122 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

I dont really like the Idea of cryonics, as someone mentioned, it is the 2nd worst option, but at least better than the worst option.

Some may never be able to pay tons of money to use cryonics, so this cheap option is at least an alternative to not doing anything.

The fact of the matter is that most of us are going to need it and some number of us are going to get it.

 

We better make it available, inexpensive, and efficacious.

[A941]

You are right, but I still hope for something better than the 2nd worst option ;-)

[Danail Bulgaria]

So do I But what about if such an option does not come? You have to have a back-up plan.

[A941]

Yes, cryonics is okay if anything else fails, cause I fear that it is not sure if the continuity of consciousnes is given.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Many of the people think, that the counsciousness is actually the brain. If your brain gets restored, your consciousness will be restored too.

[Antonio2014]

Ok, so after reading Ralph Merkle's plan for affordable cryonics (we can bring the cost of preservation and perpetual storage to below $4k), I thought we needed to start polling people. So please share this poll.

 

What is "local standby"?

[YOLF]

Local standby is the service for having a team of people at your bedside when you die or as we say, deanimate involuntarily. 

 

This team administers a cocktail of drugs to prep for the transition to long term storage. If these services are rendered, the preservation that results is superior to not having it done. Very often, patients are simply packed in dry ice, shipped to the cryoprovider, and straight frozen using a temperature controlled freezer. These patients suffer much more damage than someone who has local standby and their prognosis isn't as good. It could just take longer to reanimate them, or the damage may be too great.

 

At present, Alcor is sending out field cryoprotectant kits to be used locally, it offers a significant cost savings and better prognosis. Traditional local standby would very frequently result in cryonicists arriving on scene for the preservation only to find out that the patient could still be saved by unconventional application of conventional medicine and didn't need us yet. Such cases have been frequent and patients have continued to live for decades in some instances.

[Antonio2014]

Oh, thanks. I'm seriously considering to be cryopreserved in the future.

[chubtoad]

So what would it really require to implement large scale cryonics like this? 

(1) An accurate calculation showing the tradeoff between the number of people per vat and the cost per person.

(2) Accurate polling to estimate how many people would sign up at a given price point.

(3) Binding contracts, whereby everyone promises to pay $X in exchange for cyropreservation if Y people sign up.

(4) A person or institution willing to bear the financial risk of errors in the above estimates.

(5) A trusted cryonics facility probably preexisting (CI or Alcor).

Am I missing anything?  Is there something Longecity can do here?

 

[YOLF]

If Alcor and CI don't do something like this, I'd like to see LongeCity try to make it happen somehow. At $5k or even $8k (IIRC the original cost at Alcor when it formed in 68?), I think it could be paid for in advance. It could even be sold as an investment held in escrow should the fundraising fail.

 

Otherwise, I don't see what else would be necessary, though obviously more complex than the list.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I suppose, that crowd funding will not manage to collect enough money for building a dewar for several million people.

 

Some more classical ways to make it cheaper may appear to be more possible. For example - the do it yourself approach, building a cryonics company in a country with a cheap labour (something like the medical tourism), finding a way for the cryonics to cost the cost of the dewar + the cost of the cryoprotectant.

 

I am not sure, however, if this will manage to fall the cost of the cryonics so dramatically. It should be possible, to make it still affordable by preserving the quality.

[chubtoad]

What is the best way to do polling over the internet (I've heard of Survey Monkey, is that of any use here?)?  We don't even have a guess of how many people would do Cryonics if it was totally free, do we?

[YOLF]

I suppose, that crowd funding will not manage to collect enough money for building a dewar for several million people.

 

Some more classical ways to make it cheaper may appear to be more possible. For example - the do it yourself approach, building a cryonics company in a country with a cheap labour (something like the medical tourism), finding a way for the cryonics to cost the cost of the dewar + the cost of the cryoprotectant.

 

I am not sure, however, if this will manage to fall the cost of the cryonics so dramatically. It should be possible, to make it still affordable by preserving the quality.

