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Why is there SOMETHING rather than NOTHING?

mystery secret riddle

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#301 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:31 PM

serp777:  "You're making the claim that a physical eternal object is impossible. my argument is that we don't know what everything consists of therefore premise one of the kalam rests on faulty assumptions. You're claiming that you do know what everything consists of since you know there can't be an eternal, physical objects" SH makes a statement that I need to provide evidence in spite of this obvious explanation.


Talk about am argument from ignorance and a straw man you are completely misrepresenting premise one.  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.  I then asked you to name something physical that does not have a cause.  (The evidence)  Of course you completely ignored this because the evidence for premise one is everything that changes and is physical.  Everything physical has the characteristic of premise one.  You have no evidence nor do you have an explanation..
 

 

"ALso, assumong God exists are you claiming that he isn't powerful or omnipotent enough to create an eternal physical object?" Things need not begin to exist making premise one irrelevant.

Again you want to talk about God and attempt to put words in my mouth.  Haha You need to read premise one again and again until you get it.
 

 

"The multiverse also has some evidence supporting it, such as early inflation theories . " Then you ask for evidence after I provide this.

The BGVT disputes this.





 

 

I am sure readers will recognizes shadowhawks characteristic ignoring of arguments with a couple of unrelated sentences.

Who is ignoring the evidence?  :)
 


Edited by shadowhawk, 19 December 2014 - 11:33 PM.


#302 serp777

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 10:40 AM

 

serp777:  "You're making the claim that a physical eternal object is impossible. my argument is that we don't know what everything consists of therefore premise one of the kalam rests on faulty assumptions. You're claiming that you do know what everything consists of since you know there can't be an eternal, physical objects" SH makes a statement that I need to provide evidence in spite of this obvious explanation.


Talk about am argument from ignorance and a straw man you are completely misrepresenting premise one.  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.  I then asked you to name something physical that does not have a cause.  (The evidence)  Of course you completely ignored this because the evidence for premise one is everything that changes and is physical.  Everything physical has the characteristic of premise one.  You have no evidence nor do you have an explanation..
 

 

"ALso, assumong God exists are you claiming that he isn't powerful or omnipotent enough to create an eternal physical object?" Things need not begin to exist making premise one irrelevant.

Again you want to talk about God and attempt to put words in my mouth.  Haha You need to read premise one again and again until you get it.
 

 

"The multiverse also has some evidence supporting it, such as early inflation theories . " Then you ask for evidence after I provide this.

The BGVT disputes this.





 

 

I am sure readers will recognizes shadowhawks characteristic ignoring of arguments with a couple of unrelated sentences.

Who is ignoring the evidence?  :)
 

 

 I have not committed a strawman; just saying I have done a strawman does not make it true. 

 

"you are completely misrepresenting premise one.  "

 

Please show me how I am misrepresenting premise one. Again simply stating I am does not make it true; without providing any kind of explanation this is just a red herring like your previous strawman assertion. 

 

" I then asked you to name something physical that does not have a cause. "

 

I clearly described how you have the burden of proof to show that every physical object has a cause. Why would I have to give evidence that there are physical objects that have no cause when I am not assuming that there are any?  I don;t claim I know that there are physical objects without cause, but you are making the assertion that there are no physical objects without cause. Why would I need evidence for something I am not assuming either way? You're being completely illogical. 

 

my argument is that we don't know what everything consists of therefore premise one of the kalam rests on faulty assumptions. Since we don't know what everything consists of, I don't assume that all physical objects are caused. I am not claiming that there certainly are physical objects that don't have a cause; my argument is that we don't know. You're asking me to provide evidence about things we don't know about. Explain how that makes sense SH. You have the burden of proof to show that a physical object without cause is impossible, otherwise the kalam premise 1 rests on bald faced assertions. 

 

You utlimately keep missing this fundamental point which is why you don't understand my argument. You are asking me to provide evidence for something that I don't assume is necessarily impossible. You are arguing from ignorance. Furthermore, showing that there are no physical objects without cause would require you to show that the eternal multiverse, for example, which does not require a cause since timeless means causality is not necessary, is impossible. Then you would have to show that EVERYTHING physical has a cause or use some kind of logical proof. Kalam premise one rests on assumptions in conclusion.

 

"Again you want to talk about God and attempt to put words in my mouth.  Haha You need to read premise one again and again until you get it."

 

 

Haha I'll go and quote where you talk about God since you're a liar. 

