24 replies to this topic

[JohnDoe999]

After having started with only Vitamin C 1000 mg some 28 years ago, I have slowly added to my regime, which now consists of around 15-20 supplements at the most. I do not take everything daily, but around 10-12 supplements.  ( I cycle some, and others I take only when I - for some reason or another - feel a psychological or physiological need for it ).

 

I took new bloodtests today, but case is I have started to feel that I am maybe tossing money down the drain. I am healthy, and my only concern is "tired/burning" eyes and high IOP. No damage to any nerves yet, though.

 

On the other side I feel low in energy, I am to far on the negative side thought wise, I feel rather "stiff" in some of my joints, and although I look well, I still have my amount of wrinkles. 

 

So, bottom line, I am going to try to ditch most of my supplement for a year, and see if I feel any better than now in a years time, and also see how my blood samples look then.

 

It may be to much to ask, but in a "top 5", which supplements of the following (From my "storage") would you keep on a daily basis

?

 

I am thinking of keeping Vitamin C 4000-5000 mg, Vitamin E mixed 400 IU, Q10 100-120 mg, Omega 3 and L-carnosine 500 MG.

 

Do you agree?

 

This is what I have "in stock", and normally pick from:

 

 

1. Vitamin C time release 1000 mg

2. Vitamin E mixed 

3. Q10

4. Alpha Lipoic Acid

5. ALC

6. L-Carnosine

7. Resveratrol

8. Combination: SOD, Catalase- L-glutathione

9. L-glutathione 

10.Probiotics

11. Digestive Enzymes

12. Omega 3

13. Ginkgo Biloba

14. Vision Complex: Vitamin A, C, Beta-C., Zinc, Selenium, Riboflavin, Copper

15. Medium Dosage Vitamin B complex

16. High Dosage Vitamin B Complex

17. Eyes Alive Vision Complex: Bilberry, Lutein, Astaxanthin, Zeaxanthin

18. Melatonin

19- Homocystein Complex: TMG, + Vitamin B6, Folic Acid, B12, B2 (all high dosage)

20. Vitamin D

21. Blazei Mushroom

22. Mulitvitamin (A lot of stuff, but no high dosage)

23. Fenugreek

24. Zinc

25. NAC

26. DMAE

27. L-Tryptophan

28. PQQ

29. Pycnogenol

30. Bilberry Vision complex: Bilberry, Eyebright Herb, Quercitin, Rutin

31. SAMe

32. TMG

33. L-Tyrosine

 

 

[Wry]

I don't know which of these would be beneficial or detrimental to your eye health, nor am I very knowledgeable about supplements, yet regardless, here is what I suggest for general health: 

 

Definitely:
Low Dose Multi
Acetyl-L-Carnitine: For improved thinking, neuroprotection, energy, etc Yet perhaps in a dosage of 500mg or less as it might lead to elevated TMAO levels in the blood stream if you take higher than that.

L-Carnosine: For anti aging, hopeful thinking, etc
Omega 3: Perhaps as Krill Oil.

 

Perhaps:

Probiotic / Prebiotic

NAC

Melatonin

Vitamin D: Take if multi doesn't contain enough and you don't get out in the sun much.

Resveratrol: Can cause joint pain, has poor bioavailability in humans, can act like estrogen, and in most cases contains high levels of emodin which can wreak havoc on your gut.

 

For aged, perhaps:
CoQ10

DMAE

Digestive Enzymes

 

What I wouldn't likely take save for in a good multi:

Vision Complex: Vitamin A, C, Beta-C., Zinc, Selenium, Riboflavin, Copper

Medium Dosage Vitamin B complex

High Dosage Vitamin B Complex

SAMe

TMG

L-Tyrosine

Zinc

Ginkgo Biloba

L-glutathione: NAC is a precursor to L-glutathione. MSM offers sulfur which contributes to the formation of L-glutathione.

Combination: SOD, Catalase- L-glutathione

Alpha Lipoic Acid

Vitamin C

Vitamin E mixed

 

What I know little to nothing about:

PQQ

Pycnogenol
L-Tryptophan

Fenugreek

Blazei Mushroom

Eyes Alive Vision Complex: Bilberry, Lutein, Astaxanthin, Zeaxanthin

Bilberry Vision complex: Bilberry, Eyebright Herb, Quercetin, Rutin

 

What I suggest adding:

Green Tea capsules

Enriched krill oil with astaxanthin from Nutrigold

RAW Green Super Food
MSM: Helps with joint pain among other things

 

There's definitely a few things on your list that can make you feel lethargic.

