59 replies to this topic

[gcurrie]

Ok, I've got one!

If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?

-- Rick

Cannibal: "If we're not supposed to eat people, how come they're made out of meat?"
[tung]

[scottl]

Ok, I've got one!

If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?

-- Rick

Cannibal: "If we're not supposed to eat people, how come they're made out of meat?"
[tung]

Lack of eating people will not impair anyone's health.

Lack of eating...animal protein will impair the health of a significant proportion of the population no matter what the PC crowd thinks--remember PC=denial of reality

[gcurrie]

Lack of eating...animal protein will impair the health of a significant proportion of the population

OK, I'll bite. How will lack of eating animal protein impair the health of a significant portion or the population?

Is this accepted nutritional wisdom or your opinion?

(For the record, I believe that many people today have poor nutritional knowledge. But that is based on anecdotal observation and assumption rather than facts. So your statement is plausible.)

[scottl]

Please see vegetarian thread. It takes too long to explain and I don't wish to type it all out again.

30 second version: there is no one diet best for everyone. Some do better on higher protein diets (think caveman), some on higher carb diets, some on mixed. This is the real world experience of people. Avoiding eating animals for....whatever reason is fine...unless your body has other ideas.

"For the record, I believe that many people today have poor nutritional knowledge"

For the record, I believe that many vegetarians wish to shove their "morally superior diet" down the throat of everyone just as the woman in my signature wishes to impose her wishes on all of us. Allah willing [lol] neither of you will get your way.

[gcurrie]

I assume you're talking about this thread:
http://www.imminst.o...300

And as usual, there was opinion galore and no facts.

Your "experiment" was laughable. To suggest that someone stop eating meat for a week and compare it to normal meat consumption - all that can test is someone's nutritional knowledge or lack of same. Get a real nutritionist to create the successive weeks' menus and you might have something to compare.

By the way, you might want to take that considerable chip off your shoulder. It gets in the way of your clear thinking. Somehow, you have me confused with some sort of PC vegetarian, which I am not - although I only eat seafood as my animal protein source. All I asked you for was some facts, not political statements or personal attacks.

[scottl]

My apologies.

The chip is there because this place is...far too PC for my comfort.

I am a physician and have been working with and advising people for many years. My body and a number of people I know and have worked with thrives much better eating a higherprotein/lower carb diet. That is my experience. If there are no studies...oh well.

There is something called.....metabolic typing. There are several variants one at bloodph.com another by Bill Wolcott at healthexell.com (or soemthing like that). Perhaps these theories explain the experience of myself and others (perhaps not). In any case experience always trumps theory, however nice the theory, and no matter who's it is (including mine).

I didn't feel a nutritionist was necessary as likely many people on the board are capable of creating a veggie diet with sufficient protein.

Oh and FYI: if you believe nutritionists are a source of useful information....well good luck. They will shorten the life of any diabetic significantly.

[gcurrie]

My apologies.

No problem.

I am a physician and have been working with and advising people for many years.  My body and a number of people I know and have worked with thrives much better eating a higherprotein/lower carb diet.  That is my experience.  If there are no studies...oh well.

I totally agree that diet is very personal. I also do not do well with high carbs at all.

There is something called.....metabolic typing.

This looks interesting.

...In any case experience always trumps theory, however nice the theory, and no matter who's it is (including mine).

I would agree. In addition, though, it's best when theory and experience (including experiments or studies) agree. Then we really have something.

I didn't feel a nutritionist was necessary as likely many people on the board are capable of creating a veggie diet with sufficient protein.

Sufficient in the case of an experiment may not be. What we need is *equivalent.* Otherwise the checken breast will always trump the tub of tofu, since the tofu is not as complete a protein source. That is what I meant by nutritional knowledge.

Oh and FYI: if you believe nutritionists are a source of useful information....well good luck.  They will shorten the life of any diabetic significantly.

This is a very binary statement. My mother is a Type 2 diabetic. If you could give me an idea of why nutritionists will shorten the life of any diabetic, I am personally very interested.

