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Overthinking Radical Life Extension


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#1 reason

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 11:11 AM


Some people spent a fair amount of time debating philosophical points on what it would be like to live for centuries or longer, a prospect that will become an actual possibility before the end of the century, enabled by the development of rejuvenation biotechnologies. There is nothing wrong with that as a hobby, but the most disconnected, ridiculous arguments against a long life span have a way of finding their way back into discussions over today's funding for aging research. Even the polemics in favor of radical life extension drift away into points that have little to do with day to day experiences of life, such as this one in which the author considers that aging into different opinions and ideals a century from now is actually undesirable and a viable argument in favor of dying instead.

Yet that prospect is hardly terrible; we are all living with it comfortably already, after all. No-one really expects to be exactly the same person twenty years from now, let alone hundreds. Life is change and motion. The best argument for radical life extension via the medical control of degenerative aging is the simple one: that today we'd like to be alive and active tomorrow, and that was the state of things in all of our past days.

In the future it is likely that advances in medicine will grant us the opportunity to prevent the process of ageing. The question of whether eternal life would be a good thing will then be of the utmost practical importance to humanity. In this essay, I claim that it would be. We need to begin by working out our answer to Lucretius' view that death is not a bad thing. Put another way, we first need to find out what it is that makes us think life is valuable and worth living, and then we can see if the beliefs we end up committed to in light of our answer to this question also commit us to believing that eternal life would be desirable.

The Lucretian shifts the scope of the argument to consideration of whether death is a bad thing for the person who dies. However, this separation of the interests and happiness of persons who have close relationships is problematic. While others conclude Lucretius is wrong merely because there must be at least something valuable in life, I want to draw attention to a specific good that I believe is, and we generally agree to be, valuable, namely having positive personal relationships with others. In arguing that death is not a bad thing or not a bad thing for the person who dies, Lucretius is forgetting that death is what all too often robs us of the opportunity of creating, continuing, and/or developing further, positive relationships with others.

If my body lived for another 200 years, but my beliefs, aims, and way of living were utterly different from what they are now by the end, would it really be me that was still alive? It would be extremely difficult to maintain one's personal identity, understood this way, over a long time. Other authors doubt that such a psychologically disjointed life, with mere bodily and no personal continuity, is desirable. In response, I suggest applying the idea that relationships with others are central to the meaning of life to the problem of personal identity. Though the existence of these sources may be finite, their influence need not be. While it would be difficult to keep these influences in mind as time passed, an immortal person could take measures to actively remind themselves of them in writing, visually (with photos etc.) or memory if she showed sufficient discipline.

Another concern about the prospect of immortality is that it may become boring and therefore meaningless. What pursuits could be so interesting they would never get boring? I do not think the dismissal of intellectual contemplation as a candidate is convincing. Further, we should not ignore that as time passes, radically new pursuits (and relationships) will become available that, at that present time, we may have no way of conceptualizing (just as a caveman would scarcely have been able to conceptualize a video game). Further, some pleasures do not have diminishing marginal returns, such as the enjoyment of fine food. This point can, again, be made more convincing if we consider the element of social relationships. It is no coincidence that a recurrent and problematic question that people frequently raise during discussion of this topic is whether one's loved ones would be immortal too. Eating nice food might eventually get boring, but would spending time enjoying life with loved ones?

Link: http://blog.practica...fionn-odonovan/


View the full article at FightAging

#2 GhostBuster

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 12:50 PM

This sounds like mystifying relationships, as if  they were bottomless in their deepfullness. The way I see them, the deepier you get, the more dirt you see. People are quite selfish, borderline psychopaths or protopsychopaths. I guess there is a distant possible that human relationship are "deep" in a condition that spiritual reality exist. But in that case you don't need to worry about death. In materialistic/darwinistic context relationships are just extended egotism. I think that the only thing that makes life worth it, is at the end ethics and related to that personal growth as a human being. Sure those are related to relationships as no human exists by himself and for himself.  But this "developing positive relationships with othes" is like a fear of being alone. As if your life would be more valuable when you more friends.


Edited by GhostBuster, 13 March 2015 - 12:54 PM.

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#3 bigbadwooof

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 12:52 PM

Interesting stuff to contemplate, but I think you're getting ahead of yourself. People have made predictions about future technologies and timelines for advancements to be acheived for quite some time now, and things generally don't pan out the way we expect them to. I was supposed to have my flying skateboard from the back to the future movie several years ago, etc.

 

I personally choose to spend my time contemplating the woes of today, rather than the very very distant woes of tomorrow, that I most likely will not be around to partake of anyway. I am 26 years old, and the prospect of living 200+ years sounds amazing on some levels. There are so many things I want to learn, and do, and see! However, I do not plan my future around these fantastic ideas, and I don't think we can pretend to know what it would be like to live for so long.

