• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Study doubts saturated fat's link to heart disease

saturated fat heart disease

  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#1 PWAIN

  • Guest
  • 1,288 posts
  • 241
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:39 PM


Seems that saturated fat is not the bad guy after all...

http://www.theage.co...0318-3502m.html


Many of us have long been told that saturated fat, the type found in meat, butter and cheese, causes heart disease. But a large and exhaustive new analysis by a team of international scientists found no evidence that eating saturated fat increased heart attacks and other cardiac events.
The new findings are part of a growing body of research that has challenged the accepted wisdom that saturated fat is inherently bad for you and will continue the debate about what foods are best to eat.
For decades, health officials have urged the public to avoid saturated fat as much as possible, saying it should be replaced with the unsaturated fats in foods like nuts, fish, seeds and vegetable oils.
But the new research, published on Monday in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine, did not find that people who ate higher levels of saturated fat had more heart disease than those who ate less. Nor did it find less disease in those eating higher amounts of unsaturated fat, including monounsaturated fat like olive oil or polyunsaturated fat like corn oil.
Advertisement
"My take on this would be that it's not saturated fat that we should worry about" in our diets, said Dr. Rajiv Chowdhury, the lead author of the new study and a cardiovascular epidemiologist in the department of public health and primary care at Cambridge University.
But Dr. Frank Hu, a professor of nutrition and epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health, said the findings should not be taken as "a green light" to eat more steak, butter and other foods rich in saturated fat. He said that looking at individual fats and other nutrient groups in isolation could be misleading, because when people cut down on fats they tend to eat more bread, cold cereal and other refined carbohydrates that can also be bad for cardiovascular health.
"The single macronutrient approach is outdated," said Hu, who was not involved in the study. "I think future dietary guidelines will put more and more emphasis on real food rather than giving an absolute upper limit or cutoff point for certain macronutrients."
He said people should try to eat foods that are typical of the Mediterranean diet, like nuts, fish, avocado, high-fiber grains and olive oil.
A large clinical trial last year, which was not included in the current analysis, found that a Mediterranean diet with more nuts and extra virgin olive oil reduced heart attacks and strokes when compared with a lower fat diet with more starches.
Alice H. Lichtenstein, a nutritional biochemist at Tufts University, agreed that "it would be unfortunate if these results were interpreted to suggest that people can go back to eating butter and cheese with abandon," citing evidence that replacing saturated fat with foods that are high in polyunsaturated fats - instead of simply eating more carbohydrates - reduces cardiovascular risk.
Lichtenstein, who was not involved in the latest study, was the lead author of the American Heart Association's dietary guidelines, which recommend that people restrict saturated fat to as little as 5 per cent of their daily calories, or roughly two tablespoons of butter or two ounces of Cheddar cheese for the typical person eating about 2,000 calories (around 8,400KJ) a day. The heart association states that restricting saturated fat and eating more unsaturated fat, beans and vegetables can protect against heart disease by lowering low-density lipoprotein or so-called bad cholesterol.
In the new research, Chowdhury and his colleagues sought to evaluate the best evidence to date, drawing on nearly 80 studies involving more than a half million people. They looked not only at what people reportedly ate but at more objective measures such as the composition of fatty acids in their bloodstreams and in their fat tissue. The scientists also reviewed evidence from 27 randomised controlled trials - the gold standard in scientific research - that assessed whether taking polyunsaturated fat supplements like fish oil promoted heart health.
The researchers did find a link between trans fats, the now widely maligned partially hydrogenated oils that had long been added to processed foods, and heart risks. But they found no evidence of dangers from saturated fat, or benefits from other kinds of fats.
The primary reason that saturated fat has historically had a bad reputation is that it increases low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, or LDL, the kind that raises the risk for heart attacks. But the relationship between saturated fat and LDL is complex, said Chowdhury. In addition to raising LDL cholesterol, saturated fat also increases high-density lipoprotein, or HDL, the so-called good cholesterol. And the LDL that it raises is a subtype of big, fluffy particles that are generally benign. Doctors refer to a preponderance of these particles as LDL pattern A.
The smallest and densest form of LDL is more dangerous. These particles are easily oxidized and are more likely to set off inflammation and contribute to the buildup of artery-narrowing plaque. An LDL profile that consists mostly of these particles, known as pattern B, usually coincides with high triglycerides and low levels of HDL, both risk factors for heart attacks and stroke.
The smaller, more artery-clogging particles are increased not by saturated fat, but by sugary foods and an excess of carbohydrates, Chowdhury said.
"It's the high carbohydrate or sugary diet that should be the focus of dietary guidelines," he said. "If anything is driving your low-density lipoproteins in a more adverse way, it's carbohydrates."
While the new research showed no relationship overall between saturated or polyunsaturated fat intake and cardiac events, there are numerous unique fatty acids within these two groups, and there was some indication that they are not all equal.
When the researchers looked at fatty acids in the bloodstream, for example, they found that margaric acid, a saturated fat in milk and dairy products, was associated with lower cardiovascular risk. Two types of omega-3 fatty acids, the polyunsaturated fats found in fish, were also protective. But a number of the omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, commonly found in vegetable oils and processed foods, may pose risks, the findings suggested.
The researchers then looked at data from the randomised trials to see if taking supplements like fish oil produced any cardiovascular benefits. It did not.
But Chowdhury said there might be a good explanation for this discrepancy. The supplement trials mostly involved people who had pre-existing heart disease or were at high risk of developing it, while the other studies involved generally healthy populations.
So it is possible that the benefits of omega-3 fatty acids lie in preventing heart disease, rather than treating or reversing it. At least two large clinical trials designed to see if this is the case are currently underway.
  • like x 3
  • dislike x 2
  • Informative x 1
  • Agree x 1
  • Disagree x 1

