8 replies to this topic

[Laz34]

Hello i'm an italian 22 years old student and i'm recovering from a serious sleep disorder. I opened a similar topic in Bulletproofexec forum and the community helped me out by giving general advices about nutritions, and supplementations. But since i had some questions about racetams and nootropics in general, that they werent able to answer, i'm gonna ask here as well.

Since i can't post a direct link to the other thread, i'll put all my posts in this spoiler. Here you can find my history (regarding biorythm and bad habits) and all the integral questions that i posed:

Spoiler

Hello, i'm an italian 22 years old student and i'm afflicted by a serious sleep disorder from more than 6 years.
My biorhythm is totally upset: i usually go to bed at 6 a.m. and wake up at 4 p.m. and i spend more than 1 our to fall asleep. Also the sleep isn't continuous, i wake up every 3 hours and, because i've not enough energy to get off the bed, i can't do nothing more than wait and try to fall asleep again.

Because of this i wasn't able to frequent high school in traditional way, so i obtained my graduation doing home schooling. My I.Q. is 157sd15 (taken several reliable high range test) and I'd like to follow the biology faculty at the university, but, because of my sick lifestyle, is almost impossible for me to frequent the courses. Also my situation is getting worse because i feel increasingly tired day after day -every time that i wake up i feel stunned and this sensation persist through the day- , so i can't focus enough to manage an effective study program.

Recently i consulted a medic specialized in sleep therapy and, after an analysis of the sleep quality with a motion sensor bracelet, he prescripted me 1mg of Armonia fast (melatonin fast) to be taken daily at 11 p.m. , plus 25mg Valdoxan (Agomelatin) -in order to amplify the production of melatonin and to slightly improve the mood- to be taken for seven weeks, and at last he advised me to buy "litebook elite" -a led light for S.A.D. that simulates sunlight- and to use it daily for 45 minutes as soon as i wake up. Along with this i discovered this wonderful site and i gathered some informations about supplements an nootropics that i showed to my general doctor and, thank to this, i obtained a Piracetam prescription (Nootropil oral vials 3g) along with choline alfoscerate 600 mg. After this partial summary about my medical history, i've got some questions for you:

Prefix that i'm a 22 years old student and i'm not rich, i've seen that the suggested supplements in this article (https://www.bulletpr...ur-supplements/) are very much and i can't afford all of them. Considered my background, what of them should i priorize? (i've already got ascorbic acid, krill oil and magnesium citrate)

I believe that bulletproof coffee could be useful to give a little sprint to my vigil state, but i live in Italy and i've much difficulties to find grass fed butter and brain octane in order to make it. Do you have any suggestions about alternative ingredients or stores (possibly cheap) that ship those ingredients in Italy?

About Nootropics and Piracetam: i've starded yesterday by taking a high dose of 6g (at 5 p.m.) plus 600 mg of choline after dinner. Today i've taken 3 g of piracetam and no choline because i didn't feel headaches -i didn't feel headaches also with 6g of piracetam- : should i take choline anyway or i should continue to not take it?
My doctor told me the Piracetam liquid form is more effective, problem is it's not cheap, but the fact is that it's not cheap; do you have any suggestions in order to economize the nootropic therapy or any other more effective racetam that fits better my needs?
What do you think about Modafinil, could benefit for my situation?
Do you have other nootropics to advise?

I followed the recent podcast with Steven Fowkes and i was intrigued with the red led light question -about activation of mitochondria and inhibition of cortisol production-, the question is: do you find that a "red light therapy" could fit for me? If yes, do you have some red led equipment to advise that i can buy? Also i heard from Steven that collagen taken before bed is good for brain, but i've not fully understood the details about it, because i still can't understand well spoken english.

In a nutshell: i aim to regularize my biorythm in order to wake up without feeling stunned every morning at least at 8 a.m.; to have enough energy and sharpness to follow an intensive study program and having an high morale. Any other advice tended to achieve this objetives is welcome and encouraged.