 

For instance you talk about atheists which obviously brings in theism because you bring in atheism

 

" I know why an atheist needs something physical to be there and call it nothing.  Why do you need to redefine nothing as something physical?

Nothing produces nothing but it has to for an atheist. "

 

When  you ask the question where did your God come from you are asking a physical question. Anything of a physical nature is caused, or begins to exist.  It comes from someplace.  Space. time energy ect. are all contingent on something else.  God did not arise or begin.

 

^Here you directly mention God. It's really sad that I need to go back and quote your blatant lies. 

 

And lets not forget your strawman fairy tale which makes references to God numerous times. I can't even believe you keep saying that you don't talk about God when its so obvious to all the readers and anyone who has even the most basic memory. Liar, Liar, pants of fire. 

 

Whatever it was, or wasn't, it was definitely not God. Certainly not God. This something-nothing huffed and puffed and blew the universe into existence! Out of not-nothing-but-not-God poofed an entire...something...from a not-nothing nothing. Or was that a something-not...Never mind.

Anyway…

So, the not-God-not-nothing-nothing exploded a universe that was super-perfect for life

 

I just want the readers to recognize that SH is quite obviously trying to deceive the audience by making it seem as if he did not bring God into the discussion when he in fact did so numerous times and was even the first person on the thread to start talking about atheism, which is obviously an attempt to bring theism into the discussion.

 

Who is ignoring the evidence?

 

Well considering you haven't provided any evidence for premise 1 of the kalam, I couldn't ignore evidence since it does not exist. I would love for you to provide evidence for the kalam premise 1 as it would provide a truly fascinating insight on the world. However, even if the kalam premise 1 was valid, it would not resolve the question of why there is something instead of nothing, so to be honest i am not sure why you brought it up. Perhaps it was the same reason why you brought up God and atheists. 


Edited by serp777, 20 December 2014 - 10:42 AM.


#303 DukeNukem

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 10:22 PM

 

Talk about am argument from ignorance and a straw man you are completely misrepresenting premise one.  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.  I then asked you to name something physical that does not have a cause.  (The evidence)  Of course you completely ignored this because the evidence for premise one is everything that changes and is physical.  Everything physical has the characteristic of premise one.  You have no evidence nor do you have an explanation..
 

 

Okay, so you claim as a factual statement that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause."  Then you ask to "name something physical that does not have a cause?"

My point to you is very simple:  In your factual statement, the word "physical" is not used.  It simply states, whatever begins to exist has a cause.  Thus, you're trying to use sneaky wording in your follow-up by adding the word "physical."

 

The fact is, any god (physical or non-physical) must has come into existence--otherwise they spent an endless eternity waiting to create our universe.  You try to make gods special by saying they exist outside the universe, but that's just more silly excuse-ridden wordplay on your part, and NO ONE HERE is buying your wording tricks and twisting of reality.


Edited by DukeNukem, 20 December 2014 - 10:24 PM.

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#304 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 09:03 PM

DukeNukem:  Okay, so you claim as a factual statement that "Whatever begins to exist has a cause."  Then you ask to "name something physical that does not have a cause?"

My point to you is very simple:  In your factual statement, the word "physical" is not used.  It simply states, whatever begins to exist has a cause.  Thus, you're trying to use sneaky wording in your follow-up by adding the word "physical."

The fact is, any god (physical or non-physical) must has come into existence--otherwise they spent an endless eternity waiting to create our universe.  You try to make gods special by saying they exist outside the universe, but that's just more silly excuse-ridden wordplay on your part, and NO ONE HERE is buying your wording tricks and twisting of reality.


The classic Kalam does not use the word “physical,” but it identifies what it is talking about, namely something that “begins.”  Since that applies to the physical universe, that is what the kalam addresses.  Whether it is factual or not depends on the over whelming evidence to support it. That is why I asked you to name something “physical,” that didn’t become and you didn’t do it..  All you seem able to do is call me, “sneakey Pete..”  Get serious.  Do you know what an eternal regress is and the issue it raises for why there is sonething rather than nothing?  No eternal  series of events could ever get to now.  Therefore you can’t have a caused, cause, as you have tried to make God since that would be an eternal regress.  Since we are not addressing God here let me simply say an inflationary, becoming cosmos, must have a beginning.  The kalam stands.  I have defended this at legnth in the first section, “Evidence For Christianity.”  See the discussion there.
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#305 shifter

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 11:10 PM

What if all of you are wrong. What if there was no beginning? What if everything there is JUST IS and there was never a point where there was an abscence of anything.