#2 Chupo

  • Guest
  • 321 posts
  • 230
  • Location:United States

Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:41 PM

When the researchers looked at fatty acids in the bloodstream, for example, they found that margaric acid, a saturated fat in milk and dairy products, was associated with lower cardiovascular risk.


I find this interesting. I wonder if it is the margaric acid itself or if it's just a marker for something else such as thinness. Overweight people are more likely to go for the skim milk and diet sodas. Stephen Guyenet posted about this as well. Incidentally, Guyenet is going to be presenting at the next annual Advanced Study Weekend. That ought to be interesting considering his views on saturated fat.
  • like x 2

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for NUTRITION to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 LexLux

  • Guest
  • 265 posts
  • 88
  • Location:London, UK
  • NO

Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:50 PM

I didn't find a link to the actual study on the news article? Personally I'm thinking that protein and inflammation are generally overlooked as a problem. Compounds like arachidonic acid and IGf-1 are also problematic in meat and dairy; IGF-1 content in dairy being a concern for cancer. I also don't agree with low carbs solving everything, these studies showed increased mortaility (all-cause):These studies looking at arteries and cardiovascular disease:I do agree on the transfats for sure!

Edited by LexLux, 21 March 2014 - 07:57 PM.

  • like x 1

#4 Jeoshua

  • Guest
  • 662 posts
  • 186
  • Location:North Carolina

Posted 21 March 2014 - 08:50 PM

Overweight people are more likely to go for the skim milk and diet sodas.


... and artificial sweeteners, and crash diets, and other such food substitutes. I'm glad I'm not the only one who suspects a link between these things.

I have always eaten whole foods, drunk whole milk, used real sugar, stayed away from anything artificial like nutrasweet or olestra, and I've always had TROUBLE gaining weight, even when I want to. And I've always noticed people who are overweight drinking diet soda and eating fat-free this and ultra-lite that. Food for thought.
  • like x 1
  • Enjoying the show x 1

#5 APBT

  • Guest
  • 906 posts
  • 389

Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:15 PM

Dietary fat and heart disease study is seriously misleading:
http://www.hsph.harv...ding/#more-9189
  • like x 1
  • Good Point x 1

#6 xEva

  • Guest
  • 1,594 posts
  • 24
  • Location:USA
  • NO

Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:36 AM

I always thought that heart disease was strongly linked with mouth bacteria, specifically periodontal disease.

As for the dietary fats, Bret Black started a good thread a while ago linking several studies that showed how bacteria (or just endotoxin they produce) in the GI tract hitch a ride with chylomicrons into the bloodstream and thus cause inflammation (people given antibiotics did not have a rise in inflammation after a high fat meal). Then several studies years back showed that arterial plaque contained various pathogens. IMO it's the body reaction to a low grade infection. Fat in the diet only aggravates it, and then only IF bacteria are present.

Edited by xEva, 24 March 2014 - 12:41 AM.


#7 Chupo

  • Guest
  • 321 posts
  • 230
  • Location:United States

Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:52 AM

I always thought that heart disease was strongly linked with mouth bacteria, specifically periodontal disease.

As for the dietary fats, Bret Black started a good thread a while ago linking several studies that showed how bacteria (or just endotoxin they produce) in the GI tract hitch a ride with chylomicrons into the bloodstream and thus cause inflammation (people given antibiotics did not have a rise in inflammation after a high fat meal). Then several studies years back showed that arterial plaque contained various pathogens. IMO it's the body reaction to a low grade infection. Fat in the diet only aggravates it, and then only IF bacteria are present.


