• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo

Stem cells for hurt knees?

topic tag

  • Please log in to reply
75 replies to this topic
⌛⇒ MITOMOUSE has been fully funded!

#1 sthira

  • Guest
  • 1,984 posts
  • 399

Posted 11 October 2014 - 03:53 PM


A few years ago I crashed my bicycle on ice, fell on my face, and split my knee's white-zone meniscus into two. Ugh. Don't do this. There's no blood supply to the thing, so it won't regrow once it's damaged.

So I had an arthroscopy, and the surgeon removed about half of that irreplaceable shock absorber. Now, of course, I'm suffering knee inflammation, instability, and pain.

I've bought a slew of promising supplements -- name one, I'll bet I've tried it -- and nothing has really worked over these past two years to relieve the inflammation and pain. So I'm thinking about prolotherapy, PRP, or allogeneic human mesenchymal stem cell injections in an attempt to regrow this critical portion of the meniscus.

I've searched around quite a bit, and I'm wondering if anyone has insight or experience with these new regenerative technologies?

Prolotherapy, PRP, and stem cells injections are not covered by insurance. So insurance companies don't think these experimental techniques have enough human evidence yet to support their claims. Which is true, I think. And neither do orthopedists, who say it's just too early to know if they work. If there's no blood supply to the white-zone of the meniscus, then how could these treatments work?

So this will be a financial gamble if I decide to do it. Anyway, what do you think any of these new regenerative technologies that may help regrow white-zone meniscus tissue?
  • like x 1

#2 seivtcho

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 407
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 11 October 2014 - 04:45 PM

Some time ago, I gathered a lot of information about PRP for bone regeneration of the jaws. We waited for a suitable patient and filled a bone cavity with PRP mixed with patient's own blood in order for the bone to regenerate. The results were very dubious. I don't want to discourage you, but most probabbly, you will only give away your money.



Click HERE to rent this BIOSCIENCE adspot to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 mpe

  • Guest, F@H
  • 275 posts
  • 181
  • Location:Australia

Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:05 AM

About 21 years ago, I fell from a ladder, knee first onto a step.

I had broken my left Tibial plateau.

The surgeon screwed my knee back together and told me that it 10 years I would have to have a total knee replacement.

18 years after the break my arthritis had grown severe, the pain would keep me awake at night and I was having trouble with everyday life.

 

Since the original operation I had been reading about stem cells; they didn't know what they were then.

Whilst I was in hospital from the first operation, I read a magazine article (Time Magazine I think) about a European footballer who had broken his knee and had "bone marrow" injected into his knee. His knee recovered and he went on to play Soccer for several more years.

I held on hoping the treatment he had could become available for me.

 

Whilst browsing the net I discovered the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney Australia was recruiting for a stem cell trial for osteoarthritis in knees. I applied, was accepted and had the treatment.

They used abdominal fat stem cells, the whole process was 4 hours walk in, walk out.

The whole process was done under local anaesthetic.

The process involved taking 300ml of fat cells by liposuction, separation of the fat from stem cells and reinjecting the stem cells back into the knee.

The doctors performing the procedure told me that the longest part of the process was in "blinding the injections" for the trial.

 

I went on the table at 9.00am for the "lipo" and left the hospital to go home at 1.00pm.

I went in, in pain and left under a local anaesthetic, I also had a saline injection in the knee, because the doctors said I had a dry socket in the knee.

I was told the local would last for 2 or 3 hours and the saline would reduce the pain for a couple of weeks.

 

I have never had arthritic pain in my knee since the stem cell therapy.

I had before and after MRI's showing the damage to the knee and tibia before the stem cells and the dramatic improvement after.

I have full range of movement in the knee.

I don't take pain relief for my knee at all.

 

Shortly after the trial had finished, the improvements in my knee stopped.

I wasn't worried, it didn't regress  I simply thought the stem cells had run their course.

The forum had just discovered C60 and I had been tempted to try it, but part of the trial agreement was that I not use any ant-inflammatory  agents for the period of the trial.

The trial was over, I started the C60 at 15mg once a week, it was like having the stem cell therapy all over again, not as dramatic as the original injection but still very noticeable compared to no C60.

