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Which part of stack is causing me to shake?

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#1 Furniture

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:27 PM


My stack:

 

Uridine UMP

CDP Choline

Vitamin C

L-Cysteine

NAC

Glycine

L-Glutamine

Slow release Alpha Lipoic Acid

B5

Riboflavin (B2)

methylfolate 5-MTHF

B1

Vitamin A & D

Sunflower Lecithin

Full spectrum Digestive Enzyme

Selenium

Chromium

Niacin

Astragalus

Milk Thistle

Green Tea Extract

Olive Leaf Extract

(sufficient b-vitamins, Vit K, Vit E, EPA+DHA  from diet)

 

 

Please help me identify what is causing me to shake and twitch. My head feels jerky when I turn it from side to side and my hands are always shaking a little bit. I have random muscle spasms in all places of my body as well. It is not too noticeable if I don't think about it but its definetly uncomfortable. They started when I was combining Piracetam with Aniracetam, which I have since stopped, but the shakes have continued for weeks now and I no longer attribute them to the -racetams. I have tried to dose Magnesium & Potassium as well as eating potassium rich foods, it may have helped somewhat but could my K and Mg needs be much much higher because of all my supps?

 

 

Sometimes I dose Resveratrol before a workout. This has always given me a stimulant effect and exacerbates my shakes. Although there is a huge difference in how long I can exercise on resveratrol compared to when I'm not. TMG also gave me the shakes. I suspect, since Olive Leaf Extract (OLE) boosts active thyroid hormone, it may be increasing my energy output too much somehow. I have 5 main objectives with my stack. Not in order of importance:

 

higher outward physical and social energy,

improved mood/well-being/frustration tolerance,

cognitive benefits/verbal fluidity/NGF boost,

confidence boost/anxiolytic/no twitches and shakes

immune system/antioxidant/longevity/etcetcetc

 

My plan is to introduce Rhodiola Rosea, L-theanine, and raise my Mg and K doses. Any ideas yo??

 


Edited by Oner, 21 April 2014 - 03:05 PM.


#2 niner

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:35 PM

I'd begin by stopping everything, and give it a month or so.  See if that helps; if it does, then start adding things back one at a time, slowly.  If it doesn't help, make an appointment with a neurologist.


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#3 Furniture

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:43 PM

I'd begin by stopping everything, and give it a month or so.  See if that helps; if it does, then start adding things back one at a time, slowly.  If it doesn't help, make an appointment with a neurologist.

 

I'm aware that that is the safe thing to do, but my physical and mental health depend on this stack so I cannot just drop everything at once. I'm trying to identify what are the likely causes and i can stop those specific supplements. Also I'm already seeing an integrative medicine doctor who tests my neurotransmitters.

 

I'm wondering if it's possible to get too much antioxidant protection. I was thinking of adding in Lutein+Zeaxanthin to go with my fatty meals and my Lecithin.


Edited by Oner, 21 April 2014 - 02:44 PM.


#4 Dolph

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:36 PM

 

I'm aware that that is the safe thing to do, but my physical and mental health depend on this stack [...]. 

 

 

Mmmm, no, definetely not...



#5 Furniture

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:16 PM

 

 

I'm aware that that is the safe thing to do, but my physical and mental health depend on this stack [...]. 

 

 

Mmmm, no, definetely not...

 

 

I just meant that i would not be able to manage my fatigue and depression without these supplements that I have been taking, it seems that supporting my overall health with this and exercise is key,  care to elaborate?


Edited by Oner, 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM.


#6 niner

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:15 PM

 

 

 

I'm aware that that is the safe thing to do, but my physical and mental health depend on this stack [...]. 

 

 

Mmmm, no, definetely not...

 

 

I just meant that i would not be able to manage my fatigue and depression without these supplements that I have been taking, it seems that supporting my overall health with this and exercise is key,  care to elaborate?

 

 

I'm not speaking for Dolph, but your physical and mental health may be at risk from this stack.  You could be permanently damaging your brain with it.  I don't see anything in your stack that stands out as an obvious cause of tremors, but any one of them could be contaminated with something (a toxic heavy metal, for instance) that is causing the problem, or it might be one of the compounds with mood effects.  It's unlikely to be the vitamins or digestive enzymes, absent contamination or crazy dosing.

 

I'll repeat my suggestion that you dump the whole thing, and concentrate on diet, exercise, sleep, and avoiding large excursions from a natural light/dark cycle.  You may well be able to function without all this stuff, but if you really can't, then bite the bullet and look into pharmaceuticals or other techniques to manage your depression until you get the tremor problem sorted out.  This really isn't something you should mess around with- you could wind up with a lifelong problem.