Perhaps the anti-biotics cured SIBO. Chylomicrons are absorbed in the small intestine. Gut bacteria are meant to live in the large intestine. This could be why a diet high in both fat and sugar is bad.

#8 xEva

  • Guest
  • 1,594 posts
  • 24
  • Location:USA
  • NO

Posted 24 March 2014 - 05:58 PM

Perhaps the anti-biotics cured SIBO. Chylomicrons are absorbed in the small intestine. Gut bacteria are meant to live in the large intestine. This could be why a diet high in both fat and sugar is bad.


SIBO = small intestinal bacterial overgrowth for those who could not guess it.

Yes, you're right, but I think that diagnosed SIBO is at the high end of the range of the number of bacteria found in the small intestine. The times when it was believed that a healthy person had absolutely no bacteria in the small intestine are long gone. Bacteria also arrive with food. Linked to SIBO is a much more commonly diagnosed low stomach HCl (or one can ran out of HCl by simply eating too much in one sitting).

But the most convincing in this regard are the studies that showed that a high-fat meal was followed by a rise of inflammatory markers, which people pre-treated with antibiotics did not have -- and their cohort were 'healthy volunteers'. [the ref is in that thread by Bret Black mentioned above].

#9 Chupo

  • Guest
  • 321 posts
  • 230
  • Location:United States

Posted 24 March 2014 - 10:05 PM

Of course you're right about the small intestine not being sterile. Just trying to reconcile this with people reducing inflammation on high fat diets.

Here is discussed how the body upregulates the immune system and mounts an attack on gut bacteria when endotoxin is detected.

This might help explain how, in this study, after 12 weeks, those on a low fat diet experienced impaired flow mediated dilation in response to a 900 calorie fat meal while it improved in the low carb, high fat group. The low fat group wouldn't have had any time to adapt and kill off the offending bacteria.

#10 Vardarac

  • Guest
  • 178 posts
  • 36
  • Location:San Francisco, CA

Posted 25 March 2014 - 06:14 AM

I always thought that heart disease was strongly linked with mouth bacteria, specifically periodontal disease.


I wonder. If gut bacteria producing inflammatory endotoxin contribute to vasoconstriction and inflammation (and therefore lead to heart disease), then perhaps mouth bacteria could do the same thing - just even worse due to the fact that there's no stomach acid killing off the bacteria or anything breaking down the proteins they produce, not to mention the possibility of direct paths to the bloodstream in the mouth. That, and perhaps there is this continual production of toxins in the mouth that is inevitably swallowed throughout the day, especially with poor hygiene habits.

I think I'm gonna go brush my teeth now.

#11 Guardian4981

  • Guest
  • 248 posts
  • 10
  • Location:Western New York

Posted 25 March 2014 - 06:04 PM

I can say anecdotely that when I increase sat fats my memory seems to suffer a bit, I have a harder time recalling various longer term things like the name of the diner I enjoyed 3 years ago.
  • like x 1

#12 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,002
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 25 March 2014 - 06:28 PM

Dietary fat and heart disease study is seriously misleading:
http://www.hsph.harv...ding/#more-9189


I think the person who says the study should be disregarded has an agenda and is misleading the public (perhaps intentionally).

This large and comprehensive study (epidemiological - so not a gold standard) shows no statistically relevant correlation between saturated fat intake and rates of CVD. This 100% contrary to what has been preached (yes preached, as if it were a religion) for decades in the U.S. - ie. that saturated fat is the absolute most "evil" substance you could ingest - practically guaranteeing a heart attack by age 40 (ok, maybe I exaggerate.... a little)

This study does not indicate that a high saturated fat diet is "the best thing ever", just that it is not linked with rates of CVD.
  • dislike x 2
  • like x 2
  • Agree x 1

#13 timar

  • Guest
  • 768 posts
  • 306
  • Location:Germany

Posted 26 March 2014 - 08:12 AM

Dietary fat and heart disease study is seriously misleading:
http://www.hsph.harv...ding/#more-9189


I think the person who says the study should be disregarded has an agenda and is misleading the public (perhaps intentionally).


You must be joking! The "person" you are talking about is Walter Willet, one of the world's most renowned nutritional epidemiologists, who, by the way, is notorious for always having opposed the indiscriminate demonization of dietary fats, which he criticised as being based on dogma rather than on data, even at a time when the overwhelming scientific consensus was against him. In fact, during the last several years he has published important papers rehabilitating full-fat dairy as heart-healthy and anti-obesogenic. I could not think of anyone less suspect of having an agenda, or "misleading the public", and I have only the utmost respect for his work.

