12 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

Hey there,

I am new to the boards (at least posting, I have been reading them for a few weeks) and wanted to post a question here, if that is ok.

I have seen fish oil touted as being very beneficial, but I am a vegetarian. I was wondering if there were any substitutes for it? Also, are there any other supplements taken from animals that I am not aware of, and substitutes for those?

I searched on google, and came up with some websites denouncing fish oil (one example) saying that there were toxins in it, and recommending plant oils, but I did not know what plant oils might be on par with fish oil for the benefits you receive.


Also, sorry if I am asking too many questions, but I was wondering about caloric restriction, and if you guys think that it is a good course of action, and how to go about it. I saw a chart on Life Extension Magazine's website summing up the human equivalent to testing that has been carried out (should be below).

Thanks!

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[scottl]

Calorie restriction:

http://calorierestriction.org


Flax oil is no sbstitute for fish oil. I would recommend reconsidering.

Given that eeryone makes molecularly distillled these days, heavy metal contamination is not an issue.

[Live Forever]

Does anyone know how many fish/what type of fish are killed for fish oil?

I am not a strict or militant vegetarian like some, and fish was the last meat that I gave up eating, but I would like to know more about it before starting to use it. I will do some research on my own, but just thought if anyone happen to know more about it.

Also, how does flax seed oil compare directly against fish oil? For instance, does it take twice as much to equal the same benefits of fish oil, or can you not get some of the things from flax seed oil that you can get from fish oil?

Thanks again guys for the help!

[Pablo M]

Krill oil has the same benefits of salmon oil (DHA/EPA, astaxanthin) and as an added bonus is lower on the food chain. It's actually krill that salmon get those nutrients from.

[Live Forever]

Thanks for the heads up on krill oil! I will look into it.






A 2x4 is actually 1-1/2" x 3-1/2"

[jaydfox]

Also, how does flax seed oil compare directly against fish oil? For instance, does it take twice as much to equal the same benefits of fish oil, or can you not get some of the things from flax seed oil that you can get from fish oil?

I'll try to look up references on this, though I'm sure you could search for it on Google and get decent results.

Basically, the omega-3 oil in flaxseed oil is Alpha Linoleic Acid, abbreviated ALA. The omega-3's in fish oil are Eicosa-Pentanoic Acid (EPA) and Docosa-Hexanoic Acid (DHA), which are longer chained fatty acids.

The body has enzymes to desaturate and elongate ALA into DHA and EPA. It's fairly complicated, because these same enzymes also elongate the omega-6 fatty acid called Linoleic Acid, abbreviated LA or sometimes LNA, into one or more long-chain omega-6 fatty acids. The only one I know off the top of my head is Arachadonic Acid, ARA, which is an essential fatty acid for baby's to grow and develop properly. As far as I know, ARA does more harm than good in adults, so keeping ARA levels low is a good thing. And keeping DHA and EPA levels at least at some minimum level is a good thing.

So what to make of all this? Well, first of all, there are two things to consider. Since the ALA and the LA have to compete for the same enzymes to get turned into the useful longer-chained fatty acids, it's important to ingest a certain ratio of these two fats. The ratio doesn't have to be exact, but recommendations I've seen range from 1:1 to 4:1, LA:ALA. In other words, if you eat 20 grams of Linoleic acid (omega-6 from plant sources), then you should eat at least 5 and not more than 20 grams of Alpha Linoleic Acid (omega-3 from plant sources). The typical American gets an omega-6 to omega-3 ratio of about 20:1, which means that hardly any of the ALA they eat will get turned into DHA or EPA. And if they aren't eating fish or organic graze-fed beef, etc., or taking fish oil or krill oil supplements, etc., then they aren't getting much DHA or EPA either.

Now, for the more important part. How much ALA should you take every day? Well, as I said, the ALA has to be converted to EPA and DHA. The conversion process is slow, so it may take as much as 3-30 grams of ALA to get just 300mg of DHA/EPA.

