54 replies to this topic

[misterE]

Insulin is defiantly a satiety hormone my friend. Potatoes (one of the most insulinogenic foods known to man) is also the most satiating food! And insulin is required for leptin synthesis.

 

What causes leptin-resistance is the same as what causes insulin-resistance; high levels of FFAs and triglycerides which inhibit the transport of leptin thru the blood-brain-barrier. If you were starving to death, your subcutaneous body-fat stores are becoming depleted and the levels of FFAs in the blood are increasing. This scenario would cause leptin-resistance to occur in order to make you hungry, so that you eat and stop starving to death. The decrease in insulin-secretion and the depletion of subcutaneous body-fat reservoirs decreases the amount of leptin your adipocytes make, plus the high levels of FFAs and triglycerides circulating in the blood then impairs the leptin that is already present within the body from promoting its satiating effects.

 

Eating starches and sugars and spiking your insulin, lowers FFAs and shuttles fat inside the adipocyte, which enables leptin-synthesis to occur and enables leptin to make its way inside to brain and decrease appetite. Rule of thumb: anytime the adipose-tissue is undergoing lipolysis (like in starvation or diabetes) leptin-signaling decreases.

 

Diabetics have reduced androgens and IGF-1 because they either can't make enough insulin to stimulate IGF-1 and testosterone production... or the insulin they do make is unable to stimulate IGF-1 and testosterone production due to the body being resistant to the effects of insulin.

 

Atkins and other high-fat ketogenic-diets mimic the effects of type-1 diabetes. One of the consequences of diabetes is an increase in ketones and FFAs and also accelerated weight-loss (as in wasting away; depletion of subcutaneous-fat reserves and a decrease in muscle-mass due to excessive lipolysis and proteolysis).  

 

Edited by misterE, 31 May 2014 - 04:01 AM.

[gt35r]

"Atkins and other high-fat ketogenic-diets mimic the effects of type-1 diabetes. One of the consequences of diabetes is an increase in ketones and FFAs and also accelerated..."

 

I will agree with that. The first time you said it made you diabetic I assumed you meant it lead you into becoming insulin resistant. 

 

In terms of satiety ketogenic diets takes the win. It is what they are known for. I did both, I did ketogenic at one point and I did a general low calorie diet; both happen to make you lose weight that is proportionate to your caloric intake. 

 

"Atkins and other high-fat ketogenic-diets mimic the effects of type-1 diabetes. One of the consequences of diabetes is an increase in ketones and FFAs and also accelerated weight-loss (as in wasting away; depletion of subcutaneous-fat reserves and a decrease in muscle-mass due to excessive lipolysis and proteolysis).  "

 

I am pretty sure the proteolysis lasts a very short period of time; just like all low calorie diets you body becomes proteolytic for a short term. Once you start making ketones muscle proteolysis is minimal. The lag time until sufficient ketone production is usually less than four days. 

 

"Diabetics have reduced androgens and IGF-1 because they either can't make enough insulin to stimulate IGF-1 and testosterone production... or the insulin they do make is unable to stimulate IGF-1 and testosterone production due to the body being resistant to the effects of insulin." 

 

Won't dispute that fact.

 

The problem with your original statement of "atkins makes you diabetic" is that you still retain control of your blood sugar when you are doing a ketogenic. Unlike diabetics, your fasting blood sugar won't rise beyond the healthy range. Unlike a diabetic you won't get a blood sugar of 300 for eating a bagel.  

 

So to say the atkins diets make you diabetic is an over simplification. The only parallel that ketogenic diets have is that glucose is not utilized as a primary source (unless the diabetes is treated).

 

In ketogenic diets you do not...

 

...get hyperglycemic from modest carbohydrate intake

...excess ketones

...ketoacidosis  

[misterE]

 

{1} The first time you said it made you diabetic I assumed you meant it lead you into becoming insulin resistant. 

 

{2} In terms of satiety ketogenic diets takes the win. It is what they are known for.