 

After you create a new list of supplements that you will take, it will help if you figure out what goes best with what and when. For instances, green tea can decrease the absorption of other ingredients however green tea is well absorbed with fish oil.

Edited by Wry, 16 February 2015 - 10:51 PM.

[JohnDoe999]

I don't know which of these would be beneficial or detrimental to your eye health, nor am I very knowledgeable about supplements, yet regardless, here is what I suggest for general health: 

 

Definitely:
Low Dose Multi
Acetyl-L-Carnitine: For improved thinking, neuroprotection, energy, etc Yet perhaps in a dosage of 500mg or less as it might lead to elevated TMAO levels in the blood stream if you take higher than that.

L-Carnosine: For anti aging, hopeful thinking, etc
Omega 3: Perhaps as Krill Oil.

 

Perhaps:

Probiotic / Prebiotic

NAC

Melatonin

Vitamin D: Take if multi doesn't contain enough and you don't get out in the sun much.

Resveratrol: Can cause joint pain, has poor bioavailability in humans, can act like estrogen, and in most cases contains high levels of emodin which can wreak havoc on your gut.

 

For aged, perhaps:
CoQ10

DMAE

Digestive Enzymes

 

What I wouldn't likely take save for in a good multi:

Vision Complex: Vitamin A, C, Beta-C., Zinc, Selenium, Riboflavin, Copper

Medium Dosage Vitamin B complex

High Dosage Vitamin B Complex

SAMe

TMG

L-Tyrosine

Zinc

Ginkgo Biloba

L-glutathione: NAC is a precursor to L-glutathione. MSM offers sulfur which contributes to the formation of L-glutathione.

Combination: SOD, Catalase- L-glutathione

Alpha Lipoic Acid

Vitamin C

Vitamin E mixed

 

What I know little to nothing about:

PQQ

Pycnogenol
L-Tryptophan

Fenugreek

Blazei Mushroom

Eyes Alive Vision Complex: Bilberry, Lutein, Astaxanthin, Zeaxanthin

Bilberry Vision complex: Bilberry, Eyebright Herb, Quercetin, Rutin

 

What I suggest adding:

Green Tea capsules

Enriched krill oil with astaxanthin from Nutrigold

RAW Green Super Food
MSM: Helps with joint pain among other things

 

There's definitely a few things on your list that can make you feel lethargic.

 

After you create a new list of supplements that you will take, it will help if you figure out what goes best with what and when. For instances, green tea can decrease the absorption of other ingredients however green tea is well absorbed with fish oil.

 

Thanks a lot, Wry!!

 

"There's definitely a few things on your list that can make you feel lethargic."

 

What supplements were your particularly thinking about ? 

[Wry]

These can make you feel fatigued or sedated:

Vitamin C: In excess

Ginkgo Biloba: Great sleep aid

Vitamin B6- Pyridoxine

Vitamin E

Melatonin: Obviously

 

As for anything else I can't say without investigating further. Needless to say, there are some unpleasant side effects associated with overdosing nutrients, so you should be careful.

[niner]

JohnDoe, Wry's advice is pretty good, imho.  Are you seeing any improvement on your IOP from the pycnogenol and billberry?  I used to have high IOP, until a couple years ago when I had a laser iridotomy.  Boom, problem solved.  Quick, painless, no downtime and covered by insurance.  Ask your ophthalmologist if you're a candidate. 

 

The tired, burning eye problem is likely an allergic reaction, probably to typical environmental antigens like any of: pollen, dust mites, mold, animal dander, etc.  There are eye drops you could use; I'd ask the ophthalmologist.

 

If I had to cut my batch of supplements down to only one, it would be c60 olive oil.   You might want to check it out; it might make your eyes feel better by virtue of mast cell stabilization, though that's not its primary effect.

[Wry]

If I had to cut my batch of supplements down to only one, it would be c60 olive oil. 

 

It has been a couple years since I have heard anything about c60 with olive oil. When I first heard of it I bought the hype and decided to take it, After a few weeks of taking it I did more research and I became sceptical as to its safety and benefits. In the end I ceased taking it.

 

As I see it, the benefits can be attributed to olive oil + antioxidant combo, and that buckminsterfullerene just happens to be an antioxidant that can enter the mitochondria and other tricky places. Olive oil being very beneficial in it's own right.

