41 replies to this topic

[diabeticNorm]

When I was 27 I noticed my face started to lose underlying volume. The same old story applies to many people out there and I actually consider it to be the most significant problem in the early stages of growing older.

To cut a long story short, I accidental stumbled on a solution when I started taking beta-alanine. I put on a lot of muscular bulk but I also noticed my face filled out and I looked much younger. I went from people i didn't know treating me as a slightly older gentleman to treating me as if I had just left school (my skin is pretty young looking).

The volume increase is perfectly symmetrical and appropriate (although slightly bulky around the chin) and proved to me that facial exercises also defintely work as you can really see the shortening of the muscles at work.

My only issue is that you have to maintain a large muscular body which I would rather not and also that's not a good solution for women. But fear not though as I believe it is possible to enlarge the muscles enough if you use electrical stimulation. I won't post a link to an article I read about this because I want people to trust the validity of this post.

I am currently at the stage of wanting to reduce my dependence on beta-alanine and to increase bulk using a method such as electrical stimulation. Has anyone else out there found a viable method or used electrical stimulation?




I also think

[The Ripper]

Just sounds like water retention, bro.

Not sure how much of an effect beta-alanine would really have on muscle hypertrophy either.

[Heyman]

Why do you think its the beta alanine? It could be anything having to do with weight gain or resistance training as well. Did you lose weight for some reason when you noticed 'losing' volume? To anyone young reading this, take your sunscreen! It might help prevent facial fat loss. "IL-11, IL-1a, IL-6, and TNF-a are induced by solar radiation in vitro and may be involved in facial subcutaneous fat loss in vivo"

[mustardseed41]

I've taken beta-alanine for years. You make it sound like some monster mass gainer. Steroid like. Hardly the case.

Do you do specific facial exercises or are you referring to the crazy faces you make when you do an exercise like squats which would count as a facial exercise on some level.  

[diabeticNorm]

The Ripper: The method I use for delivery of beta-alanine to my muscles is to take carnosine in a high dose, in me, this seems to bulk up my muscles. Perhaps there is a difference in absorption of beta-alanine from carnosine. I am curious as to how it could be water retention? I have not read about water retention associated with carnosine/beta-alanine. Do you know of any papers?

Heyman: I think it's the beta-alanine because when I take less carnosine I get a definite overall loss of body muscle mass. When I take more, I bulk up again. I don't do any resistance training. It's the muscles not fat because the change happens too quickly and you can see it. I didn't lose weight when I noticed the volume loss, it's something that happens in everyone's face at different rates. The change is permanent it seems.

Mustardseed: in my case, and at the doses and method of delivery I chose, the muscle gain I experienced was "monster".

[diabeticNorm]

Anyhow the point of the matter is not beta-alanine, it's that you can enlarge muscle mass in the face to replace loss of other tissues. You can guess that it's not possible or doubt my analysis and that's fine if you want to do that. But it appears to me that I have actually done it and this is echoed by dermatologists who show case studies of where this has been done and provide methods for how to do it.

[Heyman]

Anyhow the point of the matter is not beta-alanine, it's that you can enlarge muscle mass in the face to replace loss of other tissues. You can guess that it's not possible or doubt my analysis and that's fine if you want to do that. But it appears to me that I have actually done it and this is echoed by dermatologists who show case studies of where this has been done and provide methods for how to do it.

 

I don't doubt that muscle can get some hypertrophy and fill your face. Is there actually any research done on facial exercises? I'm lifting myself since many years but I never had a problem with my face to begin with.

[diabeticNorm]

I think everyone is different and their faces change shape in different ways but one thing is consistent in my understanding of aging in that all faces will change shape and loss of volume will occur.

Here is evidence for changing of shape:

http://www.lipostruc.../AGING-2006.pdf

This guy goes on about how facial muscles can replace lost volume (I think you can do it all for free and don't need to buy his products):

http://www.dailymail...ry-needles.html


The effectiveness of facial exercises is difficult to show. There have not been many studies that I could find. Improvements in facial shape are difficult to measure and subjective opinions of those who use them can be wrong.

There are studies which show that it improves muscle size and skin firmness but the outcome of a facial lift has not been studied as far as I can see. My opinion is that the muscles do shorten in length, but it takes months. If you have a lot of sagging, the effect will be obvious.