 

{3} I am pretty sure the proteolysis lasts a very short period of time 

 

{4} The problem with your original statement of "atkins makes you diabetic" is that you still retain control of your blood sugar when you are doing a ketogenic.   

 

 

 

{1} It does. Insulin is what prevents you from becoming diabetic. That is why a type-1 will die if they don't receive insulin. Since carbohydrates make your body naturally produce insulin, carbohydrates are literally needed to prevent type-2 diabetes. Insulin-resistance can also be caused by starvation, due once again to a lack of insulin.

 

{2} Ketones suppress appetite because Mother Nature gives you some mercy as you starve to death. Prolonged fasting at first is very uncomfortable, but as your body adapts to ketones appetite decreases. Someone with a fever or illness doesn't have an appetite because if you are ill, you shouldn't be running around trying to gather and prepare food... you should be recuperating.

 

Ketosis is a catabolic-state. Starch eating also strongly suppress appetite but instead of making you catabolic like the ketogenic-diet does, it puts you in an anabolic-state, where you are building tissue and making sex-hormones like testosterone, instead of breaking down tissue and making stress-hormones like cortisol, which is what you get with ketogenic-diets. 

 

{3} Well it lasts until the brain and blood-cells stop functioning. Proteolysis occurs to create gluconeogenic-substrate. The purpose of gluconeogenesis is to create glucose to feed the brain and red blood-cells (which require glucose to maintain function). The brain uses ketones as a way of slowing down the energy demands for glucose.

 

{4} No you don't because without invoking insulin-secretion, gluconeogenesis stays uninhibited and blood-sugar continues to rise. The cause of elevated blood-sugar in diabetics isn't from eating carbohydrates, but rather excessive gluconeogenesis... this is well established in the literature. Like I said before, starving people of carbohydrates will makes their blood-sugar rise drastically, whereas if you feed people carbohydrates, their blood-sugar stays normal. I know it seems like a paradox, but the body has a counter-regulatory system installed. If you eat lots of carbohydrates, the body makes insulin and lowers blood-sugar. If you restrict carbohydrates, the body makes glucocorticoids and increases blood-sugar.

Edited by misterE, 31 May 2014 - 05:00 AM.

[gt35r]

1."It does. Insulin is what prevents you from becoming diabetic. That is why a type-1 will die if they don't receive insulin. Since carbohydrates make your body naturally produce insulin, carbohydrates are literally needed to prevent type-2 diabetes. Insulin-resistance can also be caused by starvation, due once again to a lack of insulin.

 

 

If insulin keep your form being diabetic than type 2 diabetic must not be diabetic at all. Look up what diabetes mellitus; it means sweet urine. Show me how many people on a ketogenic diet have glucose in their urine. 

 

Just admits that the state "atkins diet makes you diabetic" is an over simplification. Diabetes is marked by the inability to control blood sugar.

 

 

2. Ok good at least we can agree that ketogenic diets tend to reduce appetite. 

 

3. Proteolysis and muscle dependent proteolysis are not the same. If you eat less than 40g of protein a day ( maybe 25 -30g for some) you will get proteolysis of the muscle regardless of of calorie or carbs; muscle are a resveoir for amino acids. If you are not amino acid deficient (I consumed around 90grams when I did a Keto diet) you will not experience any meaningful proteolysis of the muscles. If you have free amino acids available to your body, muscle is not used to get amino acids. Btw you know the the glycerol end of the triglyceride goes into gluconeogensis right? There are multiple pathways to gluconeogensis and when you have an abundance of glycerol you can make 6-carbon sugars like glucose. 

 

 

Answer these questions for me?

Do ketogenic diets cause hyperglycemia? ketoacidosis? Do ketogenic diets results in glucose in the urine?

[gt35r]

Missed this earlier.

 

"Like I said before, starving people of carbohydrates will makes their blood-sugar rise drastically, whereas if you feed people carbohydrates, their blood-sugar stays normal. I know it seems like a paradox, but the body has a counter-regulatory system installed. If you eat lots of carbohydrates, the body makes insulin and lowers blood-sugar. If you restrict carbohydrates, the body makes glucocorticoids and increases blood-sugar."