 

Interestingly enough, the powerful antioxidant astaxanthin (which can be found in krill oil) also supports eye health and protects the mitochondria. As both antioxidant combos appear functionally similar, I'm curious as to which is better. c60 with olive oil or astaxanthin with krill oil?

Edited by Wry, 18 February 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

C60 by a landslide imo

 

[Wry]

C60 by a landslide imo

 

Aftering looking into c60 a bit more it does appear to have unique properties that astaxanthin lacks. It also appears to be slightly genotoxic.

 

Additional information concerning resveratrol:

 

Resveratrol derived from grape skin inhibits the aromatase enzyme, which is responsible for the conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

 

"Resveratrol interacts with estrogen receptor-β to inhibit cell replicative growth and enhance stress resistance by upregulating mitochondrial superoxide dismutase."

 

"Resveratrol has been shown to inhibit estradiol by binding to the estrogen receptors in vitro and activate the transcription reporter cells that are characteristic of the estrogen response"

 

Because resveratrol lowers estrogen it can lead to joint pain. 

[niner]

 

C60 by a landslide imo

 

Aftering looking into c60 a bit more it does appear to have unique properties that astaxanthin lacks. It also appears to be slightly genotoxic.

 

It definitely does things that astaxanthin doesn't do.  Pretty important things, at that.  It's not at all genotoxic.  You probably got that impression from looking at experiments (most likely in vitro) done with aggregated c60, which is very different from c60oo.   All of the toxic or damaging responses seem to come from aggregates, often photo-activated.  C60oo is a molecular species.  I've been following the compound for over two years, and have yet to hear a reliable report of a significant adverse event.  That's a pretty good record.

[Gerrans]

There is always the nagging feeling, isn't there, that with supplement stacks one might be, as you say, chucking money down the drain. I wanted to cut down on my expenditure, and I did it in the following way. I decided to take the same supplements, but every other day. After three months of this, in which I felt no different, I then switched to taking them every three days. I still feel no different, so, if anything, this confirms the suspicion that the supplements might not be doing anything. On the other hand, if they are doing something, it means that they can do it with lesser doses. One is always nervous to give up supplements that one believes in, but at least with this method, I know that I am unlikely to develop any deficencies, and that my body will not be without some benefit, even if much less. Anyway, I can tell you that the saving in money is considerable, as tubs of expensive supplements now last me a very long time.

 

It may be, as some people say, that supplements do no good at all to a healthy person. I eat clean, and this may give me all the nutrition I need, anyway. One thing I have done is to increase the amount of herbs and spices I eat. From a certain point of view, these nutritional powerhouses can be said to be like little vitamin supplements in themselves, and yet they are not very expensive at all. A very good way to include them in food, I find, is in sauces.

Edited by Gerrans, 18 February 2015 - 11:05 PM.

[niner]

There is always the nagging feeling, isn't there, that with supplement stacks one might be, as you say, chucking money down the drain. I wanted to cut down on my expenditure, and I did it in the following way. I decided to take the same supplements, but every other day. After three months of this, in which I felt no different, I then switched to taking them every three days. I still feel no different, so, if anything, this confirms the suspicion that the supplements might not be doing anything. On the other hand, if they are doing something, it means that they can do it with lesser doses. One is always nervous to give up supplements that one believes in, but at least with this method, I know that I am unlikely to develop any deficencies, and that my body will not be without some benefit, even if much less. Anyway, I can tell you that the saving in money is considerable, as tubs of expensive supplements now last me a very long time.

 

It may be, as some people say, that supplements do no good at all to a healthy person. I eat clean, and this may give me all the nutrition I need, anyway. One thing I have done is to increase the amount of herbs and spices I eat. From a certain point of view, these nutritional powerhouses can be said to be like little vitamin supplements in themselves, and yet they are not very expensive at all. A very good way to include them in food, I find, is in sauces.

 

There are some supplements we take because we want to feel different, but some supplements are used to keep us feeling the way we already feel, presumably good.   I don't take K2 to make me feel any different; I take it to reduce the odds of a stroke down the road.  For supplements like that, the fact that you don't feel different when you stop taking them doesn't mean they weren't working.  With a great diet, you can probably get away with no supplements, but there are some things that I have a hard time getting enough of if I don't either supplement or eat weird foods just for a specific micronutrient, which is kind of like supplementing anyway but more hassle and maybe more expensive.