 


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#7 ZHMike

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 09:39 PM

Anything that releases dopamine can cause the shaking( i think), I am not familiar with all of those chemicals but I would look at that first. 

 

Good luck



#8 renfr

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:33 PM

Problem is that you do not tell us how much of each supp you're taking.
Selenium in high doses can cause selenosis and cause neurological damage.
Chromium in high doses can mess with your blood sugar and could cause shaking.
Anything that messes with your dopamine receptors or your blood sugar can cause tremor.

I would look into CDP choline, lecithin, selenium, chromium and B5.
B1 also interacts with your blood sugar (tough in a good way).
CDP choline + lecithin is problematic, you're overloading your brain with choline and this can cause rebound tremor (due to dopamine rebound)
I think your problem is with the combination and stopping now all supplements is more than recommended. After the tremor disappears you can start over by slowly reintroducting these supplements.
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#9 nightlight

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:46 PM

Try dropping Alpha Lipoic Acid. Some people have bad reaction to it (zombifying & brain fog effects, neurological problems, etc).


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#10 Furniture

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:10 PM

Try dropping Alpha Lipoic Acid. Some people have bad reaction to it (zombifying & brain fog effects, neurological problems, etc).

 

I have no brain fog with this stack, actually it has helped alot with my cognitive function. I couldn't narrow down the effect to any  one thing, though the uridine, b-vitamins, cdp-choline, and fish oil probably contributed a large part. I have no more short term memory problems, I no longer lose my keys, I find my words easier now. The only downside is the shakes which are minor. I've tried to make sure most supplements I take have good safety profiles or are essential nutrients themselves which is why I think my twitches come from a deficiency of some sort rather than too much of something bad.



#11 renfr

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:11 PM

Try dropping Alpha Lipoic Acid. Some people have bad reaction to it (zombifying & brain fog effects, neurological problems, etc).

second that.
ALA can also cause insulin autoimmune syndrome which causes hypoglycemia and could explain the shakes : http://m.care.diabet.../34/9/e146.long

ALA is something that should be used with extreme caution as it can cause mercury accumulation in the brain.
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#12 Werper

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:52 PM

My guess is the muscle twitching is being caused by the UMP.  



#13 UltraCitron

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:46 PM

Do not introduce rhodiola until the shakes go away.

How much of green tea extract do you take? And also b-vitamins? Those two things have made me feel rather jittery before



#14 Furniture

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:43 PM

Do not introduce rhodiola until the shakes go away.

How much of green tea extract do you take? And also b-vitamins? Those two things have made me feel rather jittery before

 

is rhodiola stimulating? I always heard it being sedating. My green tea extract has been on the high end recently, i'd say 4-6 pills a day. I'll lower that to just 2. Resveratrol for certain is too stimulating for me which I suspect has something to do with its ability to activate SIRT1 and thereby increasing the NAD+ ratio. I wonder if green tea extract works in the same way or by some other mechanism. My b-vitamin dosages are all normal, 25mg 3x daily Riboflavin, 100mg B1, I think 400mc 5-MTHF, 200mg Nicotinic Acid. The only exception is B5 which I take 2-3 grams daily but I have been doing that for a year now with no ill effects.



#15 renfr

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:23 PM

B5 could be part of the problem : http://www.cyclingfo...nt-side-effects
There are plenty of these stories, effects buildup overtime and you don't see them occuring before a very long time.
Sure the guy took 10g but 3g is a massive dose compared to what is commonly required.

#16 Furniture

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:44 PM

B5 could be part of the problem : http://www.cyclingfo...nt-side-effects
There are plenty of these stories, effects buildup overtime and you don't see them occuring before a very long time.
Sure the guy took 10g but 3g is a massive dose compared to what is commonly required.

 

Wow that story is a bit daunting. I do take L-Cysteine exactly because B5 depletes it (also its a precursor to glutathione) and my slow release ALA comes with biotin, so those 2 might counter any hair side effects. I've reconsidered and I'm going to drop my B5 dose, thanks for the link. I think I'll cut it in half to 1.5g.


Edited by Oner, 23 April 2014 - 12:08 AM.


#17 niner

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 02:05 AM

My green tea extract has been on the high end recently, i'd say 4-6 pills a day. I'll lower that to just 2.

 
GTE comes in different sizes. Two pills might be 100mg or it might be a gram... How many milligrams are you taking?
 