 

You, me and everyone else are trying to draw conclusions based on a very limited and incapable (in the grand scheme of things) mind.

 

Sorry, but the level these arguments have degraded to are just childish and petty.

 

If you want to speculate, that's all well and good. But the 'I'm right and your wrong' is tiresome after the collective pages in all the atheist vs theist and similar themed threads. Disagree and debate sure but at least have the grown up courtesy to respect a differing view point regardless of the source and that goes for both theists and atheists.

 

The title of this thread is a leading question...... We still do not know how the universe began and from what. We do not know if we are but one universe inside a multiverse (and how that started). We still do not know about dark matter and do not know how many dimensions could exist.

 

Without occupying all dimensions how can you generate all the answers? If something 'lived' occuping only 2D, the universe and laws would look a lot different. How could one possibly derive answers from so much missing information?? I propose that us existing in 3D is equally missing out on a lot of information.

 

Another thing to consider is dark matter which makes up apparantly the majority of the universe. We dont even understand it. And from Wiki

 

According to the Planck mission team, and based on the standard model of cosmology, the total mass–energy of the known universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% dark energy.[3][4] Thus, dark matter is estimated to constitute 84.5% of the total matter in the universe, while dark energy plus dark matter constitute 95.1% of the total content of the universe.[5][6]

 

We cant observe it so who is to say before the big bang there wasn't a lot of dark matter or similar. Maybe so much of this dark matter/energy converged and blew up? Maybe the big bang is nothing but a huge antimatter/matter explosion??? (perhaps dark matter has dark anti-matter) Of course I am only speculating.... Point is, It's possible that the 'Big Bang' existed inside a matter occupied universe and was not its birth from 'nothing at all'. It wouldn't matter if we could use a telescope to see 'time before the big bang' (we have come close to the point of it) we wouldn't see anything but that doesn't mean that nothing was there.

 

Another thing. If each particle of matter has an antimatter component and we are made up of matter, then where is all the antimatter? For CERN to produce just 250grams worth of antimatter will take it 2.5 billion years... How many grams of matter are around us?? Why is antimatter so elusive considering it should be made up in equal parts

 

Anyway here is an article in New Scientist speculating on where all the antimatter could be or ended up

http://www.newscient....html#.VJnz5AAs

 

I like a debate and I like being corrected or counter points made (how else to learn things) but it would be good to read a thread that's full of stimulating ideas instead of childish bickering. Let's face it, we only exist within a fraction of a fleeting moment inside a universe thats essentially infinite. It's silly to argue as if we know whats really going on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#306 shadowhawk

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 03:00 AM

:)  The topic presents the problem.  Do you think you answered it or "Know," we didn't.?  How do you know and I didn't read anywhere you answering the issues that have been raised.  I know we are childish and I look forward to an adult answer.  :)


Edited by shadowhawk, 24 December 2014 - 03:04 AM.

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#307 shifter

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 04:12 AM

The topic assumes a state of nothing is an alternative. How do you know that could be a case? It's frankly a leading question based on what could be an entirely false premise. I believe that such a state has never existed (I could be wrong but so could you). You might have put a 'why is' but your really putting forward a statement of what is currently unknown. Yes there is something. What is a state of nothing and can you prove such a state existed? It's a bit harsh to imply that because I disagree with your view I am not entitled to give input in this discussion (leading questions on unknowns is not very fair) :)

You may ask about causality before the big bang? (big bang must have a cause right?) I gave you something to ponder. It may not be 'Because God' (it's been done to death anyway) but just because it's not a theist explanation shouldn't rule it out and be dismissed.

Your usual 'off topic' or 'discussed elsewhere' argument dismissals don't actually strengthen your argument or make you look intelligent. How about discussing some of the things I raised instead? What do you think about dark matter/dark energy hanging around before a big bang event?

Every topic and debate strays to the side every now and then when new ideas, problems, theories etc are raised. To try and keep such a narrow stranglehold on what can and can't be said stifles debate and nothing is learned and instead of stimulating a good discussion, it just turns into a pointless pissing contest.

Given the nature of subject that gets discussed in this section, no one should come here with cemented pre conceived ideas because frankly no one knows. I am all for adding 'higher powers or conciousness' into a debate but as long as it's done maturely and within the realms of science. If there is a God or such power or conciousness then even it must obey the laws of the universe. We don't know all the laws (far from it) so we can speculate.

Edited by shifter, 24 December 2014 - 04:16 AM.

