feed mostly PUFA oils or trans fat?

Completeness of unsupplemented plant only diet is a joke. I truly realised it when I went deeper into genetics. I am not only saying about mainstream things like B12 or DHA. It goes much deeper, into the rabbit hole. There is suprisingly high incidence of SNPs capable of making your life very miserable on a vegan diet which are neutral or even benefical when you eat meat. One of the most notable are polymorphisms of BCMO1 gene, an enzyme converting carotene to retinyl esters.

From SNPedia:

rs12934922 (R267S) and rs7501331 (A379V) double mutant have a reduced catalytic activity of beta-carotene by 57%. Female volunteers carrying the T variant of rs7501331 (379V) had a 32% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene, and those carrying at least one T in both SNPs show a 69% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene into retinyl esters.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....7?dopt=Abstract

In caucasians the chance of being at least heterozygous in both RS is ~20%. It translates to ~69% lower activity of beta-carotene 15,15'-monoxygenase thus making almost impossible to achieve optimal vitamin A levels without preformed retinol intake.

People are genetically predisposited to eat animals. Show me evidence they aren't.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but let me respond to your post. I think we can all agree that being healthy is the central pillar quality of life. Diseases like cancer, heart disease, diabetes can be deadly, others like arthritis and autoimmune conditions can make like life horrible. Chronic inflammation has been identified as a mechanism involved in all of these diseases. Plant based diets are quite good for preventing and even treating these diseases.

What you posted about individuals who are heterozygous and have a lower activity of the enzyme required to convert beta carotene is misleading. Even for the minority of people who are heterozygous they can still get sufficient amounts of vitamin A from beta-carotene. In just 100g of sweet potato there is 19218IU (384% DV), assuming this is beta-carotene then for an individual with 69% lower enzyme activity this would convert to 119% DV. By the way animal organs are high in cholesterol so keep that in mind if you want your vitamin A preformed.

Now in response to what you posted about humans being "genetically predispositioned" I think that is once again misleading. Humans are omnivores; we evolved that way out of necessity, we are not carnivoresin the same way as a cat is. For example cats need to eat foods containing carnitine to be healthy, whereas humans can reach homeostasis through synthesizing carnitine. On the other hand humans cannot synthesize vitamin C even though we still have the gene for this, this is because our bodies became used to getting massive amounts from fruits. The main point about humans is that we can choose what we eat, but this does not mean that everything we can eat is going to be good for us in the long term.

You also asked for evidence to show that meat can be bad us, well here you go:

Mortality - the second one is a massive study looking at overall, cancer and heart disease mortality

• N. D. Barnard, J. Cohen, D. J. A. Jenkins, G. Turner-McGrievy, L. Gloede, A. Green, and H. Fer-dowsian. A low-fat vegan diet and a conventional diabetes diet in the treatment of type 2 diabetes: A randomized, controlled, 74-wk clinical trial. Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 89(5):1588-1596, 2009.
• R. Sinha, A. J. Cross, B. I. Graubard, M. F. Leitzmann, and A. Schatzkin. Meat intake and mortality: a prospective study of over half a million people. Arch Intern Med. 2009 March 23; 169(6): 562–571.
• B. M. Popkin. Reducing meat consumption has multiple benefits for the world's health. Archives of internal medicine, 169(6):543, 2009.

Methionine - restriction is a strategy in both cancer growth control as well as lifespan extension

• M. F. McCarty, J. Barroso-Aranda, F. Contreras. The low-methionine content of vegan diets may make methionine restriction feasible as a life extension strategy. Med. Hypotheses 2009 72(2):125 - 128.
• M. C. Ruiz, V. Ayala, M. Portero-Otín, J. R. Requena, G. Barja, R. Pamplona. Protein methionine content and MDA-lysine adducts are inversely related to maximum life span in the heart of mammals. Mech. Ageing Dev. 2005 126(10):1106 - 1114.
• M. López-Torres, G. Barja. Lowered methionine ingestion as responsible for the decrease in rodent mitochondrial oxidative stress in protein and dietary restriction possible implications for humans. Biochim. Biophys. Acta 2008 1780(11):1337 - 1347.
• V. Agrawal, S. E. J. Alpini, E. M. Stone, E. P. Frenkel, A. E. Frankel. Targeting methionine auxotrophy in cancer: discovery & exploration. Expert Opin Biol Ther 2012 12(1):53 - 61.
• E. Cellarier, X. Durando, M. P. Vasson, M. C. Farges, A. Demiden, J. C. Maurizis, J. C. Madelmont, P. Chollet. Methionine dependency and cancer treatment. Cancer Treat. Rev. 2003 29(6):489 - 499.
• B. C. Halpern, B. R. Clark, D. N. Hardy, R. M. Halpern, R. A. Smith. The effect of replacement of methionine by homocystine on survival of malignant and normal adult mammalian cells in culture. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 1974 71(4):1133 - 1136.

Arachidonic Acid - this inflammatory compound plays a part in cancer, asthma, inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and other autoimmune disorders.

• de Silva PS, Olsen A, Christensen J, Schmidt EB, Overvaad K, Tjonneland A, Hart AR. An association between dietary arachidonic acid, measured in adipose tissue, and ulcerative colitis. Gastroenterology. 2010 Dec;139(6):1912-7. Epub 2010 Oct 13.

