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Advanced drug/supplement delivery methods


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#1 adammann

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 04:52 AM


Wondering if anyone is aware of any that are available to the general public.

I have heard about these PEGylated liposomes, and they sound promising, but I gather they still go through first-pass metabolism since they are orally ingested. So they're still not ideal.

I recall reading a few years ago about a novel method of getting substances into the body. It was basically high-pressure transdermal. Kind of like a syringe but without the needle. The contents needed to be solubilised, obviously, and it blasted the contents through the skin, but did so without damaging the skin.
To me this sounded like a definite step-up in the right direction from very outdated delivery methods, including oral. Particularly when considering compounds with very low bioavailablility (eg, curcumin). Anyone know if this is actually out there yet?

I figure since this is 2005 we should have FAR better means of getting necessary nutrients into the body, without waste.

#2 vastman

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 06:37 AM

adamman,
I presume you perused my links on PEG on the supplememts forum relating to KRLA. If not, please do... the PEG option is sublingual, so it is mostly absorbed into the body in the mouth thus bypassing the digestive tract. It's stll kinda crude, I agree, as I can't imagine all the pills I take getting absorbed this way; you'd have to squirt a zillion gobs of the stuff in your cheek and not swollow for hours!!!

FYI, in tracking down some info for another poster on deprynil, I found that they've come out with a transdermal patch to deliver sustained dosages throughout the day for ADD patients. Transdermal patches all over my body??? Goo in my cheeks??? Sure, I'll do it all to get stuff to where it's needed.

Personally I'd much rather have one of those hypospray units the docs use on star trek. It would make it all sooooo much easier. Hope someone has some better info but that's all I've got at the moment.

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#3 adammann

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 03:01 AM

Vastman - Cheers for the reply :)
I missed that PEGs are sublingual. I gotta admit though that I've used sublingual Vit B12 before and wondered how much actually entered that way, as the spray was this this very sweet strawberry stuff...even when sprayed under the tongue, a little would reach the taste bubs and trigger a flow of saliva..hence I think half ended up down the throat.

As for the Star Trek hypospray, that sounds a lot like what I had decribed hearing a few years ago, that high-pressure, no needle delivery method.
Maybe when they master matter transportation they can just beam the molecules directly into the bloodstrem ;)

#4 vastman

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 04:10 AM

right on dude... lets see, dial up my morning regimine, create it in the replicator (is that what they called that thing that makes "earl grey--hot", and beam it into the various places I want it.... cool....

getting back to the real world, I use sometimes use a sublingual spray of ATP and NAD which does the saliva thing a bit and I also use cyprenil liquid drops which stimulate excess saliva even more. I'm learning to relax, kick back, maybe catch a quick dream in the morning which minimizes this a bit.

I also take several sublingual tablets and I don't have this problem with them. I feel this is a great way to get high levels of certain B vits into your system directly. The sublingual tablets have a fairly mellow berry taste and just sit their for 15 to 20 minutes, until their gone. The tabs I'm presently using and find work great include 1) NAD (coenzymeated B3 or nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide), 2) an advanced B -12 complex of methylcobalamin and dibencoxide, 3) straight methylcobalamin and finaly 4) coenzymated B6 (P-5-P or pyridoxal-5-phosphate). They are a great breath freshener, to boot!

I'm an "infomaniac" and will let you know if I hear of anything in this regard and please do the same as it is an issue which interests me... on several fronts. First, this shit costs a ton o bucks and I work hard for every $ I get. Secondly, trying to figure out how to maximize the bodies use of these compounds is the key issue. When do I take this verses that? What's going to compete and thus needs to be done separately? Which form(s) is(are) most effective? With or without food? Single or multiple doses for sustained levels? Synergistic verses antagonistic interactions? Flood the system to overwhelm phagocytes or parse it out? I could go on and on with my concerns/thoughts about this stuff and I think it's really worthy of some serious discussion in this forum. And, until we better understand such factors, how can anyone do comprehensive research on the impact a well thought out program can have? GEEEEZZZEEE this is what's needed but..... No wonder there are soooo many controversies in this arena, when most people look at such a small part of the overall picture.....

I've built my core supplement regimine around AORs main products, CORE, MIND and BONE with several others like strontium because they seem to have raised this issue and considered it the most carefully in their supplement design. I'm really impressed with the information they provide and the rationals they use and clearly spell out for anyone willing to spend the time to understand their thinking. I've read almost everything I can from everyone out there and no one comes close to spelling out their logic... and AOR's logic I generally can't argue with. Sure, their stuff costs a bit more but, I've given up booze and other foolish stuff and am willing to support a company which I consider pretty unique in this regard

I'm also a LEF member and get some of their stuff in their blowout sales and like their database). And, there is still a long list of other things I'm taking from other companies ($$$) and sorting out the issues above for all these compounds is something I'm still struggling with. Need to do more homework on this and develop my formal consumption program and the reasons for it and get some feedback. Of course, following it is another challenge altogether!!!