[cuprous]

That's a huge stack and you'd need to dedicate pretty much all your time to detangling what interacts with what in the context of your stack nevermind what affects your particular conditions.  In short -- I don't see it being worth it and you're wise to cut down.  

 

I know this isn't what you asked but.. considering they are cheap and have a decent safety profile .. consider adding a low-dose enteric coated aspirin and some magnesium.  The latter might help with your IOP and the former has myriad beneficial effects that I feel are only reluctantly prescribed by the for-profit medical industry -- but, again, I'm certainly not here to add to your stack.

 

As niner posted, c60oo has been a remarkable substance for many though, of course, do your own research.

 

SAMe is a wonder supplement for some and a nightmare for others.. 

 

Above all - keep a journal with what you took when and how you feel that day + other life events.

[timar]

There are some supplements we take because we want to feel different, but some supplements are used to keep us feeling the way we already feel, presumably good.   I don't take K2 to make me feel any different; I take it to reduce the odds of a stroke down the road.  For supplements like that, the fact that you don't feel different when you stop taking them doesn't mean they weren't working.  With a great diet, you can probably get away with no supplements, but there are some things that I have a hard time getting enough of if I don't either supplement or eat weird foods just for a specific micronutrient, which is kind of like supplementing anyway but more hassle and maybe more expensive.

 

Spot on! People here often seem to forget that not all supplements are nootropics, nor should we expect them to be (sometimes I think nootropocity would be a more suitable name for this forum ). A decent multivitamin/mineral, probably additional magnesium, Vitamin K2, D3 and low-dose fish oil are worth taking for their preventive potential, not because they make you feel any better in the short term. They are safe and dirt-cheap as well, so they have an extremely favorable risk/benefit, respectively cost/benefit ratio. In fact, it is perfectly reasonable to expect from well-nourished people not to feel any difference when taking such basic micronutrient supplements, as we have evolved mechanisms to priorize short-term health and functioning over long-term health if a micronutrient isn't available in optimum amounts. Bruce Ames came up with this hypothesis called Triage Theory and since then several such mechanisms, i.e. for vitamin K and selenium, have been identified. He recenty gave an interview to Rhonda Patrick, explaining the basics of his theory and why he thinks we should definitely not "stop wasting money on vitamin and mineral supplements". It is a long but very worthwhile interview:

 

Edited by timar, 19 February 2015 - 09:39 AM.

[Gerrans]

 

There is always the nagging feeling, isn't there, that with supplement stacks one might be, as you say, chucking money down the drain. I wanted to cut down on my expenditure, and I did it in the following way. I decided to take the same supplements, but every other day. After three months of this, in which I felt no different, I then switched to taking them every three days. I still feel no different, so, if anything, this confirms the suspicion that the supplements might not be doing anything. On the other hand, if they are doing something, it means that they can do it with lesser doses. One is always nervous to give up supplements that one believes in, but at least with this method, I know that I am unlikely to develop any deficencies, and that my body will not be without some benefit, even if much less. Anyway, I can tell you that the saving in money is considerable, as tubs of expensive supplements now last me a very long time.

 

It may be, as some people say, that supplements do no good at all to a healthy person. I eat clean, and this may give me all the nutrition I need, anyway. One thing I have done is to increase the amount of herbs and spices I eat. From a certain point of view, these nutritional powerhouses can be said to be like little vitamin supplements in themselves, and yet they are not very expensive at all. A very good way to include them in food, I find, is in sauces.

 

There are some supplements we take because we want to feel different, but some supplements are used to keep us feeling the way we already feel, presumably good.   I don't take K2 to make me feel any different; I take it to reduce the odds of a stroke down the road.  For supplements like that, the fact that you don't feel different when you stop taking them doesn't mean they weren't working.  With a great diet, you can probably get away with no supplements, but there are some things that I have a hard time getting enough of if I don't either supplement or eat weird foods just for a specific micronutrient, which is kind of like supplementing anyway but more hassle and maybe more expensive.

 

I do agree with this. For example, I still take Vitamin K (and other things like CoQ10, Alpha Lipoic Acid that do not make you feel any different) every three days, but who am I to say how much of these I need? Maybe all we need to do is prevent a deficiency of benevolent factors. Vitamin K does not all disperse immediately, as far as I understand. I continue to take magnesium every day, because I am convinced both that I feel better on it and that levels of it are best topped up regularly.

