10 replies to this topic

[protoject]

Hi,

as you guys probably know, I have severe chronic sleep issues, and possibly anxiety.

Pregabalin practically cures my sleep issue, however it leaves me with side effects during the day that almost defeat the purpose of taking it.

 

I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for an alternative.

 

I can't take benzos nor gaba-a/gaba-b agonists for the issue.

Also can't take kratom or kava,

nor can i use melatonin / 5htp/ tryptophan/ valerian/ passion flower/ lemon balm/ etc.

cant use mirtazapine, nor any antihistamines really.

already using trazodone but only for sleep initiation (doesn't help maintenence or sleep time/depth)

 

Need something heavy duty but also without leaving me feeling messed up for the remainder of the day...

 

if there's no alternative I was wondering if there is anything that would reverse the pharmacological effects of the drug during the day without causing me anxiety.....

 

(I know the following don't necessarily involve reversal of the pharmacological effect, but I can't use caffeine, amphetamines, ephedrine, ginseng,  tyrosine, iodine, nor modafinil)

 

this is probably a long shot but I thought you guys might have some knowledge.. if it doesn't show up now then perhaps in the future it will

 

if you came up with a good answer I'd be beyond happy

 

 

Edited by protoject, 09 April 2014 - 08:41 PM.

[adamh]

Do you have any idea of how many people are looking for this exact same thing? Its like the holy grail, I forget what percentage of people have occasional or frequent insomnia but there are millions in usa alone. I am one of those sufferers, what I've found that helps is 2gm theanine per day plus holy basil and ashwaganda. Those don't always do it but adding passionflower often helps. Why can't you take those things you mentioned? How much pregabalin do you take for sleep? That is one thing I haven't tried yet.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I suddenly realized pregabalin is lyrica which I have tried and you are right, too many side effects. 

Edited by adamh, 09 April 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[protoject]

Do you have any idea of how many people are looking for this exact same thing? Its like the holy grail, I forget what percentage of people have occasional or frequent insomnia but there are millions in usa alone. I am one of those sufferers, what I've found that helps is 2gm theanine per day plus holy basil and ashwaganda. Those don't always do it but adding passionflower often helps. Why can't you take those things you mentioned? How much pregabalin do you take for sleep? That is one thing I haven't tried yet.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I suddenly realized pregabalin is lyrica which I have tried and you are right, too many side effects. 

 

Hi, thanks for the reply. I've tried all the things you mentioned and none of them work. And when I say none.. I mean none. Passionflower does have some potential for sleep initiation for me but then I will wake up wired as hell.

 

Most of the things I bothered to say "I cant take those" is because they are either a) completely ineffective b) make things worse  c)  give me side effects without being effective...

 

I think I have tried almost everything... Pregabalin is pretty much the holy grail except plus side effects unfortunately...  I heard Atagablin was in the works in research for insomnia, and I'm hoping that will be the "upgrade" from pregabalin... Since for me pregabalin was definitely the upgrade from Gabapentin

 

not sure if youre familiar with my efforts either but I did find another research med that works as well called Eplivanserin, which worked, i wanted to explore more of those types of drugs but honestly they aren't very availible nor affordable right now

Edited by protoject, 10 April 2014 - 05:57 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

Inhaling Lavender oil + a few drops orally. This stuff worked surprisingly well for me, whereas GABAergics (passion flower, Phenibut, ashwagandha) have lost their real effects, and even Pregabalin I tried didn't induce this type of relaxation. It's quite a wonderful feeling and at the same time certain calm lucidity it induces. It's cheap so definitely worth a try in my humble opinion.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22612017

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3612440/

 

 

 