I'm sorry for my english, hope it is understandable.

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(about diet)

Well, since i wake up at 4 p.m. my diet is almost totally screwed up and i haven't yet started following paleo style (eliminate cereals and high fructose fruit). My eating routine is almost like this:

4:00 p.m. i drink only a lot of water and an orange juice along with my supplements (general multivitaminic http://www.fornarisp...da.cfm?wid=5809 -to be overwrited trying to follow dave advices-) plus Krill oil 500mg and Piracetam 3g.

7:30 p.m. between 120 and 200g of meat -usually white and sometimes red- along with cooked vegetables like zucchini, leeks, peas, black cabbage, potatoes, savoy cabbage and other kinds -depends on day, usually at least two of this list- between 100 and 200g. Since i haven't eliminated cereals yet, i also "fill myself" eating bread made with whole wheat flour along with this as little as i can -about 80g but i don't eat crumb because i don't like it, so its far less). In almost every meal i like to flavour all with lemon, black pepper and whole salt. The meat is flavoured with rosemary, thyme or sage.
Plus 500 mg of Krill oil, one tablespoon of this thing https://www.amicafar...are-500-ml.html and 3,5 g of ascorbic acid.

10:30 p.m. sometimes at this time i want to eat something sweet, so i go for a pair of handles of plain chocolate 75% at least or a small portion of an homemade plain chocolate dessert, usually made with coconut oil.

3:00 a.m. starting having cravings, usually i eat a little bit of random cold cuts -like two or three slices of salami- along with two breadstick made with whole wheat flour and extra virgin olive oil. -Probably the worst meal of the day-.

Than at 6:00 a.m. or sometimes even at 8:00 a.m. i go to bed.

The only positive thing is that almost every ingredient in my family's house is biological or organic -don't know what's the right way to say it in english-.

I'd like to stick on bulletproof diet while resincronizing circadian rhythm, but i don't know if it's the case to go for I.F. or for a more "ardenal fatigue oriented" diet style. Also i don't know where to buy grass-fed butter. Since here in Italy butter quality isn't the best, my family has totally replaced it with extra virgin olive oil or coconut oil.

My weight is 60 kg x 1.70 m in height. Haven't yet calculed BF.

As always, sorry for my english... I hope it is understandable

About the links: yes, they're in italian but the ingredients lists of both supplements are right there, listed in "ingredienti"... You can easily translate them with google translate if you need.

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(answering one question regarding my day-cicle)


Yes it has. Obviously i haven't instantly started to waking up at 4 p.m. : during the years i beginned to waking up at 10:30 a.m. / 11:00 p.m. and progressively later, year after year; so, when i used to wake up between 11:00 a.m. and 2 p.m. i didn't snack during the night and instead taking only supplements and an orange juice for breakfast i used to eat 6 organic fried quail eggs with extra virgin olive oil, with bread of course. I've started to waking up so late (between 3 p.m. and 5 p.m.) during 9/13 until now.

In the last 6 years during my day i used to study (first for lyceum, then for personal pleasure), read classic novels, play a lot of videogames, doing brain-training (recently, n-back training). Used to do all this activities if i was almost sharp or with minor brain fog, during major brain fog phases, I passed almost all the time watching movies and television series, stick to the bed. Regarding the exercise routine, i've always done, and i'm still doing, 3 sessions per week of push ups -between 120 and 200- and crunches -almost 100-.

Anyway, i've got an update for you. Between Sunday and Monday, trying to overturn biorythm, i decided to stay awake as much as i could. I allowed myself 3 hours of sleep between 1:30 p.m. and 4:30 p.m. and i removed bread from my dinner, eating more vegetables. At 11 p.m. i've gone to bed (taken one teaspoon of honey first) and i slept until 4 a.m. when i suddently woken up with a major status of alertness. I forced myself to the bed, trying to sleep some more, and i fell asleep at 6 a.m. until 11:30 a.m. , after waking up i've taken 3g of liquid piracetam, 1 capsule of multivitaminic and 500 mg of krill oil. After 45 mins i had a breakfast with organic scrambled eggs, zucchini and carrots -no bread- and a cup of orange juice with no sugar. Around 3 p.m. i've alerted drowsiness but i resisted. Now it's 9:03 p.m. and i'm almost perfectly awake with no drowsiness. I've eaten a lot of black cabbage and roasted pork -no bread-.

