14 replies to this topic

[cyric]

Just to paint a mental picture for you all, here is a senario to understand what I mean:

Imagine: Neo(the Matrix) + the Space Marines(Warhammer 40,000) + the Master Chief(Halo), etc.

I just want your views...

Q1: Would you want it? (if yes) > how badly?

Q2: Would it be enough?

Q3: How would it be done?

Q4: Do you think EVERYONE deserves it, or just those that can take it?

Q5: Where would you stop?

Q6: Why would you want it?

[John Schloendorn]

I'd like to issue a little warning here against the use of the word "eugenics". This term is often used to describe not only the goal of transcending human limitations per se, but also certain ineffective and morally despisable means to do so, e.g. the direct killing or sterilization of those that you think have an "inferior" genotype. With such means, the goals you describe would obviously be utterly unattainable.
I understand that the means you are having in mind here are in a completely different class, but I'm a little worried that the explicit debate of "eugenics" at imminst may be misunderstood by critics of the institute. That is why I'm adding this comment.
A less controversial way to express what you mean might be "cybernetics", "extropy" or "transhumanism".

[apocalypse]

I'd like to issue a little warning here against the use of the word "eugenics". This term is often used to describe not only the goal of transcending human limitations per se, but also certain ineffective and morally despisable means to do so, e.g. the direct killing or sterilization of those that you think have an "inferior" genotype. With such means, the goals you describe would obviously be utterly unattainable.
I understand that the means you are having in mind here are in a completely different class, but I'm a little worried that the explicit debate of "eugenics" at imminst may be misunderstood by critics of the institute. That is why I'm adding this comment.
A less controversial way to express what you mean might be "cybernetics", "extropy" or "transhumanism".

While under most any circumstance reproduction will not present a problem, it will eventually've to be regulated, at least somewhat, IMHO. The resources in any location are finite, and while we can export/import addditional resources eventually that too will hit a limit, and in any case the number of resources that can be kept/accumulated at any location at anyone time are finite also(unless the laws are more flexible than they seem.). Given that there's a limit to that( resources), even within an artificial reality, the number of individuals that can live with a desired flexibility in use of resources within a particular volume is limited too.

AKA, after a point such society will either have to a.) self-limit itself, b.) some members will have to move out c.) said society will have to use power to force some limitations or face less than desired flexibility in use of resources(lower quality of life than desired, however beyond the present day it may still remain.).

As for modification of human nature, to me it's highly desirable. It's my belief that next-gen replicators will most likely borrow heavily, aka will be heavily based, on the biological/organic molecular structure/design/organization/machinery. Given that, I think it may very well be viable to modify the existing natural replicators that compose the body into next-gen ones... but that will require the ability to deliver/edit/change vast quantities of molecular memory... it seems it may even be desirable to edit some in situ(like those harboring the structural information to call/bring/summon-forth the ultimate, the mind.). Delivery/editting mass quantities in situ, and ensuring efficiency in such a task, may very well require a new type of delivery agent/vector, something that goes beyond such definition.

How powerful would that be? Next-gen replicators, as many've stated, can most likely store and transfer vast information about that which they compose/make, the structure they're part of. Such replicators can be made to be very versatil, capable of intelligent modification, and highly-resistant. With such capability, it finally becomes feasible to achieve the dream of man. By taping into the very nature of this world, the nature... of a world made of information, by understanding such, by mastering such, that which many deemed impossible finally becomes possible. Man has learnt across the ages of the nature of information, that by embedding and replicating it, by spreading it efficiently, and by keeping the keys to its continued understanding and replication at hand throughout the centuries, information can trascend. It can be made nigh-perpetual, nigh-everlasting, immortal within a particular reality, concept.

Finally, the world will change... those who're the least fit will be unable to even injure the fittest. Even the weapons powered by the fundamental unit, by the atom itself, will be rendered powerless. Postman need not fear man, for man is powerless before him, for this appears to be the outcome of the laws of the universe, of reality itself. This appears to be the absolute truth written across the very fabric of the cosmos, that those blessed with divine grace, intellect, and beauty, those closer to the divine need not fear, for theirs is the world. The verdict has been written before the dawn of time, logic itself dictates, that man is not the heir of the universe, the princes of the universe, are to be his descendants.

It seems the end of the age of men is at hand, at last, and trascendence is to take place. To the pantheon, to the celestial sphere, to that which has been deemed divine/trascendent/celestial throughout history, before history... will the mind finally arrive, finally its nature is to be unshackled, finally the blessings will be at hand, finally that which processes information will be king of all it surveys... power without end, boundless/infinite/limitless, will be bestowed upon the descendants of man.

[cyric]

Exactly the reply I was looking for. But the realisation of this, to transcend the pinnacle of human potential. Our's is the potential to be gods, and many would shy away from such an offering, even call it ridiculous! This is a way to ensure our supremacy and domination throught the uni(perhaps even multi)verse.

I'd like to issue a little warning here against the use of the word "eugenics". This term is often used to describe not only the goal of transcending human limitations per se, but also certain ineffective and morally despisable means to do so, e.g. the direct killing or sterilization of those that you think have an "inferior" genotype. With such means, the goals you describe would obviously be utterly unattainable.
I understand that the means you are having in mind here are in a completely different class, but I'm a little worried that the explicit debate of "eugenics" at imminst may be misunderstood by critics of the institute. That is why I'm adding this comment.
A less controversial way to express what you mean might be "cybernetics", "extropy" or "transhumanism".