[scottl]

"Sufficient in the case of an experiment may not be. What we need is *equivalent.* Otherwise the checken breast will always trump the tub of tofu, since the tofu is not as complete a protein source. That is what I meant by nutritional knowledge.'

Short of protein powder, I don't know that it is possible to get large amounts of protein from a veggie diet (adequate yes, large probably not). For example I not infrequently have two (1/2) chicken breasts for dinner. I feel great eating that (with a bunch of veggies). Not sure that everyone would.

"If you could give me an idea of why nutritionists will shorten the life of any diabetic, I am personally very interested."

Carbs and glycemic index. Look at what the ADA recommended diet is, and what nutritionists recommend. Anyone reading the diet threads here is more aware of carbs and glycemic index that many people who should know better.

[xanadu]

Another good reason to avoid animal products is the fact that most meat animals are given antibiotics and hormones in their feed. This goes into the meat, beef, chicken and so on. I don't have a link handy for you but it's a well known fact. You also have a possibility of picking up an antibiotic resistant bug due to farm animals being a darwinian breeding ground for those diseases. Oh, and last but not least.... mad cow disease.

[scottl]

Another good reason to avoid animal products is the fact that most meat animals are given antibiotics and hormones in their feed. This goes into the meat, beef, chicken and so on. I don't have a link handy for you but it's a well known fact. You also have a possibility of picking up an antibiotic resistant bug due to farm animals being a darwinian breeding ground for those diseases. Oh, and last but not least.... mad cow disease.

I use hormone free antibiotic free beef and chicken (and encourage others to also).

Mad cow is not relevant to chicken and seafood (which is a large part of my intake). Mad cow is...similarly not relevant as the farmers that don't use hormones or antibiotics have practices that basically make it irrelevant.

Why is it that people who eat animals feel no need to tell other people how to eat, but people who don't eat meat....

[ajnast4r]

Why is it that people who eat animals feel no need to tell other people how to eat, but people who don't eat meat....

[wis] [wis] [wis]

[mitkat]

Please see vegetarian thread.  It takes too long to explain and I don't wish to type it all out again.

30 second version: there is no one diet best for everyone.  Some do better on higher protein diets (think caveman), some on higher carb diets, some on mixed.  This is the real world experience of people.  Avoiding eating animals for....whatever reason is fine...unless your body has other ideas.

"For the record, I believe that many people today have poor nutritional knowledge"

For the record, I believe that many vegetarians wish to shove their "morally superior diet" down the throat of everyone just as the woman in my signature wishes to impose her wishes on all of us.  Allah willing  [lol]  neither of you will get your way.

Yeah yeah. I'm tired of people bashing vegetarians as much as meat-chowers are tired of the former's stereotypes they no longer wish to update. I hate even telling "carnies" that I'm a vegetarian, because they get all "OH! Well...WHY is that? Are you anemic?" etc. And not everyone can afford your free-range meats. scottl, you've got to work on your bedside manner there, "Doctor". You're shoving your condescending and typical hyper-critical viewpoint down my throat. I never said a preachy word about being vegetarian, and never do. I didn't ask for your free diet analysis, all I wanted was some info on the Phosphatidyl Serine and my stack. Can you maybe do that, or is this too "PC" for you?

[scottl]

Please see vegetarian thread.  It takes too long to explain and I don't wish to type it all out again.

30 second version: there is no one diet best for everyone.  Some do better on higher protein diets (think caveman), some on higher carb diets, some on mixed.  This is the real world experience of people.  Avoiding eating animals for....whatever reason is fine...unless your body has other ideas.

"For the record, I believe that many people today have poor nutritional knowledge"

For the record, I believe that many vegetarians wish to shove their "morally superior diet" down the throat of everyone just as the woman in my signature wishes to impose her wishes on all of us.  Allah willing  [lol]  neither of you will get your way.