• Harizi H, Corcuff JB, Gualde N. Arachidonic-acid-derived eicosanoids: roles in biology and immunopathology. Trends Mol Med. 2008 Oct;14(10):461-9.

• Adam O, Beringer C, Kless T, Lemmen C, Adam A, Wiseman M, Adam P, Klimmek R, Forth W. Anti-inflammatory effects of a low arachidonic acid diet and fish oil in patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Rheumatol Int. 2003 Jan;23(1):27-36.

• Kjeldsen-Kragh J, Haugen M, Førre O, Laache H, Malt UF. Vegetarian diet for patients with rheumatoid arthritis: can the clinical effects be explained by the psychological characteristics of the patients? Br J Rheumatol. 1994 Jun;33(6):569-75.

Weight Gain - one of the largest nutrition studies ever, strong association between eating meat and weight gain even after controlling for calories.

• Vergnaud AC, Norat T, Romaguera D, Mouw T, May AM, Travier N, Luan J, Wareham N, Slimani N, Rinaldi S, Couto E, Clavel-Chapelon F, Boutron-Ruault MC, Cottet V, Palli D, Agnoli C, Panico S, Tumino R, Vineis P, Agudo A, Rodriguez L, Sanchez MJ, Amiano P, Barricarte A, Huerta JM, Key TJ, Spencer EA, Bueno-de-Mesquita B, Büchner FL, Orfanos P, Naska A, Trichopoulou A, Rohrmann S, Hermann S, Boeing H, Buijsse B, Johansson I, Hellstrom V, Manjer J, Wirfält E, Jakobsen MU, Overvad K, Tjonneland A, Halkjaer J, Lund E, Braaten T, Engeset D, Odysseos A, Riboli E, Peeters PH. Meat consumption and prospective weight change in participants of the EPIC-PANACEA study. Am J Clin Nutr. 2010 Aug;92(2):398-407.

Additives - phosphorus (injected into meat as preservative damages blood vessels, accelerates the aging process, and contributes to osteoporosis), nitrosamines (carcinogens), drugs etc.

• Y. Shutto, M. Shimada, M. Kitajima, H. Yamabe, M. S. Razzaque. Lack of awareness among future medical professionals about the risk of consuming hidden phosphate-containing processed food and drinks. PLoS ONE 2011 6(12):e29105.
• R. A. Sherman, O. Mehta. Dietary phosphorus restriction in dialysis patients: Potential impact of processed meat, poultry, and fish products as protein sources. Am. J. Kidney Dis. 2009 54(1):18 - 23

• E. Ritz, K. Hahn, M. Ketteler, M. K. Kuhlmann, J. Mann. Phosphate additives in food--a health risk. Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2012 109(4):49 - 55.
• O. Benini, C. D'Alessandro, D. Gianfaldoni, A. Cupisti. Extra-phosphate load from food additives in commonly eaten foods: A real and insidious danger for renal patients. J Ren Nutr. 2011 21(4):303 - 308.

• L. Murphy-Gutekunst, J. Uribarri. Hidden Phosphorus-Enhanced Meats: Part 3. J Ren Nutr. 2005 15(4):E1-E4.

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• Campillo N, Viñas P, Martínez-Castillo N, Hernández-Córdoba M. Determination of volatile nitrosamines in meat products by microwave-assisted extraction and dispersive liquid-liquid microextraction coupled to gas chromatography-mass spectrometry. J Chromatogr A. 2011 Apr 8;1218(14):1815-21. Epub 2011 Feb 13.
• Haorah J, Zhou L, Wang X, Xu G, Mirvish SS. Determination of total N-nitroso compounds and their precursors in frankfurters, fresh meat, dried salted fish, sauces, tobacco, and tobacco smoke particulates. J Agric Food Chem. 2001 Dec;49(12):6068-78.
• Stich HF, Hornby AP, Dunn BP. The effect of dietary factors on nitrosoproline levels in human urine. Int J Cancer. 1984 May 15;33(5):625-8.

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• Andrée S, Jira W, Schwind KH, Wagner H, Schwägele F. Chemical safety of meat and meat products. Meat Sci. 2010 Sep;86(1):38-48.
• U.S. Department of Agriculture. FSIS National Residue Program for Cattle. Audit Report 24601-08-KC, March 2010.

Endotoximia from dead bacteria - inflammation

• Harte AL, Varma MC, Tripathi G, McGee KC, Al-Daghri NM, Al-Attas OS, Sabico S, O'Hare JP, Ceriello A, Saravanan P, Kumar S, McTernan PG. High fat intake leads to acute postprandial exposure to circulating endotoxin in type 2 diabetic subjects. Diabetes Care. 2012 Feb; 35(2):375-82.
• Erridge C. The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4. Br J Nutr. 2011 Jan; 105(1):15-23.
• Deopurkar R, Ghanim H, Friedman J, Abuaysheh S, Sia CL, Mohanty P, Viswanathan P, Chaudhuri A, Dandona P. Differential effects of cream, glucose, and orange juice on inflammation, endotoxin, and the expression of Toll-like receptor-4 and suppressor of cytokine signaling-3. Diabetes Care. 2010 May; 33(5):991-7.

Neu5Gc - causes inflammation and avoiding this can help rheumatoid arthritis patient, the inflammation is also used by cancer to grow

• http://www.pnas.org/...6.full.pdf html
• Padler-Karavani V, Yu H, Cao H, Chokhawala H, Karp F, Varki N, Chen X, Varki A. Diversity in specificity, abundance, and composition of anti-Neu5Gc antibodies in normal humans: potential implications for disease. Glycobiology. 2008 Oct;18(10):818-30.
• http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18364013

I can always find more but I think is enough for now.