I've reconsidered and I'm going to drop my B5 dose, thanks for the link. I think I'll cut it in half to 1.5g.


Ok, that's only too high by a factor of 300. I don't think you understand what's at stake here. What in the world is this suprapharmacologic dose of B5 doing for you that makes it worth risking long term or possibly permanent damage to your body or brain?
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#18 Duchykins

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 06:14 AM

Eh, I'm sorry Oner because I had a nice long post full of info for you but at the last minute as I was rechecking the spelling of something, the frikken page reloaded and I lost everything. So I'll just try to quickly recap what I remember, and pardon if it seems a bit curt and abrupt, I'm not trying to be rude:

- Unless you have a specific condition that is related to methylating and your doctor has recommended you to take methyl folate, nicotinic acid, TMG at the same time, *and without* cobalamin, then I think you should put them down and just stick to small nutritional doses instead of the larger therapeutic ones. In fact put down all of your Bs and use a modest B complex for a time. TMG is famous for evoking nasty reactions in people with methylating problems, from twitching to bathroom accidents. Your methylation status can change VERY quickly, even within one day, that is why people taking a bunch of folate can feel ridiculously awesome for a day or two and then start feeling awful after that, same with B12, methionine, SAMe, TMG, nicotinic acid. The good news though is that it can be reversed just as quickly.

- Yes to magnesium, but no to extra magnesium. Get about 50mg of zinc daily, and keep it under 100mg for long term use. Calcium, yes. These seem mundane to a lot of people trying nootropics but are actually staples for people stimulating their brains with noots, things can go downhill pretty quick without them. Yes to EPA/DHA, with about twice as much EPA as DHA, but don't go over 1.5 g of fish oil daily for a long period of time

- Theanine is typically a good idea for anyone's stack, imho. I also think you should add taurine and lysine at MODEST doses, don't go over 1g of lysine and 3g of taurine and spread the doses out over the day. Don't go nuts with the theanine, 100mg two or three times a day is just fine.

- I see several things on your list that can eventually lead to elevated norepinephrine (and possibly lowered serotonin, from a collective point of view), but I don't see anything that significantly supports serotonin or GABA, I think you should add some taurine, lysine, theanine, zinc but not in large doses

- Cut your selenium down to a nutritional minimum dose, and no more than 400mg of chromium daily

- Please don't add rhodiola at this junction. Rhodiola is, among other things, a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, if my memory serves, and has the potential to send you into a panic attack if you already have too much norepinephrine going around, even though rhodiola is also an SRI it may not be enough

- I think you should choose between the citicoline and the lecithin. Due to citicoline's dopaminergic properties and potential for increasing dopamine receptor densities, I personally put down the lecithin in favor of citicoline simply because lecithin is abundant in my favorite foods, in a lot of foods.

- Glycine and l-cysteine (except NAC) are stimulating at glutamate receptors if your brain is already in a glutamate excited state, which you could be doing with the additional glutamine. Glycine behaves differently depending on how much glutamate you have at the time. I could be wrong, you would want to double check this with the Almighty Google.

- People have hurt themselves for the long term with supplements that ramp up the thyroid, taking them for no good reason without having their thyroid checked first, especially with ingesting liquid iodine, but it can also be done with other thyroid affecting supplements like tyrosine

- I haven't heard of a slow release ALA before but I can tell you that you should look at ALA as you would look at sugar or potassium. Don't take your day's worth in one dose. This should be spread out during the day, and you'll often see capsules of ALA @ 600mg per cap, that is actually too much to take all at once, that 600mg should be spread out in 200 or 300mg doses

- Please please do not add extra potassium unless you have a real medical reason to do so, you can seriously injure your kidneys or heart, and especially while messing around with your methylation.

- I can't fathom any reason why more than 100 or 200 mg of B5 would ever be taken in one day. Please go down to 100mg. Please keep your biotin under 1000mcg too. But to reiterate, I think you should stop the separate dosing of Bs for a time and use an ordinary B complex for at least a week because your Bs are probably hugely imbalanced (I see no B12 on your list, B6, B1). That does not mean go out and get matching megadoses of the other Bs. If you have been getting a lot of caffeine, add some inositol at MODEST doses (like 200mg twice a day). Even if you haven't been doing caffeine, inositol (B8) sounds like a good idea anyway and is something I use daily to support serotonin sensitivity. Riboflavin is typically well-tolerated at 400mg spread out over the day for people with migraines, but I wouldn't go above that for more than a few days at a time, more than 100 or 200 mg isn't very useful for most people though.