Edited by vastman, 13 July 2005 - 04:47 AM.


#5 exigentsky

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 12:16 PM

Enteric coated supplements have excellent availability and other benefits. It is probably the best oral delivery system for combinations of nutrients and the best general purpose delivery system overall.

Quality enteric coated supplements have a coating made of pH sensitive polymers that do not break down in the acidic stomach environment, but when passing in the alkaline duodenum (first 25 cm of small intestine) the contents are released.

This coating which is made up of pH sensitive polymers attaches to the tablets and remains intact in the acidic environment of the stomach (pH 1 - 3.5). After passing through the stomach the coating then disintegrates in the small intestine (duodenum) which has an alkaline environment (pH 6.5 - 7.6).

There are several benefits to this:

1. Ingredients are not damaged by stomach acids. (e.g. enzymes are not denatured)
2. Much higher absorption rates because ingredients are directly placed in the small intestine. This is important because the small intestine is the site where almost all of the nutrients from ingested food are absorbed.
3. No irritation of the gastric mucosa, and hence no discomfort.

The disadvantages:

1. Such a delivery system is not common and is usually restricted to advanced pharmaceuticals.
2. This delivery system is expensive.
3. It usually takes at least one and a half hours for the supplement to break down. This is significantly slower than supplements that are not entrically coated.

BTW: PEGylated Liposomes are not taken orally. Read more about them here. and after you are done, continue reading here. Also, here is some interesting information on the future of transdermal patches.

Edited by exigentsky, 13 July 2005 - 01:03 PM.


#6 vastman

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 11:54 AM

ex.... thanks for the transdermal link.... love it when I'm directed to something new. The life-inhancement articles are sure makin the rounds here... I've linked to them on several posts over the last couple weeks...

While you indicated PEG isn't oral, it is.... I use several PEG products. They are suspended in a nice tasting thick liquid I squirt into my mouth, under my lips along the gumlines....sublingualy they are absorbed into the tissues in the mouth. Isn't that oral? Ya don't swollow but they're still oral....I guess it's just symantics we're dealing with here.

Again, thanks for the trandermal link. Also, the entric coating issues you discussed. I've been using costco's entric fish oil and like it very much. Can't be that costly to do as their fish oil is amongst the cheapest I've found. Wish AOR entric coated their pure EPA, which I've recently begun using. It costs enough!

#7 exigentsky

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 07:46 PM

Also, the entric coating issues you discussed. I've been using costco's entric fish oil and like it very much. Can't be that costly to do as their fish oil is amongst the cheapest I've found.


Please point me to this product because I cannot locate it on Costco's website. Are you sure that they say it is enterically coated and not something like "delayed release" or "sustained release"?

In any case, there is a good chance that they are lying about their products being enterically coated. Unless they say that the enteric coating is made of pH SENSITIVE polymers, it is very likely just a protein or even vegetable shellac coating. Such coats work on the basis of estimated time to disintegration (food stays in the stomach 45-120 min) of the coat, and not the environment that the product is in. And these "estimates" are not accurate under every circumstance and for every person. This is sometimes worse than not having any special coat because it may leave the system mostly undigested. Another reason that I think they're lying is because you simply can't really enterically coat soft gels or capsules. (or at the very least it wouldn't be a good solution) But there are a lot of products misleading people into thinking that their soft gels or whatever is enterically coated even though only tablets can be enterically coated successfully.

Note that I am not in the medical field, I just study this stuff in my free time, so don't think that what I write must be 100% accurate.

BTW: Even in products that are actually enterically coated, that does not gurantee the same quality of enteric coating. Some of them may fail to pass basic tests. Here are some guidelines that all good enteric coated medicine should meet:

1. No disintegration of the tablet after 2 hours in a fluid simulating the stomach.
2. Total disintegration of the enteric coating after 12 minutes in a buffeted pH environment simulating the duodenum.
3. Total disintegration of the tablet within 60 minutes of entering the duodenum.

Always ask the supplier who enterically coats their products and if they meet these guidelines.

Furthermore, there isn't even just one type of enteric coating, for example there is solvent based enteric coating and aqueous enteric coating, but that's for another post.