 

Given my experience, I do recommend Stem Cell Therapy even if you have to pay for all out of your own pocket.

If you do have it done consider medical tourism.

if you have it done do use C60 and other anti-inflammatories such as curcumin.

Consider abdominal fat stem cells instead of mesenchymal stem cells if only from a pain perspective, as I have read their extraction can be quite painful.

 

Mike

 


  • like x 3

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Advertisements help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. [] To go ad-free join as a Member.

#4 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,650 posts
  • 570
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:31 PM

I sorted my knee out with Gelatine and Horny Goat Weed.
Horney goat weed provides the same thing as stem cells without the cost and pain.
Gelatine provides all the raw materials required.

Also it looks like the body grows blood vessels to places low in cartilage and certain bacteria that normally do very little find this situation ideal to proliferate and sabotage the repair process.
This is easy to fix with antibiotics and probably EVCO.

Hold your cursor over topic search on the left, then click Google site search to search this site for the above.
I have way too many tabs open to provide links atm.

Edited by Logic, 12 October 2014 - 12:35 PM.


#5 resveratrol_guy

  • Guest
  • 1,160 posts
  • 236

Posted 12 October 2014 - 01:32 PM

Thanks mpe. That was high quality data compared to most of the anecdotes in this field.

 

My 2 cents... as you can find on Google, marrow mining techniques have improved considerably in recent years, particularly with respect to pain and invasiveness. And given that adipose tissue is more exposed to radiation, fat-soluble pesticides, and other hazards, I'd prefer to go the marrow route if possible (or a GCSF-induced emulation thereof).

 

But yeah: stem cell therapy is unproven, unapproved, etc. etc. The leading edge of medicine always will be. It's like the stock market: you can't expose yourself to maximum upside without assuming the risk of high uncertainty.

 



#6 sthira

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 1,984 posts
  • 399

Posted 12 October 2014 - 03:33 PM

Thank you all for the good energy.

Some time ago, I gathered a lot of intformation about PRP for bone regeneration of the jaws. We waited for a suitable patient and filled a bone cavity with PRP mixed with patient's own blood in order for the bone to regenerate. The results were very dubious. I don't want to discourage you, but most probabbly, you will only give away your money.


But are bone regeneration attempts different from cartilege regeneration attempts?

I have never had arthritic pain in my knee since the stem cell therapy.
I had before and after MRI's showing the damage to the knee and tibia before the stem cells and the dramatic improvement after.
I have full range of movement in the knee.
I don't take pain relief for my knee at all.

Shortly after the trial had finished, the improvements in my knee stopped.
I wasn't worried, it didn't regress I simply thought the stem cells had run their course.
The forum had just discovered C60 and I had been tempted to try it, but part of the trial agreement was that I not use any ant-inflammatory agents for the period of the trial.
The trial was over, I started the C60 at 15mg once a week, it was like having the stem cell therapy all over again, not as dramatic as the original injection but still very noticeable compared to no C60.


Thanks, Mike, for some hope and inspiration. When you suffered damage from the fall from the ladder, and your doctor rebuilt the knee, was meniscus damage part of the damage repair? Are you saying that your MRIs indicate that stem cell implantation regenerated white-zone meniscus?

I've not tested positive for arthritis. But your experience seems to jibe with what I've read online: stem cell injections may help with some cases of osteoarthritis. But I wonder if curing knee arthritis is different from attempting to regrow white-zone meniscus tissue?

Also, I've been taking about 30 mg per week of my homemade c60 olive oil (SES buckyballs into a commodity Amphora Nueva olive oil) for about two years, and I've not noticed any differences in knee inflammation, instability, or pain.

I sorted my knee out with Gelatine and Horny Goat Weed.
Horney goat weed provides the same thing as stem cells without the cost and pain.
Gelatine provides all the raw materials required.

Also it looks like the body grows blood vessels to places low in cartilage and certain bacteria that normally do very little find this situation ideal to proliferate and sabotage the repair process.
This is easy to fix with antibiotics and probably EVCO.

Hold your cursor over topic search on the left, then click Google site search to search this site for the above.
I have way too many tabs open to provide links atm.