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#308 shadowhawk

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 10:25 PM

You believe you know why there is something rather than nothing.  I don't think you have followed the discussion so far very closely so I won't repeat what has been said.  The reason I say this is because I have not been the one talking about God here.  The problem is what exists is in need of an explanation.  It can't explain itself.  Therefore the topic.

 

By the way, I must have missed something because i do not believe you do not have a right to input.  I do not believe that.


Edited by shadowhawk, 24 December 2014 - 10:37 PM.

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#309 serp777

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Posted 25 December 2014 - 12:34 AM

You believe you know why there is something rather than nothing.  I don't think you have followed the discussion so far very closely so I won't repeat what has been said.  The reason I say this is because I have not been the one talking about God here.  The problem is what exists is in need of an explanation.  It can't explain itself.  Therefore the topic.

 

By the way, I must have missed something because i do not believe you do not have a right to input.  I do not believe that.

Man this is such a typical and predictable response-- this is why you probably have one of the worst reps on the forum. The kind of argument above is an intellectual cop out--it fails to address most of the points he made and saying that you won't repeat the argument is simply giving up. 

 

YOU also believe you have an explanation to why there is something rather than nothing, ironically enough. Even though you have mentioned God multiple times, anyone else who mentions it or responds to you is off topic. Let me cite where you talk about God:

 

Haha I'll go and quote where you talk about God since you're a liar. 

 

For instance you talk about atheists which obviously brings in theism because you bring in atheism

 

Quote

" I know why an atheist needs something physical to be there and call it nothing.  Why do you need to redefine nothing as something physical?

Nothing produces nothing but it has to for an atheist. "

 

Quote

When  you ask the question where did your God come from you are asking a physical question. Anything of a physical nature is caused, or begins to exist.  It comes from someplace.  Space. time energy ect. are all contingent on something else.  God did not arise or begin.

 

^Here you directly mention God. It's really sad that I need to go back and quote your blatant lies. 

 

And lets not forget your strawman fairy tale which makes references to God numerous times. I can't even believe you keep saying that you don't talk about God when its so obvious to all the readers and anyone who has even the most basic memory. Liar, Liar, pants of fire. 


Edited by serp777, 25 December 2014 - 01:17 AM.

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#310 shadowhawk

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Posted 25 December 2014 - 01:28 AM

And you forgot to quote other things where I said the question was not about God but something physical.  I guess I am lucky you are not the dictator.  I have much better things to do right now.  :)



#311 serp777

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Posted 25 December 2014 - 04:05 AM

And you forgot to quote other things where I said the question was not about God but something physical.  I guess I am lucky you are not the dictator.  I have much better things to do right now.  :)

No you don't. You spent hundreds of hours on the Christianity thread. Also pointing out your own hypocrisy doesn't void the fact that you still made posts about God. You're the one who initially brought up atheism. Go figure. Again this is why your rep here is so bad


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#312 shadowhawk

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 08:27 PM

Merry Christmas.  This topic is about why there is something rather than nothing.  It is a question about the nature of physical things and why they exist.  There are things about the pphysical world that suggest an answer.  Happy New Year.  :)



#313 The Brain

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 01:00 AM

Attached File  image.jpg   118.22KB   0 downloads

Edited by The Brain, 27 December 2014 - 01:02 AM.

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#314 shadowhawk

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 01:35 AM

Always on topic!  Always some bigotry.  :laugh:



#315 shadowhawk

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 01:43 AM

A good debate on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#316 serp777

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 07:52 AM

A good debate on the subject.

 

 

It was a good debate, but personally i felt the moderator was too intrusive. She was terrible and kept interrupting. Craig was mostly crushed by Lawrence here; Craig was out of his depth, particularly in regard to the physics and the fine tuning argument. He just didn't have a thorough understanding of the physics and thus Krauss dominated the arguments. He keeps arguing its fine tuned even though clearly the universe can be fine tuned better and that he doesn't know the phase space of the fine tuning that would allow for better or worse human life. 

 

However I didn't really like Krauss' definition of nothing--I would rather Krauss just argue that there's no such thing as nothing and that its just a philosophical imagining. But Craig made some bad arguments about nothing and some assumptions--he never contended with an eternal universe or multiverse as a possible explanation--in this case nothing was never an option instead of something. He said that Leibnitz's argument doesn't presuppose anything about eternity and therefore he asks why would there be a multiverse instead of nothing. But this doesn't exclude the fact that the multiverse can be apart of a larger ensemble, ad infinitum. Maybe were the result of the infinite turning into nothing--it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other and is an inherent false dilemma. Or it could be that nothing is just an invention of humans trying to apply meaning to their existence, and this question is not sensible in the scope of the universe. Humans evolved to develop a system of quantification, and out of that system came the invention of nothing--or 0 things. Humans come up with wrong assumptions and thoughts all the time though. 