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(last updates and more questions about piracetam and choline)

It has been three days since i flipped my biorythm, forcing me to go to sleep at 11:00 p.m.

The fact is that i'm constantly waking up at 4:00 a.m. / 4:30 a.m. in an almost sharp status for about 30/60 minutes, then i start to feel sleepy/stunned and in the past two days i finished to restart to sleep from 6:00 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. ; Today, instead, i'm skipping this second sleeping stage, because i don't feel sleepy enough. So i tried to have an energyzing breakfast at 7:30 a.m., but since i still don't have enough recipes in order to make BF coffee or BF tea, i decided to make green tea mixed with dark chocolate and wolfberries, along with multivitaminic supplement, 500 mg of krill oil and 3g of liquid Piracetam.

The fact is: after that, i didn't feel energized enough, instead i became very stunned but i didn't feel enought drowsiness to fall asleep, so, assuming that was the effect of a lack of acetylcholine, I took at 8:50 a.m. 600 mg of choline alfoscerate, and now (after 10/15 minutes) i'm feeling better: the brain fog has almost vanished, but i don't feel very sharp, i'm still a bit tired, like i've a lack of sleep -which i have-. The fact is that i'm not sure about the brain fog was caused by Piracetam, because, before i flipped my biorythm, when i was taking Piracetam without Choline, conversely the brain fog vanished, and if i took Choline supplement it returned back. Maybe it's just that i'm passing trough a mid-fase and my biorythm hasn't fully syncronized yet and led S.A.D. light will help me -when it arrives... hoping that it will be dispatched soon-, but why choline now has this effect on me, is it placebo?

I haven't found any precise information about piracetam and choline, it seems that dosage and the relationship between them is highly subjective. I don't know if split the piracetam dose between morning and afternoon, don't know if to take more or less, don't know if take a choline supplement and in what form. I don't know even whether it is appropriate to take a different form of racetam, like aniracetam or oxiracetam. It would be helpful if some "racetam veteran" gives me some hints, considering my history and my symptoms.

For those who don't want to read all the history, here are the straight questions:

"About Nootropics and Piracetam: i've starded 9 days ago by taking a super-dose of 6g (at 5 p.m.) plus 600 mg of choline after dinner. The next day i took 3 g of piracetam and no choline because i didn't feel headaches -i didn't feel headaches with 6g of piracetam aswell - and i kept taking the same dosage for the next days.
4 days ago i flipped my biorythm and so i took my 3g dose in the morning along with breakfast (green tea mixed with dark chocolate and wolfberries, along with multivitaminic supplement, 500 mg of krill oil and 3g of liquid Piracetam.).
The fact is: after that, i didn't feel energized enough, instead i became very stunned but i didn't feel enought drowsiness to fall asleep, so, assuming that was the effect of a lack of acetylcholine, I took at 8:50 a.m. 600 mg of choline alfoscerate, and after 10/15 minutes i started to feel better: the brain fog has almost vanished, but i didn't feel very sharp, i was a bit tired, like i had a lack of sleep -which i have-. The fact is that i'm not sure about the brain fog was caused by Piracetam, because, before i flipped my biorythm, when i was taking Piracetam without Choline, conversely the brain fog vanished, and if i took Choline supplement it returned back. Maybe it's just that i'm passing trough a mid-fase and my biorythm hasn't fully syncronized yet, but why does choline now have this effect on me, is it placebo?" -cut from the original topic form bulletproofexec and modified a little bit-
Today i'm experiencing the same thing, with the exception that choline at the same dosage seems to have a minor effect and i'm also experiencing irregular pulsations on the right sided temple. I'm considering to start taking centrophenoxine as choline supplement, how would you insert this in my stack, which dosage? Is 250 mg in the morning and 250 mg in the afternoon an ok dose to start with? I'm considering to assume a minor dose of piracetam (1200 mg in the morning + 1200 in the afternoon). Anyway, what would you do in my situation?