Yeah yeah. I'm tired of people bashing vegetarians as much as meat-chowers are tired of the former's stereotypes they no longer wish to update. I hate even telling "carnies" that I'm a vegetarian, because they get all "OH! Well...WHY is that? Are you anemic?" etc. And not everyone can afford your free-range meats. scottl, you've got to work on your bedside manner there, "Doctor". You're shoving your condescending and typical hyper-critical viewpoint down my throat. I never said a preachy word about being vegetarian, and never do. I didn't ask for your free diet analysis, all I wanted was some info on the Phosphatidyl Serine and my stack. Can you maybe do that, or is this too "PC" for you?

Please show me where I have said anything negative about vegetarians (aside from their trhying to shove their diet down my throat)

[xanadu]

I didn't see anyone saying that meaties shoud stop what they are doing. Several people gave good reasons why eating meat is a bad idea. It's up to the person to make up their own mind based on evidence. It seems that emotions have become involved so further discussion is likely to produce more heat than light. I myself am not a strict vegetarian. I eat a small amount of fish, also some dairy products.

There is another factor to consider besides mad cow, hormones, and antibiotics. What about the pesticides, chem fertilizers and so on used to grow the hay, grain and etc that farm animals eat? It's a well known fact that animals high on the food chain concentrate these things in their tissues. Eating plants is eating low on the food chain. Eating an animal is obviously much higher and brings more contaminants with it. I read somewhere that one pound of beef took something like 50 pounds of food stock to produce. Obviously, there is a potential to get 50 times as much pesticides etc per pound of food eaten when you eat beef. Chicken numbers were much smaller, somewhere around 17 to 1 but still high enough to be worrisome.

[rfarris]

... What about the pesticides, chem fertilizers and so on used to grow the hay, grain and etc that farm animals eat? It's a well known fact that animals high on the food chain concentrate these things in their tissues...

But wouldn't vegetarians be essentially the same as the farm animals? Basically, concentrating pesticides, chem fertilizers and so on in their tissues?

-- Rick

[scottl]

... What about the pesticides, chem fertilizers and so on used to grow the hay, grain and etc that farm animals eat? It's a well known fact that animals high on the food chain concentrate these things in their tissues...

But wouldn't vegetarians be essentially the same as the farm animals? Basically, concentrating pesticides, chem fertilizers and so on in their tissues?

-- Rick

I try and avoid eating vegetarians--the meat is too tough [lol]

[goku]

Eating raw eggs is great for you as long as you don't go crazy. The cholesteral is negliable as long as the rest of your diet isn't cholesteral heavy -- eggs have something which limits the amount cholesteral actually used by your system. But I would recommend switching to organic eggs -- otherwise you're consuming antibiotics -- go to a commercial chicken farm one day and you won't touch eggs or chicken for a long time -- I had nigtmares -- truly horrific.

[xanadu]

... What about the pesticides, chem fertilizers and so on used to grow the hay, grain and etc that farm animals eat? It's a well known fact that animals high on the food chain concentrate these things in their tissues...

But wouldn't vegetarians be essentially the same as the farm animals? Basically, concentrating pesticides, chem fertilizers and so on in their tissues?

-- Rick

All plants, or all that we are likely to encounter, have some pesitcide residues, traces of hormones and other chemicals. This is true even for organicly grown veggies. Hopefully, the organic stuff has less. OK, now my point was not that there was a way to totally avoid this stuff, the idea is to avoid as much as possible.

Going back to the food chain I mentioned, at the bottom are the plants, at the top are the carnivores. If there is lead, or other harmful substances in the environment, the plants will absorb a small amount. Lets say they have 0.1ppm in their tissues. The herbivores eat the plants and concentrate the lead or other nasties in their tissues. They may have 25 times the amount a plant has due to eating plants all their lives or perhaps 2.5ppm. Now, bring in the predators. A predator eats not plants but the animals which have concentrated the lead in their tissues. A predator may have a tissue concentration of 100 or more ppm of lead or other noxious substances from a lifetime of eating animals. We have a choice of living like an herbivore and having the low levels of toxins or choosing to live like a carnivore and having perhaps 20 to 50 times the levels.