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#317 shadowhawk

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:46 AM

serp777: It was a good debate, but personally i felt the moderator was too intrusive. She was terrible and kept interrupting. Craig was mostly crushed by Lawrence here; Craig was out of his depth, particularly in regard to the physics and the fine tuning argument. He just didn't have a thorough understanding of the physics and thus Krauss dominated the arguments. He keeps arguing its fine tuned even though clearly the universe can be fine tuned better and that he doesn't know the phase space of the fine tuning that would allow for better or worse human life.


I felt The moderator was caught in a hard place because of Krauss and his interruptions.  She was forced to repeatedly try to stop his boorish attempts to interrupt.  I guess that means Krauss won for some as is claimed here.  There is another perspective from the debate itself.  Evidence




 
 

 

However I didn't really like Krauss' definition of nothing--I would rather Krauss just argue that there's no such thing as nothing and that its just a philosophical imagining. But Craig made some bad arguments about nothing and some assumptions--he never contended with an eternal universe or multiverse as a possible explanation--in this case nothing was never an option instead of something. He said that Leibnitz's argument doesn't presuppose anything about eternity and therefore he asks why would there be a multiverse instead of nothing. But this doesn't exclude the fact that the multiverse can be apart of a larger ensemble, ad infinitum. Maybe were the result of the infinite turning into nothing--it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other and is an inherent false dilemma. Or it could be that nothing is just an invention of humans trying to apply meaning to their existence, and this question is not sensible in the scope of the universe. Humans evolved to develop a system of quantification, and out of that system came the invention of nothing--or 0 things. Humans come up with wrong assumptions and thoughts all the time though.

Yes Krauss did define something as nothing. :)  The multiverse does not answer our topic even if it exists.  But let’s go to the BGV Thorium since the claim is here made that Craig does not understand physics.  What a joke!!!!










 


Edited by shadowhawk, 30 December 2014 - 12:54 AM.


#318 serp777

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 11:42 AM

 

serp777: It was a good debate, but personally i felt the moderator was too intrusive. She was terrible and kept interrupting. Craig was mostly crushed by Lawrence here; Craig was out of his depth, particularly in regard to the physics and the fine tuning argument. He just didn't have a thorough understanding of the physics and thus Krauss dominated the arguments. He keeps arguing its fine tuned even though clearly the universe can be fine tuned better and that he doesn't know the phase space of the fine tuning that would allow for better or worse human life.


I felt The moderator was caught in a hard place because of Krauss and his interruptions.  She was forced to repeatedly try to stop his boorish attempts to interrupt.  I guess that means Krauss won for some as is claimed here.  There is another perspective from the debate itself.  Evidence




 
 

 

However I didn't really like Krauss' definition of nothing--I would rather Krauss just argue that there's no such thing as nothing and that its just a philosophical imagining. But Craig made some bad arguments about nothing and some assumptions--he never contended with an eternal universe or multiverse as a possible explanation--in this case nothing was never an option instead of something. He said that Leibnitz's argument doesn't presuppose anything about eternity and therefore he asks why would there be a multiverse instead of nothing. But this doesn't exclude the fact that the multiverse can be apart of a larger ensemble, ad infinitum. Maybe were the result of the infinite turning into nothing--it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other and is an inherent false dilemma. Or it could be that nothing is just an invention of humans trying to apply meaning to their existence, and this question is not sensible in the scope of the universe. Humans evolved to develop a system of quantification, and out of that system came the invention of nothing--or 0 things. Humans come up with wrong assumptions and thoughts all the time though.

Yes Krauss did define something as nothing. :)  The multiverse does not answer our topic even if it exists.  But let’s go to the BGV Thorium since the claim is here made that Craig does not understand physics.  What a joke!!!!










 

 

Evidence what? What do you mean by just saying "Evidence"

 

Also how did Krauss fail to explain the BGV theorem? And craig doesn't understand physics nearly as well as Krauss, as he admits he is far less knowledgeable than krauss in that area, because he isn't a physicist; he's a theologian/ philosopher. He literally admits that, which is why he needs to cite other physicists that he alleges supports his position. Krauss on the other hand has written numerous papers, studied physics his entire life, and is at the forefront of quantum theory. Generally you need a physics degree to understand physics. I doubt craig has taken more than a couple elementary physics classes. 