That sentence indeed represents the cheapest, most lowbrow kind of response. Don't like the factual criticism Willet offers (including several grave factual errors he pointed out, which the study's authors have since hastily corrected and which almost lead to the retraction of the paper), but have no argument, whatsoever, to actually refute that criticism? Well, no problem, just go ad hominen and write something like the above.

Scientists Fix Errors in Controversial Paper About Saturated Fats

IMO, that paper is just another unfortunate example of the many shabby meta-analysis apparently designed to make big media headlines and grab the maximum amount of attention instead of advancing our scientific understanding of a given subject (in fact, such studies often effectively spread confusion and distract the public from the real state of knowledge, which drives researchers like Willet, having done years of tedious work to expand that knowledge, understandably mad). Such papers should ring an alarm bell regarding today's standards of scientific publishing.

Full disclosure: No, I'm neither a vegan nor a sat-fat-phobic, as you can see in the topic about my diet.

Edited by timar, 26 March 2014 - 08:47 AM.

  • like x 4
  • Good Point x 2
  • Informative x 1
  • Ill informed x 1

#14 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,002
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 26 March 2014 - 08:12 PM

Dietary fat and heart disease study is seriously misleading:
http://www.hsph.harv...ding/#more-9189


I think the person who says the study should be disregarded has an agenda and is misleading the public (perhaps intentionally).


You must be joking! The "person" you are talking about is Walter Willet, one of the world's most renowned nutritional epidemiologists, who, by the way, is notorious for always having opposed the indiscriminate demonization of dietary fats, which he criticised as being based on dogma rather than on data, even at a time when the overwhelming scientific consensus was against him. In fact, during the last several years he has published important papers rehabilitating full-fat dairy as heart-healthy and anti-obesogenic. I could not think of anyone less suspect of having an agenda, or "misleading the public", and I have only the utmost respect for his work.

That sentence indeed represents the cheapest, most lowbrow kind of response. Don't like the factual criticism Willet offers (including several grave factual errors he pointed out, which the study's authors have since hastily corrected and which almost lead to the retraction of the paper), but have no argument, whatsoever, to actually refute that criticism? Well, no problem, just go ad hominen and write something like the above.

Scientists Fix Errors in Controversial Paper About Saturated Fats

IMO, that paper is just another unfortunate example of the many shabby meta-analysis apparently designed to make big media headlines and grab the maximum amount of attention instead of advancing our scientific understanding of a given subject (in fact, such studies often effectively spread confusion and distract the public from the real state of knowledge, which drives researchers like Willet, having done years of tedious work to expand that knowledge, understandably mad). Such papers should ring an alarm bell regarding today's standards of scientific publishing.

Full disclosure: No, I'm neither a vegan nor a sat-fat-phobic, as you can see in the topic about my diet.



Thanks for the information Timar. In dietary discussions, there are many flame wars of course, and many people who say this study and that study should be dis-regarded/thrown out, often have an agenda. I have seen it so many times, that my first reaction is to just roll my eyes.
  • Cheerful x 1
  • Agree x 1

#15 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,002
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:08 PM

Now a new meta-analysis (a type of study of which I am not a big fan) suggests the dietary guidelines to significantly reduce fat consumption (a couple decades ago - to prevent heart disease) were nearly devoid of scientific evidence...which is something many members here have been pointing out for years now.

 

Note that the meta-analysis does not say fat is "good or bad", just that the extremely low dietary fat guidelines were not backed up by scientific evidence.

 

Based upon my layman's view of the evidence, on a macro-nutrient level, sugar/carbs has more negative affects on health than does fat. I follow a fairly low-carb diet plan.

 

http://www.theguardi...study-concludes

 


  • Agree x 1

#16 Darryl

  • Guest
  • 650 posts
  • 657
  • Location:New Orleans
  • NO

Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:08 PM

That lead author also writes things like:

 

In terms of health and nutrition, fruit and veg have little to offer, and telling us to eat eight portions a day is compounding one of the worst health fallacies in recent history.

 

My thought, is if she could only find 6 trials with 2467 participants, she and the sports physiologist she's collaborating with are excluding studies with intent, and have an axe to grind. 

 

We'll never get the long-term metabolic ward study to settle the issue with finality. What's become very clear is that minor fiddling with macronutrient ratios within the normal Western range offers limited benefit.

 

There's a very strong circumstantial case that indicates LDL are the building blocks and endothelial inflammation the wrecking ball in coronary heart disease, and ample evidence that C12+ saturated fats, arachidonic acid, sugars, and high-glycemic index carbs contribute to one or both of these. MUFAs may not be much better. Cancer & kidney issues suggest protein intake moderate or restricted in at least one EAA, preferably methionine. The safest place to "hide" seems calorie restricted low-glycemic index carbs, and high ω-3/ω-6 ratio fats.

