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Why is there SOMETHING rather than NOTHING?

mystery secret riddle

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#61 shadowhawk

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:24 AM

 

 

 

So "nothing" does not mean nothing anymore.  Just redefine it.  That has been done before.

 

This has indeed been done before and you're now as you were then. Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you really incapable of grasping these ideas? I realise that they undermine your beliefs but surely you can't hide forever behind a wall of derision and misconstruction.

 

Nothing but your typical name calling but I see you also have NO EVIDENCE.  You did this before?  Yes many, many times. and I have noted it.
 

Why can't you let other  people have an interesting discussion without making every topic about you?  You have no evidence to support your insistence that time exists. You are simply refusing to apply rational thought to the question. To say that time exists because clocks measure just proves that you have ignored all the points made so far about what is really being measured. Instead of demanding evidence try addressing these points. I'm not going to quote them all for you; it's easy to read back over this fairly short discussion and as a master of logic you are presumably competent to pick out the important points from the general background. If you can't do that then why not just leave the rest of us in peace?

 

You call people a bunch if names and then call it a discussion ?  You were quoting me.  :)

 


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#62 johnross47

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:28 AM

 

Time is certainly a very complex topic in physics, but there is no real doubt among physicists that time does really, truly exist ... they're just divided a bit on what causes this existence.”

Time is caused.
http://physics.about...estimeexist.htm



Let's all say time is caused.

So what?

It's not like that is an argument against infinite regress. There is no contradiction in the generic structure of an infinite regress.

BUT

Let's all say infinite regress is impossible.

So what?

It's not like that is an argument against a natural cause.

 

 

Can we consider time to be a relationship? It clearly isn't a thing, just as,"nothing,"isn't a thing but a state of affairs. That is, I'm proposing that the disputes over whether or not time exists are mainly linguistic. Time is a useful convention describing the sequential nature of change/movement; it allows us to quantify and compare movements. Time in this sense is certainly contingent and can't be used as an argument for anything like gods or creation. I think it's in this sense that physicist say that time emerged from the moment of creation. It also rules out the idea of any creative force being outside time since any act of creation must involve change; time would begin at the beginning of the creative event. If there were changes occurring in the vacuum before the changes that gave rise to our universe, that would probably involve time in this sense as well.



#63 Duchykins

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:04 PM

The disconnect we have is that theists who are desperate to have solid logical proof nearly always rely on A-theory of time, which is the 'old' theory of time that is based on human intuitive reasoning. That theory has been rejected by the bulk of the scientific communities, who prefer B-theory of time which better reflects observation in quantum mechanics. You'll find some philosophers trying to use A-theory and when you do see it it's nearly always in religious contexts, the 'philosophers' usually turn out to be theologians.

SH will probably come back and post some garbage from William Lane Craig, but you can disregard it. WLC's arguments about time are untenable which is why he uses them to appeal to laypeople rather than physicists. Nobody of note in the physics community takes him seriously.

I know of no argument for the existence of god that relies on B-theory of time. If one exists I have yet to see it.

Since B-theory of time more accurately reflects reality on the quantum level, philosophy has an extremely difficult time with it. People have a very hard time conceptualizing B-theory, just like deep time and the size of the universe. This makes sense when you consider the clusterfuck that is quantum mechanics, which philosophy also has trouble with. Theologians tends to try to prove B-theory wrong because its existence is a threat to most of the stagnant classical arguments for god (such as cosmological arguments).

But A-theory is easier for everyone to grasp, that's why it's more popular with the religious.

This is just another example of why intuitive reasoning is not reliable.

Edited by Duchykins, 29 July 2014 - 02:25 PM.


#64 Duchykins

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:19 PM

http://plato.stanfor...u/entries/time/

#65 shadowhawk

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:54 AM

Time:
We have discussed the issue of time before at length.  I hold to an A. Theory whereby time is real.  There are genuine properties of time such as being two days past, being present, etc. that are not created by us.   Times and events are constantly changing with respect to their A properties (first becoming less and less future, then becoming present, and subsequently becoming more and more past). According to The A Theory, the passage of time is a very real and inexorable feature of the world, and not merely some mind-dependent phenomenon.  On top of that minds change and different minds perceive the same time change.  Yesterday is still yesterday, no matter which mind looks at it.  Therefore time is not mind dependent but exists as a non material phenomena.  