 

Krauss did interrupt a little bit but it wasn't  that significant. I would rather the moderator just let craig and lawrence talk when they're really going at it. During the climax of the arguments she tends to switch to a different topic which I really disliked. She didn't even stop the small amount of interrupting when it did occur. 



#319 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 11:39 PM

The Best Current Scientific Evidence for God  The BGV thrum 

Alan Guth, William Lane Craig, Alexander Vilenkin, and Sean Carroll on the Origin of the Universe

http://www.encounter1.org/11-2/


 



#320 brianjakub

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:25 AM

The Need for a Theory of Reality

    The Big Bang Theory, and The Theory of Darwinian Evolution are unable to provide a complete and logical explanation of where we came from, or how we got here.  String Theory doesn’t unify Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity with quantum mechanics.  Scientists don’t even know why gravity exists, or what holds an atom together.  They can measure these things but have no explanation why the measurements are what they are.  To solve the problems they need to be approached with an alternative, unifying theory.   So, after all these years of modern science why are there so many unanswered questions when trying to unify quantum mechanics and gravity, and why can’t we envision or imagine a physical representation of where the forces of nature originate?  I believe it’s because, science refuses to ask all the pertinent questions, and refuses to make certain assumptions that are necessary to hypothesizing theories that can answer all these questions.

    There are some pertinent questions, that I think must at least be asked and assumptions made before any hypothesis can be developed that can unify physics:

 

1.      Did all the order we observe in the universe happen by chance, or is there a designer acting behind the scenes?

2.      Is a workable theory possible without a designer?

3.      Does having a theory without a designer automatically discount the need of a theory with one?

4.      Does introducing a designer open the door for new assumptions and possibly better answers?

5.      If the answer to 4 is yes, then do we need to develop new scientific methods in hypothesizing and testing them?

6.      Is there any danger in asking these questions, and if so, what are they?

7.      How can we mitigate those dangers, or should we?

8.      If it appears there could be a designer, should we exclude whoever or whatever it is, from a possible theory, because of these proposed dangers?

 

    I think the mainstream scientific community has already answered question 8 for all of us by deciding what are acceptable theories regardless of the facts or public opinion as stated in Wikipedia quote: 

 

http://en.wikipedia....elligent_design

Reaction from the scientific community[edit]

The unequivocal consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science and has no place in a science curriculum.[5] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that "creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science."[94] The U.S. National Science Teachers Association and the American Association for the Advancement of Science have termed it pseudoscience.[70] Others in the scientific community have denounced its tactics, accusing the ID movement of manufacturing false attacks against evolution, of engaging in misinformation and misrepresentation about science, and marginalizing those who teach it.[95] More recently, in September 2012, Bill Nye warned that creationist views threaten science education and innovations in the United States.[96][97]

Polls[edit]

Several surveys were conducted prior to the December 2005 decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover School District, which sought to determine the level of support for intelligent design among certain groups. According to a 2005 Harris poll, 10% of adults in the United States viewed human beings as "so complex that they required a powerful force or intelligent being to help create them."[103] Although Zogby polls commissioned by the Discovery Institute show more support, these polls suffer from considerable flaws, such as having a very low response rate (248 out of 16,000), being conducted on behalf of an organization with an expressed interest in the outcome of the poll, and containing leading questions.[104][105][106]

A series of Gallup polls in the United States from 1982 through 2008 on "Evolution, Creationism, Intelligent Design" found support for "human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced formed of life, but God guided the process" of between 35% and 40%, support for "God created human beings in pretty much their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so" varied from 43% to 47%, and support for "human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in the process" varied from 9% to 14%. The polls also noted answers to a series of more detailed questions.[107]

 God of the gaps[edit]

Intelligent design has also been characterized as a God-of-the-gaps argument,[138] which has the following form:

 

There is a gap in scientific knowledge.