"My doctor told me the Piracetam liquid form is more effective, problem is it's not cheap; do you have any suggestions in order to economize the nootropic therapy or any other more effective racetam that fits better my needs?
What do you think about Modafinil, could it benefit for my situation?
Do you have any other nootropics to suggest?"

I'm sorry for my english, hope it is understandable.

Edited by Laz34, 14 March 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[Laz34]

I'm thinking to make a stack based on Trubrain dosages in order to make piracetam work well:

Piracetam 2.4g
ALCAR 375mg
CDP-Choline 375mg
Krill oil 1g (EPA 0,120/DHA 0,55)
Magnesium 120mg
L-Theanine 300mg
Tyrosine 375mg

Pramiracetam 300 mg occasionally.

The fact is that i don't know how to split this stack between morning and afternoon.

What do you think about taking Aniracetam 200mg plus Oxiracetam 180mg instead of Piracetam on daily basis?

Edited by Laz34, 15 March 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[xks201]

These choline deficiency symptoms you speak of are potentially the same as choline excess symptoms in some people. I would treat the sleep order with something other than race tams.

[Laz34]

These choline deficiency symptoms you speak of are potentially the same as choline excess symptoms in some people. I would treat the sleep order with something other than race tams.

I'm using melatonin 1mg plus agomelatin 25mg everyday at 23:00.

I should use also S.A.D. led light during the morning for 45 minutes (i'm waiting for it to be dispatched).

I would take racetams and other supplements just to feel better during daytime.

If you have any suggestions, I'd be glad if you let me know.

[mrd1]

Piracetam 1.2g or 2.4g or 4.8g or 9.6g 2x a day with 2.4 or 4.8 being the single doses with the strongest research* (with the exception being 9.6 being possibly superior in demonstrating clinical efficacy) I personally use 4.8g 1-3x daily.
ALCAR 625 mg 2x day (see examine.com)
CDP-Choline 625 2x a day (see examine.com)
Krill oil 1-2g 2x a Day
Magnesium 120-250 2x a day
L-Theanine 50 mg or 100 mg 2x a day (or, 200 mg 2x a day with 100-200 mg of caffeine 2x a day) (see examine.com)
Tyrosine I'd skip entirely check out pubmed the research on this is blah I actually have a half a kilo on my desk I could couldnt justify using
Aniracetam (50 or 100 mg/kg)/10 if you want possible effects on things like anxiety and mood or (10-50 mg/kg)10 for its nootropic effects 2x daily (I take 625 or 1200 mg 1-3x daily)

I am not familar enough with pramiracetam to comment however, I have recieved great benefit from its two proposed mechanisms of action as a nitrous oxide synthase inhibitor and a High Uptake Choline Affinitty transporter inhibitor but, I use Lithium Carbonate and Coluracetam for these effects.



The fact is that i don't know how to split this stack between morning and afternoon.

What do you think about taking Aniracetam 200mg plus Oxiracetam 180mg instead of Piracetam on daily basis?

Oxiracetam's real only undebatable benefit over piracetam is that you only need 1/5th of the dose which many be of use to those who struggle complying with swallowing many pills. However, the drug back that is it doesn't have mainstream medical use as a prescription drug (although it is likely just as safe) and there is a extreme amount of research on piracetam.