[Clacksberg]

Facial exercises - my face simply looks 15 yrs younger one day and 10 years older the next.

Done all that exercise stuff results are too inconsistent,.

[diabeticNorm]

I obviously can't comment on your situation and how it actually panned out for you cactus. I can only repeat what you may already know anyway that how you feel and believe can influence how "young" you look. You have to also repeat the same observation with factors such as lighting and to use the same mirror. Pedantic I know but it's true....

[JohnD60]

Anyhow the point of the matter is not beta-alanine, it's that you can enlarge muscle mass in the face to replace loss of other tissues. You can guess that it's not possible or doubt my analysis and that's fine if you want to do that. But it appears to me that I have actually done it and this is echoed by dermatologists who show case studies of where this has been done and provide methods for how to do it.

Sure, but is it sustainable? You make no mention of how long you have been doing this. Why isn't your skin just going to adapt to the increased tissue volume? Is your plan to continue to increase your weight forever? And you can't replace lost bone, which is the biggest problem with sagging skin over the age of 35. Don't you think it is curious that only 30ish people discover cures for sagging skin, not 50ish people?

[diabeticNorm]

Hi JohnD, thanks for your reply.


<Sure, but is it sustainable?>
I think this is a good point. If you are asking if the face will change more then I'll say yes, there is going to be more bone changes and tissue loss. But you have much more control. You can also adapt the muscle size as you go.



You make no mention of how long you have been doing this>

A year



. <Why isn't your skin just going to adapt to the increased tissue volume? >

I don't understand what you mean . It will adapt most likely?


Is your plan to continue to increase your weight forever? >

If you read the whole series of posts you will see that you can increase the facial muscle size independently of your body. That's my plan! Additionally, there is only so much soft tissue that can be lost from the face.


And you can't replace lost bone, which is the biggest problem with sagging skin over the age of 35. >

Yep sorry about that but this is a great way of filling out the volume. You can slow bone loss with a good diet. Lost bone is also not the end of the world. I'm also a big believer in that it may be possible to replace lost bone by some method that has not yet been discovered or that is not widely popular on the first few pages of the surface web google has access to.


<Don't you think it is curious that only 30ish people discover cures for sagging skin, not 50ish people?>

I'm 31, in terms of sagging skin I can nearly guarantee you that that has a lot to do with muscle lengthening that can be undone by facial exercises. For many people boots no 7 cream or a cream containing fibrillin-1 will increase skin elasticity. There are many methods for increasing skin collagen and elastin. You may also increase the quality of your muscles with supplements such as beta-alanine and dmae.

[Heyman]

Sure, but is it sustainable? You make no mention of how long you have been doing this. Why isn't your skin just going to adapt to the increased tissue volume? Is your plan to continue to increase your weight forever? And you can't replace lost bone, which is the biggest problem with sagging skin over the age of 35. Don't you think it is curious that only 30ish people discover cures for sagging skin, not 50ish people?

 

How do you know bone loss is the biggest issue over age 35? All the graphs I looked at, people usually only have very slight bone loss until they get 45. Resistance exercise seems to increase bone mineral density and muscle mass even in older people, so I think its possible to delay this bone mass loss quite a lot if you stay active throughout your life. Older people who are still very athletic and active have bones and muscle that looks almost the same as that of younger people, I think a lot of this change is not caused by aging per se.

 

Another factor to consider would be subcutaenous fat loss. Thats something 50 year old people can't change in retrospect.This is not something that exercise will help and it will create volume loss. Sunscreen might help with this however, just like it helps to delay skin sagging.

 

In the end, there will be some things we likely can't stop right now or we are not even aware of right now. But I'm quite happy that we already have a knowledge about many things.

Edited by Heyman, 08 November 2014 - 08:23 AM.

[The Ripper]

What is the stated goal of this nonsense? I seem confused. Is it to replace lost bone or fat? Or both?

And given that I'm fairly confident in assuming everyone posting here lacks ideal bone structure don't you think augmenting that would be a better use of one's time and money? That will actually make a profound impact on how you age AND your looks right here and now. If fat loss is an issue then trial fillers and possibly use fat grafting if indicated.

