30 replies to this topic

[sub7]

As some of you may know from my earlier posts, I am new to Nootropics. After some great advice from all of you I have ordered what I would call a basic stack and started 2 days ago by taking only the Piracetam (as per LifeMirage's suggestions, I am trying them one at a time to better assess what the effects of the individual compounds are, I will add the other compunds as the days/weeks go by).

So for the last 2 days, I have been taking 1.5 grams of Piracetam. Interestingly I am feeling tired and dazed-especialy later during the day.

An important sidenote: I had been using lecithin for a few months (2x1200 mg capsules) to aid with my weight training workouts and saw a marked improvement in recovery. Therefore, I did not want to rush to add GPC, although I ordered the compund and already have some. I am a little worried about too much choline making my insomnia worse.

So what do you think? Can just 1.5 grams of Priacetam -despite the 2,4 gram of lecithin that i am taking with it- make me dazed and tired?

Sub7

[LifeMirage]

I would take the Alpha GPC first thing in the morning...perhaps 300 mg to start..being water soluble it should not keep you up...also there are a fair amount of people who feel tired after taking Piracetam due to a lack of acetylcholine.

[sub7]

LifeMirage,

You don't see any issues with taking Alpha GPC and Lecithin together (i.e. during the course of the same day) do you?

Also, I have started with 1.5 grams of Piracetam but this was just trying to be conservative. I am reading that 2-2.5 grams is a more common dose. If I should increase Piracetam to 2 grams, should I also up the GPC dose?

Thanks so much for the input

Sub7

[LifeMirage]

You don't see any issues with taking Alpha GPC and Lecithin together (i.e. during the course of the same day) do you?

No, they are quite different forms of choline. Lecithin contains small amounts of PhosphatidylCholine.. which is not readily converted into Acetylcholine.

Also, I have started with 1.5 grams of Piracetam but this was just trying to be conservative. I am reading that 2-2.5 grams is a more common dose. If I should increase Piracetam to 2 grams, should I also up the GPC dose?

I see no problem increasing your dose..just do it slowy and careful review your insomina in case it gets worse.

[sub7]

Thank you very much LifeMirage.
Just like all yor input this, too, is greatly appreciated.

One final question: Is there any nootropic that could potentially HELP insomnia? (I am aware of melatonin, 5-HTP, Sam-e and all the other stuff that people may have tried for sleep at some point or another and they do little for me). Or is this an impossibility since nootropics generally increase brain function and if anything would ramp-up brain activity instead of slowing it down?

Sub7

[exigentsky]

Considering that you mentioned what I was about to recommend, I don't think there are many that will help you. But have you tried Bacopin?

[REGIMEN]

Sorry if you've heard this before, sub7, but I'm just trying to help.

1) 1.5g Ashwaghanda, one hour before bed. I've tried this a few times and it does seem to help me sleep deeper but I don't have any problems falling asleep like you do. Most posts that I've seen this mentioned in claim that it is taken before bed as it makes the user sleepy.

2) 5g GABA, one hour before bed. I have never used this but have had some experiences with Phenibut and abnormally high GABA levels (I know the feeling of the latter through a # of experiences from the former), both of which made me sleepy. The dose of 5g is one that seems to impart another benefit of increasing HGH, so why not get sleepy and also have that benefit?

[sub7]

Liplex,
Every effort to help is appreciated. Thanks so much. I had heard of Ashwaganda's calming properties but never considered it for sleep. I will try it one of these days. The GABA does sound more interesting, but here is my situation:

In order to minimize the chance of developing tolerance/dependence I am taking different sleep meds based on how I feel, instead of taking the same one every single night. I may take a tricyclic antidepressant (at much lower doses than would be used for depression) for 3-4 nights, than for 1 night not take anything to give the drug just a bit more time to clear the system and minimize synergistic effects wth the next drug- and then take Sonata or Lunesta for a few days mixed with a very very low dose tetracyclic antidep for a few days.

Now if GABA proves effective at 5 grams, will there be any issues in cycling this? 5 grams sounds like a high dose and the last thing I want is rebound insomnia when I stop taking it after a few nights....

Any thoughts?

[johnmk]

I've been sleeping very, very, very well lately. I take 1mg of melatonin before bed, 1 pill of ZMA (10mg Zinc from Zinc Monomethionine Aspartate, 150mg Magnesium from Magnesium Aspartate, Vitamin B6), 1 pill of 1 gram Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and 1 pill of 450mg 4.5% extract Ashwagandha (NOW brand). When I do wake up, I have recollections of my dreams, and I believe that immediately prior to waking up I'm either in or very recently in a state of dreaming. I would like to cut my dose of melatonin in half and see if it ameliorates my curious . . . odd grogginess/discoordination that I feel for about 5 minutes post immediately waking up, something that I don't believe I used to feel. But damn, I sleep so well.

[lemon]

I sometimes take A-GPC and piracetam before bed and I have vivid dreams.

[scottl]

Ashwaganda indeed works well before bed and has helped me sleep deeper.

[sub7]

I've been sleeping very, very, very well lately. I take 1mg of melatonin before bed, 1 pill of ZMA (10mg Zinc from Zinc Monomethionine Aspartate, 150mg Magnesium from Magnesium Aspartate, Vitamin B6), 1 pill of 1 gram Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and 1 pill of 450mg 4.5% extract Ashwagandha (NOW brand). When I do wake up, I have recollections of my dreams, and I believe that immediately prior to waking up I'm either in or very recently in a state of dreaming. I would like to cut my dose of melatonin in half and see if it ameliorates my curious . . . odd grogginess/discoordination that I feel for about 5 minutes post immediately waking up, something that I don't believe I used to feel. But damn, I sleep so well.