 

Ideally one would take all the beneficial nutrients. But not everyone can afford them, and a reduced intake needs to be planned thoughtfully, so that one does not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Edited by Gerrans, 19 February 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[Gerrans]

 

There are some supplements we take because we want to feel different, but some supplements are used to keep us feeling the way we already feel, presumably good.   I don't take K2 to make me feel any different; I take it to reduce the odds of a stroke down the road.  For supplements like that, the fact that you don't feel different when you stop taking them doesn't mean they weren't working.  With a great diet, you can probably get away with no supplements, but there are some things that I have a hard time getting enough of if I don't either supplement or eat weird foods just for a specific micronutrient, which is kind of like supplementing anyway but more hassle and maybe more expensive.

 

Spot on! People here often seem to forget that not all supplements are nootropics, nor should we expect them to be (sometimes I think nootropocity would be a more suitable name for this forum ). A decent multivitamin/mineral, probably additional magnesium, Vitamin K2, D3 and low-dose fish oil are worth taking for their preventive potential, not because they make you feel any better in the short term. They are safe and dirt-cheap as well, so they have an extremely favorable risk/benefit, respectively cost/benefit ratio. In fact, it is perfectly reasonable to expect from well-nourished people not to feel any difference when taking such basic micronutrient supplements, as we have evolved mechanisms to priorize short-term health and functioning over long-term health if a micronutrient isn't available in optimum amounts. Bruce Ames came up with this hypothesis called Triage Theory and since then several such mechanisms, i.e. for vitamin K and selenium, have been identified. He recenty gave an interview to Rhonda Patrick, explaining the basics of his theory and why he thinks we should definitely not "stop wasting money on vitamin and mineral supplements". It is a long but very worthwhile interview:

 

 

 

Your point is very sound. But do not assume that someone who cuts down on vitamins is doing so because they did not make them feel any different. I only mentioned that cutting down on vitamins did not make me feel any different in order to get that out of the way. Cutting magnesium does make me feel different, and so that goes uncut, as a priority. The same with certain things I take for my kidney issue.

 

But there is a larger point about things such as fish oil, Vitamin D, etc., which is the question of how much do we need, as opposed to how much might produce super health. These are two different things to me, and if one is going to cut down on vitamins, etc., one should start by doing so in such a way as to at least avoid deficiencies. The big mistake would be to say, "Right, I am giving up all supplements". I am sure someone could quote papers to the contrary, but in my opinion such things as Vitamin D and the essential fats that come in fish oil might be considered as necessary only to avoid deficiency. A diet rich in good foods might mean one does not have to glug supplements heavily, because the food will contain the same sort of things provided, often in unnecessarily concentrated forms, in supplements.

 

I do not believe in super health achieved through supplements. To me, the most supplements can do for a well person is help them avoid deficiencies. One cannot get a better brain, better skin, or whatever, by taking more and more fish oil, Vitamin D, or whatever, in my opinion. Given one can afford it, I am sure it is prudent to keep oneself as fully nutrified as possible. But this might be like having lots of money in the bank, or petrol in the tank: it stops you worrying about going short, which is psychologically reassuring--but still, you can get along with smaller amounts if you have to, and your life feels just the same.

 

The psychology of supplements is something that interests me, because I am quite sure a lot of what I have taken over the years has been done to reassure me mentally rather than because I know it has made any difference. I am not sure reading science papers has helped, because it has led me to take more and more things "just in case". And of course the supplement industry preys upon our natural tendency to worry conscientiously about health.
 

Edited by Gerrans, 19 February 2015 - 01:05 PM.

[JohnDoe999]

To be honest, the only supplement of all supplements in my list which I can say that has actually given me some "felt" effect, i vitamin C. If I take 3-4000 mg after drinking alcohol, I feel perfectly well in the morning. Also; if I take 4000-10000 mg when my throat is beginning to feel soar, it often stops further development.

 

"Energy" supplements have given me nothing. Q10 is touted as an energygiving supplement, but it has no effect on me. High dosage vitamin B vitamins is also recommended for energy. Gives me absolutely nothing more energy.

 

In fact, the ONLY "supplement" which has given me energy is the now illegal Ma Huang/Ephedrine, which I used when I was training. It made me feel very alert, and my mental and physical capacity was very high. I felt very good, and I did not experience any sideeffects, 

but - of course - the list of possible sideeffects are long, and I have not used this substance for years.