And to your warning of the term of eugenics; (at the possibility that some one would misunderstand) that I don't mean cybernetics, extropy or transhumanism (though perhaps the last). I mean exactly as I said, eugenics (not just "selective breeding" but also genetic recombination, and yes, also cybernetics, with some nanotechnology (encompassing replicators) thrown in).

Edited by cyric, 05 July 2005 - 11:45 PM.

[John Schloendorn]

So how would you want to become a "space marine" with selective breeding and genetic engineering? The first thing this would imply is to kill yourself to make room for someone with more muscles.

[cyric]

If you've ever read about them (from Warhammer 40000), you would see that their physical prowess is impressive. But yes...there are "genetherapy" techniques that you could use to rewrite/edit your DNA. eg; hollow out a virus (removing all the genetic instructions that ultimately make you ill &/or die) and replace the information with new strands of DNA that you wish to add to your own. You then let the virus multiple in peetrie dishes, then inject it directly into your blood stream. The virus "infects" your cells, taking the new DNA into the Nucleus of the cell, effectively altering it.

[Lazarus Long]

Interesting overview of the subject.

Evolving into Superman  

For two generations, technological progress has doubled about once every 18 months. And increasingly, we are focusing this innovation on enhancing humans -- to heal faster, concentrate better and live longer.

But some observers are wary. They say that by tinkering with human abilities, we're losing sight of human nature, culture, and values.

Does Superman have a soul? Can God keep up with information technology? As progress accelerates, we are forced to reconsider what it means to be human, and how we want to shape the future of our species.

· Joel Garreau, reporter and editor of The Washington Post, and author of "Radical Evolution: The Promise and Peril of Enhancing our Minds, Our Bodies - and What It Means to be Human."

Evolving into Superman, Aired: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 8-9PM ET

Real Player

[cyric]

"Human" is just a word, a noun, even an adjective. But yes, the definition of "human" will change dramatically.

The concept of Human and Man (not the gender) being interchangeable, so I think of Human as being our current species, and Man being the definition of our existence (And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth), to rule over the World, nay, the universe.

But again, eugenics (genetic alteration of all kinds for the betterment of humans) is will be one of the many keys to physical immortality, or even godhood.

[Cyto]

Trying to maintain a group while everyone wants to be a 'big-badass-destroyer of worlds?'

I can understand life extension in the sense of making the environment less deleterious, but I don't see this happening by letting everyone becoming their own personal 'bringer-of-doom.'

But yes...there are "genetherapy" techniques that you could use to rewrite/edit your DNA

Not really. We need to attenuate the fusion of vectors so deeper tissues can receive the vector, need to increase the specificity of integration sites from the ~dinucleotide targeting, have refined promoter specific targeting, refine the ability to have something that’s not immunogenic. While there are good prospects like Site Specific Recombinases we still have work to do, if any human is going to start 'pumping away.'

[John Schloendorn]

Cyric, if by not mentioning selective breeding anymore you wish to imply that bringing it up in the first place was a mistake, then cool. That was the major issue I was having with your post.

[cyric]

(Bates)
Trying to maintain a group while everyone wants to be a 'big-badass-destroyer of worlds?

If someone wants to misuse it, that is their choice, I only try to help in the ideas realisation.

(Bates)
We need to attenuate the fusion of vectors so deeper tissues can receive the vector, need to increase the specificity of integration sites from the ~dinucleotide targeting, have refined promoter specific targeting, refine the ability to have something that’s not immunogenic. While there are good prospects like Site Specific Recombinases we still have work to do, if any human is going to start 'pumping away.'

Obviously you're very well read, and you like science deeply...but currently, I don't have acces to the material you present in your arguement. So please bear with me.

(John Schloendorn)
Cyric, if by not mentioning selective breeding anymore you wish to imply that bringing it up in the first place was a mistake, then cool. That was the major issue I was having with your post.

Yes, it was a mistake to only use eugenics, but that is incorporated in my meaning. But I shouldn't have only used it, what I really mean is, complimentation.

(fixed by Laz )

Edited by Lazarus Long, 06 July 2005 - 11:00 PM.

[cyric]

argh...the quotes aren't working properly

[manofsan]

Well, getting rid of bad genes to improve the gene pool won't automatically have to mean killing off an organism with bad genes. If the promise of gene therapy is realized, along with the promise of regenerative medicine, things could simply amount to replacing the genes in an existing organism without killing it off.

[JonesGuy]

I don't know anything about the Halo character, but I'm a big fan of human improvement. I'd like to see progress well-and-beyond what is imagined by combining Neo with a 40k Space Marine.

Q1: Would you want it? (if yes) > how badly?

- I see advancement of my person heavily tied to my extended life-span. So, it's a very high priority.

Q2: Would it be enough?

- Golly, no. John C. Wright wrote a book called "Golden Transcendence". That's more in line with what I'm imagining.

Q3: How would it be done?

Gradually. Integrating computer technology with biotechnology.

Q4: Do you think EVERYONE deserves it, or just those that can take it?

With popularity, the product should become cheaper. Almost everyone in Canada has a color TV. No so, 80 years ago.

Q5: Where would you stop?

I currently could not frame my response.

Q6: Why would you want it?

For a host of reasons, and they're really not important to others. I'm quite attracted to the concept of improving intelligence, however.

[cyric]

urgh! I said earlier that it was a mistake to use the words eugenics...but I don't think there is a word (other than perfection) to say what I mean. So, never mind this thread.

(John Schloendorn)
Cyric, if by not mentioning selective breeding anymore you wish to imply that bringing it up in the first place was a mistake, then cool. That was the major issue I was having with your post.

any way...what is it you think is so wrong about eugenics?

again - LL