What's the point of trying to achieve facial bloating and masseter hypertrophy if you have a gaunt potato face? Real solutions exist to address these problems. What has been mentioned here is not one of them.

[The Ripper]

Hi JohnD, thanks for your reply.


<Sure, but is it sustainable?>
I think this is a good point. If you are asking if the face will change more then I'll say yes, there is going to be more bone changes and tissue loss. But you have much more control. You can also adapt the muscle size as you go.



You make no mention of how long you have been doing this>

A year



. <Why isn't your skin just going to adapt to the increased tissue volume? >

I don't understand what you mean . It will adapt most likely?


Is your plan to continue to increase your weight forever? >

If you read the whole series of posts you will see that you can increase the facial muscle size independently of your body. That's my plan! Additionally, there is only so much soft tissue that can be lost from the face.

 

Are there bones sitting along the zygomatic arch? On top of the malars? The chin? The supraorbital ridge? The infraorbital rim? No. There aren't. What exactly do you plan on changing now? Why don't those with acromegaly or HGH-abusing bodybuilders age well despite superior facial musculature?

And one more problem: Humans can subconsciously distinguish between bone and non-bone in the face. It's why putting filler or implants in the cheeks always looks so failed, for example.

And you can't replace lost bone, which is the biggest problem with sagging skin over the age of 35. >

Yep sorry about that but this is a great way of filling out the volume. You can slow bone loss with a good diet. Lost bone is also not the end of the world. I'm also a big believer in that it may be possible to replace lost bone by some method that has not yet been discovered or that is not widely popular on the first few pages of the surface web google has access to.
 

Beauty is measured in millimetres. Bone loss is a huge issue and as I mention above, looking to augment lost bone with non-boney substances is a failed effort as it will never achieve the same aesthetic. At best you'll look bloated. 

Replacing lost bone is achievable to some extent by osteotomising bones and placing autologous bone grafts or other materials in between. Distraction osteogenesis is another method. 

Some doctors such as Mike Mew have interesting theories that may apply to adults. Problem is that even if he is right it would take decades of ideal mastication habits, oral posture and so forth to even induce a slight chance. Bone formation is all about what happens in one's childhood.
 

<Don't you think it is curious that only 30ish people discover cures for sagging skin, not 50ish people?>

I'm 31, in terms of sagging skin I can nearly guarantee you that that has a lot to do with muscle lengthening that can be undone by facial exercises. For many people boots no 7 cream or a cream containing fibrillin-1 will increase skin elasticity. There are many methods for increasing skin collagen and elastin. You may also increase the quality of your muscles with supplements such as beta-alanine and dmae.

 

It's probably just poor skin and weak bone structure. Look at someone with extremely well developed malars. Notice how they all age amazingly irrespective of lifestyle? Or how those with retrognathic mandibles go on to develop premature nasolabial folds? 

BONE PEOPLE! BONE BONE BONE!
 

 

Edited by The Ripper, 08 November 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[The Ripper]

Gah, should be muscles along the zygomatic arch not bone lol. My bad.

[mustardseed41]

All this talk about bone loss and no talk about vitamin K2?????

 

http://www.thehealth...over-your-face/

 

 

[diabeticNorm]

Hello TheRipper,

<What is the stated goal of this nonsense? I seem confused. Is it to replace lost bone or fat? Or both?>

The goal of this post was to report another method for filling volume. So the answer is that the goal is to replace both.

<And given that I'm fairly confident in assuming everyone posting here lacks ideal bone structure don't you think augmenting that would be a better use of one's time and money?

Speak for yourself :-p this doesn't have to cost anything. I think I realise what you are saying, that this can't replace the exact geometry, but in my case it has filled the volume in a positive way. I can't speak for how it would play out for the whole human species but it's a very useful tool as far as I am concerned. I am sure there is a lot to be said for augmenting your bone structure.


<That will actually make a profound impact on how you age AND your looks right here and now. If fat loss is an issue then trial fillers and possibly use fat grafting if indicated.>

Fillers don't address all areas. Volume is lost in all areas of the human face. Fillers cost money, this doesn't. With this you can slowly buildup the muscles to avoid damaging underlying tissues. Can you do that with fillers? I'm not sure. Fillers cost money. I am assuming you have never even seen a solution related to this. Check out perricones clients, Julia Roberts etc. All achieve volume increase through facial muscles.