 


Edited by Darryl, 10 February 2015 - 11:09 PM.

  • Good Point x 2
  • Well Written x 1
  • WellResearched x 1
  • like x 1
  • Agree x 1

#17 Darryl

  • Guest
  • 650 posts
  • 657
  • Location:New Orleans
  • NO

Posted 11 February 2015 - 04:22 AM

I had to leave for dance class when composing prior post.  Adding to the calorie "refuges"... also true (C6-10) medium chain fatty acids, fermentable fiber (FODMAPS) and resistant starch. Jury's still kinda out on lauric acid (C12), as its predominantly processed like longer chain fatty acids, increases LDL somewhat, and activates Toll-like receptors in inflammatory initiation, but also has the strongest positive effect among fatty acids on HDL (for whatever that's worth). 



#18 Cris Barrows

  • Guest
  • 29 posts
  • 8
  • Location:Peoria, AZ, USA
  • NO

Posted 13 February 2015 - 04:52 AM

It seems that the reason why dietary guidelines in the USA still warn strongly against Saturated Fat is due almost entirely to political and economic inertia. There never was any science that showed SFA had any relationship to heart disease.

 

The history begins with Ancel Keys in the 1950s who finds excess cholesterol in the arteries of atherosclerosis victims and concludes that cholesterol causes CHD and therefore must be reduced. He then conducts a series of well designed trials to prove that dietary cholesterol will increase serum cholesterol. All his result were negative and he plainly stated that in his papers. Oddly enough it is only this week, some 60 years later that the dietary guidelines for the USA are about to drop the need to control dietary cholesterol.  

 

But Keys still needed to find what can cause cholesterol to rise and he found that SFA did indeed raise total cholesterol, and from that moment, through his significantly strong character and determination, whatever any other science might say, we have endured SFA phobia ever since. What he didn't know at the time was anything about LDL or HDL, or particle sizes, or oxidized LDL, etc. From the more recent studies - dietary SFA, particularly in the absence of carbohydrates, raises HDL far more than it raises LDL, but the LDL particles tend to be Type A and are benign. Triglycerides also tend to plummet on a high SFA low carb discipline. High Trigs and Low HDL are currently among the leading risk indicators of potential CHD.

 

Sweden in recent years has switched its dietary guidelines away from the USA style low fat high carb to HFLC. And while the USA has finally dropped (or about to) its insistence on low cholesterol foods, it is still pushing the outdated fat phobia message, and I think mainly because there is significant industry investment and careers depending on maintaining the status quo - there is no science to support the idea that SFAs do any harm, and recent studies show they are heart healthy.  


  • Ill informed x 2
  • Enjoying the show x 1
  • Dangerous, Irresponsible x 1
  • Agree x 1
  • like x 1

#19 timar

  • Guest
  • 768 posts
  • 306
  • Location:Germany

Posted 13 February 2015 - 10:37 PM

That lead author also writes things like:

 

In terms of health and nutrition, fruit and veg have little to offer, and telling us to eat eight portions a day is compounding one of the worst health fallacies in recent history.

 

My thought, is if she could only find 6 trials with 2467 participants, she and the sports physiologist she's collaborating with are excluding studies with intent, and have an axe to grind. 

 

Well, its doesn't get more obvious than that, does it?

 

"Studies" like that really drive me mad. They show everything that is wrong in scientific publishing today. Prestigeous publishers are increasingly following the same incentives as mainstream media ("Fox medicine", anyone? :ph34r:). They prefer the papers with the most publicity generating headlines and abstracts, written by authors who either have an ideological axe to grind or are simply out for publicity and maximum impact factor and whose egos tend to outweigh their scientific scrutiny. We have discussed a lot of examples here recently: The Flegal paper on the BMI, the "Enough is enough" editorial indiscriminately bashing all dietary supplements, Hazen's papers establishing cartinine and choline as the new dietary villains, the recent paper by Thomasetti and Vogelstein about Cancer being "just bad luck" and now this one (and I could add many more fitting into that category which haven't been as broadly discussed).

 

Of course the mainstream media happily conspire with the scientific publishers by reporting on their sensationalist press releases, over-simplifying the content even more, while leaving out the cautionary statements and adding some relativist mumbo-jumbo instead. And then there are all those dedicated bloggers and bestselling book authors (Taubes, Teichholz et al.) wo make a decent living out of telling poeple the things they like to hear and whose egos indeed outweight their journalistic scrutiny (and, I dare to add, probably their intelligence as well). Mrs. Harcombe however, deserved the accolade of being the first who has taken this colaboration one step further by simply authoring a paper herself, according to her journalistic needs. Maybe one day we can cut out those white collars alltogether and let journalists like Mrs. Harcombe do the job all by themselves.