Thanks, Logic. I admit I haven't tried horny goat weed, coconut oil, or antibiotics to attempt to regrow meniscus tissue. But my understanding is that we may provide all the raw materials (eg, gelatin) required to refashion the white-zone meniscus; but if no blood supply exists here (plenty of bricks, but no bricklayers) then the cartilege won't regrow.

The idea you wrote that the body "grows blood vessels to places low in cartilage" is interesting and hopeful. We would be asking the body to suddenly grow new blood supply lines into areas not natively supplied in the first place (like white-zone meniscus tissue). How would it "know" what to do (grow), how to do it, and then when to stop growing blood vessels?

Click HERE to rent this BIOSCIENCE adspot to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#7 mpe

  • Guest, F@H
  • 275 posts
  • 181
  • Location:Australia

Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:17 AM

My articular cartilage and tibia were damaged, as far as I know the meniscus was not.

Stem cell therapy should work to repair the meniscus, after all if it can repair one cartilage why couldn't it repair another (only my opinion, perhaps it cant).

The C60 seemed to remove or inhibit whatever was reducing the effectiveness of the stem cells overtime. I'm not suggesting that the C60 is a replacement for the stem cell therapy, I don't believe that to be the case.

 

 

Mike



#8 seivtcho

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 407
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:12 AM

Thank you all for the good energy.
 

Some time ago, I gathered a lot of intformation about PRP for bone regeneration of the jaws. We waited for a suitable patient and filled a bone cavity with PRP mixed with patient's own blood in order for the bone to regenerate. The results were very dubious. I don't want to discourage you, but most probabbly, you will only give away your money.


But are bone regeneration attempts different from cartilege regeneration attempts?
 

 

 

Yes, they are different.

 

It is only my view, that simply putting stem cells in a damaged section of the body does not result in repair of this section in humans. Mice regenerate everything only by placing enough stem cells in the damaged sections. Humans, however, are somewhat different and stem cells for some or anoher reason don't do the job.
 

But you got a right point, that I am not the perfect expert to be asked. If PRP does not regenerate bone in the jaws, this does not mean, that it will not regenerate it in the leg. Moreover, you are right, that you are talking about different tissue here. A traumatologist, who has an eperience with PRP has to say his oppinion. Unfortunately the medicine today is in a state, that you will receive a positive oppinion even if the doctor thinks, that nothing will happen.



#9 sthira

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 1,984 posts
  • 399

Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:00 PM

A Randomized Clinical Trial Using Mesenchymal Stem Cells for Meniscus Regeneration and Osteoarthritis
Classification: Sports Medicine/Arthroscopy
Keywords: Articular Cartilage; Knee Arthroscopy; Meniscal Repair / Transplants; Meniscus; MRI / Imaging
Author(s): C. T. Vangsness, Jr, MD, Los Angeles, California, United States
David T. Dellaero, MD, Durham, North Carolina, United States
David W. Griffin, MD, Vero Beach, Florida, United States
Jack Farr, II, MD, Greenwood, Indiana, United States
Joel L. Boyd, MD, Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
John B. O'Donnell, MD, Baltimore, Maryland, United States
David L. Fox, MD, San Antonio, Texas, United States
Abstract: INTRODUCTION
FIfty-five patients without a medial meniscus tear underwent a phase I/II double blind controlled study evaluating the safety and efficacy of an allographic mesenchymal stem cell (MSC) drug injection. The purpose of this study was to evaluate the effect of an MSC injection on meniscus regeneration and osteoarthritis (OA) progression.
METHODS
Fifty-five patients at seven institutions underwent a randomized prospective double blind trial. Under Institutional Review Board approval, a single superior lateral knee injection was given to the 7-10 day post-operative meniscectomy patients after aspiration. Patients were computer randomized to one of three single MSC injection groups: low dose (50 million cells), high dose (150 million cells) and a hyurolonic acid (HA) placebo. Hyaluronic acid was the carrier for the MSC injections. Patients were followed for safety, pain, articular cartilage progression/improvement, and meniscus regeneration. Timed intervals out to two years evaluated these parameters along with sequential MRI evaluations reviewed by centralized independent blinded musculoskeletal radiologists.
RESULTS
OA patients receiving MSCs experienced a statistically significant reduction in pain compared to those receiving the control. Patients receiving the control were 3.5 times more likely to experience degenerative bone changes associated with OA as compared to those receiving MSCs. The effects were dose dependent and pain scores following treatment. Subchondral sclerosis and osteophyte formation were reported in 21% of patients receiving the control, but only in 6% of MSC treated patients. No serious adverse events at the two-year follow up. MRI meniscus volume regrowth by digital analysis showed wide variabiltiy and no statistical improvement (p<0.05).
DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSIONThe single MSC injections were found to be safe at two years with no abnormal tissue growth. Meniscus regeneration was not statistically measured at these doses. An improvement in knee pain and less OA progression was noted in the MSC group suggesting a decrease in knee OA progression with MSC treatment.