The gap is filled with acts of God (or intelligent designer) and therefore proves the existence of God (or intelligent designer).[138]

A God-of-the-gaps argument is the theological version of an argument from ignorance. A key feature of this type of argument is that it merely answers outstanding questions with explanations (often supernatural) that are unverifiable and ultimately themselves subject to unanswerable questions.[139] Historians of science observe that the astronomy of the earliest civilizations, although astonishing and incorporating mathematical constructions far in excess of any practical value, proved to be misdirected and of little importance to the development of science because they failed to inquire more carefully into the mechanisms that drove the heavenly bodies across the sky.[140] It was the Greek civilization that first practiced science, although not yet a mathematically oriented experimental science, but nevertheless an attempt to rationalize the world of natural experience without recourse to divine intervention.[141] In this historically motivated definition of science any appeal to an intelligent creator is explicitly excluded for the paralysing effect it may have on the scientific progress.

http://en.wikipedia....elligent_design, end quote

 

     Even though the general population isn’t highly educated on possible intelligent design theories, mainstream science’s refusal to accept them as a possibility hardly qualifies them as experts either.  What attempt has been made at developing testable scientific methods, if any?   When the scientific community refuses to ask all possible questions about how the universe came into existence,( created by intelligence or spontaneously popping into existence), solving fundamental problems will appear nearly insurmountable.  Consider the following argument.

    A researcher decides to reconstruct the development of modern breeds of dogs from the earliest known breeds from the written records and other historical and fossil records and write a scientific explanation on how to selectively breed dogs, and some of the pros and cons.  After researching back a couple branches of breed development he realizes that men and their decisions played a pivotal role in developing the different modern breeds.  This leads him to ask the following question, “What does a man have to physically do to selectively breed dogs?”

    With a little research he finds written records and physical evidence of the different breeds and gets the following answer, “Some man had to use his intelligence to select and sort animals into separate pens and record the process so that specific breeds could be developed.”

    This led him to the following questions, “What happens to the atoms in a man’s mind so that intelligent decisions can be made, and actions be planned and remembered.  And then, how are those plans enacted through muscular movements in his arms, and legs, and controlled through sensory interpretation of eyesight and balance?”

    With a little research he finds out certain parts of the brain control certain functions and thoughts, which leads him to ask the following question, “How does an “idea” for selective breeding which has an abstract unverifiable origin, arrange the atoms in a man’s mind, that sets up circuits that sends signals to control memory, muscles and sensory organs, which turn something as abstract as an idea, into a physically measurable and verifiable action that selectively breeds dogs?”  He realizes that the origin of the idea causes the movement of the atoms in the brain, but he can’t verify through scientific measurement how or why something as abstract as a thought or idea actually moves physical matter.

    He realizes the origin of ideas aren’t scientifically verifiable.  For example, he realizes that an idea like “move a finger” changes the atoms in the brain to set up the circuits to move the finger, but even if he could see how the atoms moved, he could never measure how the “idea” caused the atom movement. Movement requires changes in force, and how does a nonphysical abstract thing like an idea cause the force that is required for a physical cause, like move brain atoms, to happen.

    That leads him to the following conclusion.  Ideas and how they move atoms are not able to be measured or verified in natural ways, and therefore are supernatural in nature. Since, all scientific theories must have natural origins without supernatural causes, the supernatural origin of the idea of selective dog breeding, is not scientifically viable as a theory for the origin of the different dog breeds. Besides, most of the people that recorded the records are dead and can’t be physically presented today to verify that they actually selected, moved, and penned the dogs, or if some other natural means of selection occurred instead. 

    So, he tried sorting and penning dogs to see if he could redevelop some of the breeds and substantiate his theory that way.  He wasn’t a very good dog handler and failed.  Besides, he couldn’t come up with a scientific explanation of how he developed his own thoughts, or how his thoughts and ideas translated into his body movement, so he decided it was best that he develop a new theory.

     Therefore, he hypothesized dog breeds were developed through some not yet fully understood mechanism that might have involved an intelligent decision that he couldn’t replicate.  Even though it appeared that intelligent decisions carefully selected the dogs that have certain characteristics seemed to originate from human bodies that are part of nature, he couldn’t explain the origin of the ideas or how the ideas translated into physical movement in the human mind and body.  Since he couldn’t explain the origin of human thought and intelligence, he decided that what appears as intelligence must just be luck, or random actions.  Since, he can’t come up with a natural origin for human creativity, there must be another explanation to explain this implied creativity.  So he theorizes, there must be enough disorder somewhere else in the universe to offset the implied order apparent in dog breeding thus, he came up with a theory which avoided the need for intelligence to guide the selection of dogs in developing breeds and called it natural selection.

