18 replies to this topic

[hallucinogen]

Would you recommend eating healthy fats as a caloric addition to complex carbs and protein while bodybuilding? I just got a can of raw almond butter - is it good enough? and what would be the recommended daily intake (and timing)? -I'm Trying to get my diet figured out to gain lean muscle fast while intensely working out about 5 days a week or more, thinking about doing a smart cardio in the morning too - any suggestions?- Thanx.

[Shepard]

I would definately recommend including healthy fats into your diet. Fish oil, coconut oil, DAG oil (Enova), olive oil if your diet is lacking, etc. You basically just need to see what your diet is lacking and then add in what is needed.

Intake (calorie-wise) is going to be dependent on the rest of your diet and training program.
Personally, I'm not a fan of working out that often, or morning cardio (assuming you mean before breakfast).

[hallucinogen]

How many calories a day would you recommend to be coming from fats, and I believe their intake is best in the morning and before hitting the gym?
Also,
"_ What I like to do is incorporate good carbs with good fats because it slows down digestion and supports healthy insulin output so there is optimal metabolism along with healthy calories and protein to preserve muscle tissue. Let’s face it, muscle preservation is the key to fat burning.
_ After I get the proper amount of protein (1.8-3.0g/kg body weight), I then calculate fats. I am a stickler for High fat intake when gaining lean muscle mass. I set up all my clients on 30% total caloric intake from fats. I mean good fats like avocado, peanuts, almonds, sunflower seeds, peanut butter, almond butter, Flax oil, etc. After I get those calculations, the rest is carbohydrates. My selections of carbohydrates are high in complex carbs and also high in fiber. The meal preparations all contain protein, carbs and fats, but as the day progresses, I reduce starchy carbs and increase high fiber vegetable carbs. This way I am controlling insulin throughout the day and especially at night time, as the body is winding down."

[Shepard]

The only meals I wouldn't include fats in are breakfast and post-workout. I'm not sure of the breakdown of fats in those foods you mentioned, but it seems to be leaning towards Omega-6 for the most part. Personally, I would use fish oil instead of flax, also.

My fat intake is usually around 35%, but I don't eat as much protein as you do.

[jaydfox]

I'd suggest keeping the flax oil. With all that avocado oil, sunflower oil, almond oil, peanut oil, etc., your omega-6 to omega-3 ratio is going to be terrible.

You need omega-3 oils to balance that. And fish oil won't help, because the omega-3's in fish oil aren't the kinds that compete with the omega-6's in all those vegetable oils, so they won't really help balance that part of your metabolism. You really need a good vegetable source of omega-3's, and flax oil is probably the best that nature has to offer.

You can take fish oils too (actually, it's probably a good idea), but I would recommend not getting rid of the flax oil, not while you're eating all those vegetable oils high in omega-6 fats.

[lynx]

I'd suggest keeping the flax oil. With all that avocado oil, sunflower oil, almond oil, peanut oil, etc., your omega-6 to omega-3 ratio is going to be terrible.

You need omega-3 oils to balance that. And fish oil won't help, because the omega-3's in fish oil aren't the kinds that compete with the omega-6's in all those vegetable oils, so they won't really help balance that part of your metabolism. You really need a good vegetable source of omega-3's, and flax oil is probably the best that nature has to offer.

You can take fish oils too (actually, it's probably a good idea), but I would recommend not getting rid of the flax oil, not while you're eating all those vegetable oils high in omega-6 fats.

Sorry, this is just wrong. GLA will antagonize omega-6 metabolism, not ALA, flax has no GLA. Borage and primrose do.

Flax only only converts to metabolically relevant omega 3s EPA/DHA at ~5-15%, consequently ~85% of flax oil is just extra fat calories which float around vulnerable to oxidation without contributing anything other than weight gain.

[jaydfox]

Lynx, do you have a source on the ALA no competing with the omega-6's? I've never heard this. You need to provide a scientific source, or I'm going to have to stick with my recommendation to keep the flax oil.

[lynx]

Your proposition is that ALA will compete with LA for the D-6-D enzyme, leaving less DGLA and thus less AA. However, it is just as likely that exactly the opposite will occur and one is left with worthless ALA and too much AA. However, by taking EPA/DHA you avoid D-6-D saturation, and D-6-D impairment by diseases states or co-factor deficiencies.