⌛⇒ MITOMOUSE has been fully funded!

#10 seivtcho

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 407
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:04 PM

"Meniscus regeneration was not statistically measured at these doses." If you, however, decide to use PRP, tell us after that if you solved your problem. According to this study,it won't.



#11 sthira

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 1,984 posts
  • 399

Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:47 PM

"Meniscus regeneration was not statistically measured at these doses." If you, however, decide to use PRP, tell us after that if you solved your problem. According to this study,it won't.


Yeah, I get it and share your skepticism, of course. But at this point I'm looking into a stem cell transplant into the medial meniscus. Stem cells will be taken from my hip or abdominal, then injected and glued into place. Different from that 2012 paper I posted above, these will be my own cells.

Like you, I'm doubtful. It's a gamble against pain. Will it help with tissue regeneration? Shrug, who knows. If I do this, I'll certainly post my experiences here. Maybe that'll be helpful to someone else with similar issues. I'm reading anecdotal accounts elsewhere, and they're generally mixed reviews slanting into the negative territory.

#12 seivtcho

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 407
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 13 October 2014 - 05:50 PM

The stem cells would help only if new meniscus can bemade for you in the lab, and transplanted later.



#13 sthira

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 1,984 posts
  • 399

Posted 13 October 2014 - 06:11 PM

biodegradable scaffolding: http://www.sciencedi...142961209013829

#14 seivtcho

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 407
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 13 October 2014 - 06:24 PM

This all is experimental.



#15 BLimitless

  • Guest
  • 218 posts
  • 51
  • Location:UK

Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:13 PM

Does anybody know of any doctors who would be willing to help out in regards to these matters?

One procedure I have heard of is called Regenexx. For the known-to-be-effective solution it requires a flight to the Cayman Islands for treatment with the procedure Regenexx-C as US law prohibits culturing stem cells as they're classified as a "drug" by the FDA and there was a court case regarding that between these two parties.

 

Another thing I am looking at is IAGH - intra articular growth hormone therapy via Dr Alan Dunn.

 

 

If there are herbal methods I am all ears. What does Horny Goat Weed do towards regenerating tissue in the difficult zone?

 

I am open to every possible route. ACL/Meniscus tear here. It sucks. The ACL reconstruction surgery causes issues - the ACL is at a particular angle and shape and alignment in the knee joint and generally the reconstructed ligament is attached at a different angle in a way so as to be a straight line between two points. This simplification of the complex knee geometry causes misalignment of the opposite side knee joint for various reasons. Consequenty it is observed that a large percentage of post-surgery patients return with a fresh injury in the other knee joint for additional surgery within around 2 years. Two thirds or so of people IIRC go on to develop osteoarthritis after the procedure. ACL reconstruction is simply too hack'n'slash a method to do true justice to the knee in my understanding.

 

 

So it stands, what are the possible routes that we could explore in terms of regenerative medicine for restoring the genuine biomechanics of the joint? I was just about to actually make this exact thread but you posted it OP, quite a funny turn of events, funny I went to this exact subforum to click "new topic", aye!

 

 

I really don't care if a technique is experimental. If it is viable and the proposed method of repair is genuinely feasible then I'm diving in. But what actually are the possible bleeding edge methods for total regeneration of knee joints? I'm sure there are some incredible things going on out there, judging by the things I'm hearing like scientists growing human ears on the backs of mice or rats or whatever.

Surely there MUST be a way in this vast universe of gargantuan proportions and complexity to regenerate the ligaments and cartilage to the status of brand new... What then is the way?