Edited by LexLux, 09 March 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[dankis]

(1).I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but let me respond to your post. I think we can all agree that being healthy is the central pillar quality of life. Diseases like cancer, heart disease, diabetes can be deadly, others like arthritis and autoimmune conditions can make like life horrible. Chronic inflammation has been identified as a mechanism involved in all of these diseases. Plant based diets are quite good for preventing and even treating these diseases.

(2)What you posted about individuals who are heterozygous and have a lower activity of the enzyme required to convert beta carotene is misleading. Even for the minority of people who are heterozygous they can still get sufficient amounts of vitamin A from beta-carotene. In just 100g of sweet potato there is 19218IU (384% DV), assuming this is beta-carotene then for an individual with 69% lower enzyme activity this would convert to 119% DV. By the way animal organs are high in (3)cholesterol so keep that in mind if you want your vitamin A preformed.

(4)Now in response to what you posted about humans being "genetically predispositioned" I think that is once again misleading. Humans are omnivores; we evolved that way out of necessity, we are not carnivoresin the same way as a cat is. For example cats need to eat foods containing carnitine to be healthy, whereas humans can reach homeostasis through synthesizing carnitine. On the other hand humans cannot synthesize vitamin C even though we still have the gene for this, this is because our bodies became used to getting massive amounts from fruits. The main point about humans is that we can choose what we eat, but this does not mean that everything we can eat is going to be good for us in the long term.


(5)You also asked for evidence to show that meat can be bad us, well here you go:

(6)Arachidonic Acid - this inflammatory compound plays a part in cancer, asthma, inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and other autoimmune disorders.

1. ketogenic/Very low carbohydrate diets (less than 50g carbohydrates/day) are one of the best anti-inflammatory and neuroprotective regimens available.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2367001/

2. I have to say that you are not right. It doesn't work the way you descripted. This enzyme is saturable so more beta-carotene you take, the less % is converted to retinol making impossible to get optimal vitamin A levels no matter how many thousands of % RDA carotene you get. What is more carotene is fat soluble making it very low bioavailable without dietary fat. Example of subject with hypercarotenemia and hypovitaminosis A.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/17951468/

3. Cholesterol is IMO beneficial without chronic inflammation.

4. I agree with You that humans are genetically omnivores but they can't live on unsupplemented plant only diet, while they can on animal only diet and IMO nutrition dominant in meat with some greens is optimal.

5. I asked for evidence to show that meat is bad on very low carbohydrate(ketogenic) diet.

6. Animals that doesn't eat grains and nuts have very low omega 6 content. While i was on a paleo-keto diet my fat intake was about 200g a day with less than 10 g of omega 6.

Edited by dankis, 09 March 2014 - 09:49 PM.

[LexLux]

(1).I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but let me respond to your post. I think we can all agree that being healthy is the central pillar quality of life. Diseases like cancer, heart disease, diabetes can be deadly, others like arthritis and autoimmune conditions can make like life horrible. Chronic inflammation has been identified as a mechanism involved in all of these diseases. Plant based diets are quite good for preventing and even treating these diseases.

(2)What you posted about individuals who are heterozygous and have a lower activity of the enzyme required to convert beta carotene is misleading. Even for the minority of people who are heterozygous they can still get sufficient amounts of vitamin A from beta-carotene. In just 100g of sweet potato there is 19218IU (384% DV), assuming this is beta-carotene then for an individual with 69% lower enzyme activity this would convert to 119% DV. By the way animal organs are high in (3)cholesterol so keep that in mind if you want your vitamin A preformed.

(4)Now in response to what you posted about humans being "genetically predispositioned" I think that is once again misleading. Humans are omnivores; we evolved that way out of necessity, we are not carnivoresin the same way as a cat is. For example cats need to eat foods containing carnitine to be healthy, whereas humans can reach homeostasis through synthesizing carnitine. On the other hand humans cannot synthesize vitamin C even though we still have the gene for this, this is because our bodies became used to getting massive amounts from fruits. The main point about humans is that we can choose what we eat, but this does not mean that everything we can eat is going to be good for us in the long term.


(5)You also asked for evidence to show that meat can be bad us, well here you go:

(6)Arachidonic Acid - this inflammatory compound plays a part in cancer, asthma, inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and other autoimmune disorders.

1. ketogenic/Very low carbohydrate diets (less than 50g carbohydrates/day) are one of the best anti-inflammatory and neuroprotective regimens available.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2367001/

2. I have to say that you are not right. It doesn't work the way you descripted. This enzyme is saturable so more beta-carotene you take, the less % is converted to retinol making impossible to get optimal vitamin A levels no matter how many thousands of % RDA carotene you get. What is more carotene is fat soluble making it very low bioavailable without dietary fat. Example of subject with hypercarotenemia and hypovitaminosis A.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/17951468/

3. Cholesterol is IMO beneficial without chronic inflammation.

4. I agree with You that humans are genetically omnivores but they can't live on unsupplemented plant only diet, while they can on animal only diet and IMO nutrition dominant in meat with some greens is optimal.

5. I asked for evidence to show that meat is bad on very low carbohydrate(ketogenic) diet.

6. Animals that doesn't eat grains and nuts have very low omega 6 content. While i was on a paleo-keto diet my fat intake was about 200g a day with less than 10 g of omega 6.