 

I find the prospect of maintaining my general vitality til I am in my 80's a nice goal to set for now, and once we start seeing some advancements, I'll incorporate those into my projected lifespan. Seeing is believing, in other words. This is not to say that I don't advocate for the SENS foundation, but I don't worry about the problems of a 200 year old any more than I worry about those of a billionaire.

 

Nice read, though, ty! :)



#4 bigbadwooof

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 01:06 PM

This sounds like mystifying relationships, as if  they were bottomless in their deepfullness. The way I see them, the deepier you get, the more dirt you see. People are quite selfish, borderline psychopaths or protopsychopaths. I guess there is a distant possible that human relationship are "deep" in a condition that spiritual reality exist. But in that case you don't need to worry about death. In materialistic/darwinistic context relationships are just extended egotism. I think that the only thing that makes life worth it, is at the end ethics and related to that personal growth as a human being. Sure those are related to relationships as no human exists by himself and for himself.  But this "developing positive relationships with othes" is like a fear of being alone. As if your life would be more valuable when you more friends.

 

I believe that happiness is directly related to the relationships one has with the people around them. We are social animals. I am an atheist, but I don't deny the 'spiritual' (loose definition of the word) qualities of life. You can't reduce human consciousness down to such shallow parameters. I don't believe in the supernatural, but it is quite clear that thoughts transcend matter. and the self is not entirely a physical construct, but a compilation of all of those extraphysical, immaterial thought processes developed through experiences, learning, and interaction. I believe that as time goes on, people become more complex and their thoughts are often refined (not always), which makes for relationships of a greater depth than we have experienced. It is also apparent to me that, given a long enough timeline, people's childish sociopathic qualities are likely to wither away, as the revelations develop which demonstrate that there really isn't anything fullfilling or rewarding in selfishness.


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#5 niner

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 03:59 AM

I find the prospect of maintaining my general vitality til I am in my 80's a nice goal to set for now, and once we start seeing some advancements, I'll incorporate those into my projected lifespan.

 

Funny you should mention that.  That used to be my goal too.  80 seems impossibly far away when you're 26, but in your fifties, you might start asking yourself if you really want to become bedridden, incontinent, and demented in 20 or 30 years.  The guy that Reason quoted in his post sounds like a puzzled navel-gazer.

 

Since you're planning on incorporating advances as they occur, you probably have a good shot at never being bedridden, incontinent, and demented.  Keep your fingers crossed (and/or support SENS).



#6 Brett Black

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 11:07 AM

Love, joy, friendship, discovery, beauty, amusement, amazement, pleasure, excitement, accomplishment, learning, relaxation, surprise, development, creation, comfort, novelty, bliss....just for a start.

How can people even entertain the idea that they need to actively search for value in life?

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#7 Brett Black

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 11:55 AM

The way I see them, the deepier you get, the more dirt you see. People are quite selfish, borderline psychopaths or protopsychopaths. I guess there is a distant possible that human relationship are "deep" in a condition that spiritual reality exist. But in that case you don't need to worry about death. In materialistic/darwinistic context relationships are just extended egotism.


I find this sad and it's not how I perceive things. The awareness and understanding that others are conscious feeling beings, which is a hallmark of humans, can and often (usually?) does fundamentally meld with an extremely deep-running empathy and compassion, all of which can be attributed to results of Darwinian evolution. Many humans have even developed genuine strong empathy and compassion for non-human animals. I wonder if you may be projecting your own personal way of relating to people, or maybe you have had the misfortune of mainly experiencing the types of people you describe.

Edited by Brett Black, 14 March 2015 - 12:04 PM.


#8 ceridwen

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 01:04 PM

Unfortunately I am in my 50s and suddenly staring those health conditions in the face
Coming SOON unless there is a miracle

#9 bigbadwooof

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 01:00 PM

 

I find the prospect of maintaining my general vitality til I am in my 80's a nice goal to set for now, and once we start seeing some advancements, I'll incorporate those into my projected lifespan.

 

Funny you should mention that.  That used to be my goal too.  80 seems impossibly far away when you're 26, but in your fifties, you might start asking yourself if you really want to become bedridden, incontinent, and demented in 20 or 30 years.  The guy that Reason quoted in his post sounds like a puzzled navel-gazer.

 

Since you're planning on incorporating advances as they occur, you probably have a good shot at never being bedridden, incontinent, and demented.  Keep your fingers crossed (and/or support SENS).