We live in a tensed reality and could not function without tense.  Movement and change require it.  I was over there (past), am here now (present) and will be there. (Future) That is the world we exist and have our being in.  The verbal tenses of ordinary language (expressions like ‘it is the case that’, ‘it was the case that’, and ‘it will be the case that’) must be taken as primitive and basic reality.

A theorists argue that no time ever possesses all of the different A properties. Thus, according to the A Theorist, there is no contradiction in the A series — i.e., no contradiction in saying of a time, that time was future, is present, and will be past — and, hence, no contradiction to be passed along to the different times at which time was future, is present, and will be past.  This of course impacts the Kalam  argument.


Edited by shadowhawk, 30 July 2014 - 03:58 AM.


#66 Duchykins

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:14 AM

From the Stanford Encyclopedia




The A Theorist is normally happy to concede McTaggart's claim that there can be no time without an A series, but the typical A Theorist will want to reject the part of McTaggart's argument that says that the A series is inherently contradictory. For the typical A Theorist will deny McTaggart's claim that each time in the A series must possess all of the different A properties. That is, she will deny that it is true of any time, t, that t is past, present, and future. Instead, she will insist, the closest thing to this that can be true of a time, t, is (for example) that t was future, is present, and will be past, where the verbal tenses of the verb ‘to be’ in this claim are not to be analyzed away (just as the apparent references to the putative A properties pastness, presentness, and futurity are not to be analyzed away in favor of reference to B relations).

Thus the standard A Theorist's response to McTaggart's argument involves the notion that we must “take tense seriously,” in the sense that there is a fundamental distinction between (for example) saying that x is F and saying that x was F. The thesis can be put this way.

Taking Tense Seriously: The verbal tenses of ordinary language (expressions like ‘it is the case that’, ‘it was the case that’, and ‘it will be the case that’) must be taken as primitive and unanalyzable.[3]

In virtue of her commitment to Taking Tense Seriously, the A Theorist will say that no time ever possesses all of the different A properties. Thus, according to the A Theorist, there is no contradiction in the A series — i.e., no contradiction in saying of a time, t, that t was future, is present, and will be past — and, hence, no contradiction to be passed along to the different times at which t was future, is present, and will be past.

In effect, then, the typical A Theorist makes exactly the move in response to McTaggart's argument that McTaggart anticipated, and explicitly rejected. Not surprisingly, then, many supporters of McTaggart's argument feel that the A Theorist's response fails.

Although some B Theorists deny that time really passes as a result of considering McTaggart's argument, many B Theorists have different reasons for saying that time doesn't really pass. Two other arguments against The A Theory (besides McTaggart's argument, that is) have been especially influential. The first of these is an argument from the special theory of relativity in physics. According to that theory (the argument goes), there is no such thing as absolute simultaneity. But if there is no such thing as absolute simultaneity, then there cannot be objective facts of the form “t is present” or “t is 12 seconds past”. Thus, according to this line of argument, there cannot be objective facts about A properties, and so the passage of time cannot be an objective feature of the world.

It looks as if the A Theorist must choose between two possible responses to the argument from relativity: (1) deny the theory of relativity, or (2) deny that the theory of relativity actually entails that there can be no such thing as absolute simultaneity. Option (1) has had its proponents (including Arthur Prior), but in general has not proven to be widely popular. This may be on account of the enormous respect philosophers typically have for leading theories in the empirical sciences. Option (2) seems like a promising approach for A Theorists, but A Theorists who opt for this line are faced with the task of giving some account of just what the theory of relativity does entail with respect to absolute simultaneity. (Perhaps it can be plausibly argued that while relativity entails that it is physically impossible to observe whether two events are absolutely simultaneous, the theory nevertheless has no bearing on whether there is such a phenomenon as absolute simultaneity.)