<What's the point of trying to achieve facial bloating and masseter hypertrophy if you have a gaunt potato face?>

Because thats a solution to the gaunt potato face!


<Real solutions exist to address these problems. What has been mentioned here is not one of them.>

Obviously disagree with your opinion. Agree that it's not a perfect solution. But it's free and I am sure others on this forum can make their mind up

[diabeticNorm]

Are there bones sitting along the zygomatic arch? On top of the malars? The chin? The supraorbital ridge? The infraorbital rim? No.

There are muscles in lots of positions but yes, they won't be everywhere. I think this is getting away from the point, which I hope other forum members can see, that it can restore volume and I have already mentioned you won't get the same structure. No point arguing me into a point I already agree with! Many peoples bone structure works well with increased volume in other areas.


And one more problem: Humans can subconsciously distinguish between bone and non-bone in the face. It's why putting filler or implants in the cheeks always looks so failed, for example.

You can't say fillers are real solutions in one post and that they always look so failed here!! They don't always look so failed but often do, in my opinion. I find that interesting that humans can distinguish between bone and non-bone.



Beauty is measured in millimetres. Bone loss is a huge issue and as I mention above, looking to augment lost bone with non-boney substances is a failed effort as it will never achieve the same aesthetic. At best you'll look bloated.

It works. I agree with you on many points, it's just the conclusions are too strong IMO. There are many cases of excellent bone structures when people are older. I think bone loss can cause problems for many which may be irreconcilable but for many bone loss is not such a huge issue.

<Replacing lost bone is achievable to some extent by osteotomising bones and placing autologous bone grafts or other materials in between. Distraction osteogenesis is another method. >

Ok

Some doctors such as Mike Mew have interesting theories that may apply to adults. Problem is that even if he is right it would take decades of ideal mastication habits, oral posture and so forth to even induce a slight chance. Bone formation is all about what happens in one's childhood.

[b]It's probably just poor skin and weak bone structure.

I think it could be skin and bone changes but muscles do lengthen.

BONE PEOPLE! BONE BONE BONE!

[JohnD60]

 

Sure, but is it sustainable? You make no mention of how long you have been doing this. Why isn't your skin just going to adapt to the increased tissue volume? Is your plan to continue to increase your weight forever? And you can't replace lost bone, which is the biggest problem with sagging skin over the age of 35. Don't you think it is curious that only 30ish people discover cures for sagging skin, not 50ish people?

 

How do you know bone loss is the biggest issue over age 35? All the graphs I looked at, people usually only have very slight bone loss until they get 45.

 

 

My choice of '35' was arbitrary and off the top of my head.  My choice of 35 was primary driven by the fact that the OP was younger than 35. My broader point was that skin sagging in older people has as much to do with bone loss as it does with a reduction in skin/muscle quality.
 

Edited by JohnD60, 08 November 2014 - 05:48 PM.

[JohnD60]

Speak for yourself :-p this doesn't have to cost anything. I think I realise what you are saying, that this can't replace the exact geometry, but in my case it has filled the volume in a positive way. I can't speak for how it would play out for the whole human species but it's a very useful tool as far as I am concerned.

 

You are the one that needs to speak for himself. All you have is an is a year long subjective n=1 study of a 30/31 year old man.  Thanks for sharing. But you are making guarantees and claims far beyond what you have a basis for doing. An improvement in skin tightness in a 30 year isn't particularly extraordinary, there could have been a multitude of reasons for such a transformation, do an objective n=1 study of a 50 year old, and I with consider it noteworthy.
 

Edited by JohnD60, 08 November 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[diabeticNorm]

Sure, but is it sustainable? You make no mention of how long you have been doing this. Why isn't your skin just going to adapt to the increased tissue volume? Is your plan to continue to increase your weight forever? And you can't replace lost bone, which is the biggest problem with sagging skin over the age of 35. Don't you think it is curious that only 30ish people discover cures for sagging skin, not 50ish people?

How do you know bone loss is the biggest issue over age 35? All the graphs I looked at, people usually only have very slight bone loss until they get 45.

My choice of '35' was arbitrary and off the top of my head. My broader point was that skin sagging in older people has as much to do with bone loss as it does with a reduction in skin/muscle quality.