1. & 5. I would like to draw your attention to this first study that showed that a low carbohydrate and high meat protein diet was associated with increased mortality and that low carbohydrate plant based diets increased longevity::

• Fung TT, van Dam RM, Hankinson SE, Stampfer M, Willett WC, Hu FB. Low-carbohydrate diets and all-cause and cause-specific mortality: two cohort studies. Ann Intern Med. 2010 Sep 7;153(5):289-98.

• Jenkins DJ, Wong JM, Kendall CW, Esfahani A, Ng VW, Leong TC, Faulkner DA, Vidgen E, Greaves KA, Paul G, Singer W. The effect of a plant-based low-carbohydrate (

In addition I'd like to add that cutting carbohydrates does not address issues like uric acid since its also derived from purines in meat, or arachidonic acid, methionine and most of the other thing from my earlier post.

2. so the bottom line is that this is a genetic disorder and you should get your blood levels checked? Will research this further, I add olive oil for absorption, others want coconut oil.

3. Cholesterol medications are a huge hit:

• Ferenczi EA, Asaria P, Hughes AD, Chaturvedi N, Francis DP. Can a statin neutralize the cardiovascular risk of unhealthy dietary choices? Am J Cardiol. 2010 Aug 15;106(4):587-92.
• Stirban AO, Tschoepe D. Should we be more aggressive in the therapy against cardiovascular risk factors? Should we prescribe statin and aspirin for every diabetic patient, or is it time for a polypill? Diabetes Care. 2008 Feb;31 Suppl 2:S226-8.

I would reconsider your view on cholesterol

• Meinertz H, Nilausen K, Faergeman O. Effects of dietary proteins on plasma lipoprotein levels in normal subjects: interaction with dietary cholesterol. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1990 Oct; 36 Suppl 2:S157-64.
• Samman S, Kurowska EM, Khosla P, Carroll KK. Effects of dietary protein on composition and metabolism of plasma lipoproteins in rabbits. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1990 Oct; 36 Suppl 2:S95-9.
• Hansson GK. Inflammation, atherosclerosis, and coronary artery disease. N Engl J Med. 2005 Apr 21; 352(16):1685-95.

4. I would say supplementing b12 is essential for vegans (good for everyone) and for optimum health adding a EPA DHA algae omega 3 supplement is good and so is vitamin D.

6. sounds expensive and would not be possible for a majority or the world's population. Also does not address other compounds from my earlier post which were not related to saturated fat.

Edited by LexLux, 10 March 2014 - 12:04 AM.

[Vardarac]

When you say you do not eat supplements, is that just a prejudice against things with the name "supplement"? One way round this is to recategorise some supplements as food, I think. In that case you could take supplements to help your B12 and omega-3 ratio if they did not contain chemical synthetics. So why not yeast (you did not explain your objection); why not cod liver oil; why not algae?

The main thing is that I have to wonder what sources of B12, DHA, and EPA were during our evolutionary history. It's not that the things you listed aren't plentiful sources of these nutrients, but didn't our ancestors get by without yeast (or rather, the bacteria that made the b12 that go into the yeast) and algae? Would they really have been better for it if they did eat it, as opposed to getting these nutrients from, say, fish or wild game?

I would think that everything nutritionally necessary or even ideal could be obtained from a whole, conventional foods diet. I am perfectly open to someone proving me wrong on that.

I am not paleo, and I eat whole grains and legumes. They provide calories. I do not bother about GI. I am not a big fan of plain veg either, but I find the likes of mushrooms, onions, and peppers quite scrumptious, when cooked and accompanied attractively. However, I shall not be eating mega-piles of kale any time soon. Best of luck.

Kale chips are amazing when prepared properly. I also eat steamed vegetables. I'm a fan of lentil stews and couscous, too, but I've since cut back on them and eaten mostly fish, fruits, and vegetables until I know what the deal is with grains/legumes.

Edited by Vardarac, 10 March 2014 - 12:03 AM.

[LexLux]

When you say you do not eat supplements, is that just a prejudice against things with the name "supplement"? One way round this is to recategorise some supplements as food, I think. In that case you could take supplements to help your B12 and omega-3 ratio if they did not contain chemical synthetics. So why not yeast (you did not explain your objection); why not cod liver oil; why not algae?

The main thing is that I have to wonder what sources of B12, DHA, and EPA were during our evolutionary history. It's not that the things you listed aren't plentiful sources of these nutrients, but didn't our ancestors get by without yeast (or rather, the bacteria that made the b12 that go into the yeast) and algae? Would they really have been better for it if they did eat it, as opposed to getting these nutrients from, say, fish or wild game?

I would think that everything nutritionally necessary or even ideal could be obtained from a whole, conventional foods diet. I am perfectly open to someone proving me wrong on that.

I am not paleo, and I eat whole grains and legumes. They provide calories. I do not bother about GI. I am not a big fan of plain veg either, but I find the likes of mushrooms, onions, and peppers quite scrumptious, when cooked and accompanied attractively. However, I shall not be eating mega-piles of kale any time soon. Best of luck.

Kale chips are amazing when prepared properly. I also eat steamed vegetables. I'm a fan of lentil stews and couscous, too, but I've since cut back on them and eaten mostly fish, fruits, and vegetables until I know what the deal is with grains/legumes.

