7 replies to this topic

[beez]

Is it possible to clearly link certain symptoms to certain NTs?

Like for example if someone's always overly excited and aggitated then would this clearly point to something being wrong with the glutamatergic system?

Or is it not that simple?

Should a psychiatrist for example write down all symptoms of a patient and then in a Dr.House like manner try to find out which NTs are involved and then come

up with a strategy to treat all possibly involved NTs?

[FW900]

No it is not that simple. A psychiatrist with an understanding of neuroscience and neurotransmitters might be lead to think that you might have a NT problem, however, there is no true way for them to know on the spot in a simple way if this is true; especially with the example that you have provided. Even the classic theory of "serotonin imbalance" being a cause for depression has been called to question. If you have consistently taken medication or a drug, they might be able to correctly identify any downregulation (or up) that would result from it's use. Certain extreme symptoms could be clearly linked to neurotransmitters; such as the shaking of Parkinson's disease will point to a lack of dopamine receptors.

[Tom_]

No this is entirely impossible. Mental health issues are not even close to being fully understood from a biological approach.

 

Certain symptoms can be observed and to an extent theoretically linked to respond slightly better to different monoaminergic drugs..fatigue for example responds to psychostimulants. The monoaminergic hypothesis is a weak but certainly linked to nearly/all mental health problems. Beyound the monoamines its very hard to link symptoms. This is why many people complain about the biological approach being to reductionist and why psychological approaches (CBT (and likely other psychotherapies) as well as behavioual activation and other behavioual modifications have been shown to cause changes in gross and to a less extent the cellular level) are at least as effective as pharmacological ones. As such psychiatric evaluation should follow a biopsychosocial approach.

 

Symptoms should be evaluated in the context of medication that have been shown to affect the symptoms (antidepressants improve depressive syndromes as a whole), psychological evaluation should look at how thoughts and feelings may have 'evolved' orgionally as a useful mechanism but become outdated in the current enviroment (and then how they can be changed ex: repeatedly beaten as a child, someone withdraws from social contact (serving the function of taking them further away from the abuser) but now they are not going to be attacked socialing with people is hard beccause they are still exibiting the behaviour - graded increase in soical contact may work. Then social and enviromental factors should be examined. High stress for example might be a problem, finding realistic ways to reduce this stress.

 

At the lowest level all of these are affecting the biology of the person but since we don't fully understand how nor are we able to change the biology so spesifically other methods have to be used.

[beez]

Thanks for your replies.

If it's not possible to link symptoms to NTs then how is a person with all kinds of weird symptoms supposed to figure out where exactly here problem is?

Then this seems absolutely impossible.

I mean I for example struggle with symptoms which are a bit like adhd but I tried ritalin and it did nothing for me and then I was more learning towards glutamate being my issue

cause I'm irritable and overexcited in a negative way. I spend most of the day basically doing nothing productive. I often can't even decide what to do. I have much to do and

in the end I do nothing and then feel bad about myself. This happens every day. I can't even decide what I want to do. Even if I say to myself I'll not do anything and just relax then

I still cannot find peace and simply do something and relax. If I watch TV for example I am obsessively switching channels and if there are various things running which all interest me

then I cannot decide what to watch. It's stimply totally annoying. I notice so many things about me which hinder me in daily life and I simply don't know what causes this.

I am sure it's something neurochemical but without knowing what NTs are involved I have no chance of trying to improve it.

