Posted 21 May 2014 - 02:02 PM
Has anybody in this forum ever tried, or knows someone that has tried the stem cell therapies from EmCell in Ukraine?
They claim to use pluripotent non-specialised fetal stem cells. It is one of the oldest clinics in the world to offer this treatment.
It is an expensive treatment, probably over 15,000$.
Provided you have all the money in this world and no ethical issue with the use of fetal stem cells would you give it a try as an anti-aging treatment or for reversing mental decline/ilnesses?
Posted 21 May 2014 - 03:43 PM
I think as a technology it is certainly part of the future, however as for the location of Ukraine and unproven claims of treatments that cost lots of money, especially when many of the both more advanced and cheaper countries like Korea, Israel haven't managed to pull it off. My scepticism of any stem cell therapy being practicably useful is pretty high at this point in time.
As for anti aging there are so many other alternatives to consider from something as simple as exercise, c60, that new david sinclair study, to hormone replacement to blood transitions like (epo), NSI, Dihexa.
If we are talking about serious mental decline the problem is cascading, as I understand it the problem with curren stem cells is more to do being unable to establish a specialised role in a complex ecosystem like the brain or a organ, which is why tissue replacement is the only thing that works at the moment, and the tissue replacement needs to be very specific being incorporated in a scaffolding which emulates that ecosystem.
Of course the body is also very good at just fixing things itself, but that doesn't quite answer the question why stem cells can't just be injected into missing tissue, and the body immedietely adapts it into that type of system, my guess is that incorporating random stem cells doesn't install the programming required for the body to make those stem cells change into what is necessary and go in the right place.
Kind of like when a baby grows from a few cells into organs, it follows a route of cascades which programs what the stem cells transform into ultimately e.g. heart tissue. As there is no natural programming against the deterioration of diseases like alzheimers, the body would have little "execution protocol" for extra unspecialised cells, at best it will turn into more purposeless tissue, at worst the stem tissue could just become cancerous.
^ As I think of it, for example the body is only programmed to grow your heart once, your brain once, your legs once etc, if you just shove it a bunch of stem cells, doesn't it make sense that there is no electronic protocol to put those cells into the eco system or upgrade it?
For simple tissue replacement its already been tried and tested, they printed an entire trachea, they are working to print organs, but of course for people at the end of the line and rich as bill gates, injecting a bunch of stem cells randomly, maybe it will work why the hell not lol.
Posted 21 May 2014 - 07:53 PM
When you get a blood transfusion, it contains someone else's stem cells. Your body will eventually kill them as it rebuilds it's own blood supply. Transplanted organs, even under the best circumstances will be killed by your immune system if you don't take pills to prevent rejection by impairing your immune system. Impairing your IS won't be good for your beauty or your health either. Someone else's stemcells are a waste of money and lives. What you need are your own stem cells to be cultured and retransplanted. This is the kind of research being done by SENS and a Morgan Spurlock show recently highlighted a company that could reprint your DNA with the necessary corrections. It's just a matter of time until we can do things the right way, so why even bother with the wrong way unless you have alterior motives? I expect a judge or jury wouldn't help you either when you get ripped off. Your money is better spent on REAL (Research to Extend and Amplify Lifespans) medical research
Posted 21 May 2014 - 08:23 PM
When you get a blood transfusion, it contains someone else's stem cells. Your body will eventually kill them as it rebuilds it's own blood supply. Transplanted organs, even under the best circumstances will be killed by your immune system if you don't take pills to prevent rejection by impairing your immune system. Impairing your IS won't be good for your beauty or your health either. Someone else's stemcells are a waste of money and lives. What you need are your own stem cells to be cultured and retransplanted. This is the kind of research being done by SENS and a Morgan Spurlock show recently highlighted a company that could reprint your DNA with the necessary corrections. It's just a matter of time until we can do things the right way, so why even bother with the wrong way unless you have alterior motives? I expect a judge or jury wouldn't help you either when you get ripped off. Your money is better spent on REAL (Research to Extend and Amplify Lifespans) medical research
eh? I thought the idea of the therapy was to inject you with your own stem cells? what would be the point if they were not?
Posted 21 May 2014 - 09:24 PM
Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:45 PM
Thanks for the replies and valuable feedback.
Major legend the reason for which countries like Korea or Israel have not achieved those results is probably because they cannot use fetal stem cells for ethical reasons. Can it be the case? I am not aware of those countries legislation.
Cryonicsculture, according to the FAQ of the emcell.com website (point 2) the particular pluripotent fetal stem cells avoid histocompatibility problems: "HLA expression is either absent or minimal"; "immunological tolerance develops upon administration therefore immunosuppression in unnecessary". Can the different type of stem cells differentiate a blood transfusion from this particular treatment? The stage these stem cells are harvested also offers pluripotency but not uncontrollable growth which may cause cancer.