Repair of a complete anterior cruciate tear using prolotherapy: a case report
 

http://www.uhs.nhs.u...lls-in-hip.aspx

Surgeons create 'new' knee cartilage from stem cells in hip

Surgeons in Southampton have pioneered a new knee operation that could prevent the development of arthritis – and extend sporting careers.

The procedure, which is currently being trialled at Southampton General Hospital, involves coating damaged cartilage with stem cells, taken from a patient’s own hip, and surgical glue.

Known as ABICUS – Autologous Bone Marrow Implantation of Cells University Hospital Southampton – the technique, if successful, will regenerate the remaining tissue and create a permanent, “like-for-like” replacement for the first time.

(...)

Patients who undergo the ABICUS operation have the cartilage cut and tidied and undergo microfracture, but their cartilage tissue is then coated with a substance made up of bone marrow cells, platelet gel and hyaluronic acid.

During the 30-minute procedure, the bone marrow sample is spun in a centrifuge in the operating theatre to give a concentrated amount of the patient's own stem cells.

These cells are then mixed with the gel and acid to create a ‘glue’ substance which is placed over the cartilage defect and allowed to set.

Gorav Datta, a consultant orthopaedic surgeon at Southampton General Hospital and the study’s principal investigator, said: “The development of this technique and the study we are conducting could revolutionise the treatment of common cartilage injury by creating a like-for-like, identical cartilage replacement for the first time.
(...)

 


Edited by BLimitless, 13 October 2014 - 08:19 PM.


#16 ceridwen

  • Guest
  • 1,289 posts
  • 94

Member Away
  • Location:UK

Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:32 PM

Southampton is a good University
  • unsure x 1

#17 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,650 posts
  • 570
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:24 PM

Thanks, Logic. I admit I haven't tried horny goat weed, coconut oil, or antibiotics to attempt to regrow meniscus tissue. But my understanding is that we may provide all the raw materials (eg, gelatin) required to refashion the white-zone meniscus; but if no blood supply exists here (plenty of bricks, but no bricklayers) then the cartilege won't regrow.

The idea you wrote that the body "grows blood vessels to places low in cartilage" is interesting and hopeful. We would be asking the body to suddenly grow new blood supply lines into areas not natively supplied in the first place (like white-zone meniscus tissue). How would it "know" what to do (grow), how to do it, and then when to stop growing blood vessels?


Info on HGW:
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=565043

Olive Leaf Extract helps damaged cartilage to heal more quickly
http://www.ergo-log....re-quickly.html

Ecdysterone repairs cartilage in joints
http://www.ergo-log....ronejoints.html

I have no idea how or all the why's the body blood vessels to damaged cartilage, but it does so for damaged spinal disks, so the chances are very good it will do so for other areas IMHO
http://www.longecity...-pain-patients/

#18 sthira

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 1,984 posts
  • 399

Posted 14 October 2014 - 12:58 AM

I think horny goat weed, olive leaf extract, and ecdysterone may help relieve inflammation. But inflammation relief is not avascular cartilage regeneration. Without a blood supply to ferry them in, how would these compounds -- even if they could work meniscus miracles -- restore damaged areas?

#19 sthira

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 1,984 posts
  • 399

Posted 14 October 2014 - 01:32 AM

Howdy, BLimitless!

Does anybody know of any doctors who would be willing to help out in regards to these matters?


I certainly don't, and the field looks a bit wild, wild west to me. I'm sure you've googled the hell out of this, too, and probably reached similar conclusions. The clinics offering help seem sketchy and expensive to me. Peddling hope and unproven promises to hurt people. There's a reason insurance companies don't cover these experimental treatments: they're may not work. If I decide to go ahead with my little stem cell drama, I'll just try the nearest university hospital.

If there are herbal methods I am all ears. What does Horny Goat Weed do towards regenerating tissue in the difficult zone?

I am open to every possible route. ACL/Meniscus tear here. It sucks. ....


Other than surgery, what have you tried to help your knee damage?

#20 BLimitless

  • Guest
  • 218 posts
  • 51
  • Location:UK

Posted 14 October 2014 - 04:08 PM

Qigong works. Qigong is like Tai Chi except faster, at a pace similar to daily movement. After a few months of qigong practice I found my knee stopped locking up and I could do one-legged pistol squats on the damaged leg. What it taught me is how to move in line with what the body wants, rather than brute-force motion. However it has not helped reconnect the ligament and the meniscus tear I am guessing is still there. It did greatly help with swelling and pain and I believe it is an excellent damage limitation & rehabilitation method.