The second of the two other influential arguments against The A Theory concerns the rate of the alleged passage of time. According to this argument, if it is true to say that time really passes, then it makes sense to ask how fast time passes. But (the argument goes) if it makes sense to ask how fast time passes, then it is possible for there to be a coherent answer to that question. Yet, according to the argument, there is no rate that can be coherently assigned to the passage of time. (“One hour per hour,” for example, is said not to be a coherent answer to the question “How fast does time pass?”) Thus, the argument concludes, it cannot be true to say that time really passes.

Edited by Duchykins, 30 July 2014 - 05:16 AM.

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#67 DukeNukem

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:17 PM

Plus, there's no sign of any tangible manifestation of time, such as time particle, time wave (like a gravity wave), or field.

 

Plus, one of the strongest common sense arguments against time is this:  We live in a universe that so far suggests that if something is possible, it's in fact inevitable.  Therefore, if time existed, traveling through time would seem to be possible.  Yet there's no indication that time travel works outside of science fiction and fantasy stories.  Where are time travelers from our future?  You would think that if time travel worked, literally millions of civilizations from our distance future would be traveling back to our present and past to escape an energy depleted future (when the universe is dying out trillions of years from now), and enjoy the vast energy richness of our current and past young universe.


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#68 shadowhawk

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:34 PM

From the Stanford Encyclopedia
The A Theorist is normally happy to concede McTaggart's claim that there can be no time without an A series, but the typical A Theorist will want to reject the part of McTaggart's argument that says that the A series is inherently contradictory. For the typical A Theorist will deny McTaggart's claim that each time in the A series must possess all of the different A properties. That is, she will deny that it is true of any time, t, that t is past, present, and future. Instead, she will insist, the closest thing to this that can be true of a time, t, is (for example) that t was future, is present, and will be past, where the verbal tenses of the verb ‘to be’ in this claim are not to be analyzed away (just as the apparent references to the putative A properties pastness, presentness, and futurity are not to be analyzed away in favor of reference to B relations).

Thus the standard A Theorist's response to McTaggart's argument involves the notion that we must “take tense seriously,” in the sense that there is a fundamental distinction between (for example) saying that x is F and saying that x was F. The thesis can be put this way.

Taking Tense Seriously: The verbal tenses of ordinary language (expressions like ‘it is the case that’, ‘it was the case that’, and ‘it will be the case that’) must be taken as primitive and unanalyzable.[3]

In virtue of her commitment to Taking Tense Seriously, the A Theorist will say that no time ever possesses all of the different A properties. Thus, according to the A Theorist, there is no contradiction in the A series — i.e., no contradiction in saying of a time, t, that t was future, is present, and will be past — and, hence, no contradiction to be passed along to the different times at which t was future, is present, and will be past.

In effect, then, the typical A Theorist makes exactly the move in response to McTaggart's argument that McTaggart anticipated, and explicitly rejected. Not surprisingly, then, many supporters of McTaggart's argument feel that the A Theorist's response fails.

Although some B Theorists deny that time really passes as a result of considering McTaggart's argument, many B Theorists have different reasons for saying that time doesn't really pass. Two other arguments against The A Theory (besides McTaggart's argument, that is) have been especially influential. The first of these is an argument from the special theory of relativity in physics. According to that theory (the argument goes), there is no such thing as absolute simultaneity. But if there is no such thing as absolute simultaneity, then there cannot be objective facts of the form “t is present” or “t is 12 seconds past”. Thus, according to this line of argument, there cannot be objective facts about A properties, and so the passage of time cannot be an objective feature of the world.

It looks as if the A Theorist must choose between two possible responses to the argument from relativity: (1) deny the theory of relativity, or (2) deny that the theory of relativity actually entails that there can be no such thing as absolute simultaneity. Option (1) has had its proponents (including Arthur Prior), but in general has not proven to be widely popular. This may be on account of the enormous respect philosophers typically have for leading theories in the empirical sciences. Option (2) seems like a promising approach for A Theorists, but A Theorists who opt for this line are faced with the task of giving some account of just what the theory of relativity does entail with respect to absolute simultaneity. (Perhaps it can be plausibly argued that while relativity entails that it is physically impossible to observe whether two events are absolutely simultaneous, the theory nevertheless has no bearing on whether there is such a phenomenon as absolute simultaneity.)