 

 

[Wry]

To be honest, the only supplement of all supplements in my list which I can say that has actually given me some "felt" effect, i vitamin C. If I take 3-4000 mg after drinking alcohol, I feel perfectly well in the morning. Also; if I take 4000-10000 mg when my throat is beginning to feel soar, it often stops further development.

 

NAC is great for hangovers by increasing glutathione. B-vitamins are also great because they are needed to help remove alcohol from your body. Magnesium is yet another nutrient that gets depleted by alcohol. It is best to take these supplements thirty minutes before you drink.

Edited by Wry, 20 February 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[JohnDoe999]

 

There are some supplements we take because we want to feel different, but some supplements are used to keep us feeling the way we already feel, presumably good.   I don't take K2 to make me feel any different; I take it to reduce the odds of a stroke down the road.  For supplements like that, the fact that you don't feel different when you stop taking them doesn't mean they weren't working.  With a great diet, you can probably get away with no supplements, but there are some things that I have a hard time getting enough of if I don't either supplement or eat weird foods just for a specific micronutrient, which is kind of like supplementing anyway but more hassle and maybe more expensive.

 

Spot on! People here often seem to forget that not all supplements are nootropics, nor should we expect them to be (sometimes I think nootropocity would be a more suitable name for this forum ). A decent multivitamin/mineral, probably additional magnesium, Vitamin K2, D3 and low-dose fish oil are worth taking for their preventive potential, not because they make you feel any better in the short term. They are safe and dirt-cheap as well, so they have an extremely favorable risk/benefit, respectively cost/benefit ratio. In fact, it is perfectly reasonable to expect from well-nourished people not to feel any difference when taking such basic micronutrient supplements, as we have evolved mechanisms to priorize short-term health and functioning over long-term health if a micronutrient isn't available in optimum amounts. Bruce Ames came up with this hypothesis called Triage Theory and since then several such mechanisms, i.e. for vitamin K and selenium, have been identified. He recenty gave an interview to Rhonda Patrick, explaining the basics of his theory and why he thinks we should definitely not "stop wasting money on vitamin and mineral supplements". It is a long but very worthwhile interview:

 

 

 

Thanks for this interesting video. I hadn't heard about this theory before. As I understand, this theory applies to essential vitamins and minerals. 

In your opinion, can this theory also be extended to SAMe, TMG, L-glutatihone, Catalase, Superoxide Dismutase, NAC etc?

 I.e. can situations occur where the body - if deficient in any of the above - prioritize short term survival instead of longevity, and that it thus also could be wise to supplement with l-glutathione, tmg, same etc? 


 

[niner]

Thanks for this interesting video. I hadn't heard about this theory before. As I understand, this theory applies to essential vitamins and minerals. 
In your opinion, can this theory also be extended to SAMe, TMG, L-glutatihone, Catalase, Superoxide Dismutase, NAC etc?
 I.e. can situations occur where the body - if deficient in any of the above - prioritize short term survival instead of longevity, and that it thus also could be wise to supplement with l-glutathione, tmg, same etc?

 

I don't think that the same logic holds for things like this, most of which can be synthesized by the body, as compared to essential micronutrients.  I don't think these are things that everyone should supplement, but there might be cases where they meet a particular medical need.

[JohnDoe999]

Thanks, niner. Based on what I have been reading , the body seriously down regulates production of enzymes and hormones after you reach 40. I.e lower and lower production until you eventually dies. It seems to think that since you have gone over your best reproductive age you should basically prepare to die some decades ahead. Based on this supplements with enzymes and hormones could be considered wise, since they counteract the downregulation. According to this theory. Any thoughts on this?

[timar]

Ideally one would take all the beneficial nutrients. But not everyone can afford them, and a reduced intake needs to be planned thoughtfully, so that one does not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

As I've said:a decent muti, some additional magnesium, vitamins D3, K2 and fish oil and you are covered. That's about 10 cents for the multi (Two-per-Day 1/2 dose), 10 cents for the fish oil (600 mg EPA/DHA) and 5 cents each for the D3/K2 (one serving of Thorne's D3/K2 liquid) and magnesium (a citrate capsule). Most poeple should be able to affort 30 cents per day... How many cups of coffee do you get for 30 cents?