At present, local standby and transportation for foreigners can be quite expensive. The red tape would probably eat away at any cost savings and the cost would continue to rise as developing countries grow quickly.

[Antonio2014]

I don't know what is the best, but Survey Monkey is popular. Anyway, I think the biggest issue is not which survey software to use, but how to find and invite people willing to participate in the survey.

[YOLF]

What is the best way to do polling over the internet (I've heard of Survey Monkey, is that of any use here?)?  We don't even have a guess of how many people would do Cryonics if it was totally free, do we?

I like google forms. They are easy and there's nothing extra to sign up for. The data is put directly into an excel spreadsheet that can be accessed in browser. I made this if you'd like to spread it around. If you have any suggestions for questions, I'll add them. 

 

Though if we really want respondents, we'll have to sign up with a service like MySurvey or Carol Adams, and that costs money. I think we can get a grant for it though.

[YOLF]

I don't know what is the best, but Survey Monkey is popular. Anyway, I think the biggest issue is not which survey software to use, but how to find and invite people willing to participate in the survey.

My Survey/Carol Adams lets you define your target survey takers... Though I suppose we could get a sponsor and give coupons or something to respondents via email.

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

I suppose, that crowd funding will not manage to collect enough money for building a dewar for several million people.

 

Some more classical ways to make it cheaper may appear to be more possible. For example - the do it yourself approach, building a cryonics company in a country with a cheap labour (something like the medical tourism), finding a way for the cryonics to cost the cost of the dewar + the cost of the cryoprotectant.

 

I am not sure, however, if this will manage to fall the cost of the cryonics so dramatically. It should be possible, to make it still affordable by preserving the quality.

At present, local standby and transportation for foreigners can be quite expensive. The red tape would probably eat away at any cost savings and the cost would continue to rise as developing countries grow quickly.

 

 

Maybe you are right. However, according to me the concept of building a cryonics company in a country, where will be cheaper worked. The russians made CryoRus and dropped the cost of the cryonics dramatically, only by making such a company in Russia. Ofcourse, you may correct me if I am wrong. Further the cost may drop if volunteers become educated how to do the procedure, and start doing it cheap, or even for free. I think, that there will be found volunteering people, who want to be cryopreserved, and who have university medical education (doctors). If they are not stupid, they will agree to cryopreserve a dozen of people even for free, if they or a mamber of their family also gets cryopreserved for free. Many other things also can be done by volunteers, for example the muscle work for building the building for the cryonics company. Ofcourse you may correct me again wherever you think, that I am talking stupid things
 

[YOLF]

 

 

I suppose, that crowd funding will not manage to collect enough money for building a dewar for several million people.

 

Some more classical ways to make it cheaper may appear to be more possible. For example - the do it yourself approach, building a cryonics company in a country with a cheap labour (something like the medical tourism), finding a way for the cryonics to cost the cost of the dewar + the cost of the cryoprotectant.

 

I am not sure, however, if this will manage to fall the cost of the cryonics so dramatically. It should be possible, to make it still affordable by preserving the quality.

At present, local standby and transportation for foreigners can be quite expensive. The red tape would probably eat away at any cost savings and the cost would continue to rise as developing countries grow quickly.

 

 

Maybe you are right. However, according to me the concept of building a cryonics company in a country, where will be cheaper worked. The russians made CryoRus and dropped the cost of the cryonics dramatically, only by making such a company in Russia. Ofcourse, you may correct me if I am wrong. Further the cost may drop if volunteers become educated how to do the procedure, and start doing it cheap, or even for free. I think, that there will be found volunteering people, who want to be cryopreserved, and who have university medical education (doctors). If they are not stupid, they will agree to cryopreserve a dozen of people even for free, if they or a mamber of their family also gets cryopreserved for free. Many other things also can be done by volunteers, for example the muscle work for building the building for the cryonics company. Ofcourse you may correct me again wherever you think, that I am talking stupid things
 

 

KrioRus didn't drop it that much, they are competitive with the Cryonics Institute plus they offer a  ~$15k option for neuro. If CI would offer a neuro it would be around that price as well.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Yup, but even though for now they offer the cheapest. Are there any valid existing today options for less than 15 000 USD ?