#8 vastman

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 11:31 AM

ex....love these kinda conversations. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you...my birthday and all.

As to your question....yea, Kirkland signature item # 719701 "Enteric Coated Extra Strength Fish Oil concentrate" . Each softgel; 240mg EPA 200 mg DHA. It's a white softgel. They list a vitamin infoline @ 1-800-428-7782. Most Kirkland products are of high quality. The packaging notes "the enteric coating reduces the fishy odor and aftertaste by protecting te softgel until it reaches te lower intestine." No info regarding the issues you raise however, I'd suggest you check it out... a great deal. I've larglely shifted to EPA brite, 100% EPA from AOR based on the latest info but still take a couple enterics at night.

be well.....

#9 exigentsky

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 04:50 PM

Sorry, but I still cannot find it. The closest product to what I was looking for is this. But that product does not claim to be enterically coated. Maybe you can point me to Kirkland's official website.

Thank you!

BTW: Happy late birthday!

Edited by exigentsky, 21 July 2005 - 05:09 PM.


#10 vastman

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 09:03 AM

exi,
did you call the 800-428-7782 info hotline I cited? It's listed on the bottle! Maybe costco on-line doesn't sell this (or a website-oversite haha!). I just picked up another bottle last week in San Leandro Costco store and have seen them at both the other two Costcos in the area. Call the hotline and give them the info listed in my last post if you don't have a store nearby. They might not know it's not on the website; I double checked the site to make sure you didn't miss it and you're right, it ain't there.... But I'm taking one of these little white capsules right now! Call them.....

be well...

Edited by vastman, 22 July 2005 - 09:18 AM.


#11 vastman

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 09:09 AM

Exi.... in looking at the website you linked I tried searching for the item number and read that Costco on-line carries products which "complement" their warehouse items..., i.e., they don't necessarily have it all.... which I guess is now obvious!

Google "Kirkland signature enteric coated fish oil and you'll get this:

Product search results for Kirkland Signature enteric coated fish oil
Kirkland Signatur Enteric Coated Extra Strength Fish - $15.75 - eBay
Kirkland Signature Enteric Coated Extra Strength Fish Oil - $16.95 - MyPatientEducation
Kirkland Signature Enteric Coated Extra Strength Fish Oil ... - $17.88 - Best 4u Buy
Find more products at Yahoo Shopping, MySimon, CNET Shopper, NexTag, StreetPrices, Shopping.com, eBay

Fish oil - Omega 3
Kirkland. Fish Oil Enteric Coated Extra Strength. Product Highlights ... Kirkland Signature fish supply comes from deep ocean waters. Our fish oil is not ...
www.nutrivea-usa.com/Fish_ Oil_Enteric_Coated_Extra_Strength.htm - 89k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

Omega 3 Fish Oil Supplements
Kirkland Signature Enteric Coated Extra Strength Fish Oil. pad, Kirkland Signature Enteric Coated Extra Strength Fish Oil ...
www.mypatienteducation.com/om3fioilsu.html - 37k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

Member's Mark Enteric Coated Omega-3 Fish Oil - 1000mg
... Member's Mark Enteric Coated Omega-3 Fish Oil - 1000mg s842206 ... My Patient Education related products: Kirkland Signature™ Fish Oil Concentrate 1000 mg. ...
www.mypatienteducation.com/memaencoomfi.html - 36k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages - Filter
[ More results from www.mypatienteducation.com ]

VitaSprings.com - Nature Made Fish Oil 585mg Enteric Coated 180 ...
... Hi-Tech Pharm, Hyland's, Instone LLC, iSatori, ISS Research, Jan Tana, Kirkland Signature, Klein Becker ... Omega-3 / Omega-6 Fish Oil Enteric Coated ...
www.vitasprings.com/ nature-made-fish-oil-585mg-enteric-coated.html - 57k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

VitaSprings.com - Fish Oil Supplement, Omega 3 Fish Oil Discount
Kirkland Signature Fish Oil Concentrate 1000mg 300 Softgels ... Nature Made Fish Oil 585mg Enteric Coated 180 Softgels (Omega-3 / Omega- ...
www.vitasprings.com/fishoilsupplement.html - 73k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter
[ More results from www.vitasprings.com ]

Kirkland Signature™: Health & Wellness
Kirkland Signature™ Fish Oil Enteric Coated 180 softgels · Kirkland Signature™ Fish Oil Enteric Coated 180 softgels Code:719701 Price: $16.99 ...
www.medicalprovisions.com/miva/merchant. mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=KIRKLANDSIGNATURE - 100k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