 

 

I believe I may have recently contracted Hep C, so I'm not going to get ahead of myself lol. There is a cure now, but it is $80,000 here in the land of the free. I can go to India and get it for $300, I think, but I am not a man of great means. I will get my hands on it, but I have a feeling that this will not be the only instance in which a desirable pharmaceutical or procedure will be prohibitively expensive.

 

Many friends I have made in my life have been significantly older than myself. It is sad for me to see them consider such things also. I have learned that it is best not to get your hopes up about things until they actually happen, but dreams are not without warrant either. I intend to contribute to SENS when I am in a position to do so!
 



#10 bigbadwooof

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 01:04 PM

Love, joy, friendship, discovery, beauty, amusement, amazement, pleasure, excitement, accomplishment, learning, relaxation, surprise, development, creation, comfort, novelty, bliss....just for a start.

How can people even entertain the idea that they need to actively search for value in life?

 

How could you put this so planely, yet more perfectly than any paragraph on this page! lol! Well said, sir. I think that if you allow negativity, cynicism, and pesimism to overwhelm your spirit, these things are harder to remember.



#11 GhostBuster

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 05:41 PM

 

The way I see them, the deepier you get, the more dirt you see. People are quite selfish, borderline psychopaths or protopsychopaths. I guess there is a distant possible that human relationship are "deep" in a condition that spiritual reality exist. But in that case you don't need to worry about death. In materialistic/darwinistic context relationships are just extended egotism.


I find this sad and it's not how I perceive things. The awareness and understanding that others are conscious feeling beings, which is a hallmark of humans, can and often (usually?) does fundamentally meld with an extremely deep-running empathy and compassion, all of which can be attributed to results of Darwinian evolution. Many humans have even developed genuine strong empathy and compassion for non-human animals. I wonder if you may be projecting your own personal way of relating to people, or maybe you have had the misfortune of mainly experiencing the types of people you describe.

 

Yeah, and I could find it sad how you perceive things. But I guess this is not a contest of being the most negative or positive etc. The funny thing about (for example) love is that you pick up something (like "family", "friends") that you value more than anything else. The rest is more or less vain. In ethical terms this (kind of love) is evil. People who don't care about other people are many times animal lovers. It's not that liking animals is a sign humanity, practically in most cases quite the contrary. There is very little true empathy in the world that extends beyond your "loved ones" (- > "personal relationships") and your feel good morality, and too much sugar coated empathy (which probably originates from narcissism).  I suppose one has to be either very idealistic, unempathic (extroverted), a fool or a deluded if one cannot see human selfisness. Anybody with an open mind and little bit of sensitivity can see it.


Edited by GhostBuster, 15 March 2015 - 05:44 PM.

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#12 bigbadwooof

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 02:48 PM

 

 

The way I see them, the deepier you get, the more dirt you see. People are quite selfish, borderline psychopaths or protopsychopaths. I guess there is a distant possible that human relationship are "deep" in a condition that spiritual reality exist. But in that case you don't need to worry about death. In materialistic/darwinistic context relationships are just extended egotism.


I find this sad and it's not how I perceive things. The awareness and understanding that others are conscious feeling beings, which is a hallmark of humans, can and often (usually?) does fundamentally meld with an extremely deep-running empathy and compassion, all of which can be attributed to results of Darwinian evolution. Many humans have even developed genuine strong empathy and compassion for non-human animals. I wonder if you may be projecting your own personal way of relating to people, or maybe you have had the misfortune of mainly experiencing the types of people you describe.

 

Yeah, and I could find it sad how you perceive things. But I guess this is not a contest of being the most negative or positive etc. The funny thing about (for example) love is that you pick up something (like "family", "friends") that you value more than anything else. The rest is more or less vain. In ethical terms this (kind of love) is evil. People who don't care about other people are many times animal lovers. It's not that liking animals is a sign humanity, practically in most cases quite the contrary. There is very little true empathy in the world that extends beyond your "loved ones" (- > "personal relationships") and your feel good morality, and too much sugar coated empathy (which probably originates from narcissism).  I suppose one has to be either very idealistic, unempathic (extroverted), a fool or a deluded if one cannot see human selfisness. Anybody with an open mind and little bit of sensitivity can see it.

 

Human selfishness is apparent everytime I see politicians ignore the interests of the people in favor of corporate sponsorship. All you have to do is turn on your tv to see it, even if politics isn't your thing, turn on the Kardashians, or some other nonsense reality show.

 

I think if it were possible to extend life indefinitely, selfishness might be less apparent, as people wouldn't be in such a hurry to get to the enjoyable part of life. Everyone would have all the time in the world. If time is money, we'd all be very wealthy :)


 


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