[Ultravioletbllc]

I think that this discussion is a great example of why you need too be your own advocate

 

If say through Trial and error you are discovering that something like depression is only mediated by a glutamergic or dopaminergic and that ssris or snris have not helped you in anyway THEN YOU WILL KNOW too a degree what the issues are related too

 

But TREAD CAREFULLY I have been more and more dissapointed through out the years as it seems like im reading jama and or pubmed articles more regularly then my Mental health care team has , it really gets my gears going when a doctor has never heard of several Viable albeit lesser known (send seemingly "popular" with the nootropic crowd) treatments

 

 

It isnt very progressive but the best idea that has been put too practice by ME has been this

 

 

Discuss what HAS NOT helped you ... Research research Research and if you have an idea of something you would like too try First present the symptoms to the doctor , then wait persist with the symptoms ( and if you want something in particular become very familiar with the use and reasoning for prescribing the drug) and when you feel it is right print out as much Verifiable information on treatment and effects as you can find and present them too your doctor

 

 

In the USA doctors are very hesitant and seem almost unwilling too treat Depression in any other route then serotonin bases meds while in the past few years this has changed too a degree ( doctors arent so safraid of say wellbutrin or stratera ) its still a pretty sad state of affairs

 

and sometimes a little healthy manipulation can a go a long way in these situations

 

at the end of the day Be your own advocate Own your Problems but Do the best thing (including treatments) that is best for you

[mealz13]

I think that this discussion is a great example of why you need too be your own advocate

 

If say through Trial and error you are discovering that something like depression is only mediated by a glutamergic or dopaminergic and that ssris or snris have not helped you in anyway THEN YOU WILL KNOW too a degree what the issues are related too

 

But TREAD CAREFULLY I have been more and more dissapointed through out the years as it seems like im reading jama and or pubmed articles more regularly then my Mental health care team has , it really gets my gears going when a doctor has never heard of several Viable albeit lesser known (send seemingly "popular" with the nootropic crowd) treatments

 

 

It isnt very progressive but the best idea that has been put too practice by ME has been this

 

 

Discuss what HAS NOT helped you ... Research research Research and if you have an idea of something you would like too try First present the symptoms to the doctor , then wait persist with the symptoms ( and if you want something in particular become very familiar with the use and reasoning for prescribing the drug) and when you feel it is right print out as much Verifiable information on treatment and effects as you can find and present them too your doctor

 

 

In the USA doctors are very hesitant and seem almost unwilling too treat Depression in any other route then serotonin bases meds while in the past few years this has changed too a degree ( doctors arent so safraid of say wellbutrin or stratera ) its still a pretty sad state of affairs

 

and sometimes a little healthy manipulation can a go a long way in these situations

 

at the end of the day Be your own advocate Own your Problems but Do the best thing (including treatments) that is best for you

This, this, and this.  Honestly, I knew more than all of my psychiatrists.  You have to be your own advocate.  Educate yourself on the different neurotransmitters and suggest medications that alleviate those imbalances.  Of course, we may not know exactly why drugs work and which neurotransmitters, if any, are effecting our psyche, but it's a hell of a lot better than we had 50 years ago.  I mean, I now know for certain that what is wrong with my brain has something to do with the pathways zoloft effects; that's more than enough to suggest to doctors different medications.  Whether its the adrenergic receptors or serotonin reuptake or something else, I don't know, but it's better than knowing nothing at all, like thinking there are demons inside you or some shit like that.

[Ultravioletbllc]

Agreed , I've found I'm my own best shot when it comes too dealing with my mental health as in I choose my therapist , psychiatrist , what meds I'll take Gand this is important as I learned by trial and error ie I won't take ssri s or benzodiazepine drugs for my PTSD and I won't use Wellbutrin for ADHD due too PTSD , if a dr won't provide the medication I need I'll get it myself .

[beez]

Hi,

are you talking about drugs which are not officially antidepressants?

But what exactly? I mean I won't be messing around with stuff like DA agonists or antagonists which aren't used for depression at all.

I think this would be a too huge risk. And if you stay within the range of AD drugs then you're limited. Then you only have the ssri,snri,ndri,maois,tricyclics. It's not really that much

but even these drugs have side effects which can be very dangerous. I'd not even dare to take a tricyclic or maoi.

I also have no idea what my problem is. I can only tell that ritalin didn't work, wellbutrin didn't work and celexa also didn't work. Tianeptine made me worse. And unfortunately

memantine which I had high hopes in also didn't help me with my cognitive,brain fog issues. I am very discouraged.