365 replies to this topic

[DJS]

Jay

And I realized that, as cool as the ability to experience color is—and as profound as it might be that the most intelligent software AI of the year 2300 won't be able to experience color—color vision might not be enough, nor sound, nor taste, nor spatial awareness... Consciousness, that thing we're trying to protect, isn't just about the quale of redness, a quale which I assume Don would agree that, if humans can experience it, then cows probably can too (unless they're color blind, but then they can at least experience the qualia of vision of some sort). But is it enough for cows to experience redness and pain? Perhaps experiencing pain is enough reason not to torture or otherwise cause them physical pain. But what about using them like slaves, even slaves to the slaughter for meat, if we keep them comfy, perhaps even give them "fun" things to do? Is that wrong if they can only experience some basic sensory qualia?

Lots of intelligence and the qualia of color isn't "consciousness". It's intelligence and the qualia of intelligence (e.g. things like the felt experience of thoughts, of self-reflection, of judgments, emotions, etc., etc.) that amounts to consciousness.

Well, we still disagree on whether there is a difference between intelligence and the "qualia of intelligence" but other than that, yeah, that's basically what I've been saying. [thumb]

I didn't see this one coming.

[scottl]

O positive, in fact. Why?

Heh.

Your call. If I tell you it could bias the experiement that I suggested.

[Set]

That has been my position from the beginning.

We're not talking about weather patterns or stock values.  We're discussing living things with minds not so different than our own. 

And somehow I doubt that any of the people who voted for treating animals better have investigated how well the animals they are eating have been treated.

You are a better man then I sir.
I enjoy Chicken, Tuna and Turkey.
But I agree with you.

[Mark Hamalainen]

May I suggest you try an experiment: eat meat every day for a week (whatever form you choose) keep some sort of record how you feel. Then don't eat any meat every day for a week, and note how you feel (and particularly any cravings for meat).

Such an experiment will surely fail for the average meat eater. Quitting meat cold turkey (what the hell is with these dead animal analogies anyways?) will definitely have an adverse effect if you are not comfortable and familiar with the proper vegetarian alternatives.

[scottl]

Such an experiment will surely fail for the average meat eater.  Quitting meat cold turkey (what the hell is with these dead animal analogies anyways?) will definitely have an adverse effect if you are not comfortable and familiar with the proper vegetarian alternatives.

The suggestion was made to Jay, and presumably Jay ain't the average meat eater since he is already eating somewhat veggie (least that was my impression).

I am willing to accept that I do not know what kind of diet is best for everyone (at least in certain ways....arsenic and hydrogenated fats are perhaps best avoided) and willng to let experience be their guide. One can coach them with the veggie cooking school of your choice for as long as you wish. Ain't gonna change reality.

A larger problem of which this is one example is to believe that one can reason out any problem and expect reality to always work out the way we think it will*. But that is another discussion.


*In medicine we say of cases like this that the patient didn't read the textbook.

Edited by scottl, 28 August 2005 - 11:40 AM.

[scottl]

Here is an example taken from another discussion (see soy milk and rice cakes thread in the nutrition forum) which makes my point.

The other anecdote from my life is my wife...In early adulthood, she did decide to become a vegetarian. She has strong moral objections to meat consumption, so would seem prime for the denial you mention. She felt horrible. Tired, run down, grumpy, the whole works. She held out for about half a year before returning to a diet high in animal products, and quickly returned to her usual cheerful healthy self. .

There are a number of people around like this. I can certainly come up with theories (rigth or wrong) to suggest why she is that way, but it does not matter. All that matters is that she honor her body by eating in a way apropriate to it.

[stormheller]

I've been vegetarian for over 12 years. Once I literally got sick from eating something that contained beef stock. Once you go veggie, you don't go back!

[brokenportal]

All the great injustices, like slavery, inequality between genders, tyranny and things like that have to and must be over come. The idea that we murder existing conciousnesses and mangle their dead carcasses with our faces for nutritional purposes when there are other alternatives is just one more injustice in the shortening line of injustices yet to be over come.

[scottl]

All the great injustices, like slavery, inequality between genders, tyranny and things like that have to and must be over come. The idea that we murder existing conciousnesses and mangle their dead carcasses with our faces for nutritional purposes when there are other alternatives is just one more injustice in the shortening line of injustices yet to be over come.

Now I remember why I don't post here much any more.

[brokenportal]

Oh, thanks.