    The interesting thing about this story is that all the information needed for the different dog breeds already was in the DNA of the original dog breed and was selectively used. We accept as fact, that through unexplainable intelligent thought, that unexplainably moves brain atoms, man established the different dog breeds.  We also accept the fact that through the same unexplainable maneuvering of brain matter, man through hundreds of years of trial and error, developed flight in fighter jets.  But, we won’t give credit to some intelligent being that through similar intelligent thoughts moving atoms, quarks, and matter in similar ways that our thoughts move the quarks of our brains, developed atoms, which he organized into molecules, which he organized into an eagle that could fly circles around a jet plane. 

    I think the question of, “How this intelligent designer ordered the particles of matter, dark energy, and dark matter into the observable structures and living organisms we observe today?” should be asked, and theories hypothesized.  I think it is illogical not to do so.  Also, I think it is as dangerous of a proposition to decide that there isn’t a purpose for the creation, as it is to decide that Henry Ford didn’t have a purpose for the automobile.  Otherwise a good use for the automobile could be to reduce world hunger through population control, by deaths from car accidents and smog, instead of transporting food and people.   

     Since, all creative thought whether human or Divine could be considered supernatural, I think using supernatural origin of the cause, does not discount the validity of a theory, otherwise by the example above, all science is in danger.  Therefore, I propose that an intelligent designer, created the universe for a specific purpose, governed by a set of physical laws that intuitively arise out of the structure of space and matter.   We observe the effects of these physical laws, and explain them, by quantum mechanics, and the theories of relativity among others


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#321 shadowhawk

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 09:55 PM

Very interesting post above.  What do you think could be the source of abstract objects?



#322 brianjakub

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:16 AM

  Four things must be present for an idea make things happen in the universe.

 

1.      Must have an Intellect with an idea.

2.      Must have a code writer and a transmitter, which can convert something abstract like an idea into a code or language, which can be transmitted as a signal.

3.      Must have a tuner to modulate the signal so it is clearly transmitted (especially if it is transmitted in multiple frequencies and codes).

4.      Must have an antennae receiver to receive the signal, with a demodulator to decipher the frequency and code, so it can be properly stored in spheres, or some other rotating shape so that the idea can be observed for some length of time.

 

I think these are the logical requirements that establish the basis for the natural law, which along with the laws of physics allow us to understand the universe.  Because of the immense size and detail of the universe I think it could be logical to assume the Intellect must have immense if not infinite ability.  I think it would also be logical to assume that this intellect would reveal Himself to anything or anyone, which would include humans, who would question nature's origin and its purpose. 

    I think that the four things needed for an idea to be put into words to make things happen in the universe, are logically presented in the Nature of the Christian God and His creation.

 

1.      An idea comes from God the Father.

2.      Jesus the Living Word, writes the code and transmits the idea in specific frequencies.

3.      The Holy Spirit modulates, or tunes the signal so the final result stored in nature is the same as the original idea.

4.      The natural universe receives, and stores the code as it is then decoded by the Living Word (Jesus) in the atoms of creation according to the idea developed by God (The Father), and guided by the modulator (The Holy Spirit), which then can be observed by us over time.



#323 The Brain

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:42 AM

Oh dear god....

#324 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:51 AM

I of course agree with you.  There is a topic  on codes earlier in this section.  I was thinking a bit differently when I asked about abstract objects but this is great.  :) 



#325 brianjakub

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:53 AM

Do you have a better idea



#326 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 03:01 AM

Oh dear god....

 

Hay, you are religious. So do you think God is involved? How about relating to what has been said.
 



#327 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 03:06 AM

Do you have a better idea

I  think you are very clear.  I loved your bringing the human mind (intelligence) into the development of the dog.  No mind, no dog!



#328 The Brain

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 03:10 AM


Oh dear god....


Hay, you are religious. So do you think God is involved? How about relating to what has been said.

I don't relate to nonsense

#329 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 03:18 AM

 

 

Oh dear god....


Hay, you are religious. So do you think God is involved? How about relating to what has been said.

I don't relate to nonsense

 

 

Obviously.  :)  Have a nice day.
 



#330 brianjakub

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 04:22 AM

 

 

Oh dear god....


Hay, you are religious. So do you think God is involved? How about relating to what has been said.

I don't relate to nonsense

 

Do you have a more logical explanation besides stating there is enough disorder in the non-observable universe to allow for all the order we observe here to happen by chance.  That's the only one I've heard so far, and even that one is statistically impossible.  That's nonsense, not logic.  I don't think it's nonsense to say complex order requires intelligence.  Please, myself and a lot of people smarter than me want to learn.  Why not stop the labeling and name calling and explain why my idea is nonsense or provide an alternative idea.    


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