• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Could these be signs of serotonine syndrome?

ssri

  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 beez

  • Guest
  • 47 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Eurasia
  • NO

Posted 19 May 2014 - 01:10 PM


I'm really worried.

Yesterday I started with escitalopram. I took a 10mg pill and broke it in half 2 times so that I got around 2,5mg.

I felt normal during the day. In the evening I had some soup with black pepper and curcuma. I read curcuma can work like a MAOI.

And yesterday I also had a whey protein shake.

Today I wake up and my head simply feels hot and I also feel like I'm craving oxygen. I was lying in bed and not moving and still I felt like I

had to breathe pretty hard. I measured my temp and it was normal.

Now, a few hours later I feel better but this was still very scary.

What if this was a sign of SS? I'm totally intimidated now.

I called the company and asked them if whey protein + escitalopram is safe and the doctor there couldn't really tell me for sure.

He said that it also depends on the dose. The higher the ssri dose the bigger the risk of SS.

Great! If I take escitalopram and then only stay at 5mg or so it probably has no chance of working at all.

When I was taking celexa I was at 20mg and felt nothing. Then escitalopram at 5mg will also not work.

Back when I was on celexa I also experience weird muscle pulsations on my body. This also freaked me out.

 

What do I do now? I'm totally scared of SS now. Now I don't even dare to have a whey shake anymore.

What am I supposed to eat in the morning now? Where shall I get my protein? Whey is such a good source of protein.

 

What shall I eat now to get some protein? In the morning I need something which can be blended. What am I supposed to blend instead of whey?

Oh my this sucks so much.


Edited by beez, 19 May 2014 - 01:16 PM.


#2 Phoenicis

  • Guest
  • 339 posts
  • 80
  • Location:-
  • NO

Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:01 PM

did you do a blood pressure reading?



sponsored ad

  • Advert
Advertisements help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.

#3 beez

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 47 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Eurasia
  • NO

Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:41 PM

No, I do not have high BP.

Why? You mean high BP is a sign of SS?



#4 Tom_

  • Guest
  • 1,120 posts
  • -31
  • Location:england

Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:59 PM

First off whey protein and SSRI's are safe. Whey protein and irrervsable MAOI's are not, they can cause hypertension.

 

You can assume that since they are neither warnings on the incert slip about SSRI's and cummin (however you spell it) and its not forbiden on an MAOI diet that it is perfectly safe. It may be an MAOI but a very very very very weak one.

 

You didn't describe any of the symptoms of mild Serotonin syndrome: high temp 39C, myoclonus (typically of the lower body), dialated puples, mild agitiation with cognition mostly intact or hypomania, headache, severe sweating, halluncinations, tachycardia 120+ and uncontrolable shivering. Furthermore symptoms would have developed much quicker appering within 3-6 hours.

 

Serotonin syndrome in people taking a full dose of escitlopram (10-20mg) is about 1:5000-1:10000. In these cases it often takes up to a week for full blown symptoms to emerge. Its not uncommon for people to take small overdoses of up to 100mg without experiencing any or many symptoms of serotonin syndrome. Life threating overdoses with SSRI's alone are almost impossible, simply due to the amount of pills that have to be swallowed. Even patients treated with the MAOI Phenalzine and Fluoxetine (prozac an SSRI) not all present with any detectable serotonin syndrome and those that had mild symptoms. Phenalzine and Tranlycpromine are often used together with Lithium (potentiates serotonin) and of 3 or 4 studies I have read no one presented with serotonin syndrome.

 

What you did describe perfectly was a panic attack. Feelings of impending doom (can be non-spesific, fear of attack or as in your case fear of a severe medical problem), feeling agitated and scared, with rasing thoughts. Heart rate often increases and some mild sweating is common. Feeling very hot or cold and hyperventilation (breathing to fast), feelings of being smothered of unable to breath, nausa, abdominal discomfort (sometimes severe enough to make them be sick), numbness, feeling dizzy, lightheaded and as if you are going to pass out (if hyperventilation is prolonged and severe people sometimes very briefly pass out as this forceably reduces breathing rate) and palpatations. Obviously you didn't mention even half of these and not all apply to each person but I feel the symptoms you did mention fit better and the statistically the chance of serotonin syndrome at 2.5ish mg (not to mention no serotonin syndrome from citalopram at 20mg) is about a 100-1000 times less likely than a panic attack.

 

The best short term way to deal with a panic attack is first to do the last thing you want to - slow your breathing, taking deep, slow breaths. Once you have achieved that it is best to distract yourself for ten mins or so doing something you find enjoyable. By which time you will likely find yourself feeling fine, or at least a lot less jittery.
 

I hope the information about the rareness of serotonin syndrome goes some way to reducing your fear you might experience it.

 

By the way Phoenicis hypertension isn't seen in serotonin syndrome unless the toxicity is moderate-severe, mostly because the tachycardia isn't fast enough and the excess sertonin needed to cause a massive release of cortisol and adrenaline is quite significant.


Edited by Tom_, 19 May 2014 - 05:02 PM.

  • like x 1
  • dislike x 1

#5 beez

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 47 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Eurasia
  • NO

Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:33 PM

Hi Tom,

thanks for the answer. Do you study medicine?

What worried me even more is that I called the company and spoke to a doctor on the phone and he said that

he can't really say if protein + ssri is safe cause there are no studies and he also said that it depends on the dose.