I would basically agree and say that it has many factors but I would wonder hypothetically would a 21 year old skin adapt to the changing bone structure, much like it does when we lose or gain weight? If so, then restoring the skins ability to contract and shortening muscles may be all that's needed?

[diabeticNorm]

Speak for yourself :-p this doesn't have to cost anything. I think I realise what you are saying, that this can't replace the exact geometry, but in my case it has filled the volume in a positive way. I can't speak for how it would play out for the whole human species but it's a very useful tool as far as I am concerned.

You are the one that needs to speak for himself. All you have is an is a year long subjective n=1 study of a 30/31 year old man. Thanks for sharing. But you are making guarantees and claims far beyond what you have a basis for doing.

I think on reflection you are right, I made it sound like it was a total solution. I think it's a very good tool and worth considering for your situation and definitely could make a big positive difference. It saved my situation. I would have to say this was based not only on my experience but on the experience of those using electrical stimulation for muscle volume increase.

Your welcome btw and I hope it helps you in some way!

[The Ripper]

 

 

Speak for yourself :-p this doesn't have to cost anything. I think I realise what you are saying, that this can't replace the exact geometry, but in my case it has filled the volume in a positive way. I can't speak for how it would play out for the whole human species but it's a very useful tool as far as I am concerned.

You are the one that needs to speak for himself. All you have is an is a year long subjective n=1 study of a 30/31 year old man. Thanks for sharing. But you are making guarantees and claims far beyond what you have a basis for doing.

I think on reflection you are right, I made it sound like it was a total solution. I think it's a very good tool and worth considering for your situation and definitely could make a big positive difference. It saved my situation. I would have to say this was based not only on my experience but on the experience of those using electrical stimulation for muscle volume increase.

Your welcome btw and I hope it helps you in some way!

 

Can you provide any proof whatsoever for your claims? Before and after pictures? How do you know it wasn't something else in your diet? Weight gain? Water retention? What about other people? 

I've browsed facial exercise websites before and could never tell any difference. 
 

[StephCThomp]

dN, I am also confused by the wording of your first post.  Please could you clarify?

 

"...when I started taking beta-alanine...I noticed my face filled out and I looked much younger. ...[This] proved to me that facial exercises definitely work..."

 

How does doing one thing (taking a supplement) prove that another thing (exercise) works?  What did you really mean to say here please? 

 

Did you just take beta-alanine and get facial improvement, or just exercise and get facial improvement, or do both at the same time?

 

Thanks for the clarification.  

[diabeticNorm]

Speak for yourself :-p this doesn't have to cost anything. I think I realise what you are saying, that this can't replace the exact geometry, but in my case it has filled the volume in a positive way. I can't speak for how it would play out for the whole human species but it's a very useful tool as far as I am concerned.

You are the one that needs to speak for himself. All you have is an is a year long subjective n=1 study of a 30/31 year old man. Thanks for sharing. But you are making guarantees and claims far beyond what you have a basis for doing.

I think on reflection you are right, I made it sound like it was a total solution. I think it's a very good tool and worth considering for your situation and definitely could make a big positive difference. It saved my situation. I would have to say this was based not only on my experience but on the experience of those using electrical stimulation for muscle volume increase.

Your welcome btw and I hope it helps you in some way!

Can you provide any proof whatsoever for your claims? Before and after pictures? How do you know it wasn't something else in your diet? Weight gain? Water retention? What about other people?

I've browsed facial exercise websites before and could never tell any difference.

Hi Ripper,

Yes I posted a link to an article in the daily mail relating to a dermatologist called Perricone. He basically states that angelina jolie and other celebrities get the whole apple cheek look or whatever by increasing facial muscle volume and tailoring it. I won't post before and after pictures as I don't want to for personal reasons but hopefully the literature out there on this should help you. You can also know from your own knowledge of muscle mass increase that muscles can increase in volume. I was unaware of just how much facial muscles can increase. I will be interested to see how much can be done using non-beta alanine muscle training. I think it's valuable to have pointed out that it won't restore the exact shape but i think the shape can improve through this method, a lot.