 

You know what else low blood sugar does? Increase HGH. HGH increases blood sugar. We can discuss every little discrepancy of what low insulin can and will do but I have a feeling you have put me the in "Keto-only, atkins" camp which I am not.

 

My initially response had to do with "atkins diet makes you diabetic" which is a very broad oversimplification. 

 

You are telling me about IGF and glucoticoids like I did not know these things when in reality it has nothing to do with what diabetes actually is. 

[Darryl]

Lots of evidence implicates dietary and intramyocellular C16-24 saturated fats (and their ceramide metabolites) in insulin resistance. Whether that matters for lean humans on predominantly unsaturated fat ketogenic diets hasn't been tested. At least in lard & butter fed mice, keto leads to severe hepatic insulin resistance.

 

Riccardi, G., Giacco, R., & Rivellese, A. A. (2004). Dietary fat, insulin sensitivity and the metabolic syndrome. Clinical nutrition, 23(4), 447-456.

Chavez, J. A., & Summers, S. A. (2010). Lipid oversupply, selective insulin resistance, and lipotoxicity: molecular mechanisms. Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA)-Molecular and Cell Biology of Lipids, 1801(3), 252-265.

Jornayvaz, F. R., Jurczak, M. J., Lee, H. Y., Birkenfeld, A. L., Frederick, D. W., Zhang, D., ... & Shulman, G. I. (2010). A high-fat, ketogenic diet causes hepatic insulin resistance in mice, despite increasing energy expenditure and preventing weight gain. American Journal of Physiology-Endocrinology and Metabolism,299(5), E808-E815.

 

 

[misterE]

 

 

 

{1} If insulin keep your form being diabetic than type 2 diabetic must not be diabetic at all.

 

 

{2} Just admits that the state "atkins diet makes you diabetic" is an over simplification. Diabetes is marked by the inability to control blood sugar.

 

 

{3} If you are not amino acid deficient  you will not experience any meaningful proteolysis of the muscles.

 

 

{4} If you have free amino acids available to your body, muscle is not used to get amino acids.

 

 

{5} Btw you know the the glycerol end of the triglyceride goes into gluconeogensis right?

 

 

{6} Do ketogenic diets cause hyperglycemia? ketoacidosis?

 

 

{7} Do ketogenic diets results in glucose in the urine?

 

{1} Type-2 diabetics have hyperinsulinemia, but all that excess insulin is unable to promote its effects. It's insulin-deficiency at the cellular-level, despite having excessive insulin in the blood. Hyperinsulinemia is a protective adaptation taken by the body as a desperate attempt to lower blood-sugar and blood-lipids.

 

{2} Not it is not. What causes diabetes is a lack of insulin at the cellular-level. Ketogenic-diets do not induce insulin-secretion, so therefore the body cannot be sensitive to a hormone it is lacking.

 

{3} Insulin is needed for protein-synthesis and for the inhibition of proteolysis. Insulin lowers free amino-acids by transporting them out of the blood and into the muscles. That is why diabetics have increased levels of BCAA in their blood.

 

{4} Protein is insulinogenic. But eating protein without carbohydrates will cause an insulin-spike, but without proper glycogen-stores, the protein induced insulin-spike will lower blood-sugar too much, which causes a stress-response, meaning you get an increase in glucocorticoids to compensate, which elevates blood-sugar by stimulating gluconeogenesis. ---- thanks to rwac for teaching me this.

 

{5} Sure. This is probably to slow the rate of muscle-proteolysis. Also excessive glycerol release from adipose-tissue lipolysis is one of the main causes of elevated blood-sugar in diabetics (along with increased conversion of amino-acids into glucose).