If I for example was on 20mg then the risk would be bigger. Basically talking to him didn't help me with my concerns.

 

But what I had was definitely not a panic attack. I basically woke up from the sleep and noticed that my head/face simply felt totally warm. The rest of the body not.

During the night I also remember having a fast pulse. But I sometimes have this. Sometimes for example I wake up during the night and my heart is totally racing, but not

out of sync. But it's still weird. But the thing is when I get this and I'm on a ssri then I worry, of course.

Also the weird feeling of heat is unusual. I never have this. I can't really say what this was but my first thought was serotonine syndrome.

 

Can you tell me a bit more about serotonine syndrome? I mean if it comes then does it come slow or is it possible that you go to bed and then wake up with fullblown SS?

What worries me is that if SS can have symptoms of a flu then what for example shall I do if I catch a cold and feel ill and also have a false pulse? Then I'd be freaking and

thinking what if isn't a flu? For someone like me with anxiety this isn't good at all.



#6 Tom_

  • Guest
  • 1,120 posts
  • -31
  • Location:england

Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:34 AM

No I don't study medicine, although the libary of medical books I buy, that I can't afford (haha) would suggest different!

 

You have to remember, if the guy you speak to doesn't know he has to give the safest answer for the company. Furthermore are you sure you were actually speaking to a doctor? He is correct, as far as I know there haven't been any studies but there haven't been any studies on a lot of combinations that are considered perfectly safe for use on the basis of there being no theoretical concerns. I know plenty of people who take serotoinergic antidepressants and protein poweder.

 

The red flush could have been a benien flush or from a panic attack or a inuermal other non-serious physiological responses.

 

I can't stress enough the low likelyhood of someone developing SS just on a single antidepressant.

 

Serotonin syndrome is on a spectrum - from a very heavy side effect burdon ((which isn't strictly considered serotonin syndrome, as there is no grossly abnormal pathophysiology) there are other reasons for a heavy side effect burdon) all the way through to a deep coma with status epelepticus, extreme hyperthemia, renal failure, tachyarrithmias and agitation (reactions like this have to the best of my knowledge never been reported apart from in extremely large overdoses, typically with mixed drugs).

 

Once a critial amount of serotonin has been reached symptoms will become noticable in anything from 1/2 to 3 hours, increasing in severity ususaly for 3-6 hours before a fairly rapid decrease in symptoms (if its an overdose symptoms can reach a height of severeity, then don't change much for sometime).

 

Serotonin syndrome doesn't present as flu, although a poor diagnosticaion might miss the diagnosis. However if you were to have serotonin syndrome that could present as the flu (to someone who doesn't  know what they are looking for) then there really isn't a problem as you are at no risk of life threatening symptoms.

 

The differences from the flu you are looking for are: more perfuse sweating, myoclonus (inparticular the legs), over-response reflexes, tachycardia, dialated pupils and changes in mental status indicative of agitiation rather than retardation. In some cases nearing a moderate toxicity significant hypertension might be seen.

 

The hunter criteria for diagnosis (based on the largest study of antidepressant overdoses) is the generally accepted criteria for SS.

 

The presense of a serotoniergic agent + one of the following:

  • Spontaneous clonus, or
  • Inducible clonus plus agitation or diaphoresis, or
  • Ocular clonus plus agitation or diaphoresis, or
  • Tremor plus hyperreflexia, or
  • Hypertonism plus temperature > 38 °C (100 °F) plus ocular clonus or inducible clonus

 

 

 

 


  • like x 1
  • dislike x 1

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Advertisements help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.

#7 beez

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 47 posts
  • 3
  • Location:Eurasia
  • NO

Posted 22 May 2014 - 06:37 PM

Hello,

yes I was talking to a doctor but I also felt like he didn't want to guarantee me anything which he can't really say for sure.

Usually you're simply told to talk about this with your doctor.

 

I'm at 5mg escitalopram now and yesterday I took 10gr whey protein and nothing happened. I feel a bit safer now.

Usually I use around 20mg whey in the morning in my morning shake. During the day I don't use whey.

 

Even though this is only day 4 of escitalopram I already notice the negative sexual side effects which is surprising that it works that fast.

 

How is myoclonus defined?

In the past when I was on other drugs like celexa or memantine I noticed that especially on the legs but also on other muscles I'd get

fast twitches. Usually in the morning when I was lying in bed I could feel that muscles are twitching fast. For example when I rolled my

trousers up and then looked at the area around the knee where the twitching was taking place I could see that something was moving there. These twitches were definitely caused by the drugs. I didn't really know what to make of it. They also didn't appear every day. When I started memantine they came rather frequent but stopped after a while.

 

Btw, I taped my own sleep using a camera with IR light which is motion activated.

What surprises me is that I'm moving my legs in my sleep. I'm not aware of this. For example I turn on the back and then pull one leg

towards the body and seem to sleep in this position. It's weird.

I'm definitely going to keep videotaping my sleep. The camera was activated at least 16 times last night which means I'm moving around a lot. I also know that my sleep isn't good. I do not feel refreshed in the morning at all.

I also have problems finding a pillow which doesn't make my neck and head hurt. I bought a really expensive pillow and then noticed after a few weeks that it causes neck pain. Now I'm using a normal pillow again and I also cannot find a position which feels comfortable.

 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: ssri

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users