Youtube is full of video testimonials of people from many parts of the world, including the USA, telling their successful story and endorsing this treatment. Of course I am sceptical enough (and not desperate enough) not to rely on YouTube video testimonials that is why I was wondering whether anybody on this forum, many of which are "early adopters", could give an independent review if ever tried this expensive treatment.
I agree with mindpatch when he says that there is a strong ethical issue in using these type of stem cells especially for anti aging purposes.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 12:15 AM
there is a certain level of vanity inherent in it.
Fetal stem cells to help cure disease is one thing, using them to help you live forever is creepy.
Personally I find these comments immature and poorly thought out.
How is it any more vain that a person wants to cure the disease of ageing than any other disease. This all goes back to the strange belief that we should only live for some arbitary set amount of time. If we were to follow this logic, then we should be aiming for an average life span of 30 years as was the case for most of human history.
I think the real issue here is whether this treatment really does work or stands any realistic chance of working.
As for creepy, the only thing I find creepy are people trying to get others to die.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 08:15 AM
Keep in mind that the Clinic allways told good about them self.
I have a far relative who has paraplegia.
He gathered donations and went with his father several times to Russia to get stemcells injected in his spinal cord.
(the cells in the spinal cord behave in the same way as the one´s in the CNS in regards of regeneration)
The results are sobering. His functions went a tiny bit better, but is still paralysed.
An italian scientist said about the current stemcell therapies that they supposedly work like this:
the injected cells dont settle but die and release growth factors and etc. with their death.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 09:10 PM
When you get a blood transfusion, it contains someone else's stem cells. Your body will eventually kill them as it rebuilds it's own blood supply. Transplanted organs, even under the best circumstances will be killed by your immune system if you don't take pills to prevent rejection by impairing your immune system. Impairing your IS won't be good for your beauty or your health either. Someone else's stemcells are a waste of money and lives. What you need are your own stem cells to be cultured and retransplanted. This is the kind of research being done by SENS and a Morgan Spurlock show recently highlighted a company that could reprint your DNA with the necessary corrections. It's just a matter of time until we can do things the right way, so why even bother with the wrong way unless you have alterior motives? I expect a judge or jury wouldn't help you either when you get ripped off. Your money is better spent on REAL (Research to Extend and Amplify Lifespans) medical research
eh? I thought the idea of the therapy was to inject you with your own stem cells? what would be the point if they were not?
Fetal stemcells are taken from failed pregnancies or abortions where it's legal. They aren't your cells.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 09:21 PM
Thanks for the replies and valuable feedback.
Major legend the reason for which countries like Korea or Israel have not achieved those results is probably because they cannot use fetal stem cells for ethical reasons. Can it be the case? I am not aware of those countries legislation.
Cryonicsculture, according to the FAQ of the emcell.com website (point 2) the particular pluripotent fetal stem cells avoid histocompatibility problems: "HLA expression is either absent or minimal"; "immunological tolerance develops upon administration therefore immunosuppression in unnecessary". Can the different type of stem cells differentiate a blood transfusion from this particular treatment? The stage these stem cells are harvested also offers pluripotency but not uncontrollable growth which may cause cancer.
Youtube is full of video testimonials of people from many parts of the world, including the USA, telling their successful story and endorsing this treatment. Of course I am sceptical enough (and not desperate enough) not to rely on YouTube video testimonials that is why I was wondering whether anybody on this forum, many of which are "early adopters", could give an independent review if ever tried this expensive treatment.
I agree with mindpatch when he says that there is a strong ethical issue in using these type of stem cells especially for anti aging purposes.
I'm not familiar with HLA, but it's certainly not the sole switch that will allow this stuff to be viable. It's complex, and the immune system recognizes thing that aren't the same as it is. Besides, we're literally able to laser print cells at high accuracy that are devoid of problems, fully compatible with the host, and can be upgraded at the request of the host. This technology is just slowing down other technologies and the human resources that aren't aware of the improved technologies would be better allocated to the technologies that don't come with ethical problems. It is almost always the case that more ethical technologies will be biologically and scientifically superior to the unethical shortcuts. It's a waste of time and resources that competes with technologies that are more viable on many levels. The more ethical tech would also develop faster if the unethical didn't exist as an option. Give this a listen.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 09:24 PM
Keep in mind that the Clinic allways told good about them self.
I have a far relative who has paraplegia.
He gathered donations and went with his father several times to Russia to get stemcells injected in his spinal cord.
(the cells in the spinal cord behave in the same way as the one´s in the CNS in regards of regeneration)
The results are sobering. His functions went a tiny bit better, but is still paralysed.
An italian scientist said about the current stemcell therapies that they supposedly work like this:
the injected cells dont settle but die and release growth factors and etc. with their death.
If you want growth factors... buy them in bulk (lookup midkine) or get some dear antler velvet spray.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:07 PM
I just wanted to point out that You cant replace lost cells by injecting foreign cells. Its not that simple
As far as I remeber the scientist was even reffering to ip-stemcells.