 

{6} Yes they do. Seminal work from Sweeney dating back to the 1920's clearly showed that removing carbohydrates from the diets causes blood-sugar to elevated to diabetic-levels. Four groups of young college-students were examined and placed on different diets. A high-protein diet, a high-fat diet, a high-carbohydrate diet and a starvation control group. When testing their blood-sugars, they noted that all of the groups were considered diabetic based on their blood-sugar except the high-carbohydrate group. The study was considered a strange paradox back then in the 1920's, but today we know about the counter-regulatory mechanisms of blood-sugar metabolism and how insulin and glucocorticoids work to regulate blood-sugar. The reason the high-carbohydrate group didn't have elevated blood-sugar and diabetes was because they were spiking their insulin and suppressing their glucocorticoids with all the carbohydrates they were eating, while the other groups were spiking their glucocorticoids and suppressing their insulin-secretion.

 

 

{7} No because all of the glucose being made by the glucocorticoids would be going to fuel the brain and blood-cells. But if a diabetic was to eat a high-carbohydrate diet without insulin-secretion, then yes, some would spill over into the urine, but that is with exogenous carbohydrates not endogenous glucose (or in other words the glucose your body makes itself because it needs it).

[misterE]

 

 

{1} You know what else low blood sugar does? Increase HGH. HGH increases blood sugar.

 

 

 

{2} You are telling me about IGF and glucoticoids like I did not know these things when in reality it has nothing to do with what diabetes actually is. 

 

{1} Yep. HGH increases during times of tremendous stress, like exercise, fasting, starvation and diabetes. Did you know that diabetics have extremely high levels of GH? Insulin lowers GH by promoting the conversion of GH into IGF-1.

 

{2} That is complete bullshit. Don't take this personally--- but having just said that shows how confused you are about the physiology of diabetes. Elevated glucocorticoids are one of the main causes of diabetes, and any well researched person who knows about diabetes would understand this.

 

 

 

Edited by misterE, 31 May 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[misterE]

{1} Lots of evidence implicates dietary and intramyocellular  saturated fats (and their ceramide metabolites) in insulin resistance.

 

 

{2} Whether that matters for lean humans on predominantly unsaturated fat ketogenic diets hasn't been tested.

 

{3} in lard & butter fed mice, keto leads to severe hepatic insulin resistance.

 

 

 

 

{1} That is right, and the way those saturated-fats got there was from excessive lipolysis...caused by glucocorticoids.

 

{2} Unsaturated-fats are much easier to oxidize, but doing so in large amounts is unhealthful.

 

{3} I personally don't think that the butter and lard CAUSE diabetes per say, but rather the mice were being deprived of insulin-secretion, which transports the lard and butter into the adipocytes were it can't accumulate as intracellular-lipids and contribute to insulin-resistance. Insulin also stimulates delta-9-desaturase which makes it easier for the body to oxidize the lard and butter by converting it into unsaturated-fats.

[gt35r]

 

 

 

{1} You know what else low blood sugar does? Increase HGH. HGH increases blood sugar.

 

 

 

{2} You are telling me about IGF and glucoticoids like I did not know these things when in reality it has nothing to do with what diabetes actually is. 

 

{1} Yep. HGH increases during times of tremendous stress, like exercise, fasting, starvation and diabetes. Did you know that diabetics have extremely high levels of GH? Insulin lowers GH by promoting the conversion of GH into IGF-1.

 

{2} That is complete bullshit. Don't take this personally--- but having just said that shows how confused you are about the physiology of diabetes. Elevated glucocorticoids are one of the main causes of diabetes, and any well researched person who knows about diabetes would understand this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So do you still stand by your statement that atkins/keto diets cause Diabetes?

 

You still did not answer the basic questions I asked.

 

If a non diabetic goes on a ketodiet do they...

 

...develop ketoacidosis?

...produce glucose in their urine?

...develop hyperglycemia?

 

You are picking the similar the a ketogenic has with diabetes while ignoring the things that they don't have in common. Do you still stand by your statement the an atkins diet makes you diabetic? 

 

Keto-diet does not make you diabetic. They have some similarity in their  physiology but that is a far cry from making you diabetic. 