If you eat 8 lb of veggies a day vs 4 lb of meat, lets take a look at the comparison. I'm not saying the 8 = 4 exactly but I think there are more calories in meat than most veggies. To produce 4 lb of meat, you will need to use many times that amount of food stock for the animals. Taking chicken as the least harmful meat, though fish would be even better, assuming a 17 to 1 ratio of feed to meat, that means if you eat 4 lb of meat per day you ate the pesticides that can be found in 4 x 17 or about 68lb of chicken food. If it's beef you crave, then it's 4 x 50 = 200lb of hay, grain, grass and so on. So the vegetarian eats 8lb of organic food and gets whatever trace amounts of bad stuff are in 8 lb. The meat eater gets the pesticides in the equivilent of somewhere between 68 and 200lb of plant material. Besides that, you can not know that the beef was raised on organic feed. I never heard of such a thing. The vegetarian can choose to eat organic food.

[rfarris]

Actually, I was just trying to be amusing, but I will point out that your comparison of 8 lb of veggies vs 4 lb of meat, is more like 8 lb of veggies vs 4 oz of meat. I mean, you can't really compare generic veggies vs generic meat, but if you pick out specific food items, compare the amount of each one to provide the same amount of calories.

The other thing I guess you don't know is that there are plenty of sources for beef raised on organic feed. One place you could have a look at it is at Whole Foods.

--Rick

[ajnast4r]

u guys better be knocking back the EGCG.... eating meat with all those cancer causing carinogens...yea....

[xanadu]

rfarris wrote:

"Actually, I was just trying to be amusing, but I will point out that your comparison of 8 lb of veggies vs 4 lb of meat, is more like 8 lb of veggies vs 4 oz of meat. I mean, you can't really compare generic veggies vs generic meat, but if you pick out specific food items, compare the amount of each one to provide the same amount of calories.

The other thing I guess you don't know is that there are plenty of sources for beef raised on organic feed. One place you could have a look at it is at Whole Foods."

Are you still trying to be amusing when you say 8lb of veggies is equivilent to 4oz of meat? Certainly not on the basis of calories. Some veggies have more calories per oz than meat does. I didn't know there were sources of meat raised on organic feed. I bet it's expensive as hell.

The point stands that meat concentrates all the toxins in the environment along with the hormones and other things that may be given to the animals.

[rfarris]

Are you still trying to be amusing when you say 8lb of veggies is equivilent to 4oz of meat? Certainly not on the basis of calories. Some veggies have more calories per oz than meat does.

You're probably right, but why not just pick out a choice in each category (like, say, filet mignon and rice) and we'll look up the caloric density? No need to guess about it or make claims to "some" veggies or "some" meat.

--Rick

[oilfieldpilot]

Scottl
By chance are you also GreatOutdoors in another forum? If not please disregard! Your avatar is the same [glasses]

Anyway,
So how did this thread get so side-tracked
My question is for those who take racetams: What difference do you feel/have from the varieties?


Aside:
Has Anyone Ever seen a VEGAN Centenarian?????

I guess we were born with sharp pointy teeth called canines, and not just bottom back teeth, for a r-e-a-s-o-n...
I much prefer chomping into a big red rare beefsteak over ruminating, anyday!!!


[tung]
ofp

Edited by oilfieldpilot, 16 October 2005 - 05:13 PM.

[mitkat]

scottl,

Are you purposely trying to miss the point? I don't have to show you anything, or prove to you what you've already said. Your attitude is painfully obvious. You have your viewpoint, and as usual, you're being hyper-critical of those who don't share it. I don't see any vegetarians pushing their diets down your throat, I don't know what your pals are like. I'm not doing that, I just don't like your condescending replies.

And like I said before, I won't be one of you transhumanist astronauts blasting off into space in the year 3000. And if that's what it takes to stick to my morals, then that's fine. See, now I actually sound preachy.