I think, that the cost will drop even further, if they move the cryonics company in other parts of Russia, not that close to Moscow.

Furthermore the cost will fall even more, if a cryonics company i s made in some of the countries that are used for medical tourism, including Bulgaria, where I live.

[YOLF]

There are some options with Oregon Cryonics. They were started only earlier this year though. They are in the same neighborhood as KrioRus.

[Danail Bulgaria]

So they have sniffed the opportunity hehehe

 

How much do they offer?

[Danail Bulgaria]

hm... by "same neighborhood" do you mean in the same geograohical region?

 

Google maps shows them in the USA:

 

https://maps.google....=classic&dg=brw

 

[YOLF]

Oh, sorry, by neighborhood I mean price or ballpark. They are both in the $15k range. Oregon cryonics also offers chemical preservation as well.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Is there a way to see the entire procedure, what hardware and consumatives it takes? I want to try to calculate how much will the cryonics cost, if it is done in my country.

[YOLF]

You would need to contact one of the cryonics companies.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I suppose, that they will not be very glad to give away information to someone, who is thinking how to make them a cheaper concurence

 

As far as I know, for the initial cooling down will be needed some sort of container for the body, filled with ice. So, you will neeed also some sort of ice machine For the cryoprotectant transfusion will be need an artificial heart pumping system, such as those, that are used for the heart operations. Further will be needed another container, that will be now individual for the patient, that will be cooled down with liquid nitrogen and will be placed in a dewar.

 

So, consumatives are: the personal metal container, the individual dewar, the ice, liquid nitrogen and the cryoprotectant. Their cost is for patient, and I don't see a way for that to be avoided, as a cost for each patient, right? Are cryoprotectants sold somewhere and what is their cost?

[Antonio2014]

I found a price comparison here: http://www.cryonics....he-ci-advantage

 

And you can find what materials they use here: http://www.cryonics.org/resources/ Browse the right menu. For example, for local standby they use this: http://www.cryonics....nd-instructions (and there is even a manual).

Edited by Antonio2014, 27 October 2014 - 07:15 AM.

[YOLF]

I suppose, that they will not be very glad to give away information to someone, who is thinking how to make them a cheaper concurence

 

As far as I know, for the initial cooling down will be needed some sort of container for the body, filled with ice. So, you will neeed also some sort of ice machine For the cryoprotectant transfusion will be need an artificial heart pumping system, such as those, that are used for the heart operations. Further will be needed another container, that will be now individual for the patient, that will be cooled down with liquid nitrogen and will be placed in a dewar.

 

So, consumatives are: the personal metal container, the individual dewar, the ice, liquid nitrogen and the cryoprotectant. Their cost is for patient, and I don't see a way for that to be avoided, as a cost for each patient, right? Are cryoprotectants sold somewhere and what is their cost?

[chubtoad]

 

What is the best way to do polling over the internet (I've heard of Survey Monkey, is that of any use here?)?  We don't even have a guess of how many people would do Cryonics if it was totally free, do we?

I like google forms. They are easy and there's nothing extra to sign up for. The data is put directly into an excel spreadsheet that can be accessed in browser. I made this if you'd like to spread it around. If you have any suggestions for questions, I'll add them. 

 

Though if we really want respondents, we'll have to sign up with a service like MySurvey or Carol Adams, and that costs money. I think we can get a grant for it though.

 

 

How much would it cost to get a reasonable sample size do you think?  I would be really curious to see what the level of interest would be in cryonics if money was not a huge issue. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

I went lost in calculations. I receive either unrealistically low, either unrealistically high costs. Do you know the average cost of the cryoprotectant, needed for vitrification of a person per kilogram?