 

But there is a larger point about things such as fish oil, Vitamin D, etc., which is the question of how much do we need, as opposed to how much might produce super health. These are two different things to me, and if one is going to cut down on vitamins, etc., one should start by doing so in such a way as to at least avoid deficiencies. The big mistake would be to say, "Right, I am giving up all supplements". I am sure someone could quote papers to the contrary, but in my opinion such things as Vitamin D and the essential fats that come in fish oil might be considered as necessary only to avoid deficiency. A diet rich in good foods might mean one does not have to glug supplements heavily, because the food will contain the same sort of things provided, often in unnecessarily concentrated forms, in supplements.

 

Those questions can and have been answered, as you should know - in this forum and by reputable institutions such as the Linus Pauling Institute. Otherwise there would be no bsis for me to give such recommendations. I agree that diet is paramount and vastly more important than supplements, but that doesn't mean that eating a good diet makes supplements dispensable. Sometimes, concentrated forms of micronutrients are extremely useful: you will never get enough vitamin D from the diet (and very likely not from the sun either) and unless you eat fatty fish several times a week, you won't get an optimum amount of EPA and DHA. In both cases, the "unnecessarilyconcentrated form is actually quite useful. In the case of vitamin D, it is actually the only way to maintain an adequate blood level without regular tanning, which leads to accelerated skin-aging. In the case of fish oil, it avoids most of the contaminants in fish and is sourced from more sustainable species or even algea if you're willing to pay the premium.

 

Thanks for this interesting video. I hadn't heard about this theory before. As I understand, this theory applies to essential vitamins and minerals. 

In your opinion, can this theory also be extended to SAMe, TMG, L-glutatihone, Catalase, Superoxide Dismutase, NAC etc?

 I.e. can situations occur where the body - if deficient in any of the above - prioritize short term survival instead of longevity, and that it thus also could be wise to supplement with l-glutathione, tmg, same etc?

 

No, I agree with niner here. Those are not micronutrients we need to get from the diet in order to survive and maintain our health, so it is very unlikely that any triage mechanisms exists for those compounds (those mechanisms have evolved to deal with common micronutrient shortages). However, micronutrient deficiencies can certainly lead to secondary deficiencies in those metabolites. E.g. tryptophan deficiency can lead to SAMe deficiency, copper deficiency can lead to SOD deficiency and so on.

 

Of course there may be individual genetic mutations, e.g. defective enzymes, that lead to functional deficencies in such metabolites, producing symptoms that respond favorably to supplementation. But that is an entirely different question.

[timar]

Thanks, niner. Based on what I have been reading , the body seriously down regulates production of enzymes and hormones after you reach 40. I.e lower and lower production until you eventually dies. It seems to think that since you have gone over your best reproductive age you should basically prepare to die some decades ahead. Based on this supplements with enzymes and hormones could be considered wise, since they counteract the downregulation. According to this theory. Any thoughts on this?

 

In general, this theory makes a lot of sense. But unfortunately, it is infinitely more complicated than this. Aging can be understood as a complex epigenetic shift - either stochastical in nature, or following a programmed pattern. Declining levels of certain enzymes and hormones are only the "hardware" expression of what's going on with your epigenetic "software", although such an analogy is of course misleading in physiology, as life is a constant interaction or feedback process where expressed genes in turn have an effect on gene expression and so on. Hence, most attempts to slow down aging by restoring youthful levels of certain hormones or enzymes, have shown little success, as they only address some of the consequences, but not the causative factors of aging. The most promising intervention so far, which may come closest to addressing a causative factor, is the restoration of NAD by high-dose niacin or nicotinamide riboside.

Edited by timar, 21 February 2015 - 10:40 AM.

[Gerrans]

 

Those questions can and have been answered, as you should know - in this forum and by reputable institutions such as the Linus Pauling Institute. Otherwise there would be no bsis for me to give such recommendations. I agree that diet is paramount and vastly more important than supplements, but that doesn't mean that eating a good diet makes supplements dispensable. Sometimes, concentrated forms of micronutrients are extremely useful: you will never get enough vitamin D from the diet (and very likely not from the sun either) and unless you eat fatty fish several times a week, you won't get an optimum amount of EPA and DHA. In both cases, the "unnecessarilyconcentrated form is actually quite useful. In the case of vitamin D, it is actually the only way to maintain an adequate blood level without regular tanning, which leads to accelerated skin-aging. In the case of fish oil, it avoids most of the contaminants in fish and is sourced from more sustainable species or even algea if you're willing to pay the premium.