4.4. Sleep and Lavender

Lavender has been suggested as an excellent natural remedy to treat insomnia and improve the sleep quality. Single-blind randomized studies investigated the effectiveness of lavender odor on quality of sleep showed that lavender improved the mean scores of sleep quality in fifteen healthy students [74], in sixty-four ischemic heart disease patients [75], and in thirty-four midlife women with insomnia [76]. Ten individuals with insomnia, verified by a score of 5 or more on the Pittsburgh Sleep Quality Index (PSQI), were treated with lavender odor. Six to eight drops of lavender oil added each night to the cartridge improved the PSQI score by −2.5 points. More notable improvements were seen in females and younger participants. Milder insomnia also improved more than severe ones [77]. Oral lavender oil preparation (80mg/day) showed a significant beneficial influence on quality and duration of sleep and improved general mental and physical health without causing any unwanted sedative or other drug specific effects in 221 patients suffering from subsyndromal (mixed) anxiety disorder [52]. A mixture of essential oils including lavender, basil, juniper, and sweet marjoram is shown to reduce sleep disturbance and improve overall well-being in older patients [78]. In a clinical study on four benzodiazepine dependent geriatric patients, there was a significant decrease in sleep duration by stopping benzodiazepine treatment, which was restored to previous levels by substitution of aromatherapy with lavender oil. This study suggested that ambient lavender oil might be used as a temporary relief from continued medication for insomnia and reduces the side-effects of these drugs [79]. In a study on thirty-one hospitalized patients, administration of lavender odor showed a trend towards an improved quality of daytime wakefulness and more sustained sleep at night [80]. In contrary to these data, it should be noted that the use of aromatherapy massage with lavender oil has no beneficial effect on the sleep patterns of children with autism attending a residential school. It was suggested that this therapy may show greater effects in the home environment or with longer-term interventions [81].

 

 

Edited by Galaxyshock, 10 April 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[penisbreath]

Have you tried Resistant Starch? One of the ultra-apparent effects was improvement in sleep quality, plus ability to function on reduced sleep. Didn't help with initiation, however. 

[focus83]

I would advise Baclofen. It works very well for me for more than a year now. I take 25mg in the evening. You maybe need more than that.

It relaxes me nicely and gives me very restful sleep. It also has no tolerance issues like Phenibut or most other GABAergic substances have.

[Olon]

Lavender oil is also a calcium-channel blocker, but with shorter half-life than pregabalin.

[Galaxyshock]

Lavender oil is also a calcium-channel blocker, but with shorter half-life than pregabalin.

 

Good to know. The shorter half-life probably explains the lack of side effects after.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

protoject, you and I have spoke of this before (specifically about Eplivanserin). I think back right after you started this topic:

 

http://www.longecity...erent-approach/

I have similar issues although I can take almost anything, but the effects, if any, disappear quickly. With the right combo of things now I can get to sleep but its short lived, poor quality and lacking in delta/deep sleep. I was using 800mg a day with a max titrated up to 1.8g of Neurontin (Gabapentin) with no real results.in nerve pain or sleep quality. I haven't tried Lyrica (Pregabalin) or for that matter as someone mentioned baclofen. I did initially get very good sleep while on a tricyclic muscle relaxant Flexeril (cyclobenzaprine), but that was short lived as even a low dose I developed tachycardia after a few hours into sleep which would wake me.

 

One thing that seems to get me to stay asleep now is very strenuous exercise in the day. I'm still not getting much deep sleep (which ironically I need more of from the physical recovery of exercise), but I can at least sleep 4-6 hours (and occasionally longer) as long as I take my cocktail of sleep supplements, put in the ear plugs, turn on some white noise, turn down the thermostat, wear my snug Tempur-Pedic sleep mask to keep the light out, etc.

 

[ZHMike]

Maybe try gabapentin, lyrica is converted to gabapentin, but maybe plain gabapentin would be worth a shot.  Gabapentin is actually more sedating that lyrica so it might be an option. 

[protoject]

 

One thing that seems to get me to stay asleep now is very strenuous exercise in the day. I'm still not getting much deep sleep (which ironically I need more of from the physical recovery of exercise), but I can at least sleep 4-6 hours (and occasionally longer) as long as I take my cocktail of sleep supplements, put in the ear plugs, turn on some white noise, turn down the thermostat, wear my snug Tempur-Pedic sleep mask to keep the light out, etc.
 

was using 800mg a day with a max titrated up to 1.8g of Neurontin (Gabapentin) with no real results.in nerve pain or sleep quality. I haven't tried Lyrica (Pregabalin) or for that matter as someone mentioned baclofen. I did initially get very good sleep while on a tricyclic muscle relaxant Flexeril (cyclobenzaprine), but that was short lived as even a low dose I developed tachycardia after a few hours into sleep which would wake me.