Seems we got alot of b12 from unfiltered drinking water from rivers etc. Bacteria in our bodies do produce b12, but way to low in the intestines to be absorbed. So it's in human feces (and non-human), which may actually explain how it found its way into water. Not sure on EPA/DHA but now we could and arguable should choose the sustainable algae epa/dha option which is where fish get their stores from anyways.

Edited by LexLux, 10 March 2014 - 12:15 AM.

[Vardarac]

Seems we got alot of b12 from unfiltered drinking water from rivers etc. Bacteria in our bodies do produce b12, but way to low in the intestines to be absorbed. So it's in human feces (and non-human), which may actually explain how it found its way into water. Not sure on EPA/DHA but now we could and arguable should choose the sustainable algae epa/dha option which is where fish get their stores from anyways.

This is a bit off topic, but this is just one more reason to use aquaponics everywhere. Surely we could raise algae that have EPA/DHA in such an environment?

Anyway - how much algae do I need to eat to get, say, the sort of concentrations of long-chain omega 3's I'd expect from a garden-variety tin of sardines?

Edited by Vardarac, 10 March 2014 - 12:36 AM.

[LexLux]

I couldn't tell you, I take an algae oil supplement as in my post to Dankis. Maybe find someone who's trying

[LexLux]

Kale chips are amazing when prepared properly. I also eat steamed vegetables. I'm a fan of lentil stews and couscous, too, but I've since cut back on them and eaten mostly fish, fruits, and vegetables until I know what the deal is with grains/legumes.

Paleo folks love to talk smack about legumes but they can't seem to explain these epidemiological studies showing legumes and whole grains as healthy choices that promote increased lifespan:

I. Darmadi-Blackberry, M. Wahlqvist, A. Kouris-Blazos, et al. Legumes: the most important dietary predictor of survival in older people of different ethnicities. Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2004;13(2):217-20.

W. Chang, M. Wahlqvist, H. Chang, C. Hsu, M. Lee, W. Wang, C. Hsiung. A bean-free diet increases the risk of all-cause mortality among Taiwanese women: The role of the metabolic syndrome. Public Health Nutr 2012 15(4):663 - 672.

S. J. Nechuta, B. J. Caan, W. Y. Chen, W. Lu, Z. Chen, M. L. Kwan, S. W. Flatt, Y. Zheng, W. Zheng, J. P. Pierce, X. O. Shu. Soy food intake after diagnosis of breast cancer and survival: An in-depth analysis of combined evidence from cohort studies of US and Chinese women. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 2012 96(1):123 - 132.

S. M. Krebs-Smith, P. M. Guenther, A. F. Subar, S. I. Kirkpatrick, K. W. Dodd. Americans do not meet federal dietary recommendations. J. Nutr. 2010 140(10):1832 - 1838.

S. E. Fleming, A. U. O'Donnell, J. A. Perman. Influence of frequent and long-term bean consumption on colonic function and fermentation. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1985 41(5):909 - 918.

M. Zanovec, C. O'Neil, T. Nicklas. Comparison of Nutrient Density and Nutrient-to-Cost between Cooked and Canned Beans. Food and Nutrition Sciences 2011 2(NA):66-73.

Y. Zhang, H. Kang, B. Li, R. Zhang. Positive effects of soy isoflavone food on survival of breast cancer patients in China. Asian Pac. J. Cancer Prev. 2012 13(2):479 - 482.

D. M. Winham, A. M. Hutchins. Perceptions of flatulence from bean consumption among adults in 3 feeding studies. Nutr J 2011 10(NA):128.

Edited by LexLux, 10 March 2014 - 01:19 AM.

[Vardarac]

Any of the epidemiological studies could be interpreted such that bean substitution in an otherwise poor diet improved health markers. It's arguably better to be eating beans than, say, bread or white rice. I don't know what to think about Mark Sisson, but he does point out a few studies that suggest that grains and beans are potentially harmful. I think the most informative studies would be those that follow the health of populations that have nutritionally adequate diets without grains and legumes, then track the effect of their inclusion on health outcomes.

Edited by Vardarac, 10 March 2014 - 01:52 AM.

[LexLux]

Any of the epidemiological studies could be interpreted such that bean substitution in an otherwise poor diet improved health markers. It's arguably better to be eating beans than, say, bread or white rice. I don't know what to think about Mark Sisson, but he does point out a few studies that suggest that grains and beans are potentially harmful. I think the most informative studies would be those that follow the health of populations that have nutritionally adequate diets without grains and legumes, then track the effect of their inclusion on health outcomes.

I wouldn't take him seriously, the only thing that stood out was gluten which we all know about... MOAR beans:

Winham DM, Hutchins AM, Johnston CS. Pinto bean consumption reduces biomarkers for heart disease risk. J Am Coll Nutr. 2007 Jun;26(3):243-9.

Winham DM, Hutchins AM. Baked bean consumption reduces serum cholesterol in hypercholesterolemic adults. Nutrition Research. Volume 27, Issue 7, Pages 380-386 (July 2007).

M. Dong, X. He, and R. H. Liu. Phytochemicals of black bean seed coats: Isolation, structure elucidation, and their antiproliferative and antioxidative activities. J. Agric. Food. Chem., 55(15):6044-6051, 2007.