Heart / Mental: Health & Wellness
719701, Kirkland Signature™ Fish Oil Enteric Coated 180 softgels, Kirkland Signature™ Fish Oil Enteric Coated 180 softgels, $16.99 ...
www.medicalprovisions.com/miva/ merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=HM - 55k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter
[ More results from www.medicalprovisions.com ]

Nutrition - Find, Compare, and Buy at Shopping.com
Fisol, enteric coated, fish oil delivers 30% EPA and 20% DHA. ... from 2 stores. Kirkland Signature Glucosamine / Chondroitin - 250 Tablets ...
www.shopping.com/ xDN-Nutrition--bones_and_joints~V-grid~PG-4 - 62k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

[PDF] Fish oil supplementation: Evidence for health benefits
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Kirkland Signature fish oil concentrate. 180/120. 3. $0.07. Member’s Mark omega-3 fish oil ... Miglioli M. Effect of an enteric-coated fish-oil prepara- ...
www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Harris304.pdf - Similar pages - Filter

Fish Oil Supplement, Omega 3 Fish Oil Discount
... Fish Oil Concentrate 1000mg 300 Softgels. Kirkland Signature Fish Oil Concentrate 1000mg 300 ... Nature Made® Fish Oil 585mg Enteric Coated 180 Softgels ...
shop.store.yahoo.com/vitasprings/fishoilsupplement.html - 88k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

NOW SAMe 100 mg Enteric Coated - 30 Tabs
... the Sun Hi-Tech Pharm Instone LLC iSatori ISS Research Jan Tana Kirkland Signature Klein Becker K ... Home > Liver Health > NOW SAMe 100 mg Enteric Coated - 30 Tabs. ...
shop.store.yahoo.com/vitasprings/ same-100-mg-enteric-coated.html - 78k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages - Filter
[ More results from yahoo.com ]

Code Enteric-Coated Fish Oil Concentrate
Kirkland Signature™ Fish Oil Concentrate 1000 mg ... Kirkland Signature Enteric Coated Extra Strength Fish Oil. pad, Kirkland Signature Enteric Coated Extra ...
4621.fitness.p9z.info/ - Similar pages - Filter

DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS – POPULARITY, QUALITY, SAFETY, EFFICACY
Enteric coating can affect absorption, and the pH of the stomach can affect how quickly the enteric coating ... Do you test fish oils for PCBs and dioxin? ...
www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~shlevy/ dietsuppqualitysafetyefficacy.htm - 300k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

Cholesteral And Fish Oil
... DHA, 500 mg, 90 Enteric Coated softgels Scientific ... EPA Fish Oil Omega 3, Max, 1g - 100 ... Kirkland Signature™ Fish Oil Concentrate 1000 mg My Patient Education ...
boltondrug.com/EPA-DHA%20caps/ --cholesteral-and-fish-oil.html - 19k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

Costco.com
... Joint Movement Liquid Glucosamine/Chondroitin, $18.99, Kirkland Signature™ Enteric Coated Extra Strength Fish Oil Concentrate - 180 Softgels, $11.55, ...
www.costco.com/Common/Category.aspx?whse=& topnav=&cat=1010&hierPath=589*&Browse= - 84k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

Costco.com
... Nature Made® Fish Oil 585mg Enteric Coated 180 Softgels $3.00 Off, $15.99, ... Kirkland Signature™ Children's Chewable MultiVitamin, $10.89, ...
www.costco.com/Common/Category.aspx?whse=& topnav=&cat=770&hierPath=589*&Browse= - 101k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages - Filter
[ More results from www.costco.com ]

Discover benefit of fish oil pill and rescue 1250 fish oil here.
Amazing benefit of fish oil pill and enteric coated fish oil here. Because But, if your body is ... kirkland fish oil · kirkland signature natural fish oil ...
www.thesupplementreport.com/ benefit-of-fish-oil-pill.htm - Similar pages - Filter

Nutrition - Find, Compare, and Buy at DealTime
Kirkland Signature" Triple Strength Glucosamine HCI 1500 mg/ Chondroitin Sulfate 1200 mg 170 ... Nature's Way Fisol Fish Oil - 180 Sg. Enteric-Coated. ...
www.dealtime.com/xDN-Nutrition--nutritional_ supplements--world_class_nutrition~V-rows - 99k - Cached - Similar pages - Filter

Googling is great.....as you can see... the above is just a bit of the results.

be well....

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#12 exigentsky

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 12:36 PM

Thank you,

This is what I was looking for, though it really does suprise me that the online store is not as vast as the physical store. Usually it is the other way around!




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