- Please don't megadose the green tea, there are reports of high doses of green tea causing kidney failure

The other herbs I can't comment on as I know too litte about them.

Good luck buddy and I hope you feel better soon
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#19 Dolph

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:07 AM

The only hope one can have is that the shaking is also part of the severe case of hypochondria the OP supposedly is taking all this crap for...

 

Really, in all honesty. What ever your health problem you are taking this for may be, this completely irrational "kitchen-sink"-stack of nonsense is doing squat about it AT BEST! 

 

Please see a health care PROFESSIONAL asap and don't care for "advice" from internet forums. 


Edited by Dolph, 23 April 2014 - 09:12 AM.

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#20 Dolph

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 01:49 PM

Yeah, colour me red... I'm so tired of this pussy-attitude. To lie "politely" to eachother faces is no solution you know. I think the real problem of the OP is pretty much obvious to everyone.


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#21 Duchykins

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 03:23 PM

The only hope one can have is that the shaking is also part of the severe case of hypochondria the OP supposedly is taking all this crap for...
 
Really, in all honesty. What ever your health problem you are taking this for may be, this completely irrational "kitchen-sink"-stack of nonsense is doing squat about it AT BEST! 
 
Please see a health care PROFESSIONAL asap and don't care for "advice" from internet forums. 


We may agree that he is likely overdoing one or more of his supps, but I don't agree with this approach of belittling and humiliating the OP. Imagine if that were commonplace, people would be less likely to ask for advice about their stacks or side effects and continue going about it alone, which makes things worse both for that person and for the community. The community would be less aware of side effects and the user could seriously injure themselves. These threads are also useful for people lurking and searching for answers to the same questions, and even other thread participants like us stand to learn something new from another poster.


And honestly I take more than Oner does, except that I typically keep doses on the low-moderate side in part because I do take so many things, and I try to keep my dailies balanced

So this morning I took

D-phenylalanine 500mg
Citicoline 200mg
Methionine 300mg
Carnosine 500mg
Magnesium/calcium citrate/D3, 1.5g which is less than half the daily RDA, I'll take the other half later
B complex with C and E
Extra riboflavin 100mg, thiamine 100mg, pantothenic acid 100mg, B12 1000mcg, bitotin 500mcg
Inositol 300mg (another dose later)
Zinc 25mg (second dose later)
Taurine 500mg (another dose later @ 1g, near bedtime)
Lysine 400mg (one more dose later near bedtime)
Theanine 100mg (150mg later near bedtime)
NAC 100mg
Chromium 400mg
Creatine 500mg
ALCAR 500mg
ALA 200mg
TMG 100mg
Co Q 10 100mg (another dose later)
Emerald Balance 1.5g
Whey isolate 3-5grams
Fish oil 1.5g for 800mg EPA / 500mg DHA
Extra virgin coconut oil 3-5g

And that's just an average daily stack, none the peripheral stuff like racetams and stuff I save for racetams like sulbutiamine, beta alanine, and things you shouldn't take daily like phenylethylamine, picamilon, 5-htp. And I keep notebooks with info on everything in my cupboard.

Since my migraines began at 21 I've never been in better physical and mental health and with my migraines almost completely under control. I'm gonig to be 32 in a couple of months here and I really really wish I had started doing this in my early 20s because I feel I've lost so much time and opportunities being sick
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#22 geo12the

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 05:18 PM

Oner,

 

You need to stop all of your supplements to determine if its something in your stack causing your shaking or its a neurological problem like Parkinson's. The symptoms you describe  sound very troubling to me and you need to figure out what is going on. Stopping your ridiculous everything but the kitchen sink stack will not kill you. Whatever is causing the shaking might.


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#23 ta5

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 05:30 PM

I had shaking once from a green tea extract. This was about 15 years ago. I had tremors in my hands, and my legs were a little shaky/spastic when I would walk down stairs. I seriously thought I had some neurological problem. I never thought it was the green tea. My green tea was supposed to be decaffeinated. I had been taking green tea for months, but I switched brands at some point and didn't think anything of it. Then it occurred to me that maybe it had some caffeine, maybe it wasn't actually decaffeinated despite the label, or maybe it contained some other stimulants that were making me shake. So, I stopped taking it, and the shaking completely went away. I was relieved to figure out what it was. I switched brands and never had a problem again. It was definitely something about that particular extract I was taking.