I will post the refference if I dont forgett it
Btw: thx for the antler extract suggestion. I know also humanobol as a growth factor cource
Edited by Flex, 22 May 2014 - 11:16 PM.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 05:04 AM
Found this
http://scienceblogs....ckery-in-italy/
I didnt read the whole blog but I have to revise my comment on IPSC because it seems promising:
PET Demonstrates Functional Recovery After Transplantation of Induced Pluripotent Stem Cells in a Rat Model of Cerebral Ischemic Injury
http://jnm.snmjourna.../5/785.full.pdf
Or even the Stroke Study form Neuralstem using NSI-566
http://www.neuralste...ischemic-stroke
Posted 24 May 2014 - 07:02 AM
Found this
http://scienceblogs....ckery-in-italy/
I didnt read the whole blog but I have to revise my comment on IPSC because it seems promising:
PET Demonstrates Functional Recovery After Transplantation of Induced Pluripotent Stem Cells in a Rat Model of Cerebral Ischemic Injury
http://jnm.snmjourna.../5/785.full.pdf
Or even the Stroke Study form Neuralstem using NSI-566
Interesting and long blog article. It focuses on MSC not on pluripotent fetal stem cells but it still highlights the author scepticism towards these third countries stem cell clinics. I wonder whether induced pluripotent stem cells are as effective as fetal stem cells. I guess at this stage only desperation could justify spending over 15,000 dollars for unproven treatments abroad.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:39 PM
Yes desperation can be sometimes do more damage...
Afaik( so take it with a grain of salt) fetal stem cells get destroyed by your immune system since they are foreign.
like a transplanted kidney, where You need to take a lifelong Immunosuppressive drugs to prevent the damage.
Using IPSC which are derived from Your own body, wont destroy them.
Comparing solely the types of the IPSC and the Fetal Stemcells:
The Fetal ones are supposedly superior, because they are in a condition where they can virtually turn in any cell of the body.
The IPSC ones are..how to say.. one step further in the development, so they cant turn in any cell type.
(Again, as far as I know. Pelase do a recherche on Your own if You want to be 100% certain)
You could look out for reliable Scientific Journals, governmental or News Sites to gather some further informations.
Sometimes it´s easy to find, but sometimes google drives one mad (at least me)
Edited by Flex, 24 May 2014 - 03:40 PM.
Posted 22 August 2017 - 09:21 PM
a friend of mine got antiaging treatment there (mid 40s), there is of course no rejection of fetal stemcell, they dont have yet antigenes for your immune system to see them as "not your cells"
his results: felt more energetic and better but no drastic rejuvenation according to his words but we cannot take him as an example because of drug (no drugs after the cell transplant but alcool still there) and alcool adiction, smoking, bad diet no excercise, waistline (better we dont check there)....he said he s trying to avoid some alcool but.....
does he look yonger than his age?
to me yes and with his lifestyle he should be a piece of trash, no antiaging therapy can work on this lifestyle but might help keep him healthy and aging normally
my thoughts
face: no sagging at all, healthy skin color
hair: no grey
beard: few grey
wrinkles: we cannot say, little botox but you d never say he has unnatural face
he looks 38yo and definitely younger than his age, we did not met since 2006, he said i am the same....i find him definitely overweight
my sister thoughts from pictures (she s very good at picking age from face pics), 37-38yo
he will have treatment again this year and he is satisfied.the cost is 10.000euro
i m thinking to have it too to try correct a subclinical hypothyroidism non autoimmune, very mild and antiaging.of course my lifestyle is totally opposite than his
Edited by lost69, 22 August 2017 - 09:35 PM.
Posted 22 August 2017 - 10:27 PM
What you want are your own rejuvenated cells on a regular basis. Stem cell studies seem to agree that it's the frequency that leads to successful treatments rather than the volume of cells in a single dose. Fetal stem cells might be different, but I'd still rather have a homogenous set of cells over a bunch of fetal stem cells, though they'd be interesting to compare. The question is, how do we make embryonic stem cells from cells that come out of your blood or other tissue and enhance them to a younger state. That's my goal.
So let's say I get fetal stem cells, do they have all the same functions of my body which supports my intelligence and personality type? Where are they coming from? Did the fetus have a disease? Will it's cells develop one? I think I'm more fond of cryopreservation as a means of ethical birth control. We'll eventually have enough space on orbitals etc for everyone and I don't think embryonic cells were ever meant to be a permanent solution to anything. They're a transient technology in the scope of what will be immortality medicine. Let's say you live 200 years on fetal SCs, now you have the cells of several other people and disease proclivities developing in you, and multi genotype diseases are going to be more complicated to fix and understand. If you want to live forever, this might get in the way of that.
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
Community Forum Software by IP.Board
Licensed to: ImmInst.org