J. Mattei, F. B. Hu, H. Campos. A higher ratio of beans to white rice is associated with lower cardiometabolic risk factors in Costa Rican adults. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 2011 94(3):869 - 876

F. Brighenti, L. Benini, D. Del Rio, C. Casiraghi, N. Pellegrini, F. Scazzina, D. J. A. Jenkins, I. Vantini. Colonic fermentation of indigestible carbohydrates contributes to the second-meal effect. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 2006 83(4):817 - 822

Edited by LexLux, 10 March 2014 - 02:18 AM.

[BobSeitz]

One little tidbit about beans that might affect leaky gut syndrome: they need to be soaked in water for 12 hours, followed by several rinses, to reduce their lectin load. According to what I've read (which isn't much),that still only gets rid of about 50% of their lectins. Does anybody know of a way to further lower their lectin levels without seriously compromising their nutritional properties?

[Vardarac]

The protective effects of beans are all well and good, but I'm more concerned with charges about phytates and lectins. Why aren't those problematic? This especially concerns me where Sisson links to an article saying that fiber is good for your GI tract because it effectively rips away intestinal cells. Now, I'm no expert on the subject, but the idea of stimulating GI cell division above and beyond what I need to get the gut going doesn't appeal to me.

Edited by Vardarac, 10 March 2014 - 03:02 AM.

[LexLux]

I'm honesty not able to find evidence that its an issue for humans . I really think its fear mongering, especially since there's also the leaky gut theory for saturated animal fat:

• Erridge C, Attina T, Spickett CM, Webb DJ. A high-fat meal induces low-grade endotoxemia: evidence of a novel mechanism of postprandial inflammation. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Nov; 86(5):1286-92.
• Kutlu A, Oztürk S, Taşkapan O, Onem Y, Kiralp MZ, Ozçakar L. Meat-induced joint attacks, or meat attacks the joint: rheumatism versus allergy. Nutr Clin Pract. 2010 Feb; 25(1):90-1.
• Vogel RA, Corretti MC, Plotnick GD. Effect of a single high-fat meal on endothelial function in healthy subjects. Am J Cardiol. 1997 Feb 1; 79(3):350-4.
• Rosenkranz SK, Townsend DK, Steffens SE, Harms CA. Effects of a high-fat meal on pulmonary function in healthy subjects. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2010 Jun; 109(3):499-506.

• Angelini P. Midventricular variant of transient apical ballooning: a likely demonstration of its pathophysiologic mechanism. Mayo Clin Proc. 2009; 84(1):92-3.

Edited by LexLux, 10 March 2014 - 03:07 AM.

[Vardarac]

Many of these high-fat studies are incomplete. Erridge's involved the administration of 50g butter in addition to three slices of (what I imagine to be whole-wheat, or worse, white) toast, without checking for the independent effects of either. If you agree that gluten is a potential issue for intestinal permeability, then his study equally backs that hypothesis.

Rosenkranz's study is equally ambiguous. The high fat meal invariably included refined sugar, carageenan, and other additives present in Edy's (I used to work in a Nestle ice cream factory - the difference in quality between Edy's and Haagen-Dazs in terms of both taste and their ingredient lists are night and day).

I couldn't get past the paywall on Vogel's study to assess the methodology.

In none of these studies are these fats derived from animals fed entirely on organic pasture, and in only one (Erridge's, with an unspecified sort of tea) are they taken in some combination with anti-inflammatory foods to see the overall effect of combined meals on atherosclerosis-related markers.

I'm not about to starting stuffing my face with steak, butter, or ice cream, but I think the studies you've cited would be a far cry from demonizing, say, wild-caught fish, especially if it is preceded or accompanied by anti-inflammatory foods.

[LexLux]

I know what you're saying but at some point you should take all of your evidence for paleo theory and do a basic risk benefit analysis when compared to plant based. The paleo theory just thrives on ambiguity (grass fed, no prefect studies, pay rolls (as if there isn't a meat industry) etc). To me the risks of paleo are just immense and the benefits seem to be theoretical. We haven't even gone into all the benefits of plant based nutrition. Please start posting studies, it really helps people to see where you're coming from because bloggers are really not recognized.

Edited by LexLux, 10 March 2014 - 04:18 AM.

[Vardarac]

I'm not a paleo myself, nor am I about to become one. However, I do take (what appears to be agreed-upon) advice to avoid refined oils, starches, sugars, nitrate salts, and meats cooked at a high temperature.

What is more ambiguous to me is 1. if sardines are on the whole beneficial (and/or if any attendant risks are minimized by other lifestyle or diet factors, as might to some point be the case with other foods) and 2. if grains or legumes along with yeast and expensive algae supplements (I admit to a bias here) are complete and adequate substitutes for the fish, especially considering that my intake of these foods is so low as to put my protein intake at fewer than 30g a day if I were to exclude all meat and dairy.

It really boils down to wanting to eat meat rather than choke down algae, yeast, and plant protein just to maintain optimal health.

Fish consumption - From what I can see, neutral or perhaps beneficial toward heart health. Ambiguity is probably caused by lack of examination of which fish are being eaten - some will be more contaminated than others, and different fish have different nutrient profiles
Fruit juices and anti-inflammatory extracts reduce inflammatory and atherogenic effects caused by high fat meals

And here are a couple of studies that Sisson links to regarding lectins and phytates. I don't take bloggers at face value - I want to see the studies backing up their perspective.

Concanavalin A and agglutinin are insulin agonists
Concerning lectins

Edited by Vardarac, 10 March 2014 - 05:43 AM.