My point may have not had a lot of meat to it, no pun intended, and to rephrase it, I was trying to convey that all through out history we have periods of time where we over come something negative that some people aggressively maintain is positive. Like how we put a stop to Hitlers idea that conquering other countries was alright, and how the Klan tried to stop civil rights but civil rights won out. I know this topic here had gotten deeper than my last entry and that my point was rather simplistic but I just wanted to throw it out there.

There will always be somebody who maintains that an injustice is really not one on such and such a grounds, but the point remains that conciousnesses are leaving existence. Is there really no way to live a healthy life with out eating meat? Is it worth experimenting with?

I mean, for instance to what degree does a childs body adapt to eating meat at an early age and integrate it into its system? Kind of like the concept of a childs body building up immunities to viruses that it will carry with it for its entire life.

We all know that the human machine can conceivably be manipulated to extend our healthy human life span. If some human bodies really do need meat to stay healthy and alive then do we have to accept that? Isnt that like the deathists who go no further than "well, we must die we must die, life is a never ending circle of cycles". The idea of perpetual animal death for sustanence is almost as aggregious as allowing human death under a deathist view isnt it?

In short, if our bodies thrive on animal death, maybe we should consider changing the way our bodies thrive.

Edited by brokenportal, 10 November 2005 - 11:20 PM.

[scottl]

Oh, thanks.
Is there really no way to live a healthy life with out eating meat? Is it worth experimenting with?

Please read my numerous posts on this issue.

Not eating meat will shorten MY lifespan. If that makes me morally inferior in the judgement of many here...

I am not alone, and while there are plenty of people who can thrive on a veggie diet, there are many who cannot (in my clinical experience).

Oh and who died and left you the arbiter or what is morally right i.e. why is it not enough for you to do whatever is appropriate for you, but why must you impose your will on others or consider them morally inferior. I guess moral relativism doesn't extend to meat eaters.

Fini.

[boily]

Pescetarian - don't use food products involving death of an animal, except fish/shellfish - Is what I voted.

I decided not to eat meat, chicken, pork etc. A new year resolution which I have kept for just about 6 months now. Also cut eggs out of diet.

After listening to an Anthony Robbins CD set called "Living Health", I made the decision. Definately worth a listen, it had a big impact on me indeed.

Feeling better than ever before on my current eating regime. Meat free and dairy free.

Protein sources for me now are: Sprouts, nuts, seeds, brown rice protein powder, spirulina, chlorella, chia seeds, salmon and sardines.(occasional tuna, also eating out have whatever fish is on the menu) Also isolated amino's - BCAA's, l-glutamine, l-arginine, creatine. Seeds, nuts and sprouts are about 20% protein, more than I had imagined.....

6 months on and no problems at all, endless energy and feeling radiant!

[spaceistheplace]

Omnivore

In my quest for a healthy body I have tried various diets. paleo, macrobiotic, blood type (O), vegetarian, vegan, but finally settled on an omnivorous diet. Becoming vegan was a big mistake for me. Always felt weak, fatigued, and listless (yes I supplemented extensively as well).

Everything I eat is local and organic. Grass fed beef and pork from the farmers market, and my garden is now providing us with tomatoes, potatoes, sweet peas, zucchini, onions, spinach, beets, and chard. We also keep egg laying chickens.

[Moonbeam]

All the great injustices, like slavery, inequality between genders, tyranny and things like that have to and must be over come. The idea that we murder existing conciousnesses and mangle their dead carcasses with our faces for nutritional purposes when there are other alternatives is just one more injustice in the shortening line of injustices yet to be over come.

(Where are the sad smilies?) Yea, you're totally right. I wish I didn't do that. I try to keep it to a minimum, but still, I never can quite do it. So I had to vote meat-eater, but I'm on the lower end of the scale.

We also keep egg laying chickens.

That's great; I'd love to be able to do that sometime. I think. But then you've got old chickens that have become pets to deal with. Eggs are also always going to be a dilemma, but such a good food they are hard to give up.

[abolitionist]

Should the powerful elite be allowed to eat citizens - do you believe that might makes right?

Why or why not?

Apparently many of them do like human sacrifice and the taste of human flesh.

Ever heard of Aleister Crowley? The O.T.O and related societies still exist...

Think about the Aztecs who sacrificed humans to large snakes - it's a good thought experiment to think about what it's like to not be at the top
of the food chain.

Edited by abolitionist, 12 September 2008 - 09:41 AM.