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#24 niner

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:55 PM

We may agree that he is likely overdoing one or more of his supps, but I don't agree with this approach of belittling and humiliating the OP. Imagine if that were commonplace, people would be less likely to ask for advice about their stacks or side effects and continue going about it alone, which makes things worse both for that person and for the community. The community would be less aware of side effects and the user could seriously injure themselves. These threads are also useful for people lurking and searching for answers to the same questions, and even other thread participants like us stand to learn something new from another poster.


I agree with you, Duchykins. I try to encourage harm reduction, so for example I would support getting clean needles and clean dope for heroin addicts, and teaching them how to shoot up without killing themselves.  I guess I'm not handling this situation quite right, because I repeatedly urged the OP to stop "using", and that's not absolutely required for harm reduction in this case.    Oner might be psychologically addicted to his stack, so stopping it cold turkey may not be in the cards.

 

Oner, if you're reading, maybe you could try to figure out how little of each compound you can get away with while maintaining the state you want or need.  I notice that you included the words "euphoria" and "peace" in the tags for this thread, which is making it sound like you are in fact addicted to your stack.  I'm not being judgmental; I've been addicted to things in my life, as have a lot of people.  If your stack is harming you and you can't stop using it, then it would be a good idea to acknowledge where you're at with it, and go from there.  Whatever you decide to do, you should do it with both eyes open, and not trick yourself into thinking that your stack is essential for your physical health.


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#25 KimberCT

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:30 AM

NAC
Riboflavin (B2)
methylfolate 5-MTHF
Selenium
Chromium
Milk Thistle
Olive Leaf Extract

My supplements have a lot of overlap with yours. I also take the above. I've noticed a pretty dramatic exacerbation of my tremor (essential) and the random muscle twitches you describe.

The only ones I've introduced recently are selenium, chromium, and OLE. I suspect one of these three.

#26 koala_muncher

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:20 PM

Do you take any prescription meds? Which ones?

Do you suffer anxiety? Panic attacks?

How old are you?

What is your alcohol level?

Any other symptoms such as itchiness?

Is your gait affected?

Does the shake occur at rest or just when trying to use the affected hand?

Describe the shake, is it a wringing like motion or a flap?

What is the approximate speed of the shake?

I doubt whether it any of the items you listed, rather a different problem.

Rather than diagnose yourself, seriously, go to a doctor.


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#27 Furniture

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:20 PM

NAC
Riboflavin (B2)
methylfolate 5-MTHF
Selenium
Chromium
Milk Thistle
Olive Leaf Extract

My supplements have a lot of overlap with yours. I also take the above. I've noticed a pretty dramatic exacerbation of my tremor (essential) and the random muscle twitches you describe.

The only ones I've introduced recently are selenium, chromium, and OLE. I suspect one of these three.

 

I've narrowed down my shakes to 5-MTHF and the green tea extract for now. I think I might have been overmethylated.



#28 Furniture

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:50 PM

Eh, I'm sorry Oner because I had a nice long post full of info for you but at the last minute as I was rechecking the spelling of something, the frikken page reloaded and I lost everything. So I'll just try to quickly recap what I remember, and pardon if it seems a bit curt and abrupt, I'm not trying to be rude:

- Unless you have a specific condition that is related to methylating and your doctor has recommended you to take methyl folate, nicotinic acid, TMG at the same time, *and without* cobalamin, then I think you should put them down and just stick to small nutritional doses instead of the larger therapeutic ones. In fact put down all of your Bs and use a modest B complex for a time. TMG is famous for evoking nasty reactions in people with methylating problems, from twitching to bathroom accidents. Your methylation status can change VERY quickly, even within one day, that is why people taking a bunch of folate can feel ridiculously awesome for a day or two and then start feeling awful after that, same with B12, methionine, SAMe, TMG, nicotinic acid. The good news though is that it can be reversed just as quickly.

- Yes to magnesium, but no to extra magnesium. Get about 50mg of zinc daily, and keep it under 100mg for long term use. Calcium, yes. These seem mundane to a lot of people trying nootropics but are actually staples for people stimulating their brains with noots, things can go downhill pretty quick without them. Yes to EPA/DHA, with about twice as much EPA as DHA, but don't go over 1.5 g of fish oil daily for a long period of time

- Theanine is typically a good idea for anyone's stack, imho. I also think you should add taurine and lysine at MODEST doses, don't go over 1g of lysine and 3g of taurine and spread the doses out over the day. Don't go nuts with the theanine, 100mg two or three times a day is just fine.