The second of the two other influential arguments against The A Theory concerns the rate of the alleged passage of time. According to this argument, if it is true to say that time really passes, then it makes sense to ask how fast time passes. But (the argument goes) if it makes sense to ask how fast time passes, then it is possible for there to be a coherent answer to that question. Yet, according to the argument, there is no rate that can be coherently assigned to the passage of time. (“One hour per hour,” for example, is said not to be a coherent answer to the question “How fast does time pass?”) Thus, the argument concludes, it cannot be true to say that time really passes.

I deny Taggerts claim that A theory is contradictory for the reasons stated in the article you quoted.  A Theory does not have to possess ALL the properties of A at the same time.  Past, Present and Future are not at the same time.  Nor is the future ahead of the past.  The arrow of time points one way in this reality.  That is the world we live in and try to live in a B theory of time will produce chaos.  In fact you don’t live in a B theory of time or you would go mad.

As for the speed of time it is relative to mass and what is being measured.  For example I am sitting st my computer.  How fast am I going in an hour?  Well, relative to my computer, very slow but the earth is turning fairly fast.  How fast am I now going?  It is also orbiting the Sun.  How fast?  The Galaxy is turning.  How fast?  The Cosmos is expanding.  How fast?  How fast per hour am I going siting at my computer when you add all these together?  There is no time the B Theorist claims?  So how fast does time travel?  Relative to what and measured by what?  The question does not defeat the reality of time.  What is our Clock?  The speed of light.  Light is a wave or particle, it is moving and it exists.  There is a past, present and future to light which is our clock and it is so real we can measure time by it.  B Theory does not defeat the KALAM.
 


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#69 Duchykins

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:52 PM

Your answer demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of tye subject matter.

The question was 'how fast does time pass?'

A has a problem with this because it needs time to be objective.


Relativity doesn't support A, it supports B, lol.

You missed the two arguments from relativity that are not McTaggert's.

Not to mention, your analogy is stupid. We don't 'live' on the quantum level, and we would go mad if we tried, but that doesn't mean the quantum level doesn't exist. It only points out limitations in our own perceptions and conceptualizations.
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#70 shadowhawk

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:16 PM

Plus, there's no sign of any tangible manifestation of time, such as time particle, time wave (like a gravity wave), or field.

 

Plus, one of the strongest common sense arguments against time is this:  We live in a universe that so far suggests that if something is possible, it's in fact inevitable.  Therefore, if time existed, traveling through time would seem to be possible.  Yet there's no indication that time travel works outside of science fiction and fantasy stories.  Where are time travelers from our future?  You would think that if time travel worked, literally millions of civilizations from our distance future would be traveling back to our present and past to escape an energy depleted future (when the universe is dying out trillions of years from now), and enjoy the vast energy richness of our current and past young universe.

Everything that exists is not made up of particles or waves like numbers and consciousness.  So...
If something is possible it is inevitable sounds like the Ontological Argument for Gods existence.  Just because you can't violate the arrow of time does not mean it is not real.  You can't go into the past or the future because time is real.  If it wasn't real you could.  There are lots of things you cant do that are real.



#71 Lewis Carroll

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:27 AM

Time:
We have discussed the issue of time before at length.  I hold to an A. Theory whereby time is real.  There are genuine properties of time such as being two days past, being present, etc. that are not created by us.   Times and events are constantly changing with respect to their A properties (first becoming less and less future, then becoming present, and subsequently becoming more and more past). According to The A Theory, the passage of time is a very real and inexorable feature of the world, and not merely some mind-dependent phenomenon.  On top of that minds change and different minds perceive the same time change.  Yesterday is still yesterday, no matter which mind looks at it.  Therefore time is not mind dependent but exists as a non material phenomena

 

 

.  