 

 

I agree with your basic recipe for supplements, and I take these basics myself. But I adopt a different view from you on certain details. The literature on fish oil is very varied; and I am convinced that large amounts are not necessary. In my opinion, if EPA and DHA were needed in large doses the body would be able to make them. I believe they are essential in small amounts, no more. I also believe the body could make more EPA from fat in nuts, for example, if it had to. The conversion rate may usually be negligible because there is no need to create emergency supplies. Does one find EPA and DHA deficiencies in vegetarians, Hindus, etc? If so, what are the consequences for their brain power, lifespan, etc?

 

As far as Vitamin D is concerned, I take it in the winter and not the summer. I disagree with you that the sun is not to be relied upon without letting it age the skin. One needs to spend relatively short amounts of time in the sun in order to create adequate Vitamin D, from what I have read.

 

The difference I have with many on this site is a philosophical one, because I do not believe in super health. I believe the best the body can reach is good health, which it can achieve straightforwardly if we treat it to the right foods and exercise. Supplements seem a wise precaution, but I regard them only as food. Chasing super cognition, super physique, or super-longevity is fool's gold, as far as I am concerned. And, no, these days I am not prepared to pay the premium for alchemy in a bottle.

Edited by Gerrans, 21 February 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[timar]

I agree with your basic recipe for supplements, and I take these basics myself. But I take a different line from you on certain details. The literature on fish oil is very varied; and I am convinced that large amounts are not necessary. In my opinion, if EPA and DHA were needed in large amounts the body would be able to make them. I believe they are essential in small amounts, no more. I also believe the body could make more EPA from fats in nuts, for example, if it had to. The conversion rate may usually be negligible because there is no need to create emergency supplies.

 

As far as Vitamin D is concerned, I take it in the winter and not the summer. I disagree with you that the sun is not to be relied upon without letting it age the skin. One needs to spend relatively short amounts of time in the sun in order to create adequate Vitamin D, from what I have read.

 

The difference I have with many on this site is a philosophical one, because I do not believe in super health. I believe the best the body can reach is good health, which it can achieve straightforwardly if we treat it to the right foods and exercise. Supplements seem a wise precaution, but I regard them only as food. Chasing super cognition, super physique, or longevity is fool's gold, as far as I am concerned. And, no, these days I am not prepared to pay the premium for alchemy in a bottle.

 

Well, I just said that those questions can be answered, not that that there is a single, definitive answer to them. So of course there is room for different opinions on certain miconutrients. One has always be careful to define "essential" vs. "optimal". I think there is compelling evidence - ecologic and epidemiologic as well as causal - for beneficial effects of an amount of EPA and DHA well above the minimum requirement, and this amount is the AHA-recommended 1 g/day, or just above the median intake of a large Japanese cohort (which btw. still found significant cardioprotective effects for an intake above the median).

 

With vitamin D it's a bit of a trade-off. I also get most of my vitamin D from the sun in the summer months. I enjoy being out in the sun and I certainly don't mind a little bit of skin aging (also I think my diet rich in carotenoids confers a reasonable amount of protection), but with tanning beds it is a different story, as they usually have a very high UV-A/UV-B ratio and hence produce relatively little vitamin D while still aging your skin.

 

I also pretty much agree with your views on health and longevity - although I also try to keep an open mind for what may be on the horizon...

 

 

 

Edited by timar, 21 February 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[albedo]

 

Thanks, niner. Based on what I have been reading , the body seriously down regulates production of enzymes and hormones after you reach 40. I.e lower and lower production until you eventually dies. It seems to think that since you have gone over your best reproductive age you should basically prepare to die some decades ahead. Based on this supplements with enzymes and hormones could be considered wise, since they counteract the downregulation. According to this theory. Any thoughts on this?

 

......... Hence, most attempts to slow down aging by restoring youthful levels of certain hormones or enzymes, have shown little success, as they only address some of the consequences, but not the causative factors of aging. The most promising intervention so far, which may come closest to addressing a causative factor, is the restoration of NAD by high-dose niacin or nicotinamide riboside.

 

Thank you for the interesting video and posts. I stand very much with you on this. I just wonder, with respect to the earlier point of "feeling vs not-feeling something" with some of the supplements: is there some evidence of people feeling differently, and in particular more energetic, using NR? I am not using it yet and watching a bit on this Forum first to know more before introducing it (and maybe cut on others ..)

Edited by albedo, 05 March 2015 - 03:19 PM.