- I see several things on your list that can eventually lead to elevated norepinephrine (and possibly lowered serotonin, from a collective point of view), but I don't see anything that significantly supports serotonin or GABA, I think you should add some taurine, lysine, theanine, zinc but not in large doses

- Cut your selenium down to a nutritional minimum dose, and no more than 400mg of chromium daily

- Please don't add rhodiola at this junction. Rhodiola is, among other things, a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, if my memory serves, and has the potential to send you into a panic attack if you already have too much norepinephrine going around, even though rhodiola is also an SRI it may not be enough

- I think you should choose between the citicoline and the lecithin. Due to citicoline's dopaminergic properties and potential for increasing dopamine receptor densities, I personally put down the lecithin in favor of citicoline simply because lecithin is abundant in my favorite foods, in a lot of foods.

- Glycine and l-cysteine (except NAC) are stimulating at glutamate receptors if your brain is already in a glutamate excited state, which you could be doing with the additional glutamine. Glycine behaves differently depending on how much glutamate you have at the time. I could be wrong, you would want to double check this with the Almighty Google.

- People have hurt themselves for the long term with supplements that ramp up the thyroid, taking them for no good reason without having their thyroid checked first, especially with ingesting liquid iodine, but it can also be done with other thyroid affecting supplements like tyrosine

- I haven't heard of a slow release ALA before but I can tell you that you should look at ALA as you would look at sugar or potassium. Don't take your day's worth in one dose. This should be spread out during the day, and you'll often see capsules of ALA @ 600mg per cap, that is actually too much to take all at once, that 600mg should be spread out in 200 or 300mg doses

- Please please do not add extra potassium unless you have a real medical reason to do so, you can seriously injure your kidneys or heart, and especially while messing around with your methylation.

- I can't fathom any reason why more than 100 or 200 mg of B5 would ever be taken in one day. Please go down to 100mg. Please keep your biotin under 1000mcg too. But to reiterate, I think you should stop the separate dosing of Bs for a time and use an ordinary B complex for at least a week because your Bs are probably hugely imbalanced (I see no B12 on your list, B6, B1). That does not mean go out and get matching megadoses of the other Bs. If you have been getting a lot of caffeine, add some inositol at MODEST doses (like 200mg twice a day). Even if you haven't been doing caffeine, inositol (B8) sounds like a good idea anyway and is something I use daily to support serotonin sensitivity. Riboflavin is typically well-tolerated at 400mg spread out over the day for people with migraines, but I wouldn't go above that for more than a few days at a time, more than 100 or 200 mg isn't very useful for most people though.

- Please don't megadose the green tea, there are reports of high doses of green tea causing kidney failure

The other herbs I can't comment on as I know too litte about them.

Good luck buddy and I hope you feel better soon

 

Thank you for the detailed response! This is exactly what I was looking for.

 

You say to avoid excess potassium. My understanding from those trying to fix their methylation over at forums.phoenixrising.me is that potassium deficiency is common, and that supplements, especially B-vitamins, TMG, and what not, use up potassium. I've read somewhere that our neolithic and paleolithic ancestors had a much higher daily intake of potassium than we get today.

 

I'll be switching my Green Tea Extract to just a good quality matcha tea 1x or 2x daily for the theanine. Hopefully this will have a much less stimulating effect. I've also been looking into Taurine & Zinc as well.

 

My CDP-choline and lecithin combo are spotty and I use as necessary. I use the Sunflower Lecithin together with my fat soluble vitamins and 1-2 tablespoons of a good fat like coconut oil, olive oil, or red palm oil. This is to ensure proper absorption, not really for the choline. I find that I am sensitive to the depressive effects of CDP-choline.

 

ALA is notorious for having a very short half life, so its important to get a time released version.

 

Regarding the B5, i understand your concern and I am aware that it is not healthy, but relatively high doses of B5 + L-Cysteine has been the only effective treatment for my once severe acne. The alternative is Accutane (Isotretinoin) which has some pretty drastic side effects, like liver damage, severe depression, neurological issues. I've picked my poison and unless anyone can reccommend me an effective/healthy/sustainable acne treatment that I haven't already tried, then I'm sticking with my B5.

 

 

I have had my thyroid levels checked and they were low but not low enough to warrant a diagnosis or anything. My iodine levels and my adrenals were a bit off as well and I have noticed that I tend to do pretty well on thyroid supporting supplements for example Vitamin A and Selenium. Iodine supplements exacerbates my acne for some odd reason, so I just try to get a necessary amount from diet instead. L-Carnitine which prevents active T3 thyroid hormone from entering cells is taken by many hyper-thyroid patients as an effective treatment. I noticed that whenever I consume L-Carnitine, my eyes become puffy and heavy, and my body feels sore. My anxiety heightens yet I feel fatigued and withdrawn, with no motivation. To me, this indicates that I should be supporting my thyroid not suppressing it.