EPA/DHA directly displace AA at the cell membrane and are guaranteed to produce less inflammatory prostaglandins, in addition, EPA/DHA are PPAR-alpha agonists.

The bottom line is, if you are going to supplement with fragile, easily oxidized PUFAs, don't mess around--go straight for the money.

[jaydfox]

Like I said, it's a good idea to use fish oil too, but still take the ALA to antagonize production of AA. It doesn't take much, just enough to get the ratio from 50:1 or higher back down to 5:1 or lower.

If someone is getting 30% of calories from fats, and most of those fats are high in LA, then that person is getting an obscene amount of LA, perhaps several hundred calories. Balancing that with ALA is a priority. Even just a couple teaspoons to a tablespoon of flax oil can help, and that's only 80-120 calories we're talking about.

Adding fish oil may help inhibit production of desaturases, but it won't eliminate them. And eliminating essential linoleic acid isn't a good compromise. Adding a small amount of ALA can restore a grossly imbalanced PUFA ratio, while adding few calories, especially for someone admittedly interested in bodybuilding, where adding calories is rarely a problem.

[jaydfox]

By the way, I should point out that while the 85% (up to 95% or more if you A] get too much linoleic acid, B] have insufficient desaturation enzumes, or C] both) of the ALA which doesn't get converted to EPA (and thence to DHA) could potentially get oxidized, this isn't our biggest concern. Oxidation within mitochondria is the type of oxidation we should most be worried about. Oxidation in the bloodstream can be prevented by antioxidant supplements and maintaining healthy insulin levels. To date, very little can be done to prevent oxidation of mitochondrial lipids. In this sense, direct supplementation of DHA may be worse for one's health than ALA ever could hope to be, since DHA is quite a bit more oxidizable than EPA, and either can be used for mitochondrial membranes.

It's all speculation. What isn't speculation is that ALA antogonizes production of arachadonic acid, a known inflammatory agent, especially in people with low desaturase levels (which can be achieved by having good insulin sensitivity and supplementing with fish oil as well). And inflammation is just as implicated in aging as blood oxidation of lipids. The point? Take all of this with a grain of salt. Not literally, because excess sodium is bad for you.

Take fish oil, but not too much. Avoid sources that are intentionally distilled to eliminate EPA (I've seen some that purport to be pure molecularly distilled DHA!); you need that stuff too! And take flax oil. Not a lot. A teaspoon a day is good for most of us. For those getting a large amount of fat from sources like almonds, almond butter, peanuts, peanut butter, avocados, sunflower seeds, etc., you might need two, maybe even three teaspoons a day.

And as Scott Miller has helpfully pointed out, if you can get ground flaxseeds directly, that's even better than the oil. Just make sure you get fresh seeds, store them in a cool, dark place (the fridge?), and eat immediately after grinding to prevent oxidation. A tablespoon of flaxseed very roughly gives you a teaspoon of oil, so 1-3 tablespoons a day is good for most people. The seeds have protein, fiber, minerals, and other healthy nutrients (e.g. lignans).

[lynx]

By the way] get too much linoleic acid, B] have insufficient desaturation enzumes, or C] both) of the ALA which doesn't get converted to EPA (and thence to DHA) could potentially get oxidized, this isn't our biggest concern. Oxidation within mitochondria is the type of oxidation we should most be worried about. Oxidation in the bloodstream can be prevented by antioxidant supplements and maintaining healthy insulin levels. To date, very little can be done to prevent oxidation of mitochondrial lipids. In this sense, direct supplementation of DHA may be worse for one's health than ALA ever could hope to be, since DHA is quite a bit more oxidizable than EPA, and either can be used for mitochondrial membranes.

This is a red herring, high omega 3 fish/oil consumption is healthy. Look at the epidemiological studies. Conversely, epidemiological studies of ALA consumption have found a positive correlation with prostate cancer, whereas DHA/EPA are negatively correlated.

Virtually any membrane fatty acid can be oxidized, and there is also cholesterol in the membrane which is vulnerable to oxidation. If you have saturated fats in the membrane, then signal transduction is impeded, thus slowing down metabolism but also slowing cellular function.

It's all speculation. What isn't speculation is that ALA antogonizes production of arachadonic acid, a known inflammatory agent, especially in people with low desaturase levels (which can be achieved by having good insulin sensitivity and supplementing with fish oil as well). And inflammation is just as implicated in aging as blood oxidation of lipids. The point? Take all of this with a grain of salt. Not literally, because excess sodium is bad for you.