 

 

 

Spot on there, it is indeed like the Wild West from what I can see. I believe for some reason that there is a doctor or some dude or girl out there on this blue speck in the middle of the Vast Expanse who's got the key to the lock. Whoever you are, please make yourself known for the world depends on you.



#21 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,341 posts
  • 236
  • Location:Italy

Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:51 PM

HGH injections into the joint-capsule should  activate the stem-cells:

 

http://www.iagh.com/

 

(website is horrible but treatment should be legit)


Edited by platypus, 14 October 2014 - 05:51 PM.


#22 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,650 posts
  • 570
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 14 October 2014 - 07:12 PM

I think horny goat weed, olive leaf extract, and ecdysterone may help relieve inflammation. But inflammation relief is not avascular cartilage regeneration. Without a blood supply to ferry them in, how would these compounds -- even if they could work meniscus miracles -- restore damaged areas?

 
All the links provided go to easy to read but well referenced articles by respected researchers Sthira.
I do hope you will take the time to follow them and revise your opinion.
:)

Vince Giuliano as this to say on HGW:
"...A series of in-vitro and animal model studies have shown that icariin can promote the differentiation and proliferation of cardiomyocyte s and otherstem cells in multiple organ systems, act as an antidepressant, be protective of neural cells, inhibit the breakdown of bone tissue, stimulate the development of new bone tissue, inhibit the actions of several toxic substances, attenuate unwanted microglial activation, stimulate angiogenesis, have a powerful effect in regulating the immune response, inhibit the inflammatory response in arthritis and other inflammatory disease conditions, and reduce or reverse bone loss due to injury or arthritis. Icariin administration extends the lifespan and healthspan of nematodes. It affects expression in numerous signaling pathways including MAPK, IGF-1, BMP, AMPK, NF-kappaB, MEK/ERK- and PI3K/Akt/eNOS, and, potentially could be the basis for new treatments addressing cancers, arthritis, osteoarthritis, asthma, acne, Alzheimer’s disease — and the list goes on. Finally, yes: older rats systematically administered icariin do exhibit accelerated sexual activity..."
http://www.anti-agin...um-and-icariin/
 
Here is more info showing that HGW does not just decrease inflammation:
http://www.sciencedi...063458412009314
http://osteoporosis-...onoids/icariin/

Ecdysterone
seems to increase the growth of trabecular tissue inside bone and thickens the growth plates at the end of bones, the last of which is cartiledge...?
The question mark is there as more research is required as to why Ecdysterone works, but work it does.

Olive Leaf extract
does decrease inflammation but also increases the rate of repair of purposefully damaged cartilage.
I wonder if this effect may have something to do with its proven enhancement of the immune system:
If the immune system is boosted perhaps the pathogens that sabotage the body's attempts at repair are minimised?

For those who don't believe that cartilage can grow back take a look at the photos here:
http://www.ergo-log....upplements.html

Edited by Logic, 14 October 2014 - 07:36 PM.


⌛⇒ MITOMOUSE has been fully funded!

#23 ironfistx

  • Guest
  • 854 posts
  • 20
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 15 October 2014 - 04:50 AM

There is a forum on this site about people who are getting stem cell work to repair their knees.

 

http://www.kneeguru.....php?board=53.0



#24 seivtcho

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 407
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 15 October 2014 - 06:31 AM

HGH injections into the joint-capsule should  activate the stem-cells:

 

http://www.iagh.com/

 

(website is horrible but treatment should be legit)

 

In order the stem cell to become a highly diferentiated cell, it has to pass through several sub - stages. Can the human growth hormone navigate it exactly on the path, that will lead to cartilageous tissue and transfor the stem cell through the sub - stages?

 

the site says:

"Based on significant measurable increase in motion, decrease of pain, and increase of joint space, the following percentages give some idea of the success rate"

e.g. based on nothing we say, that the success rate is great. But is it really so?