Edited by gt35r, 31 May 2014 - 04:24 PM.

[misterE]

 

 {1} So do you still stand by your statement that atkins/keto diets cause Diabetes?

 

{2} You still did not answer the basic questions I asked.

 

{3} You are picking the similar the a ketogenic has with diabetes while ignoring the things that they don't have in common.

 

{4} Do you still stand by your statement the an atkins diet makes you diabetic? 

 

{5} Keto-diet does not make you diabetic.

 

{6} They have some similarity in their  physiology. 

 

 

{1} Yes.

 

{2} Yes I did. And I answered them with very good answers too.

 

{3} Why don't you tell us what they don't have in common then? I've already thoroughly explained the simularities and the lack of difference between the two.

 

{4} I already answered this numerous times. YES! Atkins, ketogenic-diets and starvation makes you diabetic.

 

{5} I guess you just don't get it. Good luck to you.

 

{6} Why in the world would someone want to mimic or simulate the physiology of diabetes?

 

 

 

As a side note: the reason why I think Atkins and ketogenic-diets are so popular is because they grant you access to rich-foods that people enjoy eating. It is much more appealing and easier to follow a diet that lets you eat unlimited quantities of eggs, cheese, steak, bacon and sausage... all you have to do is go thru a drive-thru at McDonalds, order a double-bacon cheese-burger, throw away the bun and scrap off the ketchup... how easy is that? Following a diet based on barley, pasta, potatoes, beans and oatmeal isn't as sexy and those foods are much easier to give-up than all those rich animal-products.

 

 

Edited by misterE, 02 June 2014 - 02:45 AM.

[bracconiere]

Quote: "all you have to do is go thru a drive-thru at McDonalds, order a double-bacon cheese-burger, throw away the bun and scrap off the ketchup... how easy is that? Following a diet based on barley, pasta, potatoes, beans and oatmeal isn't as sexy and those foods are much easier to give-up than all those rich animal-products."

 

This is off topic from what the OP started but, I agree with that statement. another quote from McDougall would be "people like to hear good news about their bad habits".... Animal products lack a lot of the B Vitamins essential for humans, not to mention, unless you eat the awful too, A, C, K. And a host of minerals and essential fatty acids. That come readily from grains, seeds, greens, fruits. Mostly in the Germ and bran of grains.

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[gt35r]

{1} Yes.

 

{2} Yes I did. And I answered them with very good answers too.

 

No you didn't. Also, self proclaiming that an answer is very good is kinda silly. 

 

{3} Why don't you tell us what they don't have in common then? I've already thoroughly explained the simularities and the lack of difference between the two.

 

I already told you why they are not the same thing. No ketoacidosis, no loss of blood sugar control, not hyperglycemia, no glucose in the urine,  Ketogenic diets are also rapidly reversible; diabetes, if at all, is not rapidly reversible.  Type 1 diabetics can't even use the glucose that the liver makes via gluconeogensis effectively, ketogenic diets can utilize the glucose.

 

{4} I already answered this numerous times. YES! Atkins, ketogenic-diets and starvation makes you diabetic.

 

It does not make you diabetic. They express some of the same physiological responses but that does not constitute it being diabetic. Humans have two legs, chimpanzees have two legs. Humans and chimps are both primates. A human is not a chimpanzee.  Two things can be similar, but not be the same in all regards.

 

{5} I guess you just don't get it. Good luck to you.

 

I understand that they have some things in common but to say that a ketogenic diet makes you diabetic is misleading.

 

{6} Why in the world would someone want to mimic or simulate the physiology of diabetes?

 

It mimics some but not all physiological properties of diabetes. I guess you just don't get it. Good luck to you.

 

 

...

 

The side note is, for the most part, not worth addressing because it aims to straw-man this discussion. I already told you earlier I am not in the camp with ketogenics; my dispute was with the way you label something as making someone diabetic. Also a low carb diet is not that sexy; you just described fast food sources for low carb, you don't think high carb fast food can be obtained in a similar manner? 