There are general properties of time? Are you sure that these "general properties" aren't just subjective inclinations? The concept of a day (24 hours) is a human invention which would not exist without human involvement. 

 

I agree that there is change going on constantly; however, I still fail to see how this is proof of the existence of an objective, universal truth (time). 

 

"Yesterday is yesterday" to those who have been indoctrinated with the concept of days and time. To someone who has never been introduced to these created concepts, only change would have occurred. Time is tacked on as a means of convenience. 
 


We live in a tensed reality and could not function without tense.  Movement and change require it.  I was over there (past), am here now (present) and will be there. (Future) That is the world we exist and have our being in.  The verbal tenses of ordinary language (expressions like ‘it is the case that’, ‘it was the case that’, and ‘it will be the case that’) must be taken as primitive and basic reality.

 

 


I completely agree. Time is indeed an extremely helpful tool. Humans literally rely on time to function from day-to-day and hour-to-hour. However, if humans ceased to exist, would the concept of time still be applicable or useful? Would the universe still require a "tensed reality" in order to properly function and exist? Are you sure movement (space), change, and entropy require time? Or is that these concepts are easier for our human perception to grasp and understand when we apply the created function of time to them?


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#72 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:39 PM

Are you saying we caused the 13.8 billion years old cosmos?  (give or take a billion years time) That was long before humans.  It is all an illusion?  Yesterday is after tomorrow?


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#73 addx

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:14 AM

Are you saying we caused the 13.8 billion years old cosmos?  (give or take a billion years time) That was long before humans.  It is all an illusion?  Yesterday is after tomorrow?

 

We re saying there is "a perspective" which could see all those 13.8 billions of quark paths and geodesics and whatever(strings?) as a single picture(not a video) and in this perspective it would be obvious that anything that happens is inevitable, every quark path is set, every human decision is subject to that. If you could segregate and isolate completely a part of the universe and observe it, track every quark in it, map every path from pair production to annihilation you could predict for example human thoughts if a human would be included in that part of the universe.

 

Humans are not capable of truly seeing and understanding things from such a perspective but it can be logically understood and pretty much objectively proven.

 

Romantic quasiscientists are trying to incept the concept of souls and free will and noninevitability by exploiting various quantum uncertainty principles and findings, trying to squeeze "human intellect and free choice and so meaning of life" into this uncertainty of quantum events and so make "scientific ground" for what god supposedly gave use "free will". Just they are trying to squeeze God into every spontaneous event that happens and does good for them and devil into every spontaneous event that does bad for them. 


Edited by addx, 01 August 2014 - 09:15 AM.

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#74 Duchykins

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:10 PM

That reminds me that Earth's 'days' used to be shorter and that in the future our 24-hour template will not be very useful when we have 25-hour days. I wonder is SH has trouble with this?
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#75 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:15 PM

No.


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#76 johnross47

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:49 AM

That reminds me that Earth's 'days' used to be shorter and that in the future our 24-hour template will not be very useful when we have 25-hour days. I wonder is SH has trouble with this?

 

We see problems of a similar sort when religions use a lunar calendar to calculate when festivals etc. occur. Ramadan and Easter wander about all over the calendar. Presumably god didn't realise that the solar calendar was more useful when he handed down the rules.



#77 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 10:43 PM

 

That reminds me that Earth's 'days' used to be shorter and that in the future our 24-hour template will not be very useful when we have 25-hour days. I wonder is SH has trouble with this?

 

We see problems of a similar sort when religions use a lunar calendar to calculate when festivals etc. occur. Ramadan and Easter wander about all over the calendar. Presumably god didn't realise that the solar calendar was more useful when he handed down the rules.

 

Is this why there is something rather than nothing?  Rather than bashing religious people why don't you address the topic?  What is the underlying motive?



#78 Duchykins

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:56 PM

When has it ever been established that "nothing" is a "thing" that can actually exist, or ever has?

#79 johnross47

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 08:08 AM

When has it ever been established that "nothing" is a "thing" that can actually exist, or ever has?