[LexLux]

Avoiding the risks associated with elevated mercury, PCBs, dioxins and tons of random junk with fish is gonna be a challenge, the way things bioaccumulate makes it painfully clear how much pollution makes its way into the ocean.

• A. Schecter, T. R. Harris, N. Shah, A. Musumba, and O. Papke. Brominated flame retardants in us food. Mol Nutr Food Res, 52(2):266-272, 2008.
• B. Antonijevic, C. Matthys, I. Sioen, M. Bilau, J. Van Camp, J. L. Willems, and S. De Henauw. Simulated impact of a fish based shift in the population n-3 fatty acids intake on exposure to dioxins and dioxin-like compounds. Food Chem. Toxicol., 45(11):2279-2286, 2007.
• http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19857053
• http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23089109
• S. J. Petre, D. K. Sackett, D. D. Aday. Do national advisories serve local consumers: An assessment of mercury in economically important North Carolina fish. J. Environ. Monit. 2012 14(5):1410 - 1416.
• P. Grandjean, J. E. Henriksen, A. L. Choi, M. S. Petersen, C. Dalgaard, F. Nielsen, P. Weihe. Marine food pollutants as a risk factor for hypoinsulinemia and type 2 diabetes. Epidemiology 2011 22(3):410 - 417.
• D.-H. Lee, I.-K. Lee, K. Song, M. Steffes, W. Toscano, B. A. Baker, D. R. Jacobs Jr. A strong dose-response relation between serum concentrations of persistent organic pollutants and diabetes: Results from the National Health and Examination Survey 1999-2002. Diabetes Care. 2006 29(7):1638 - 1644.
• A. Wallin, D. Di Giuseppe, N. Orsini, P. S. Patel, N. G. Forouhi, A. Wolk. Fish consumption, dietary long-chain n-3 fatty acids, and risk of type 2 diabetes: Systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective studies. Diabetes Care. 2012 35(4):918 - 929.
• R. F. White, C. L. Palumbo, D. A. Yurgelun-Todd, K. J. Heaton, P. Weihe, F. Debes, P. Grandjean. Functional MRI approach to developmental methylmercury and polychlorinated biphenyl neurotoxicity. Neurotoxicology 2011 32(6):975 - 980.
• D. A. Axelrad, D. C. Bellinger, L. M. Ryan, T. J. Woodruff. Dose-response relationship of prenatal mercury exposure and IQ: An integrative analysis of epidemiologic data. Environ. Health Perspect. 2007 115(4):609 - 615.
• E. Oken, A. L. Choi, M. R. Karagas, K. Mariën, C. M. Rheinberger, R. Schoeny, E. Sunderland, S. Korrick. Which fish should I eat? Perspectives influencing fish consumption choices. Environ. Health Perspect. 2012 120(6):790 - 798.
• I. B. Cace, A. Milardovic, I. Prpic, R. Krajina, O. Petrovic, P. Vukelic, Z. Spiric, M. Horvat, D. Mazej, J. Snoj. Relationship between the prenatal exposure to low-level of mercury and the size of a newborn's cerebellum. Med. Hypotheses 2011 76(4):514 - 516.
• M. R. Karagas, A. L. Choi, E. Oken, M. Horvat, R. Schoeny, E. Kamai, W. Cowell, P. Grandjean, S. Korrick. Evidence on the human health effects of low-level methylmercury exposure. Environ. Health Perspect. 2012 120(6):799 - 806.
• . J. Strain, P. W. Davidson, M. P. Bonham, E. M. Duffy, A. Stokes-Riner, S. W. Thurston, J. M. W. Wallace, P. J. Robson, C. F. Shamlaye, L. A. Georger, J. Sloane-Reeves, E. Cernichiari, R. L. Canfield, C. Cox, L. S. Huang, J. Janciuras, G. J. Myers, T. W. Clarkson. Associations of maternal long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids, methyl mercury, and infant development in the Seychelles Child Development Nutrition Study. Neurotoxicology 2008 29(5):776 - 782.
• A. M. Lando, Y. Zhang. Awareness and knowledge of methylmercury in fish in the United States. Environ. Res. 2011 111(3):442 - 450.
• P. A. Olsvik, H. Amlund, B. E. Torstensen. Dietary lipids modulate methylmercury toxicity in Atlantic salmon. Food Chem. Toxicol. 2011 49(12):3258 - 3271.
• M. Porta. Persistent organic pollutants and the burden of diabetes. Lancet 2006 368(9535):558-559.
• B. Choi, L. Lapham, L. Amin-Zaki, T. Saleem. Abnormal neuronal migration, deranged cerebral cortical organization, and diffuse white matter astrocytosis of human fetal brain: a major effect of methylmercury poisoning in utero. J Neuropathol Exp Neurol. 1978 37(6):719-733..
• S. B. Elhassani. The many faces of methylmercury poisoning. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. 1982 19(8):875 - 906.
• K. Yaginuma-Sakurai, K. Murata, M. Iwai-Shimada, K. Nakai, N. Kurokawa, N. Tatsuta, H. Satoh. Hair-to-blood ratio and biological half-life of mercury: Experimental study of methylmercury exposure through fish consumption in humans. J Toxicol Sci. 2012 37(1):123 - 130.
• D. McAlpine, S. Araki. Minamata disease: An unusual neurological disorder caused by contaminated fish. Lancet 1958 2(7047):629 - 631.

endocrine disruptors:

• F. Ferrara, F. Fabietti, M. Delise, E. Funari. Alkylphenols and alkylphenol ethoxylates contamination of crustaceans and fishes from the Adriatic Sea (Italy). Chemosphere 2005 59(8):1145 - 1150.