[gt35r]

by the way, I have to apologize to the OP and others because this is now all off topic and It is my fault. If you feel like discussing this other wise, I am more than glad to speak to you via phone misterE. Please let me know via PM.

[misterE]

--gt35r

 

 

I'm done trying to convice you. You are increasing my cortisol levels. I've put forth my best argument and whoever reads this will have to make their own choice.

[Chupo]

Gabriel Cousens discusses low fat high carb diets as compared to his low carb rainbow diet  regarding diabetes.  

 

 

 

 

 

Cousens' low carb, mostly raw food diet was used to reverse diabetes in this documentary:  

 

Edited by Chupo, 07 June 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[misterE]

Gabriel Cousens discusses low fat high carb diets as compared to his low carb rainbow diet  regarding diabetes.  

 

 

 

OK... but if you look at this video, you can clearly see that this Gabriel Cousens fella, clearly contradicts himself:

 

 

 

 

[TheFountain]

I am finding that Sprinting once a week is adequate for fat loss, along with proper diet and weight training twice a week. Between these more intense work outs do 'normal' stuff, like take light walks and clean your house. 

[Chupo]

 

Gabriel Cousens discusses low fat high carb diets as compared to his low carb rainbow diet  regarding diabetes.  

 

 

 

OK... but if you look at this video, you can clearly see that this Gabriel Cousens fella, clearly contradicts himself:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nah. It just means he's able to learn and change his views in light of new evidence and experiences, which is quite admirable.   

[gt35r]

For most americans the main problem is just the sheer volume of calories. I promise you if you eat large volume of calories on a High carb low fat OR low fat high carb you will have problem. 

[misterE]

For most americans the main problem is just the sheer volume of calories. I promise you if you eat large volume of calories on a High carb low fat OR low fat high carb you will have problem. 

 

Would you agree that it's much easier to eat more calories on a high-fat/high-sugar diet compared to a high-fiber/high-starch diet?

[misterE]

 

 

 

 

 

Nah. It just means he's able to learn and change his views in light of new evidence and experiences, which is quite admirable.   

 

 

He's a quack. He's now is scared of fructose because he says it turns to fat and causes diabetes, yet he recommends a high-fat diet? Eating too much fructose causes an increase in the same saturated-fats that you get from eating steak or butter.
 

[gt35r]

 

For most americans the main problem is just the sheer volume of calories. I promise you if you eat large volume of calories on a High carb low fat OR low fat high carb you will have problem. 

 

Would you agree that it's much easier to eat more calories on a high-fat/high-sugar diet compared to a high-fiber/high-starch diet?

 

 

Yes.  I agree.

 

But if the question is high fat/low carb/ moderate protein vs high starch/low fat/moderate protein then idk. 

[misterE]

 

But if the question is high fat/low carb/ moderate protein vs high starch/low fat/moderate protein then idk. 

 

 

I would say it is easier to overeat calories when on a high-fat diet because fat is more calorie-dense than carbohydrates and fat doesn't stimulate insulin and leptin, which shuts off the appetite.
 

[gt35r]

 

 

But if the question is high fat/low carb/ moderate protein vs high starch/low fat/moderate protein then idk. 

 

 

I would say it is easier to overeat calories when on a high-fat diet because fat is more calorie-dense than carbohydrates and fat doesn't stimulate insulin and leptin, which shuts off the appetite.
 

 

 

Ancedotaly, I have done a ketogenic diet (High fat, moderate protein, low fat), a Low fat diet (High carb, moderate protein, Low fat) and a High protein diet (low fat, high protein, moderate carb) and to me a ketogenic diet ended up being the easiest. Once your body begins making ketones your apetite seems to go away. On a ketogenic diet, somedays I had trouble eating just 1,000 calories just becuase I had no apetite.

 

It is much harder to overeat on vegetables and whole grain but if you begin to eat processed carbohydrates like bread and pasta then it becomes pretty easy to over eat.