I think it is muscle mass increase because the increase in volume occurs after taking the carnosine. It's known that carnosine turns to alanine and then is reabsorbed to form carnosine again in the muscles. When I take more, there is more volume, when i take less, it appears less. Also there is a corresponding muscle increase in other muscles. It could be water retention? But why should it be? How can you tell the difference? It just looks like muscle gain in other muscles to me.

Yes I agree that facial exercises are a difficult one. Pictures are so difficult to tell and it all depends on lighting etc. In my opinion, and it is just that and can only ever be unless I do a full blown experiment, facial exercises (which can improve shape and supposedly volume if done right) do work. I came to the conclusion after looking at people who did the exercises as noticing how their jaws were so toned even though they were older. Also from anecdotal reports of people who used them and had people independently comment on the loss of "Turkey neck" etc. It's not ideal but it also fits my own knowledge of how muscles behave when trained.

Hope that helps.

Edited by diabeticNorm, 09 November 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[diabeticNorm]

dN, I am also confused by the wording of your first post. Please could you clarify?

"...when I started taking beta-alanine...I noticed my face filled out and I looked much younger. ...[This] proved to me that facial exercises definitely work..."

How does doing one thing (taking a supplement) prove that another thing (exercise) works? What did you really mean to say here please?

Did you just take beta-alanine and get facial improvement, or just exercise and get facial improvement, or do both at the same time?

Thanks for the clarification.

Hi Steph C,

Yes sorry, this was not clear. With increased volume it's more obvious there is a shape change when doing facial exercises. When you don't have much volume, it's not so easy to see.

Facial exercises take longer if you are older btw. Or rather depending on the length of your muscles, mine were pretty long because I had large rapid weight gain in my early twenties. It also depends on your diet and stress levels. If you are really old and worn out it could take one or two years :-|. But usually takes a few months to see that major improvement they say.

Is be careful taking supplements too, follow the muscle building rather than muscle loading route. :-)

[The Ripper]

 

 

 

 

Speak for yourself :-p this doesn't have to cost anything. I think I realise what you are saying, that this can't replace the exact geometry, but in my case it has filled the volume in a positive way. I can't speak for how it would play out for the whole human species but it's a very useful tool as far as I am concerned.

You are the one that needs to speak for himself. All you have is an is a year long subjective n=1 study of a 30/31 year old man. Thanks for sharing. But you are making guarantees and claims far beyond what you have a basis for doing.

I think on reflection you are right, I made it sound like it was a total solution. I think it's a very good tool and worth considering for your situation and definitely could make a big positive difference. It saved my situation. I would have to say this was based not only on my experience but on the experience of those using electrical stimulation for muscle volume increase.

Your welcome btw and I hope it helps you in some way!

Can you provide any proof whatsoever for your claims? Before and after pictures? How do you know it wasn't something else in your diet? Weight gain? Water retention? What about other people?

I've browsed facial exercise websites before and could never tell any difference.

Hi Ripper,

Yes I posted a link to an article in the daily mail relating to a dermatologist called Perricone. He basically states that angelina jolie and other celebrities get the whole apple cheek look or whatever by increasing facial muscle volume and tailoring it. I won't post before and after pictures as I don't want to for personal reasons but hopefully the literature out there on this should help you. You can also know from your own knowledge of muscle mass increase that muscles can increase in volume. I was unaware of just how much facial muscles can increase. I will be interested to see how much can be done using non-beta alanine muscle training. I think it's valuable to have pointed out that it won't restore the exact shape but i think the shape can improve through this method, a lot.

I think it is muscle mass increase because the increase in volume occurs after taking the carnosine. It's known that carnosine turns to alanine and then is reabsorbed to form carnosine again in the muscles. When I take more, there is more volume, when i take less, it appears less. Also there is a corresponding muscle increase in other muscles. It could be water retention? But why should it be? How can you tell the difference? It just looks like muscle gain in other muscles to me.

Yes I agree that facial exercises are a difficult one. Pictures are so difficult to tell and it all depends on lighting etc. In my opinion, and it is just that and can only ever be unless I do a full blown experiment, facial exercises (which can improve shape and supposedly volume if done right) do work. I came to the conclusion after looking at people who did the exercises as noticing how their jaws were so toned even though they were older. Also from anecdotal reports of people who used them and had people independently comment on the loss of "Turkey neck" etc. It's not ideal but it also fits my own knowledge of how muscles behave when trained.