 

That's back to a question asked at the beginning of this topic. Which definition of "nothing" are we using? I'm currently working my way through Lawrence Krauss's "A Universe From Nothing" and he appears quite comfortable with both definitions. I'm not qualified to comment on his science, but it doesn't seem to make much difference from an energy point of view. In the usual regressive way of these questions, it might make more sense to ask, why do pairs of matter and antimatter particles spontaneously pop up all the time and everywhere? And then there might be another question. Or perhaps the answer would be a truly fundamental fact.



#80 addx

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:42 PM

In my opinion, physics still has much to learn.

 

From "afar" I'd say energy is not quantised at all. It's a complete misconception.

 

Energy levels are completely analog. What causes quanta levels to be observed are in fact wave harmonics that only allow a few very exact balances of "interacting" waves to exist for any longer period of time.

 

If all energy is pair produced as matter and antimatter that can again annihilate into "nothing" that means there are harmonics which enable this. It means they are "pulled apart" from nothing and this creates "tension" to pull them back. 

 

Imagine two particles for example orbiting each other. Imagine there is an attractive force(charge) that pulls them together (to annihilate), but if they orbit fast enough, they can match that attractive force via centripetal force.

 

I'm not saying it is exactly so, but I am saying it obviously something along the lines of that.

 

A photons energy can not be increased in any other way unless to increase its frequency. Which makes it more focused as a particle. Meaning an orbit diameter became smaller, frequency greater and this enables the charge to be greater - two forces, centripetal and charge always in balance, it seems intuitive enough. From this relationship come plancks constant. 

 

Elementary particles are elementary because their orbiting/rotating harmonics exactly match so they never annihilate and stay focused (a photon is officially it particle and antiparticle being the true elementary particle that expriences only 2 spatial dimensions) as described so they forever "cycle" instead of annihilating. Separation of positive and negative charge from the same point and creating a distance in essence creates a particle and anti particle. It also creates TIME. Time it takes for them to annihilate each other, to pull themselves back into nothing. Whatever might be said, whatever plethore of various quarks, particles and whatnots scientists ponder about, all we see can be produced ONLY from photons via pair production. 

 

Such phenomena are at the root of the universe.

 

And cause a "fixed" number of stable 3d elementary particles, like electrons and protons. (neutrons are protons with an electron IIRC). More complex harmonics govern atom structure.

 

But its all in fact harmonics of maybe 2 or 3 different forces. I wouldnt even bet money on weak and strong nuclear force being real, I would rather bet it's also caused by attractive/repulsive harmonics within atom nucleus particles intruding into each others orbits. 

 

I'm just spewing random thought really in order to inspire someone to try and see this like that. 


Edited by addx, 03 August 2014 - 12:50 PM.


#81 Duchykins

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 02:51 PM


When has it ever been established that "nothing" is a "thing" that can actually exist, or ever has?


That's back to a question asked at the beginning of this topic. Which definition of "nothing" are we using? I'm currently working my way through Lawrence Krauss's "A Universe From Nothing" and he appears quite comfortable with both definitions. I'm not qualified to comment on his science, but it doesn't seem to make much difference from an energy point of view. In the usual regressive way of these questions, it might make more sense to ask, why do pairs of matter and antimatter particles spontaneously pop up all the time and everywhere? And then there might be another question. Or perhaps the answer would be a truly fundamental fact.

Theists typically don't recognize quantum fields as 'nothing', even if they believe that the universe began with a quantum burp. They go by the philosophical meaning of 'nothing' which is total absence and they expect everyone to take it seriously that something like that ever 'existed' or can 'exist' or must 'exist' if there is no god. Their arguments that nothing comes from nothing are typically used to say that nothing would exist without their god, and this declaration is never substantiated, no logical reason is given for assuming it's impossible for something to exist without their god . This is because their own religious beliefs dictate it, so they must BEGIN with the assumption that ex nihilo or ab nihilo creation cannot occur by any natural means. It's always asserted with an argument from ignorance. There is no reason, logic or science involved in that particular theistic argument.