 

The papers by Harcombe, Thomasetti/Vogelstein and Flegal are by far the worst of the bunch because they sell their message by appealing to a reactionary and basically anti-scientific "keep it up!" attitude, or the desire to forget about the consequences of our current life style: Stop worrying, just keep on eating the same crap you always did, it's actually good for you. It makes you overweight and hypercholesterolemic? No problem, that's good for you as well! Those tax payed eggheads got it all wrong, you know? They only want to patronize you anway (Oh, and by the way, there no such thing as man made global warming as well. Those liberals just really don't want you to enjoy life. So get into your pickup and on to our next drive-by!)
 


Edited by timar, 13 February 2015 - 10:58 PM.

  • Enjoying the show x 1
  • Ill informed x 1
  • Agree x 1

#20 Cris Barrows

  • Guest
  • 29 posts
  • 8
  • Location:Peoria, AZ, USA
  • NO

Posted 13 February 2015 - 11:10 PM

timar,

 

My thought, is if she could only find 6 trials with 2467 participants, she and the sports physiologist she's collaborating with are excluding studies with intent, and have an axe to grind.
 

 

The objective was to find trials that closely conformed to scientific method, these were the only ones that qualified. But these trials were also meant to show at the original time of publication that Saturated Fat was bad - they failed to do that but their sponsors simply ignored the results of what was good science. The dogma of the time, and still is - Sat Fat is bad and we will ignore anything that shows anything contrary whether excellent science or not. 

 

If the authors have an axe to grind then it was all about good science being deliberately ignored and bad science being allowed to prevail.

 

As for the media views - the authors are not responsible for how "science journalists" sensationalize and misinterpret science.

 

The paper also makes no mention of dietary advice or in any way references any publications or blogs maintained/written by the authors. The paper stands entirely on its own merit. Whether the authors gain or not from further publications is independent and irrelevant to the objectives and content of the paper. 

 

On the other hand you are suggesting widespread conspiracies and alternative agendas that simply cannot be a reasonable conclusion if you read the paper. 

 

But the essential issue that might be missed in the noise - there is no quality reliable science that shows or has ever shown that sat fat is harmful. You might have a case with your cynicism if you can point to a single quality RCT that shows without doubt that sat fat causes harm - they don't exist.


  • Enjoying the show x 1
  • Agree x 1

#21 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,002
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 15 August 2015 - 11:40 AM

Yet another meta analysis (not a "gold standard" study). http://www.kurzweila...d-heart-disease

 

No link between saturated fats and heart disease.

 

It is amazing to me that so many scientists, medical professionals, and nutritionists, were duped into shunning saturated fats...and actually pushed the consumption of trans-fats and margarine for decades. They actually pushed "poison" on people and caused the disease (heart disease) they were trying to prevent. Why is margarine still on store shelves?

 

To his credit, Walter Willet, mentioned earlier in this thread, and who used to be an anti-SFA warrior of sorts, has changed his mind due to the mounting evidence that SFA is not bad for health.


  • Agree x 2
  • Dangerous, Irresponsible x 1
  • Cheerful x 1
  • like x 1
  • Disagree x 1

#22 aza

  • Guest
  • 128 posts
  • 27
  • Location:aus
  • NO

Posted 16 August 2015 - 02:57 AM

Why is margarine still on store shelves?

 

Because there is a market for it :P

Over here in aus they at least have lowered the amount of transfats in it by quite a bit.

Still a terrible food though, pass me the butter and olive oil.
 

My pet peeve is when i go to a bbq and someone says they are bringing the butter, but they end up bringing margarine. :[]

Anyways, back to the topic of saturated fat, I was looking around for information on it the other day.

Mainly because while i believe it is wrongly vilified that doesnt mean that i think huge intakes don't come with any downsides.

So anyway, here are some estimates (although some are guesstimates to be honest) on how much hunter gatherers tend to eat (and the french).

The french eat around 15.5% and appear to do pretty well for themselves.

The average amount modern hunter gatherers eat in east africa, with the right side of the range being if they go for the fattier animals (which many tend to do) turns out to be anywhere between 12-20% sat fat, which is hardly specific.

The most i could imagine them eating is around 25% sat fat. Although some lower carb tribes probably exceeded that, and many island communities have exceeded that with coconuts.

 

Note that im not saying these levels are necessarily healthy. I just thought it was an interesting topic to research. I eat around 15%-20% personally.