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#29 Duchykins

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:21 PM


Eh, I'm sorry Oner because I had a nice long post full of info for you but at the last minute as I was rechecking the spelling of something, the frikken page reloaded and I lost everything. So I'll just try to quickly recap what I remember, and pardon if it seems a bit curt and abrupt, I'm not trying to be rude:

- Unless you have a specific condition that is related to methylating and your doctor has recommended you to take methyl folate, nicotinic acid, TMG at the same time, *and without* cobalamin, then I think you should put them down and just stick to small nutritional doses instead of the largwer therapeutic ones. In fact put down all of your Bs and use a modest B complex for a time. TMG is famous for evoking nasty reactions in people with methylating problems, from twitching to bathroom accidents. Your methylation status can change VERY quickly, even within one day, that is why people taking a bunch of folate can feel ridiculously awesome for a day or two and then start feeling awful after that, same with B12, methionine, SAMe, TMG, nicotinic acid. The good news though is that it can be reversed just as quickly.

- Yes to magnesium, but no to extra magnesium. Get about 50mg of zinc daily, and keep it under 100mg for long term use. Calcium, yes. These seem mundane to a lot of people trying nootropics but are actually staples for people stimulating their brains with noots, things can go downhill pretty quick without them. Yes to EPA/DHA, with about twice as much EPA as DHA, but don't go over 1.5 g of fish oil daily for a long period of time

- Theanine is typically a good idea for anyone's stack, imho. I also think you should add taurine and lysine at MODEST doses, don't go over 1g of lysine and 3g of taurine and spread the doses out over the day. Don't go nuts with the theanine, 100mg two or three times a day is just fine.

- I see several things on your list that can eventually lead to elevated norepinephrine (and possibly lowered serotonin, from a collective point of view), but I don't see anything that significantly supports serotonin or GABA, I think you should add some taurine, lysine, theanine, zinc but not in large doses

- Cut your selenium down to a nutritional minimum dose, and no more than 400mg of chromium daily

- Please don't add rhodiola at this junction. Rhodiola is, among other things, a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, if my memory serves, and has the potential to send you into a panic attack if you already have too much norepinephrine going around, even though rhodiola is also an SRI it may not be enough

- I think you should choose between the citicoline and the lecithin. Due to citicoline's dopaminergic properties and potential for increasing dopamine receptor densities, I personally put down the lecithin in favor of citicoline simply because lecithin is abundant in my favorite foods, in a lot of foods.

- Glycine and l-cysteine (except NAC) are stimulating at glutamate receptors if your brain is already in a glutamate excited state, which you could be doing with the additional glutamine. Glycine behaves differently depending on how much glutamate you have at the time. I could be wrong, you would want to double check this with the Almighty Google.

- People have hurt themselves for the long term with supplements that ramp up the thyroid, taking them for no good reason without having their thyroid checked first, especially with ingesting liquid iodine, but it can also be done with other thyroid affecting supplements like tyrosine

- I haven't heard of a slow release ALA before but I can tell you that you should look at ALA as you would look at sugar or potassium. Don't take your day's worth in one dose. This should be spread out during the day, and you'll often see capsules of ALA @ 600mg per cap, that is actually too much to take all at once, that 600mg should be spread out in 200 or 300mg doses

- Please please do not add extra potassium unless you have a real medical reason to do so, you can seriously injure your kidneys or heart, and especially while messing around with your methylation.

- I can't fathom any reason why more than 100 or 200 mg of B5 would ever be taken in one day. Please go down to 100mg. Please keep your biotin under 1000mcg too. But to reiterate, I think you should stop the separate dosing of Bs for a time and use an ordinary B complex for at least a week because your Bs are probably hugely imbalanced (I see no B12 on your list, B6, B1). That does not mean go out and get matching megadoses of the other Bs. If you have been getting a lot of caffeine, add some inositol at MODEST doses (like 200mg twice a day). Even if you haven't been doing caffeine, inositol (B8) sounds like a good idea anyway and is something I use daily to support serotonin sensitivity. Riboflavin is typically well-tolerated at 400mg spread out over the day for people with migraines, but I wouldn't go above that for more than a few days at a time, more than 100 or 200 mg isn't very useful for most people though.