Hi Gw Gatson, Yeah I hope I can get high grade eplivanserin soon. I'm considering shelling out a mass amount of money which I dont truly have over to T&W for eplivanserin, or nelotanserin, 'cuz Im desperado for my DIY "science experiment at home". (er, well, bioassay). I figure that if T&Ws eplivanserin is high grade, then maybe I can get away with even less milligrams per dose, hence even though I'd still be paying a shit load, at least it would be less money per month. My huge concerns would be about whether the quality is high quality, and if it's human grade etc. as this is a research med. Im not even sure it's being used in studies much at this time. T&W always gives me awesome quality and that's the only reason I'm considering shelling some money out.

 

As per pregabalin, while I can't guarantee that it will be wonderful for you, for some people it is. For me it's amazing for sleep, but kinda mashes my brain and interacts with my already dysthymic/ disorganized state so the next day I'm really slow. I highly recommend that you try it because it is way more effective than Gabapentin. Gabapentin was one of those drugs that stopped working in terms of therepeutic effects but still left me with shitty side effects, and that was not fun. Gabapentin seems much more prone to tolerance as well. in terms of meds losing effects for you, in the case that pregabalin would lose effect , it would simply boil down to you either lowering your dosage for a few days or just not taking it for 2 days or so. You might even be able to get away with 1 day but obviously 2 would work better. Then your tolerance should go back down again and you will get the therepeutic effect. This is my experience and I've heard some others have had the same experience.

 

The whole thing about trying to regain sleep is that while my mind is kind of mashed from being on drugs now, sleeping more hours over the long term actually improves my state of health in the long term. I just wish I could switch over to eplivanserin. (I have it but I am not taking the one that i have because , even though I dont doubt its genuinity, I do have questions about purity from that particular supplier and don't wanna do myself over)...

 

and yes all the things you said help... I find the white noise + eye mask helps a lot in conjunction with the meds. Even with the meds I found that I needed to get dosage timing and dosage level to be appropriate to get the best effects.

 

Maybe try gabapentin, lyrica is converted to gabapentin, but maybe plain gabapentin would be worth a shot.  Gabapentin is actually more sedating that lyrica so it might be an option. 

Hi Zhmike, I did try it, I tried gabapentin before pregabalin actually. I heard pregabalin was the upgraded version of gabapentin, more potency per mg. and less complications. When I first took gabapentin it was amazing. However the tolerance level goes way up and then I was left with a bunch of side effects but it wasn't deepening my sleep very well. I can tell you that since I switched to pregabalin it has been a much better experience. If I could get the magic back of gabapentin I think I would go that route but unfortunately it's not gonna happen lol ... :( (one time I  got high on gabapentin too, it was amazing, melted away all my anxiety. it was my second time ever though and I got high by accident. I felt pretty damned clear headed )

 

I would advise Baclofen. It works very well for me for more than a year now. I take 25mg in the evening. You maybe need more than that.

It relaxes me nicely and gives me very restful sleep. It also has no tolerance issues like Phenibut or most other GABAergic substances have.

 

Hi Focus, I do have baclofen on hand. Generally I don't like to take Gaba agonists of any sort. I originally got baclofen because I did see some evidence that it can improve sleep. I was taking it for a while and felt like I got really moody on it, or was having some sort of withdrawal where I had to keep redosing all day (low doses). However I will reconsider this because at the time I was also taking Methylfolate, I believe.. so that may have been a confounding influence.  I have to be honest though I feel like I have some doubts about it because usually gaba agonists cause rebound in me. But hey, it's worth a shot i guess.

Edited by protoject, 12 April 2014 - 04:17 AM.