[JLL]

1. Humans did not evolve eating other humans but animals.

2. Animals do not have the capability and/or means to communicate abstract thoughts to humans. Hence, humans and animals do not share the same morals.

[forever freedom]

Should the powerful elite be allowed to eat citizens - do you believe that might makes right?

Why or why not?

Apparently many of them do like human sacrifice and the taste of human flesh.

Ever heard of Aleister Crowley? The O.T.O and related societies still exist...

Think about the Aztecs who sacrificed humans to large snakes - it's a good thought experiment to think about what it's like to not be at the top
of the food chain.

It's a completely different matter, canibalism. You can't compare eating other animals with eating animals of the same species.

As for the food chain, yes it would suck if we weren't at the top of it, but we are, we got there through our competence (intelligence) and we deserve to be there. No need to feel any weight in the conscience when practicing this power we have over other animals. They would do the same if they had the upper hand on us.

[abolitionist]

Should the powerful elite be allowed to eat citizens - do you believe that might makes right?

Why or why not?

Apparently many of them do like human sacrifice and the taste of human flesh.

Ever heard of Aleister Crowley? The O.T.O and related societies still exist...

Think about the Aztecs who sacrificed humans to large snakes - it's a good thought experiment to think about what it's like to not be at the top
of the food chain.

It's a completely different matter, canibalism. You can't compare eating other animals with eating animals of the same species.

As for the food chain, yes it would suck if we weren't at the top of it, but we are, we got there through our competence (intelligence) and we deserve to be there. No need to feel any weight in the conscience when practicing this power we have over other animals. They would do the same if they had the upper hand on us.

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT

so stop complaining about your government - the elite are simply smarter and more powerful and they want to use you as fodder

they deserve to sacrifice you for their satisfaction

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 07:45 AM.

[abolitionist]

1. Humans did not evolve eating other humans but animals.

2. Animals do not have the capability and/or means to communicate abstract thoughts to humans. Hence, humans and animals do not share the same morals.

some did, but mostly those at the top of the human ladder sacrifice and use those of lessor power - their slavery is more useful than their flesh... same principle

yes they do

imagine space aliens have come to inhabit our planet and eat us - should they stop if they cannot understand us telling them to stop?

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 07:53 AM.

[abolitionist]

Omnivore

In my quest for a healthy body I have tried various diets. paleo, macrobiotic, blood type (O), vegetarian, vegan, but finally settled on an omnivorous diet. Becoming vegan was a big mistake for me. Always felt weak, fatigued, and listless (yes I supplemented extensively as well).

Everything I eat is local and organic. Grass fed beef and pork from the farmers market, and my garden is now providing us with tomatoes, potatoes, sweet peas, zucchini, onions, spinach, beets, and chard. We also keep egg laying chickens.

why would you feel weak and fatigued? You can get plenty of calories and protein without meat, unfortunately our society is not very supportive of vegetarianism so it's alot less convenient to get your sustainence from purely vegetable sources

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 07:51 AM.

[abolitionist]

Please read my numerous posts on this issue.

Not eating meat will shorten MY lifespan. If that makes me morally inferior in the judgement of many here...

I am not alone, and while there are plenty of people who can thrive on a veggie diet, there are many who cannot (in my clinical experience).

Oh and who died and left you the arbiter or what is morally right i.e. why is it not enough for you to do whatever is appropriate for you, but why must you impose your will on others or consider them morally inferior. I guess moral relativism doesn't extend to meat eaters.

Fini. .

what is it that you can only obtain from meat that would shorten your lifespan if you did not have it regularly?

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 07:58 AM.

[JLL]

1. Humans did not evolve eating other humans but animals.

some did, but mostly those at the top of the human ladder sacrifice and use those of lessor power - their slavery is more useful than their flesh... same principle

That some people ate the organs of people who were sacrificed in the name of religion does not mean that humans evolved eating other humans. That's like saying "yeah my grandmother once ate gravel, so it follows that humans evolved eating gravel."

imagine space aliens have come to inhabit our planet and eat us - should they stop if they cannot understand us telling them to stop?

No.

[abolitionist]

1. Humans did not evolve eating other humans but animals.

some did, but mostly those at the top of the human ladder sacrifice and use those of lessor power - their slavery is more useful than their flesh... same principle

That some people ate the organs of people who were sacrificed in the name of religion does not mean that humans evolved eating other humans. That's like saying "yeah my grandmother once ate gravel, so it follows that humans evolved eating gravel."

imagine space aliens have come to inhabit our planet and eat us - should they stop if they cannot understand us telling them to stop?