#82 johnross47

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:49 PM

That is unfortunately true of most theist arguments; they all start off knowing the conclusion they want to reach, and sometimes, (often), make the fatal logical error of including the conclusion in their premises, which doesn't necessarily make the argument illogical or untrue, but it does make it worthless. 

 

I choose to think of nothing, however defined, as a state of affairs, rather than getting hung up on the thing part of the word, But according to Krauss and many other cosmologist, such a state of affairs is inherently unstable, making creation, or collapse to something, inevitable.


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#83 Duchykins

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 08:42 PM

Indeed

#84 johnross47

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:55 AM

Krauss refers also to work by Stephen Hawking and Jim Hartle, looking at the boundary conditions on universes that might begin from nothing

 

" In quantum gravity, universes can, and indeed always will, spontaneously appear from nothing. Such universes need not be empty, but can have matter and radiation in them, as long as the total energy, including the negative energy associated with gravity,  is zero.

 

In order for the closed universes that might be created through such mechanisms to last for longer than infinitesimal times, something like inflation is necessary. As a result, the only long-lived universe one might expect to live in as a result of such a scenario is one that today appears flat, just the universe in which we live appears."

 

 



#85 shadowhawk

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:13 PM

When has it ever been established that "nothing" is a "thing" that can actually exist, or ever has?

 

Good then Theism exists.  I think we are talking about was is why is there a caused world?
 


Edited by shadowhawk, 04 August 2014 - 08:21 PM.


#86 shadowhawk

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:17 PM

 

 

When has it ever been established that "nothing" is a "thing" that can actually exist, or ever has?


That's back to a question asked at the beginning of this topic. Which definition of "nothing" are we using? I'm currently working my way through Lawrence Krauss's "A Universe From Nothing" and he appears quite comfortable with both definitions. I'm not qualified to comment on his science, but it doesn't seem to make much difference from an energy point of view. In the usual regressive way of these questions, it might make more sense to ask, why do pairs of matter and antimatter particles spontaneously pop up all the time and everywhere? And then there might be another question. Or perhaps the answer would be a truly fundamental fact.

Theists typically don't recognize quantum fields as 'nothing', even if they believe that the universe began with a quantum burp. They go by the philosophical meaning of 'nothing' which is total absence and they expect everyone to take it seriously that something like that ever 'existed' or can 'exist' or must 'exist' if there is no god. Their arguments that nothing comes from nothing are typically used to say that nothing would exist without their god, and this declaration is never substantiated, no logical reason is given for assuming it's impossible for something to exist without their god . This is because their own religious beliefs dictate it, so they must BEGIN with the assumption that ex nihilo or ab nihilo creation cannot occur by any natural means. It's always asserted with an argument from ignorance. There is no reason, logic or science involved in that particular theistic argument.

 

Science can't answer that question.



#87 Duchykins

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:03 PM

That doesn't mean religion can.
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#88 shadowhawk

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:09 AM

Theists do not believe the quantum fields are nothing nor do they believe God is nothing.  There is always something outside the physical to fully give it meaning.  Something has always existed but it is not caused, 

 

Science is a process, not a position and its subject is the physical.  It does not investigate the non physical but religion does.Saying that Religion can't is not a scientific statement and I assume you think you  are saying something true.



#89 Duchykins

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:26 AM

Religion does not investigate anything by any definition of the word.

#90 shadowhawk

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:54 AM

Religion does not investigate anything by any definition of the word.

You have made a statement and the burden of proof is yours.  Evidence???   :|o

 

The Word defined.

in·ves·ti·ga·tion
inˌvestiˈgāSHən/
noun
noun: investigation
  1. the action of investigating something or someone; formal or systematic examination or research.
    "he is under investigation for receiving illicit funds"
    synonyms: examination, inquiry, study, inspection, exploration, consideration, analysis, appraisal; More
    probe, review, (background) check, survey
    "we cannot determine the cause of the fire without further investigation"
    • a formal inquiry or systematic study.
      plural noun: investigations
      "an investigation has been launched into the potential impact of the oil spill"

 


Edited by shadowhawk, 05 August 2014 - 02:07 AM.






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