Edited by mrd1, 16 March 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Introspecta]

Have you tried using low dose caffiene with your piracetam. I found caffiene was greatly potentiated especially in my early years of piracetam experimentation. I've also found that it can at times be hit or miss. It seemed to always clear my head and allow me to focus more in my early years and now not so much but there were always times when I took it and still felt sleepy. I think if you want to gain the best benefits from piracetam it should be used with a healthy diet and exercise. Piracetam was never a magic pill. It worked better for me when I was more healthy and at times seemed to do nothing. In the beginning it almost always brightened colors for me and made me feel more sharp. Are you experiencing the known positives from it? Wakefulness, color enhancement and better focus?


High dose Fish oil seemed to enhance effects of piracetam and would cover any Choline deficiencies if there happened to be any but its been proven that piracetam really doesn't need a choline source it just seems to work better with one. It can get expensive high dosing fish oil though.

[8bitmore]

I'm using melatonin 1mg plus agomelatin 25mg everyday at 23:00.

That may be more melatonin than is good for you - many people do well on mcg dosages (break pills with knife or get lab grade scale).

Discussion and ideas on melatonin use: http://www.longecity...5164-melatonin/

[Laz34]

Are you experiencing the known positives from it? Wakefulness, color enhancement and better focus?

Better word-seeking in intermittent phases during the day, same thing to focus. Can't tell you about color enhancement on certain basis. No significative working memory enhancement (maybe slightly), but it's still too early to judge properly.

I wanted to ask, expecially to mrd1, what use should i consider for racetams in general. Do i have to cycle them -maybe insert them in my stack during only certain periods: study sessions etc.- or i can take them without cycling, as the normal supplements, without expecting any collateral effect? I've read in the maze of this forum that piracetam could generate a neurotoxic activity in presence of an excess of glutamate, is that true? What kinds of elements/foods should i avoid, expecially when i'm taking piracetam or other racetams?

EDIT. Are there any studies or even opinions regarding how racetams affects I.Q. in positive or negative way either?
EDIT2. How about lions mane mushroom extract, should i insert it in my stack with no problems?

Edited by Laz34, 17 March 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[mrd1]

I have yet to come across a single research paper suggesting that racetams should be cycled. Actually, if they do work than, it appears it would be from chronic exposure (meaning daily for long periods of time). However, with that being said, some research does show that acute (meaning one single dosage) could be beneficial in some cases like during cornary bypass surgery to help speed up cognitive function recovery (51) (52).

The following uses of piracetam do not use cycling
Memory and cognition in healthy subjects (Dimond & Brouwers, 1976) (Wulsher C et al, 1979)
Dyslexia (Wilsher, 1986)
Epilepsy and Seizure (Libov et al, 2007)
Stroke (Gungor et al, 2011)
hyperactive disorders (acute stroke, type II Diabetes, Raynaud's) (Treatment of Acute Ischemic Stroke With Piracetam)(Evers & Grotemeyer KH, 1999)

And has been shown in general that Racetams in general have little side effects and low toxicity rates even when taking up to 12 g (of piracetam) for 8 weeks (Gouliaev & Senning, 1994) (Guirges, 1977)(De Reuck & Vleymen, 1999)

Therefore, I would suggest you take the racetams on a daily basis as having exposure day after day seems to be protocol in the majority of research with positive outcomes. And, many even stating chronic exposure for days being needed before some of the effects even become apparent.

Lion Mane Mushroom is likely safe as doses of up to 5g/kg are safe in rats. *However this is a mixture of panax ginseng and lions mane. (Park ID et al., 2008)

Perhaps the most promising study involving lions mane mushroom was where the amount of nerve growth factor in the hippocampus when given to rats at 5% of their diet increased for a period of seven days to around 1.3 of control. However, one legitimate critism is that it failed to altered NGF in the cortex. ( Mori K et al., 2008)

Overall, I personally ingest lions mane mushroom because it seems to be very well tolerated and may provide benefit. However, much of the human research is either of a small sample size, not double blind, or doesn't report "jaw dropping" effects. However, the overall tolerability does make it still worth consideration, IMO.

Edited by mrd1, 17 March 2014 - 07:38 PM.