#25 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,341 posts
  • 236
  • Location:Italy

Posted 15 October 2014 - 07:35 AM

 

HGH injections into the joint-capsule should  activate the stem-cells:

 

http://www.iagh.com/

 

(website is horrible but treatment should be legit)

 

In order the stem cell to become a highly diferentiated cell, it has to pass through several sub - stages. Can the human growth hormone navigate it exactly on the path, that will lead to cartilageous tissue and transfor the stem cell through the sub - stages?

 

the site says:

"Based on significant measurable increase in motion, decrease of pain, and increase of joint space, the following percentages give some idea of the success rate"

e.g. based on nothing we say, that the success rate is great. But is it really so?

 

There's an interview of the doctor who pioneered the technique on Superhumanradio. The injections do not work for everyone but as the option is joint replacement, it is certainly worth a shot. 



#26 tepol

  • Guest
  • 100 posts
  • 19

Posted 15 October 2014 - 07:53 AM

Does anybody know of any doctors who would be willing to help out in regards to these matters?

One procedure I have heard of is called Regenexx. For the known-to-be-effective solution it requires a flight to the Cayman Islands for treatment with the procedure Regenexx-C as US law prohibits culturing stem cells as they're classified as a "drug" by the FDA and there was a court case regarding that between these two parties.
 
Another thing I am looking at is IAGH - intra articular growth hormone therapy via Dr Alan Dunn.
 
If there are herbal methods I am all ears. What does Horny Goat Weed do towards regenerating tissue in the difficult zone?
 
I am open to every possible route. ACL/Meniscus tear here. It sucks. The ACL reconstruction surgery causes issues - the ACL is at a particular angle and shape and alignment in the knee joint and generally the reconstructed ligament is attached at a different angle in a way so as to be a straight line between two points. This simplification of the complex knee geometry causes misalignment of the opposite side knee joint for various reasons. Consequenty it is observed that a large percentage of post-surgery patients return with a fresh injury in the other knee joint for additional surgery within around 2 years. Two thirds or so of people IIRC go on to develop osteoarthritis after the procedure. ACL reconstruction is simply too hack'n'slash a method to do true justice to the knee in my understanding.
 
So it stands, what are the possible routes that we could explore in terms of regenerative medicine for restoring the genuine biomechanics of the joint? I was just about to actually make this exact thread but you posted it OP, quite a funny turn of events, funny I went to this exact subforum to click "new topic", aye!
 
I really don't care if a technique is experimental. If it is viable and the proposed method of repair is genuinely feasible then I'm diving in. But what actually are the possible bleeding edge methods for total regeneration of knee joints? I'm sure there are some incredible things going on out there, judging by the things I'm hearing like scientists growing human ears on the backs of mice or rats or whatever.

Surely there MUST be a way in this vast universe of gargantuan proportions and complexity to regenerate the ligaments and cartilage to the status of brand new... What then is the way?

Repair of a complete anterior cruciate tear using prolotherapy: a case report
 

http://www.uhs.nhs.u...lls-in-hip.aspx
Surgeons create 'new' knee cartilage from stem cells in hip
Surgeons in Southampton have pioneered a new knee operation that could prevent the development of arthritis – and extend sporting careers.
The procedure, which is currently being trialled at Southampton General Hospital, involves coating damaged cartilage with stem cells, taken from a patient’s own hip, and surgical glue.
Known as ABICUS – Autologous Bone Marrow Implantation of Cells University Hospital Southampton – the technique, if successful, will regenerate the remaining tissue and create a permanent, “like-for-like” replacement for the first time.
(...)
Patients who undergo the ABICUS operation have the cartilage cut and tidied and undergo microfracture, but their cartilage tissue is then coated with a substance made up of bone marrow cells, platelet gel and hyaluronic acid.
During the 30-minute procedure, the bone marrow sample is spun in a centrifuge in the operating theatre to give a concentrated amount of the patient's own stem cells.
These cells are then mixed with the gel and acid to create a ‘glue’ substance which is placed over the cartilage defect and allowed to set.
Gorav Datta, a consultant orthopaedic surgeon at Southampton General Hospital and the study’s principal investigator, said: “The development of this technique and the study we are conducting could revolutionise the treatment of common cartilage injury by creating a like-for-like, identical cartilage replacement for the first time.
(...)