Hope that helps.

 

Jesus Christ I have no words to explain the degree to which I'm face palming.

 >He basically states that angelina jolie and other celebrities get the whole apple cheek look or whatever by increasing facial muscle volume and tailoring it.

No offence but do you know how silly that sounds? Go ahead and touch your cheek. What does it feel like? You will NEVER find me a single before and after that shows a change in malar projection and zygomatic width. NEVER. I will bet my house on that. It does not exist because the malar prominence can not be influenced by 'facial exercise'. 

> I won't post before and after pictures as I don't want to for personal reasons but hopefully the literature out there on this should help you.

There is no 'literature' and you know it. Go talk to any maxillofacial / craniofacial surgeon, any doctor, any medical professional and they'll shatter your delusions on the spot.

 

>You can also know from your own knowledge of muscle mass increase that muscles can increase in volume.

Muscles can hypertrophy in response to resistance training. What is your point? Go on. Touch your malars again. Touch your infraorbital rim. Touch your mandible border. That's right. Squat. Nothing. Zip. Nada.

P.S. Considering most people fail to get decent gains by working out in a gym activating big muscle groups what makes you so sure you can achieve anything using no resistance and tiny muscles? 

Again, you also failed to explain why those on steroids don't see these amazing facial changes you speak of. At best HGH abusers look like neanderthals and too much testosterone gives some enlarged masseters.

 

>I was unaware of just how much facial muscles can increase.

 

I'll get to this rubbish in a bit....

 

>I think it is muscle mass increase because the increase in volume occurs after taking the carnosine. It's known that carnosine turns to alanine and then is reabsorbed to form carnosine again in the muscles. When I take more, there is more volume, when i take less, it appears less. Also there is a corresponding muscle increase in other muscles. It could be water retention? But why should it be? How can you tell the difference? It just looks like muscle gain in other muscles to me.

 

It's fucking carnosine not steroids. Bodybuilding forums would be rife with this shit if you were even half right. They're not.

Do you take creatine? Has your weight changed? How much sodium/salts do you consume? Water? Fats?

Oh, and I forgot...

 

brb using imagination since ABSOLUTELY NO PICS LIKE EVERY OTHER CON ARTIST

 >Yes I agree that facial exercises are a difficult one. Pictures are so difficult to tell and it all depends on lighting etc.

 

Wow, yeah. I thought facial muscles can increase a lot but apparently it doesn't show well in pictures. That's strange because before/after photos of fillers it shows a very clear difference. Lighting seems to make no difference for them. In fact, as long as there is minimal lens distortion the lighting and everything else doesn't matter as the images can be overlayed and compared. Of course, you have no pics, there will never be pics, because there are no changes and it's bullshit.

Which is it? No difference? Or now so little difference that it doesn't even appear in a photo? But I thought Angelina Jolie's cheeks and bones are from her facial muscle LOL. Guess not... 

>I came to the conclusion after looking at people who did the exercises as noticing how their jaws were so toned even though they were older.

Shall I link you photos to a great number of people I can confirm do no such exercises, are older, and have very 'toned' jaws... which I'm guessing means no jowls or something? Of course that wouldn't disprove it in your mind. I mean, how else could one prevent skin sagging right? It's not like skin quality and genes play a role.

 

>Also from anecdotal reports of people who used them and had people independently comment on the loss of "Turkey neck" etc.

Because..... N-N...

N-N-NO

 

NO NO NO

 

NO PICS!

I'll use my imagination again.

>It's not ideal but it also fits my own knowledge of how muscles behave when trained.

Touch your malars again for me.

[diabeticNorm]

Ripper i am not trying to sell you anything, there is no way that I am letting someone who is talking to me like that have pictures of my face. I haven't read your post because it's just getting out of hand and the posts are not about trying to solve this problem anymore. I hope you fix whatever is wrong in your life.

[Clacksberg]

It annoys me when people equate a bit of fat on the face to making people look young or younger, it doesnt. - the eye's themselves and surrounding area is how we pick up on the age of a person in their 30's and up. I,ve seen people get filler's done but it doesnt make them look younger because the eye's say it all - in older people anyway.= lol