Sorry if it seems like Im just dumping this on you but, the evidence does not look good for brain health just to name one. Why are you so worried about protein, restriction is the easy life extension (especially methionine) unless you're over 65? i can understand you decision, thats what it boils down to for most people. For me it's helped me try new foods (lots of curry) I never at before and your taste buds actually adapt within about 3 months. Will check out those studies soon!

Edited by LexLux, 10 March 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[Vardarac]

I've got to get on with work, but I will thumb through these studies over the week. Right now I'm a small, scrawny person, and I fear I may already have a protein or caloric deficiency. I intend to bodybuild when I have a proper source of income. While I understand that more calories and more protein mean shorter lifespan, I'm skeptical that the changes necessary for maximum longevity will (for me) be worth the sacrifices in quality of life it would be necessary to make.

[ben951]

If you want a reason for the popularity of paleo diets, look at the body shapes of the mice in chupo's post above.

Lol, that is very true. I lift weights and I am a little bit of a bodybuilder. Unfortunately, I think a diet for muscle building and longevity isn't completely compatible. I try to balance things, but in the end meat and dairy build muscle, but don't seem to be optimal for health. It is one of life's trade offs, unless someone knows of a way to have your cake and eat it too. I wouldn't be surprised if hormonal therapy was healthier than eating lots of animal protein in order to build muscle....

[Gerrans]

Seems we got alot of b12 from unfiltered drinking water from rivers etc. Bacteria in our bodies do produce b12, but way to low in the intestines to be absorbed. So it's in human feces (and non-human), which may actually explain how it found its way into water. Not sure on EPA/DHA but now we could and arguable should choose the sustainable algae epa/dha option which is where fish get their stores from anyways.

I like this point. Everyone has pet theories, and here is one of mine. I think that the upper intestine is a later digestive development, and that our ancestor animals had a largely anaerobic, fermentative digestion. Later our digestive systems evolved to eat more refined and predigested food, such as meat and fish. Then instead of getting all their nutrients direct from plants, our ancestors started getting more and more of them embedded in the susbtance of animals. In this respect, I do not think it matters whether we get our Omega-3s from fish or from the algae that the fish ate. The same with the O-3s in other meats. It seems to me that a spoon of algae powder can be considered a food, not just a supplement. Contains some nice protein, too. In my opinion, animal food is just predigested and reformulated plant food.

This is a bit off topic, but this is just one more reason to use aquaponics everywhere. Surely we could raise algae that have EPA/DHA in such an environment?

Anyway - how much algae do I need to eat to get, say, the sort of concentrations of long-chain omega 3's I'd expect from a garden-variety tin of sardines?

I agree that the quality of algae needs to be looked at very carefully.

I am of the school of thought that says we do not need to eat much O-3. Just because it is essential and good for us does not mean the more the merrier. Too much polyunsaturate is by no means a good thing, because it is quite fragile. I should think the reason the body does not make it from scratch shows that it does not need too much. Also, I think that when the human body evolved, it had an expectation to derive enough O-3 from the diet at the time--small amounts being enough. It is only now some people eat a synthetic diet that O-3 deficiency may be considered a worrying prospect in some quarters.

Edited by Gerrans, 10 March 2014 - 07:27 PM.

[Gerrans]

Seems we got alot of b12 from unfiltered drinking water from rivers etc. Bacteria in our bodies do produce b12, but way to low in the intestines to be absorbed. So it's in human feces (and non-human), which may actually explain how it found its way into water. Not sure on EPA/DHA but now we could and arguable should choose the sustainable algae epa/dha option which is where fish get their stores from anyways.

I like this point. Everyone has pet theories, and here is one of mine. I think that the upper intestine is a later digestive development, and that our ancestor animals had a largely anaerobic, fermentative digestion. Later our digestive systems evolved to eat more refined and predigested food, such as meat and fish. Then instead of getting all their nutrients direct from plants, our ancestors started getting more and more of them embedded in the susbtance of animals. In this respect, I do not think it matters whether we get our Omega-3s from fish or from the algae that the fish ate. The same with the O-3s in other meats. It seems to me that a spoon of algae powder can be considered a food, not just a supplement. Contains some nice protein, too. In my opinion, animal food is just predigested and reformulated plant food.

This is a bit off topic, but this is just one more reason to use aquaponics everywhere. Surely we could raise algae that have EPA/DHA in such an environment?

Anyway - how much algae do I need to eat to get, say, the sort of concentrations of long-chain omega 3's I'd expect from a garden-variety tin of sardines?

I agree that the quality of algae needs to be looked at very carefully.

I am of the school of thought that says we do not need to eat much O-3. Just because it is essential and good for us does not mean the more the merrier. Too much polyunsaturate is by no means a good thing, because it is quite fragile. I should think the reason the body does not make it from scratch is that it does not need too much. Also, I think that when the human body evolved, it had an expectation to derive enough O-3 from the diet at the time--small amounts being enough. It is only now some people eat a synthetic diet that O-3 deficiency may be considered a worrying prospect in some quarters.

Edited by Gerrans, 10 March 2014 - 07:37 PM.