That's a very wide range, but it's because you have to take into account how much omega-6 (specifically, linoleic acid) you eat as well. The more LA you eat, the more ALA you'll need to eat as well. For example, foods are typically fried in vegetable oils high in LA, but almost devoid of ALA. Taking flaxseed oil rebalances the ratio.

[Chip]

Krill oil?

From online Cambridge dictionary:

Krill: very small animals with a hard outer shell which live in the sea and are eaten in large numbers by some types of whale

I understand that the omega threes that krill and fish get are sourced from algae. Astaxanthin has similar distribution and is now available via aquaculture of algae, mainly on the island of Hawaii. I use such a source of astaxanthin. Eventually we can suspect that the algae(s) from which the omega 3 oils are originally derived will be available in this same manner. In the mean time, though I prefer to stay as low as possible on the food chain, the benifits of the substance are too good and I will carefully seek them from deep sea (North Atlantic is considered safest as far as not incorporating pollutants) fish and that is molecularly distilled.

[1arcturus]

liveforever 22-
I am allergic to fish oil, and I also have ethical objections to eating fish like you do.
I take 2 tablespoons of flaxseed oil a day, but as jaydfox pointed out, this is less efficient than taking EPA and DHA.
DHA is available from algae, brandname Neuromins, which removes the ethical objection. Unfortunately, I have found I am also allergic to algae But hopefully you won't be. Neuromins are also, unfortunately, very expensive.
And for some reason, no one is extracting EPA from algae, and EPA is as critical as DHA.
Check out Kurzweil's Fantastic Voyage for a detailed explanation.

Caloric Restriction - if you are really considering this, you should look at their Web site. It probably is effective at extending lifespan (on -average-), but the drawbacks are obvious and are an obstacle for many people. Like Kurzweil, I practice a moderate variation of caloric restriction.

[jaydfox]

Yeah, careful about getting too much DHA. There's mixed research which indicates that DHA might do you more harm than good in the long run, provided you get enough ALA and EPA. The body can very rapidly convert EPA to DHA, as this step is not rate-limited by enzymes. So it would be preferable to get your long-chain omega-3's in the form of EPA, and let your body convert it to DHA in the amounts it sees fit. Unless you have a genetic metabolic disorder, the conversion rate should be more than enough for optimal health.

If you can decipher the badly structured archive of this email, it should shed some light on this, and provide links to more information:
http://lists.calorie...ociety&P=R29212

[Pablo M]

I thought I'd add that my brand of fish oil (Natural Factors) indicates that it is made from salmon parts that would otherwise be discarded. I wouldn't be surprised if this is in fact the source of most fish oils. I don't know if this makes you any more inclined to use it. It's sort of like the debate on leather: if the animal's going to be killed anyway, why not use all of it? But I love animals. So delicious...

[jaydfox]

I thought I'd add that my brand of fish oil (Natural Factors) indicates that it is made from salmon parts that would otherwise be discarded. I wouldn't be surprised if this is in fact the source of most fish oils. I don't know if this makes you any more inclined to use it. It's sort of like the debate on leather: if the animal's going to be killed anyway, why not use all of it? But I love animals. So delicious...

Actually, we had a debate about this in the Full Members forum, with regards to vegetarianism and leather purchases. It was pointed out that if a profit can be made off of it (like leather, or fish oil pills), then that increases the profits for the producers (or fishermen), and hence increases their motivation to raise more cattle (or fish more). The extra meat that results will, if people aren't buying it at the current price, result in a surplus. A surplus reduces the price of the meat, and the farmers (or fishermen) reduce production. But the new level of production is slightly higher than it was before. In other words, buying leather or bologna (the left-over meat and guts and who-knows-what-else) or fish oil pills will lead to more animal deaths. Not as much as buying meat, of course, but still a small non-negligible effect.

[ajnast4r]

The body can very rapidly convert EPA to DHA

you got that backwards, DHA converts to epa at about a 10-15% rate... EPA does not convert to DHA in the human body.

please correct me if im wrong.