It is speculation that ALA antagonizes AA production. D-6-D appears to have a slight preference for omega 3, but it is mostly a question of exposure. First come first served.

Also, LA is not all bad, it first makes DGLA which produces PGE1, then it can make AA, but not necessarily.

[Infernity]

Isn't it known that body builder should eat protein? eat a lot of the eggs white...
I'd say after a workout you can eat 8 whites and one yellow with some healthy vegetable salad spiced with olive oil.

Good luck.

-Infernity

[Shepard]

Isn't it known that body builder should eat protein? eat a lot of the eggs white...
I'd say after a workout you can eat 8 whites and one yellow with some healthy vegetable salad spiced with olive oil.

Good luck.

-Infernity

The problem with that is that you usually need more carbs and less fat after a workout, depending on your overall diet plan.

[DukeNukem]

Pre- and post-workout all fats should be avoided, as fats/oils slow down digestion, and during the pre- and post-workout window you want rapid digestion. This is why simple sugars plus fast digesting protein, like whey, is the best pre- and post-workout meal, to encourage protein synthesis. Insulin production is highly anabolic, and dampens the stress-induced post-workout catabolic effect (via the release of cortisol).

[Mind]

I have a fairly low body fat percentage, under 10% the last time I was measured, but I still have trouble attaining the "ripped" looked that competitve body builders and some martial arts experts achieve. I was on a program of high carb and high protein to build mass but now I have cut back my carbs and fats by nearly 50% to reduce my body fat by another percent or 2. I also increased my cardio slightly.

I am just wondering if I can keep the healthy fats, as hallucinagen is inquiring and still reduce body fat?

Another thing I am wondering about is that "ripped" look. My wife says that body builders just starve and dehydrate themselves for a couple days before a show and that is why they look so ripped. Is that true?

[lynx]

All professional bodybuilders, except the so called naturals, are using HUGE amounts of steroids and other drugs to achieve that look. In addition to the roids and drugs, they do dehydrate before contests.

However, many natural bodybuilders achieve a very ripped physique through diet and supplements.

Regarding fats--Fish oil is a must for anyone wanting to look ripped, flax is a total waste--in case you didn't read the rest of this thread.

[DukeNukem]

The ripped ab look requires about 8% bodyfat or lower. And yes, before photo shoots or competitions, body builders will dehydrate their body to really accentuate the ripped look. I'm at about 9% bodyfat, and can see my abs, but they're not well defined like a body builder model has. Getting lower bodyfat for me would require more aerobic exercise than is healthy to do.

And as Lynx said, you do not need steroids to get that ripped look, though it does help tremendously.

Fish oil, btw, has a profound benefit to building and MAINTAINING muscle mass. A study I read a year ago or so used well exercised mice, later confined to a very small area that didn't allow them to move. The mice fed fish oil lost considerably less muscle than the ones fed other types of oils. If I were a doctor, I'd use this benefit of fish oil on patients whom needed to be confined to a bed for several days or longer -- it doesn't take long at all for muscle atrophy due to non-use. But, I doubt there's a doctor on Earth who does this.

Edited by dukenukem, 29 July 2005 - 02:14 PM.

[Mind]

Thanks for the tips guys. I am only trying to attain the ripped look for a short period of time. I don't think it is real healthy to try and maintain it for long periods. It is just something I wanted to try, just to say I did it, and then take a couple pictures for posterity.

[lynx]

Fish oil, btw, has a profound benefit to building and MAINTAINING muscle mass.  A study I read a year ago or so used well exercised mice, later confined to a very small area that did allow them to move.  The mice fed fish oil lost considerably less muscle than the ones fed other types of oils.  If I were a doctor, I'd use this benefit of fish oil on patients whom needed to be confined to a bed for several days or longer -- it doesn't take long at all for muscle atrophy due to non-use.  But, I doubt there's a doctor on Earth who does this.

I bet our own ScottL does things like this and more. There are some cool docs out there, you just have to shop. My own Dr. is David Perlmutter, MD. He is wicked smart and up on everything relevant to life extension and enhancement.

We have great talks when I see him. His first book is a great compendium for people here, his second and more popular book is a little too basic for this crowd.