Edited by aza, 16 August 2015 - 03:16 AM.


#23 Brett Black

  • Guest
  • 353 posts
  • 174
  • Location:Australia

Posted 16 August 2015 - 05:53 AM

I think one of, if not the central problems, is that nutritional studies as they have been formulated, have just almost universally resulted in very weak evidence. It seems standard practice for nutritional study designs to be fundamentally lacking. Usually they are overwhelmed by mountains of uncontrolled, unaccounted and unadjusted for variables.

 

This is what is bound to happen when observational epidemiology informs so much of the field. To make things still worse, the data from these studies is routinely derived from a very limited number of memory-based food questionaires that have repeatedly been shown to be highly inaccurate sources.

 

The interventional studies (which seem dwarfed by the number observational studies) are either so short that it's doubtful of their relevance to diet-related diseases which take decades to manifest, or are also poorly controlled. 

 

 

 

 

Implausible results in human nutrition research

 

BMJ 2013; 347 doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.f6698 (Published 14 November 2013) Cite this as: BMJ 2013;347:f6698

    John P A Ioannidis, professor of medicine, health research and policy, and statistics

    Author affiliations

    jioannid@stanford.edu

 

Definitive solutions won’t come from another million observational papers or small randomized trials

 

Research into human nutrition has been criticized on numerous occasions. Critics have focused on the poor track record of observational claims when tested in subsequent randomized trials (0/52 success rate in one review) and perpetuated fallacies.1 2 3 In contrast to major nutritional deficiencies and extreme cases, the effects of modest differences in nutrient intake have been difficult to study reliably at the population level. Nonetheless, some results, even of randomized trials, have been extremely promising.4 5 However, to establish a less controversial legacy for this important field, we should avoid past traps and be explicit about reasonable expectations. Implausible results that are “too good to be true” still threaten nutritional research on many fronts, including survey measurements, observational associations, treatment effects in randomized trials, and estimates of the impact on populations.

 

Nutritional intake is notoriously difficult to capture with the questionnaire methods used by most studies. A recent analysis showed that in the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, an otherwise superb study, for two thirds of the participants the energy intake measures inferred from the questionnaire are incompatible with life.6 More sophisticated measurements based on biochemical, web, camera, mobile, …

 

http://www.dcscience...trition-bmj.pdf

 

 

 

Here are some rather soul-searching responses to the above article:

http://www.bmj.com/c...rapid-responses

 

 

 

 


Edited by Brett Black, 16 August 2015 - 06:46 AM.

  • Good Point x 1
  • like x 1
  • Agree x 1

#24 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 17 August 2015 - 02:19 AM

Nutritional epidemiology is hard, and long large-scale metabolic ward studies are nearly impossible.  That doesn't mean you can't get useful information from properly conducted observational studies or from small controlled trials.  Ioannidis likes to shoot from the hip and makes makes headline-grabbing statements that aren't all that well supported.  I think the rapid responses in BMJ that Brett linked are telling.


  • Good Point x 1
  • like x 1

#25 aza

  • Guest
  • 128 posts
  • 27
  • Location:aus
  • NO

Posted 17 August 2015 - 03:58 AM

I wonder if other nutrients adjust the overall effect of saturated fat, or nutrient deficiencies.

This study is interesting http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20463040

"Adipose tissue 9c,11t-CLA was associated with a lower risk of MI in basic and multivariate models. Compared with the lowest quintile, odds ratios and 95% CIs were 0.80 (0.61, 1.04) for the second, 0.86 (0.64, 1.14) for the third, 0.62 (0.46, 0.84) for the fourth, and 0.51 (0.36, 0.71) for the fifth quintiles (P for trend <0.0001). Dairy intake was not associated with risk of MI, despite a strong risk associated with saturated fat intake."

"All subjects lived in Costa Rica-a country that uses traditional pasture-grazing for dairy cows."

No clue how they ended up with the result that dairy was not associated with MI but saturated fat was. Since the people eating higher amounts of saturated fat would be the ones with the highest amount of cla


Edited by aza, 17 August 2015 - 04:32 AM.


#26 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,002
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 17 August 2015 - 06:10 PM

Also, I speculate (so don't hit the "needs references" button), that one needs to take into account the cooking method. Traditionally, most foods that contain saturated fat (mostly animal products) are cooked with high heat, which is known to be bad for health (http://www.lifeexten...o-Death/Page-01)

 

The few studies that have shown small negative health effects from the consumption of saturated fat could just be due to the cooking method. When people eat eggs, most of the time they are fried. Except for sushi, when most people eat fish, it is fried. Almost all meat is cooked with high heat.