- Please don't megadose the green tea, there are reports of high doses of green tea causing kidney failure

The other herbs I can't comment on as I know too litte about them.

Good luck buddy and I hope you feel better soon

 
Thank you for the detailed response! This is exactly what I was looking for.
 
You say to avoid excess potassium. My understanding from those trying to fix their methylation over at forums.phoenixrising.me is that potassium deficiency is common, and that supplements, especially B-vitamins, TMG, and what not, use up potassium. I've read somewhere that our neolithic and paleolithic ancestors had a much higher daily intake of potassium than we get today.
 
I'll be switching my Green Tea Extract to just a good quality matcha tea 1x or 2x daily for the theanine. Hopefully this will have a much less stimulating effect. I've also been looking into Taurine & Zinc as well.
 
My CDP-choline and lecithin combo are spotty and I use as necessary. I use the Sunflower Lecithin together with my fat soluble vitamins and 1-2 tablespoons of a good fat like coconut oil, olive oil, or red palm oil. This is to ensure proper absorption, not really for the choline. I find that I am sensitive to the depressive effects of CDP-choline.
 
ALA is notorious for having a very short half life, so its important to get a time released version.
 
Regarding the B5, i understand your concern and I am aware that it is not healthy, but relatively high doses of B5 + L-Cysteine has been the only effective treatment for my once severe acne. The alternative is Accutane (Isotretinoin) which has some pretty drastic side effects, like liver damage, severe depression, neurological issues. I've picked my poison and unless anyone can reccommend me an effective/healthy/sustainable acne treatment that I haven't already tried, then I'm sticking with my B5.
 
 
I have had my thyroid levels checked and they were low but not low enough to warrant a diagnosis or anything. My iodine levels and my adrenals were a bit off as well and I have noticed that I tend to do pretty well on thyroid supporting supplements for example Vitamin A and Selenium. Iodine supplements exacerbates my acne for some odd reason, so I just try to get a necessary amount from diet instead. L-Carnitine which prevents active T3 thyroid hormone from entering cells is taken by many hyper-thyroid patients as an effective treatment. I noticed that whenever I consume L-Carnitine, my eyes become puffy and heavy, and my body feels sore. My anxiety heightens yet I feel fatigued and withdrawn, with no motivation. To me, this indicates that I should be supporting my thyroid not suppressing it.

It could also mean your histamine is too low, and histamine has a strong relationship with methylation. If yo are overmethylating the chances are your histamine is low. But if undermethylating the you'll probably have high histamine. I have a spot of trouble with this every once in a while from a side effect of Wellbutrin, I my histamine tolerance threshold decreased and in wreaked havoc with the supps had been taking at the time, I had to stop taking certain ones that increase and add ones that decrease histamine. But my migraines returned with a vengeance and I ended up choosing to stop Wellbutrin so I could get back on my anti migraine stack.

You said you take an iodine supplement. If it's a liquid then it should be applied topically and not ingested. The recent stories about increasing our iodine intake because of Japanese longevity are based on a misinterpretation of an old study. People are inadvertently shutting down their thyroid drinking stuff like Lugol's at the same doses doctors use to shut down the thyroid during surgeries involving the thyroid. They feel awesome at first, almost hyperthyroid and then really horrible later as they become hypothyroid, except this isn't as easily reversible as over/undermemtylating is. The liquid iodine is not for ingesting but for using topically. And I'm not saying it to patronize you or anything but to express this to anyone reading the thread and considering iodine supplementation.

But in either case it seems clearer now that you should make sure you are getting enough zinc.

It's difficult to diagnose yourself as over or under methylated because some of the symptoms overlap, like acetylcholine and even histamine.

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#30 niner

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:16 PM

I have had my thyroid levels checked and they were low but not low enough to warrant a diagnosis or anything. My iodine levels and my adrenals were a bit off as well and I have noticed that I tend to do pretty well on thyroid supporting supplements for example Vitamin A and Selenium. Iodine supplements exacerbates my acne for some odd reason, so I just try to get a necessary amount from diet instead.


If iodine is affecting your acne, you are probably taking supraphysiological amounts. Why don't you try something like the 225 mcg potassium iodide product from NOW. This is used by some of our most knowledgeable members and I can attest to its mood-improving properties. Unless you are eating some strange stuff, I wouldn't count on getting enough iodine from diet. You could just take a multivitamin like Centrum, which would give you 150 mcg iodine and might help you to not drive one of your B vitamin levels off a cliff.





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