 


You don't suffer from any connective tissues diseases , do you ?
 
Ehler Danlos Syndrome has quite variety of types , and not always evident until even your 30's, and
 
PRP's main issues is that there is no standard method for comparing or knowing who is using  what , and in what way . They tried to establish some universal approach / way of proving it works but AFAIK no one could agree ! ( prob because it = more $$$ ) . Rafael Nadal had it on his knees ( not sure for what ) and it seemed to help him , but it didn't cure him ( he still has issues ) though he is prob not one of the best examples  ( any one who has seen how Nadal  moves / plays will know what I mean )

Edit: Fixed attributions -niner


Edited by niner, 21 October 2014 - 11:41 AM.


#27 seivtcho

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 407
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 15 October 2014 - 08:06 AM

 

 

HGH injections into the joint-capsule should  activate the stem-cells:

 

http://www.iagh.com/

 

(website is horrible but treatment should be legit)

 

In order the stem cell to become a highly diferentiated cell, it has to pass through several sub - stages. Can the human growth hormone navigate it exactly on the path, that will lead to cartilageous tissue and transfor the stem cell through the sub - stages?

 

the site says:

"Based on significant measurable increase in motion, decrease of pain, and increase of joint space, the following percentages give some idea of the success rate"

e.g. based on nothing we say, that the success rate is great. But is it really so?

 

There's an interview of the doctor who pioneered the technique on Superhumanradio. The injections do not work for everyone but as the option is joint replacement, it is certainly worth a shot. 

 

 

OK. Use it and give feedback.


  • dislike x 2

#28 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,650 posts
  • 570
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 15 October 2014 - 09:11 PM

Oh yes: Gelatine increases HGH over 6X 2 hrs after consumption:
http://www.nature.co...jcn201021a.html

Graphs and an easy read on Gelatine here:
http://www.ergo-log....gelatinegh.html
  • like x 1

#29 BLimitless

  • Guest
  • 218 posts
  • 51
  • Location:UK

Posted 21 October 2014 - 10:12 AM

Not quite stem cells but another form of regenerative medicine:
http://softtissuereg...w/l-c-ligament/

"The STR soft tissue engineered matrices regenerate native tissue and actually allow a new, native ACL to regrow."


  • like x 1

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Advertisements help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. [] To go ad-free join as a Member.

#30 sthira

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 1,984 posts
  • 399

Posted 30 October 2014 - 11:48 PM

Title: Intra-articular injection of human meniscus stem/progenitor cells promotes meniscus regeneration and ameliorates osteoarthritis through stromal cell-derived factor-1/CXCR4-mediated homing.

Author: Shen W; Chen J; Zhu T; Chen L; Zhang W; Fang Z; Heng BC; Yin Z; Chen X; Ji J; Chen W; Ouyang HW

Journal: Stem Cells Transl Med; 2014 Mar; 3(3):387-94. PubMed ID: 24448516

Abstract:

Meniscus injury is frequently encountered in clinical practice. Current surgical therapy involving partial or complete meniscectomy relieves pain in the short-term but often leads to osteoarthritis (OA) in the long-term. In this study, we report a new strategy of articular cartilage protection by intra-articular injection of novel human meniscus stem/progenitor cells (hMeSPCs). We found that hMeSPCs displayed both mesenchymal stem cell characteristics and high expression levels of collagen II. In the rat meniscus injury model, hMeSPC transplantation not only led to more neo-tissue formation and better-defined shape but also resulted in more rounded cells and matured extracellular matrix. Stromal cell-derived factor-1 (SDF-1) enhanced the migration of hMeSPCs, whereas AMD3100 abolished the chemotactic effects of SDF-1 on hMeSPCs, both in vitro and in vivo. In an experimental OA model, transplantation of hMeSPCs effectively protected articular cartilage, as evidenced by reduced expression of OA markers such as collagen I, collagen X, and hypoxia-inducible factor 2α but increased expression of collagen II. Our study demonstrated for the first time that intra-articular injection of hMeSPCs enhanced meniscus regeneration through the SDF-1/CXCR4 axis. Our study highlights a new strategy of intra-articular injection of hMeSPCs for meniscus regeneration.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users