No.

lol, okay... some Russian speaking cannibals are heading over to your house for a 'get together'...

they only understand an obscure language spoken in Africa, so don't bother trying to tell them not to eat ya

the issue is about the right to kill other sentient beings for their energy or other desirables

many powerful humans kill other humans, enslave them, use their body parts, etc... it's happening as we speak

(within the human race is another food chain)

The reason it's wrong is the same reason it's wrong to enslave and eat sentient animals.

Shrimp don't suffer, they don't have the complex neurological system.

But whales, chimps, and other species that we eat and use for experiments do have the capacity to suffer profoundly - that's why we do pain experiments on them.

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 11:13 AM.

[abolitionist]

Is it wrong for the military to secretly and involuntarily experiment on soldiers?



They top brass is mighty and they are unaccountable (top of the human food chain)

it's not our flesh for food, but our energy and attributes are used involuntarily to the detriment of our lifelong individual happiness

I'm using this example to show that even though you are a human, there are many humans above you on the food chain - who see you as simply fodder

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 11:14 AM.

[abolitionist]

How do you draw the line between humans who are weaker and animals with the capacity to suffer?

They are both less intelligent and powerful, so why not eat other humans as well? Because they are more valuable as workers?

why should you care about their sentient experience unless it serves your appetites?

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 11:15 AM.

[JLL]

Well first of all, Russians are humans (I think), so there is no biological reason for Russians to eat other people.

Secondly, Russians certainly have the potential to understand other people whether or not they share a common language. They could for example use sign language ("get away from me with that steak knife" is pretty universal) or get an interpreter.

[Johan]

I think this thread has derailed a bit from the original discussion of vegetarianism, pescetarianism, etc.

I voted "other" - basically, I avoid red meat on the basis of its relatively high saturated fat content. I do eat most other kinds of meat, including fish and bird meat.

[abolitionist]

Well first of all, Russians are humans (I think), so there is no biological reason for Russians to eat other people.

Secondly, Russians certainly have the potential to understand other people whether or not they share a common language. They could for example use sign language ("get away from me with that steak knife" is pretty universal) or get an interpreter.

just like we could understand animals if we cared, these Russians don't really care about understanding you

because you don't speak their language they think you are inferior and therefore they are justified in eating you

(it's obvious that animals don't like the way they are treated by the meat industry)

eating your meat tastes good, sure they could eat animals but they simply like the taste of human flesh

that's the only biological need that humans have to eat animals - which is really just a taste preference

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 12:55 PM.

[abolitionist]

Can anybody show one ingredient in meat that cannot be obtained from non-animal sources?

This argument seems to pop up time and time again but I've never seen any evidence.

Then again, it doesn't really matter because humans will rationalize whatever they can get away with that is pleasurable - regardless of whether it actually improves their lifelong happiness or not.

Edited by abolitionist, 13 September 2008 - 01:00 PM.

[forever freedom]

Should the powerful elite be allowed to eat citizens - do you believe that might makes right?

Why or why not?

Apparently many of them do like human sacrifice and the taste of human flesh.

Ever heard of Aleister Crowley? The O.T.O and related societies still exist...

Think about the Aztecs who sacrificed humans to large snakes - it's a good thought experiment to think about what it's like to not be at the top
of the food chain.

It's a completely different matter, canibalism. You can't compare eating other animals with eating animals of the same species.

As for the food chain, yes it would suck if we weren't at the top of it, but we are, we got there through our competence (intelligence) and we deserve to be there. No need to feel any weight in the conscience when practicing this power we have over other animals. They would do the same if they had the upper hand on us.

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT

so stop complaining about your government - the elite are simply smarter and more powerful and they want to use you as fodder

they deserve to sacrifice you for their satisfaction

Might makes right.. that was the point of my post if you didn't notice..

As for the elites, my positions is that we should try to become one of them, and not whine about being "opressed"! Whining is for the hopeless, if you're not satisfied about your current position, instead of whining about the unjustices of the world and trying to change the whole system, just go along with it, adapt, and become one of the powerful ones.

Against your current limiting belief that's going to keep you from achieving greater things, this is a free society, anyone can rise and become a better person and have a better position than they were born with, it's all up to you and how much effort you put into it. The "opression" is mostly in your mind.


Sorry to go off-topic, but abolitionist started! *points at abolitionist in a childish way*