[mitkat]

Scottl
By chance are you also GreatOutdoors in another forum? If not please disregard! Your avatar is the same [glasses]

Anyway,
So how did this thread get so side-tracked
My question is for those who take racetams: WHAT difference do you feel/have from the varieties?


ASIDE:
Has Anyone Ever seen a VEGAN Centenarian?????

I guess we were born with sharp pointy teeth called canines, and not just bottom back teeth, for a r-e-a-s-o-n...
I much  prefer chomping into a big red rare beefsteak over ruminating, anyday!!!

[thumb]  [thumb]  [thumb]
[tung]
ofp

Has anyone ever seen a human carnivore's lower intenstines???? Hopefully not. And I don't think being a vegan has even come up in this conversation, has it? That's a diet that most people cannot be healthy and/or intelligent enough to follow and keep up with.

Your teeth argument is flawed. What is the r-e-a-s-o-n for our big, flat molars? You can't enjoy much carcinogenic big red rare beefsteak with those flatties, can ya. [thumb]

[oilfieldpilot]

MittyKitty

BIG "FLAT" MOLARS? [lol] [lol] [lol]
sorry, You are flawed there

Perhaps do a lil' research ...for ex. on the evolution of the Mammoth teeth...quite interesting...and That defines "FLAT MOLARS", and BIG ones at that!

But HUMAN teeth didn't 'evolve' the same...we are not just grass eaters (grazers/ruminants). and are NOT FLAT.
Our molars are designed/evolved for Both meat and vegetables/fruits/nuts,etc. = OMNIvores = m-a-n

Okay then if no 'vegans' live that long , how about any "Vegetarian" Centenarians??????
didn't think so...
Red wine, Red Meat = L-o-n-g-e-v-i-t-y [thumb]


geez, go eat some cheese and lighten up, will ya!

ofp
-with a Heathy colon, btw [thumb]

Edited by oilfieldpilot, 16 October 2005 - 05:16 PM.

[mitkat]

Thanks for S-P-E-L-L-I-N-G it A-L-L out for M-E. It's much easier to read that way.

I don't hold red wine and meat in the same category in ANY standard. Your comment on red meat - are you implying it's the cornerstone to "L-o-n-g-e-v-i-t-y"? Seriously, that makes me giggle. Give me a call when you're a centenarian. Cheese is some good shit, though.

Here's a lil research for ya...I have no interest in mammoth teeth for my own diet/oral topography knowledge. I didn't say we hold the world record for "flattest molars" in the animal kingdom. I said they were flat. I don't know what Y-O-U-R teeth look like, but my molars are pretty damn flat. Maybe you should lay off the ripping and tearing for a while [thumb]

I think we're all aware that humans have evolved as omnivores. There is really no need to debate that. I think you'll find that most people on this board are pretty well educated. I'm a university graduate, and you're definately... something. It should seem pretty B-A-S-I-C. No one, especially me, is stopping you from eating meat. This whole "eat some meat, champ!" attitude so many people hold, even on this board is just getting tired. I have little interest in becoming a centenarian, but I am amazed to see that you know every one of them personally enough to comment on their diets.

I do believe the whole point of this post, way back when was the Phosphatidyl Serine amount in my stack. So thanks for the memories, this is way too off-topic. Thanks! [thumb]

[oilfieldpilot]

...and just one more Huff on that cannabis dooley [lol] and you'll be ready for those prelims!

so...where Does Cannabis fit in your stack? Serious question...
I hear it curbs nausea in cancer/chemo patients.

ofp

-lowly helicopter pilot with geology/surveying degrees...

[mitkat]

yes, one more huff on the cannabis "dooley". that's it. absolutely, cannabis is a HUGE part of my stack, then i eat a tree. you've TOTALLY found me out. besides....prelims for what? sounds like you might need to go back to school, son.

am i supposed to be impressed? can this end now?

i thought all pilots were drunks, anyways.

[purerealm]

what did you mean about the phosphatidylserine?