I have tried everything you have noted above except Ashwaganda. Since the other stuff did absolutely nothing for me I will try the Ashwaganda and see what happens. I doubt that combining ZMA or C or Melatonin with Ashwaganda will likely have a synergistic effect because those things on their own did absolutely NOOOOOTHING.

But pls don't let this discourage you from trying these compunds for yourself because my sleep problems are very deep and what failed to work for me may work great for you.

As always any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Sub7

[enigma]

As always any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Phenibut, outstanding for sleep. 50mg of 5HTP, I find, helps a little.

[mitkat]

I did some experimenting with 5-HTP a number of months ago, and I found it to work really well. I took 100mg 1/2 hour before bed. I've never had serious sleep problems though, but my sleep did feel "deeper", as subjective as that is.

[exigentsky]

But I suggest you don't continue with Ephedra. It's known to be qutie dangerous now. More than 150 people died from using it as recommended.

[xanadu]

I've been experimenting with piracetam lately myself. I'm also taking vinpocetine but I've taken that before with little noticeable effects. What piracetam has done is given a noticeable effect. It seems somewhat stimulating and it affected my sleep. I took care of that with some phenibut but that can't be used all the time so I'm thinking of going with gaba. I already take 3mg melatonin every night but that does't do a whole lot.

I seem to be more alert on the piracetam. I can't say it made me any smarter though it may have. I like the effect and plan to continue. I'm using about 1.25gm per day. I also am taking .6gm per day of choline bitarate which I just started, also 1gm lecethin per day.

I've tried 5 htp for sleep and it worked at first but then nothing. It's also sort of expensive. I hear you can take gaba long term with no problems. I plan to order a kilo of that.

[mnosal]

But I suggest you don't continue with Ephedra. It's known to be qutie dangerous now. More than 150 people died from using it as recommended.

Out of the millions that have/do use it, that represents incredibly safe statistics. A whole 150 people? Better get the FDA to ban it (again).

Search out how many people die per year from Tylenol or Coors light

Don't believe the Hype my friend, all these people on Amphetamines & Adranfinil/Modafinil and your still worried about Ephedrine?

[exigentsky]

"Don't believe the Hype my friend, all these people on Amphetamines & Adranfinil/Modafinil and your still worried about Ephedrine?"

I don't think those people on "Amphetamines & Adranfinil/Modafinil " are doing themselves a health service either. Of course, Ephedrine is not quite as bad, but it still represents a significant health risk, especially if used daily. (which would be particularly foolish since it would be less effective)

"Out of the millions that have/do use it, that represents incredibly safe statistics. A whole 150 people? Better get the FDA to ban it (again)."

The FDA has clearly linked 155 deaths and more than a thousand injuries to Ephedra, the actual death toll is probably MUCH higher. In my opinion even if 10 out of 1 million die from this substance, that is already worrying. (unless it was a special circumstance, like allergy)

Ephedra is one of the most dangerous dietary supplements and I wouldn't risk using it.

http://www.ephedrine...ml/effects.html

[exigentsky]

Look, just because theoretically almost anything has a potential for abuse does not make this any better. It's like a little kid trying to justify his grades by saying his friends were just as bad. The fact is that Ephedra has a bad safety record and for its benefits, it is probably not worth it for most.

[mnosal]

Not safe for obese kids, and those with pre-existing hypertension....of course.

As a stimulant for otherwise healthy adults, it's no worse than caffeine. The fact that FDA & Pharma industries banded together to get it off the market only proves how effective it is for weight loss. Much more effective than current the PRESCRIPTION diet formulas(meridia etc).

That is why a 1000yr old Chinese herb became suddenly dangerous, because fatties stopped feeding their dollars to the "gazillion dollar a year" Pharmaceutical giants. That and the fact that no one could successfully get a patent on it

[exigentsky]

" Not safe for obese kids."

Wouldn't that automatically mean that those who want it for weight loss can't use it safely?

But anyway, I do not think it has anything to do with "not beigna ble to get a patent on it" and all this conspiracy theory. It was taken off the market because it was not considered safe enough as medication without a prescription.

[LifeMirage]

But anyway, I do not think it has anything to do with "not beigna ble to get a patent on it" and all this conspiracy theory. It was taken off the market because it was not considered safe enough as medication without a prescription.

The reason it was taken off the US market was the Media urging a ban, due to a few people abusing high doses of ephedrine.

The courts reversed the FDA ban, which was not based of the scientific weight of evidence.

Some links:

Webpage

Although some media quote the number of deaths due to ephedra at 155, an FDA-commissioned report in 2003 stated in its final ruling that five deaths could be attributed directly to ephedra.

[xanadu]

Salt is dangerous too, you can die from eating too much. I guess we should ban it and anything potentially dangerous like all power tools, sharp objects, etc.

[REGIMEN]

As far as the 5g GABA dose, well, I'm surprised you haven't addressed this mnosal ; weren't you the one to post the study about HGH increase at that dose? Could you share your GABA-startup-experience so our friend sub7 can get some rest?

[mnosal]

Well...I was pleased overall with the sleep quality and I feel that 3-5g might be a good trial dose for sub 7. 300mg of L-theanine might be a little easier to swallow though. I've recently taken a break from the GABA in favor of Theanine. Healthy sleep paterns have continued undisturbed, lending credence to the theory that L-theanine has more effect on GABA levels in the brain than GABA itself.

As far as GH release, I feel as though I shouldn't comment (since I had no test measurements during or as a control). I'll also bump the suggestion he try ZMA.
I have used it on occasion and found while it didn't make me drowsy per se, it did keep me "out" once I fell asleep.

[sub7]

Liplex, thank you for bringing the issue back to the original question. 3-5 gr of GABA sounds a bit high. For how long can one use this without risk?

Sub7