  • Disagree x 1

#27 aza

  • Guest
  • 128 posts
  • 27
  • Location:aus
  • NO

Posted 18 August 2015 - 03:18 AM

 

The few studies that have shown small negative health effects from the consumption of saturated fat could just be due to the cooking method. When people eat eggs, most of the time they are fried. Except for sushi, when most people eat fish, it is fried. Almost all meat is cooked with high heat.

 

Ah yeah, because of compounds like HCA's. At least some of that problem can be reduced by gentle cooking and marinating food.

Also, interesting enough grass fed meat might be more stable.

 

Lipid and colour stability of meat from lambs fed fresh herbage or concentrate. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20416762

 

"Lipid oxidation was measured in both minced cooked meat (semimembranosus muscle, SM) over 4days of aerobic refrigerated storage and on minced raw meat stored over 14days in a high oxygen atmosphere."

"We conclude that, under conditions that promote oxidative stress in meat, a herbage-based diet can improve the oxidative stability of meat compared to a concentrate-based diet."

 

I'd imagine that using a stable oil, lightly cooking, marinating and using grass fed meat would make a massive difference all up. It would also probably have lower amounts of oxidized cholesterol, as well as lower amounts of other oxidized plant sterols (which would mainly be found in vegetable oil i think) which could potentially be around as bad.

Oxidised plant sterols as well as oxycholesterol increase the proportion of severe atherosclerotic lesions in female LDL receptor+/ - mice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23773414

 

"In the LDLR+/ - mice, serum levels of cholesterol, lipoprotein profiles, cholesterol exposure and inflammatory markers at the end of the experiment were comparable between the three diet groups. Nevertheless, the proportion of severe atherosclerotic lesions was significantly higher after oxysterol (41 %; P= 0·004) and oxyphytosterol (34 %; P= 0·011) diet consumption than after control diet consumption (26 %). Oxyphytosterol levels in the lesions were the highest in the oxyphytosterol group. Here, we show that not only dietary oxysterols but also dietary oxyphytosterols increase the proportion of severe atherosclerotic lesions. This suggests that plant sterols when oxidised may increase atherosclerotic lesion severity instead of lowering the size and severity of lesions when fed in their non-oxidised form. Therefore, this finding might give an indication as to where to find the answer in the current hot debate about the potential atherogenicity of plant sterols. However, to what extent these results can be extrapolated to the human situation warrants further investigation."

 



#28 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,002
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 07 September 2015 - 04:50 PM

http://news.bitofnew...a-huge-mistake/

 

"The war on fat was a huge mistake"....as LongeCity members have been saying for years, maybe even a decade. It is correct to call the anti-fat hysteria a "Crusade". It was always based on more dogma (with religious fervor) than actual science.

 

The "French Paradox" was never a paradox. Traditional French cuisine had a lot of fat (lard in particular). It was not bad for them. That is why they didn't get heart disease. 


Edited by Mind, 08 September 2015 - 06:59 PM.

  • like x 2
  • Dangerous, Irresponsible x 1
  • Disagree x 1

#29 timar

  • Guest
  • 768 posts
  • 306
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 September 2015 - 08:45 AM

*yawn*

 

There's really nothing new or controversial about such a statement. It may have been twenty years ago, but it has long become a platitude. Walter Willet and the HSPS have said so for about two decades, and within the last decade it has become the mainstream position in nutritional science. Consequentially, the 2015 US dietary guidelines abandon any recommendations towards a reduced fat diet.

 

Some authors however, like to piggy-back on this trend to promote the consumption of high saturated-fat diets. This is an all too simplistic misconception. As wrong as it once was to undiscriminatingly demonize dietary fat per se, it is just as wrong and much more stupid now to absolve saturated fats.

 

The evidence is clear and consistent, though. (Most) saturated fat is still unhealthy. Maybe not quite as unhealthy as thought before, but still at least equally unhealthy as refined carbohydrates (which we now know to be a culprit). Monounsaturated fat is healthier than both, and polyunsaturated fat is not only essential but clearly improves vascular health, as long as it comes in an overall balanced omega 3/6 ratio (< 1:5).


Edited by timar, 08 September 2015 - 08:48 AM.

  • like x 2
  • Needs references x 1
  • Ill informed x 1
  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#30 ceridwen

  • Guest
  • 1,292 posts
  • 102

Member Away
  • Location:UK

Posted 08 September 2015 - 10:21 AM

So it wasn't the Resveratrol after all? In fact when I was in France most of the people I knew drank beer not wine but there were a lot of baguettes too.
Maybe it's genetic





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: saturated fat, heart disease

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users